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BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?

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The Length 26 Feb 07 - 03:56 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 07 - 04:03 PM
Bill D 26 Feb 07 - 04:12 PM
Peace 26 Feb 07 - 04:15 PM
Peace 26 Feb 07 - 04:18 PM
Bill D 26 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM
Peace 26 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM
autolycus 26 Feb 07 - 05:43 PM
bubblyrat 26 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM
Peace 26 Feb 07 - 06:06 PM
John O'L 26 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM
robomatic 26 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 07 - 06:33 PM
bubblyrat 26 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM
Peace 26 Feb 07 - 07:03 PM
The Length 26 Feb 07 - 07:04 PM
bobad 26 Feb 07 - 07:19 PM
The Length 26 Feb 07 - 07:25 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 07 - 07:54 PM
The Length 26 Feb 07 - 08:03 PM
Wolfgang 27 Feb 07 - 06:53 AM
Bunnahabhain 27 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM
Bobert 27 Feb 07 - 10:18 AM
Wolfgang 27 Feb 07 - 11:22 AM
Bobert 27 Feb 07 - 11:50 AM
dianavan 27 Feb 07 - 12:37 PM
The Length 27 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM
dianavan 27 Feb 07 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Dickey 28 Feb 07 - 12:19 AM
Jim Lad 28 Feb 07 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Feb 07 - 05:45 AM
Donuel 28 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Dickey 28 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM
The Length 28 Feb 07 - 12:57 PM
Bobert 28 Feb 07 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Dickey 28 Feb 07 - 09:49 PM
Peace 28 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM
dianavan 01 Mar 07 - 12:45 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Mar 07 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 07 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Dickey 01 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM
Bobert 01 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Dickey 02 Mar 07 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Dickey 03 Mar 07 - 09:57 AM
Bobert 03 Mar 07 - 12:33 PM
Bobert 03 Mar 07 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Dickey 03 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 09:26 PM
Bobert 03 Mar 07 - 09:41 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Bobert 03 Mar 07 - 11:38 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 11:40 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 11:42 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 11:43 PM
Peace 03 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM
Alec 04 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 11:33 AM
Alec 04 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Dickey 04 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Dickey 04 Mar 07 - 01:40 PM
Alec 04 Mar 07 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Dickey 04 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM
Stringsinger 04 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM
Bobert 04 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM
Peace 04 Mar 07 - 06:29 PM
The Length 04 Mar 07 - 08:28 PM
bobad 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM
The Length 04 Mar 07 - 08:35 PM
bobad 04 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM
Don Firth 04 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM
Dickey 05 Mar 07 - 01:39 AM
Alec 05 Mar 07 - 02:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 07 - 04:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 07 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Mar 07 - 06:49 AM
Dickey 05 Mar 07 - 04:29 PM
Peace 05 Mar 07 - 04:38 PM
Peace 05 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM
Peace 05 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM
Peace 05 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM
Dickey 06 Mar 07 - 02:38 AM
Dickey 07 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM
Alec 07 Mar 07 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Cats 07 Mar 07 - 08:54 AM
Jean(eanjay) 07 Mar 07 - 08:57 AM
Dickey 07 Mar 07 - 02:38 PM
Jean(eanjay) 07 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM
Dickey 07 Mar 07 - 10:35 PM
Bobert 08 Mar 07 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,saulgoldie 08 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM
Jean(eanjay) 08 Mar 07 - 02:28 PM
Dickey 08 Mar 07 - 03:47 PM
Jean(eanjay) 08 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM
Jean(eanjay) 08 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM
Bobert 08 Mar 07 - 05:29 PM
Bobert 08 Mar 07 - 06:36 PM
Dickey 08 Mar 07 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 08 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM
Dickey 09 Mar 07 - 12:09 AM
Bobert 09 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 07 - 12:09 PM
Bobert 09 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM
Dickey 09 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM
Bobert 09 Mar 07 - 06:50 PM
Naemanson 09 Mar 07 - 06:50 PM
Bobert 09 Mar 07 - 07:31 PM
Dickey 10 Mar 07 - 12:44 AM
semi-submersible 10 Mar 07 - 02:48 AM
Wolfgang 12 Mar 07 - 11:30 AM
Dickey 12 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM

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Subject: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:56 PM

Do the Green Party or Friends of the Earth attend rallies in their cars or buses polluting the atmosphere ?

Do Animal Rights protesters not accept medication if it was tested on animals ?

Are anti-Smoking groups willing to pay 8 pence extra a day if the government ban the sale of cigarettes ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:03 PM

Yes, we Greens do drive cars...

Consult yer local PETA chapter for answer to question 2...

Given the the costs to society from lost production from the effects of smokin' from health problems and cost thereof no one would have to pay 8 cents a day if no one smoked... Quite the opposite... My insurance premiums are higher because of the added health costs that smokers dump in insurance companies... My taxes are higher for the same reason...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:12 PM

Do folks who don't have opinions of their own start threads with rhetorical questions?

(The answers to ALL such questions is "sometimes".)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:15 PM

That prompts an interesting aside--which I think this thread deserves.

"(The answers to ALL such questions is "sometimes".)"

Is it always sometimes, or sometimes sometimes? (OK. So some of the 1960s has stayed with me, but give it to me straight, doctor, I can TAKE it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:18 PM

And not having closed that parenthesis--or should it be those parentheses, and if it is those parentheses, then why is there only one?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

Logically speaking, it is 'always sometimes'. "Sometimes sometimes" would be a tautology.

Deponent messeth not with the vagaries of parentheses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM

tautology: future preterite of the verb 'to taught'

Deponeth: code for a bus locker in Amsterdam

messeth: if you dont hit the bullseye, you messeth

vagaries: private parts

Bill, it's taken you years, but I'm finally getting the hang of this stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:43 PM

Do conservatives and patriots stick to buying stuff made in their own country?






      Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM

The only people who are truly "Green " are the Amish, and others like them. Everyone else is just a hypocrite. I will take that back if the Greens de-commission Rainbow Warrior,or whatever their current warship is called, & start using a sailing ship ( with no auxiliary engine ) !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:06 PM

Rainbow Warrior: Greenpeace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

If you're going to listen to anyone's advice, the most reliable advisor will be a hypocrite. At least you can be sure they know what the're talking about, you can be reasonable certain they are being fair dinkum with you.

The pedantically(?) correct always make me uneasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM

There are several 'green' vehicles which are being developed to godspeed the ecology:

Hybrid Conestoga: Not only has a sail, but a windmill and a generator. The windmill charges a battery. If you are becalmed or unable to 'tack', you hook the battery up to turn the mill and generate wind to direct into the sail.

Solar Sells!: Any kind of sun at all will charge this baby. comes with direct drive DC motors which move as long as there's power, but recover the power as long as they are moving.

Hydropower: A garden hose fills a tank of water above the car. Water can drive vehicle off compressed air in the tank, when the air is gone, water can drop past driver wheel. If you do not have far to drive, you can grind cornmeal as you go!

Balloon power reaction engine: Fill a large balloon with compressed air. Point nozzle to the rear and valve open. For more power, use compressed hydrogen and a match...Has the advantage that pretty much any gas can be vented, also expired fire extinguishers and surplus JATO units from the army-navy.

In theoretical development: Vehicle motion through tidal forces. So far we can only get the vehicle to move with the tides (in theory)More to come...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:33 PM

What Peace said, rat-ster...

Green Party and Greenpeace ain't the same organization...

And no axillery engine??? I know my jibs from my mains and that is dumb... There are many ports that just cannot be navigatted by sail power only... Especially where you have a narrow and busy channel...

But nevermind that... I know you were just tryin' to have some fun pickin' on folks who are out there puttin' it on the line for their pro-human, pro-earth values... Why you think that's okay is way beyond me but, hey, I respect yer right to make a fool of yerself as long as no one, other than you, gets hurt...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM

If they really had pro-human,pro-Earth values ,they"d be doing a lot more for the planet than they are now,and in a less polluting way !!
And whilst you may well know your jibs from your mains,I submit that your nautical history is somewhat lacking !! For hundreds of years, quite large ships,like Lord Nelson"s HMS Victory,or USS Constitution, were able to work in and out of restricted harbours with narrow channels very successfully,without the aid of auxiliary engines or tugs.-- Of course, very few people could do that today,as the skill has been lost----so let the Greens, or Greenpeace, or the jolly Green giant,or whoever thinks that their mad policies will change the world,carry on driving their cars,flying to conferences, or steaming around the oceans in their mechanically inefficient diesel-powered ships until Doomsday !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:03 PM

You seem to have lots of pent-up energy. What the hell do you DO with it all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:04 PM

20 Cigarettes in the UK cost 17 pence to produce. Over the counter you pay up to £5.20. The balance is government taxation. If smokers in UK require hospitalization due to smoking related illnesses think they paid for their bed Bob, don't you ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:19 PM

""Tobacco not only kills people, it also saps national treasuries," says the World Health Organisation.

It believes that the cost of smoking-related health care far outweighs the other financial benefits.

Indeed, the World Bank says tobacco actually results in a global net loss of US $200bn per year. About one third of these losses are suffered in the developing world. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/459157.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:25 PM

Right bob what about the lard arses we see walking around our streets every day, what's your views on them ? Just "big happy personalities".Any idea what the cost the health service ? please be honest in your reply about what the government creams off smokers per year. It no way falls short of treating smoking related conditions.
Do you drive an electric car ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:54 PM

Well, yeah, rat-ster... But when these great sailin' ships were out an' about the high seas there really weren't too many other folks out there... Unfotunately, tyhese are different times and channels leadin' into major ports are clogged with traffic an' as much as I hate it, sometimes yer coming into port with a dozen folks in front of you and another dozen behinst you and as many folks in a 100 foot channel going out... That, my friend, is reality of sailin' these days...

But I agree with you all the way that mnakind, myself included, can and needs to do more to to respect mankind and the planet... Yeah, we drive fuel efficent vehicles, we farm organic, we recycle, we use as little electricity as we can but there's always more we can do... My goal for '08 is wind power... I'm allrady bookmarking websites...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:03 PM

Well shows you are a man of your word, respect is given


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:53 AM

My insurance premiums are higher because of the added health costs that smokers dump in insurance companies (Bobert)

That's simply not true. Smokers are cheaper for the insurance companies because they die (on the average) at a younger age without all these money consuming diseases of old age.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM

I tried to say that last night, Wolfgang. It appears my post got lost somewhere...

Many of people round here seem to mis-understand the viewpoint of the Various Green Parties.
They generally accept that, for example, people will want to use cars. The Greens want to see us on public transport where it is practical, and if we have to drive, in a small car, doing 50+ Miles to the Gallon, and sharing it if possible.

It's not telling people to put on a hair shirt, it's telling them to put on a shirt if they're cold, not turn up the heating!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:18 AM

Health insurance, Wolfy, health ionsurance... That's the real bite in the arse... Over $800 a mont fir me and the P-Vine and that's with a $2000 deductible for each of us...

A lung cancer patient will use up well over $100,000 in uinsurance and depending on how long they survive upwards of a half a milllion buck$...

This is where we non smokers are subsidizing the smokers... Yeah, they may pay more but in the big sceme of things they draw more money outta the pool... That's the way insurance works in general... The lower risk folks end up carrying the higher risk folks on their backs...

Now for your argument that the healthy people end up dieing of money consuming deseases of old age, that isn't true... Most people die of old age and not of money consuming desaeses... That is the fact... And most people pay into medigap policies up until they die of old age meaning that healthy people who event5ually die of old age continue to pay to cover higher risk folks right up until their deaths...

Contact the American Cancer Society and they will be nore than happy to furnish you with plenty of stuff that will debunk the common misunderstanding about the costs of lung cancer to our country... And it goes well beyond just medical costs alone...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:22 AM

Most studies just calculate the costs of treating a disease. This way of calculating cannot find anything else but higher costs by smoking.

Studies calculating all the positive and negative costs (dying at an age when most people are still healthy) often come to different conclusions.

government expenditure and health promotion goals often conflict so that, paradoxically, government may be best able to protect its financial health by promoting lifestyles that lead to reduced longevity.
is how Australian doctors have described this paradox which is often not understood.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:50 AM

Well, yeah... From a purely economical aspect, governments would love to see every drop dead the day after they retire... No argument there, at all...

But folks such as the good folks at the American Cancer Society have a different perspective that isn't based on the perfect model of not only the gov't but also employers of diein' either on the assmebly line or the day after retiring...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:37 PM

length - Your post shows that you have never seriously considered doing your part to reduce pollution. You want to diss others to justify your own inaction.

A bus is a perfectly acceptable form of transportation since it transports many more people than a single occupancy vehicle. Public transportation is encouraged as a practical solution to inner city congestion and pollution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

Not the buses I drive behind ! There was a sunflower seed eater on our local television news on Monday evening and he went on and on about the government putting up road tax and raising the duty on petrol and diesel and having a dig at drivers of fourwheel drives.
Later a reporter exposed him for driving to a demo all alone and passing the homes of six other scroungers and didn't stick them in the back seat. By the way, his 1985 Astra doesn't run on leadfree petrol. Opps !!!!!!!!

Enjoy your home made cereal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 11:52 PM

Get off on your sugar pops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:19 AM

Bobert can move to Canada. They take anybody.

How was that per capita poverty rate in the US figured Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:34 AM

Not convinced about the connection between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. That would demand a great leap of faith. Faith in a system which has aggressively raised funds for as long as I can remember and has made not nearly the progress that it should.
Seems too convenient, after all this time to just carry on blaming smokers and never have to answer for their own poor performance in a field that continues to make a lot of people wealthy.
Time the researchers were paid for results.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:45 AM

"A bus is a perfectly acceptable form of transportation since it transports many more people than a single occupancy vehicle. Public transportation is encouraged as a practical solution to inner city congestion and pollution."

I totally agree with all of this. Trouble is that the bus I travelled on yesterday was not very nice. The aisles were knee deep in litter, most of the seats looked like they'd been vomitted on (or soaked with other forms of human bodily fluid which had then been allowed to dry on) and some cretin at the back insisted on serenading us all with rap 'music' played over his mobile phone. Sometimes I catch myself hoping that the threatened eco-catastrophe comes sooner rather than later!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM

Boy Oh boy am I ever in agreement with the Length (thread starter)

Forget climate change, forget extinctions, forget rising oceans, forget Gulf stream mutations FORGET WIERD STORMS... What is really important is to attack everyone who want to do something about it. Don't these people know there is no such thing as global warming or record CO2 levels, it is only a normal solar cycle we have yet to fully understand.

WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT is to denigrate, intimidate, castigate and besmearch anyone who dares become a spokesperson for so called global warming. These people act as if the enviorment belongs to them. Well it doesn't. It belongs to the big boys on Wall street and hedge fund owners who keep our world chugging along with petroleum by the tanker full.

We should go to great "lengths" to smear all enviormentalist whackos as hypocrits, liars and gold diggers.

If they use electricity - they should shut up or face the consequences of our intelligent design, family value, pro war wrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

The trouble with a worthy cause, like environmentalism, is that 'Holy Joes' have a tendency to jump on the bandwagon. People, who 10 years ago knew nothing about the environment (and probably still don't) are now pontificating about what we should all eat, drink, drive etc. It's this smug pontificating that gives people like 'Length' an opening because he/she is too stupid and ignorant to tell the difference between a 'Holier-than-thou-preacher' and someone who knows what they're talking about.

I do hope that the eco-catastrophe, when it comes (and it surely will), will get both the 'Holy Joes' and 'Length' as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

"It belongs to the big boys on Wall street and hedge fund owners who keep our world chugging along with petroleum by the tanker full."

I don't see how reduced energy consumption will hurt wall street at all. In fact it gives it a boost when the price of oil goes down.

Weather global warming exists or not, it behooves all of us to use compact flourescents, drive less, drive more fuel efficient vehicles, recycle, turn the heat down and the AC up etc. It is not only good for the environment, it is good for our pocketbooks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:57 PM

Relly admired you for making that trip to the bottle bank Shimrod. Clearly someone doing their bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:44 PM

Well, Dickey, 1st of all, if I leave the US I think it will be for Austraila... I hate snow...

Second, if yer curious how per capita poverty you might want to contact yer representative or someone at the Labor Department... It's prolly a very complicated formula... Alll I know is that threshold must be very low 'cause ain't no familee of f gonna make it on $12,000 a year 'er whatever it is now...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:49 PM

I have no Idea of who to ask Bobert, that's why I am asking you.

Just what is that poverty line now?

The poverty rate in the United States is one of the highest among the post-industrialized developed world. It is, however, important to note that America's poor most commonly have adequate food, clothing and shelter. For example, of those beneath the federal poverty, 46% of them own their own home with an average of three bedrooms. source

The number of people below the poverty line in the UK is higher, 17% vs 12%. How many if them have their own 3 bedroom house?

AN OVERVIEW OF WELFARE SPENDING

Official poverty measurements also overlook facts about the daily lives of poor families. Robert Rector says that America's poor do not live lavishly, but few households are destitute. The average "poor" American lives in a larger house or apartment, is more likely to own a car and is more likely to have basic amenities such as an indoor toilet than the average resident of Western Europe.

    * 53 percent of poor households have air conditioning.

    * 91 percent own a color TV and 29 percent own two or more.

    * 64 percent own a car and 14 percent own two or more.

    * 56 percent own a microwave oven.

    * 40 percent own their home, with 71,000 owning homes worth more than $300,000.

Better Off Than Europeans, Japanese
The average "poor" American lives in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

"Poor" Americans consume three times as much meat each year and are 40 percent more likely to own a car than the average Japanese. And the average Japanese is 22 times more likely to live without an indoor flush toilet than is a poor American.

The Census Bureau counts as "poor" anyone with "cash income" less than the official poverty threshold, which was $12,675 for a family of four in 1989. The Census completely disregards assets owned by the "poor," and does not even count much of what, in fact, is income. This is clear from the Census's own data: low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census. If this is true, then the poor somehow are getting $0.94 in additional income above every $1.00 counted by the Census. Indeed, the gap between spending and the Census's count of the income of the "poor" has grown larger year by year till, now, the Census measurement of the income of poor persons no longer has any bearing on economic reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM

"Bobert can move to Canada. They take anybody."

You seem to think that is a bad thing, Dickey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:45 AM

"This is clear from the Census's own data: low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census."

They probably have a very hefty credit card debt.

"While in any given year 12 to 14 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods, Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal "other" on the fringes of society." - Micheal Zweig, What's Class Got to do With It, American Society in the Twenty-first Century, 2004

Emphasis on working class.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:17 AM

"Relly (sic) admired you for making that trip to the bottle bank Shimrod. Clearly someone doing their bit."

Don't need to take trips to the bottle bank, 'Length' - the local council provides me with a bin.

Anyway, recycling, windmills etc., etc., are only of limited use. What is destroying 'The Planet' (for which read the habitats contemporary species including humans) is the attitude which says that the resources of the earth are infinite and can go on being consumed at an accelerating rate with no consequences. I can't see that that attitude is going to change anytime soon - so, basically, we're f..ked! You might as well go on behaving like a selfish arsehole, 'Length'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:31 AM

I am, unfortunately, a smoker. I recently retire after thity years employment. During that time I missed a total of 22 working days and left over 400 hunfred days in the "sick" bank. I am not bragging but I do believe that many insurance companies, though they charge smokers more, realize that smokers are not the biggest users fo emplyee sick plans. When I was a union negotiator our rates (collectively) were always very high because our bargaining group had a very high percentage of the highest percentage users of sick time..single parent females between the ages of 25 and 40. Go figure. This statistic remained constant with all insurances schemes with whom we negotiated. Smokers were eigth on the list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM

Ignoring Billions of Dollars
A key reason that the Census undercounts the financial resources of the "poor" is that, remarkably, it ignores nearly all welfare spending when calculating the "incomes" of persons in poverty. Thus, as far as the Bureau is concerned, billions of dollars in in-kind benefits to poor Americans have no effect on their incomes. Out of $184 billion in welfare spending, the Census counts only $27 billion as income for poor persons. The bulk of the welfare system, including entire programs that provide non-cash aid to the poor, like food stamps, public housing, and Medicaid, is completely ignored in the Census Bureau's calculations of the living standards of the "poor." The missing welfare spending that is excluded from the Census Bureau poverty reports comes to $158 billion, or over $11,120 for every "poor" U.S. household.

The Census Bureau's poverty reports should be replaced by a new survey that counts income and assets accurately. With accurate counting, the number of poor persons would be shown to be only a small fraction of the Census Bureau's current estimate of 31.8 million.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

Nah, Dickey...

I believe that there weould be an increse in the poverty levels if everythinh was redefined...

Poverty is a relative term becuase of regional differences in the cost of living... In the D.C. area you have folks makin' twice the income of the pverty line yet when you factor in the #1300 a month minimum for an apartment you find that it takes a greater gross monthly income then is the poverty line for most families of 4...

Here' some simple math...

Gross income to net $1300 is rough ly $1600 a month = $19,200 a year gross... Now this is way over the poverty line yet someone makin' $19,200 a year will have to shell out their entire income just for rent???

Jus' give that some thought...

As fir TV's, etc... They are a dime a dozen... People give perfectly good ones away so it's no wonder that such a high percentage of people have them... Microwaves??? Same... Cars??? Same...

Oh, how my college Stats 201 teacher was so right when she pointed out that stats can be so grossly manipulated as to prove anything that anyone wants to prove... This was just before she proved that 1 = 2...

So folks who like to throw out a bunch of stats make the red light go off in my head that says "This person uis trying to bamboozle you, Bobert..."

Notice that over the years I have been reluctant to use polls and have only recently accepted the Bush 60% disapproval ratings and that has been because there have been so many polls that seem to indicate that it's somewhere around that...

But the percentage of TV's??? Give me a break...

If you want to talk about poverty, come to D.C. and I'll take you around and let you see for yerselves...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 01:24 AM

Bobert:

If you don't beleive in stats, why do you bandy them about like evidence of something?

"I'd have to say that the Repubs control about 80% of all media right now... No, the Repub's can't see it that way because they only focus on the 20% that does not put a halo over Bush's head"

"Sure, we may have the best to offer but guess what? 90% of out people either can't afford it or their insurance companies won't pay for it."

"this United States, which boasts all this wealth, hides the "fact" that it also has the highest per capita poverty rate of any western, industrialized developed country"

I notice you are very careful to say Western to avoid including the UK which has 17% VS 12%.

It wasn't until the public opinion polls reached 60% saying the Iraq war was not worth fighting that Russert, the ever political journalist, stepped back from Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 09:57 AM

Bobert slinks back into the bushes in search of another target for a stink bomb attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:33 PM

No, not really, Dickey...

You'll notice that I'm not quotin' some blog here... All these statements where I've thrown pwercentages into the mix are done as "generalized statements"... You know, like the 80% and the 90% which to almost any casual reader who isn't into just playin' "ah-hah gottcha" would realize weren't actual percentages but a little "poetic license", something that most folk who do a lot of writtin' use from time to time...

If you don't know the difference then maybe youyou are too literal a person which, if that is the case, would make it very difficult for you to appreciate much more than numbers and no words...

Now, as fir yer poverty questions... If you'd like to start a thread about poverty in the US I'll be more than happy to participate in it... It's not a topic that I know nuthin' about seein' as the first half of my working life was with social programs (GED jail house teacher, drug rehab counselor and finally a social worker in the Richmond wlfare department...

But if you do start a thread, please don't confuse the fact that sometimes I don't get right back to ya as "slinkin' off in the bushes"... I still work full time plus have a farm to run and am in the middle of building a new house so, unlike you and other who have the luxary of livin' in fron of yer compudders, I'm a very busy person... Throw dial up into the mix an', hey, sometimes it will take some time fir me get back to ya'...

Lastly, the 60% disapproval rate, agian isn't exactly 60% in all polls... It's 57% in some 62% in others and like all polls, tends to have peeks and valleys... But the bottom line is that Bush isn't a very popular president and I don't hink that can be refuted...

Now I'll "slink back" to the Kabuta and finish gettin' my half mile drive way graded so I can get a big truck full of windows and doors up it on Monday morning...

...slinkin' off...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:44 PM

Ahhh, not to mention a fairly busy perfroming schedule...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM

Bobert:

Your statement was that the US poverty line is higher than any developed country in the west.

Whom are you quoting and how was it determined?

On the surface it seems like a cheap shot using "facts" that you really don't believe and don't know to be correct but don't mind repeating for the sake of making your own country "look" bad.

Evidently you are not too busy to blurt out some facts without the personal integrity to substantiate them while denying the validity of other's facts with a non fact like "cars and TVs are a dime a dozen". I haven't seen any of those lately.

And I am a literal person. To me, words do mean something. Slogans, jokes, metaphors, rhetoric, exaggerations and fantasy do not impress me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 09:26 PM

"The number of people below the official poverty thresholds numbered 35.9 million in 2003, or 1.3 million more than in 2002, for a 2003 poverty rate of 12.5 percent. Although up from 2002, this rate is below the average of the 1980s and 1990s.

The poverty rate and number of families in poverty increased from 9.6 percent and 7.2 million in 2002 to 10.0 percent and 7.6 million in 2003. The corresponding numbers for unrelated individuals in poverty in 2003 were 20.4 percent and 9.7 million (not different from 2002).

As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393."

Those figures are from 2004. This site is the source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 09:41 PM

Like I said, Dickey, you want to talk poverty then start another thread an' I'll find it...

...BTW, there's alot about poverty that ain't in Statistics 201...

... so start the thread, take yer best shot at settin' the bar an' I'll be along in due time...

Meanwhile, if all you want to do is highjack someone elses thread then leave me out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 10:33 PM

"RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?"

In answer to this, NO. It is a Party for goodness sake. A Party can't drive a car. It can drive a nail, a golf ball, a person nuts, but NOT a car.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:38 PM

You brought up the statistcs in another thread that didn't have anything to do with poverty.

I am talking about reality 101. I want to know if this poverty line is figured the same for all countries of which the US is the lowest.

That $1300 per month apartment you mentioned is the average in DC, not the minimum. That covers from the Rock Creek Park down to $575 in South East.

Those income numbers Peace quoted were by the Census Bureau and do not include any benefits. "low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census"

I would like to know why The average "poor" American is considered to live in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

Something does not jive.

Posted by the person who usually posts as Dickey.
He'd better stick to a consistent user name. Impersonating another Mudcatter is a definite violation of the rules.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:40 PM

Who the fuck are YOU and who the fuck are you talking to and why do you have so much trouble getting your fucking name straight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM

Why do you think it OK to misuse Bobert's name, asshole?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:42 PM

And address that shit on the appropriate thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:43 PM

Hey. Could one of you clones let Dickey know that it is not right OR accepted to take and use other people's names when he guest posts? Fawk a dawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Which turkey out there is 'controlling and keeping a watchful eye' on Guest posts? I'll brb as Guest and the fuckin' games can begin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, Brucie (Peace) fir lettin' folks know that the above post by "GUEST, Bobert" ain't mine...

I ain't too sure whoes it is but the writing style is very much similar to someone who has postyed here and other places an' I don't think it would take a rocket surgeon to figure out who that person is...

And, yes, we Greens drive cars... We have electricty... indoor plumbing, etc... I know... Amazing!!!

Bobert (not GUEST, Bobert)

p.s. btw, I'm going to PM Joe Offer about the use of my name in this manner...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM

Two questions.1) How accurate a comparison can be made between 2 countries when,as is the case here,seperate performance indicators are used for each?
2)When,by whom,and on what criteria was it decided that the U.K. did not qualify as a Western,Industrialised developed country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:33 AM

Thank you, Alec... I never said the UK wasn't a "western, industrialized developed country" nor would I however...

...some folks here just like to invent things that they wished you'd said and then argue with those invented words???

Hey, I don't get it either... It's one thing to talk with yerself but quite another to argue with other's invented arguments... I think it would take a psychiatrist to figure that one out 'cause there certainly ain't much logic to it...

Bobert (not GUEST, Bobert, whoever that is...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

Thanks Bobert.I knew you didn't say that.Just thought the other guy might like to clarify that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM

Not to worry, Alac... The other guy will explain it with yet another Bushite "cut 'n paste" 'er maybe like he's done on another thread, a 6 year old obscure article on stuff that happened a couple decades ago????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, part #7648???

What am I missin' an...

...beam me up, Scotty...

Bobert (still not GUEST, Bobert...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM

Sorry Bobert but:

You brought up the statistcs in another thread that didn't have anything to do with poverty.

I am talking about reality 101. I want to know if this poverty line is figured the same for all countries of which the US is the lowest.

That $1300 per month apartment you mentioned is the average in DC, not the minimum. That covers from the Rock Creek Park down to $575 in South East.

Those income numbers Peace quoted were by the Census Bureau and do not include any benefits. "low income persons spend $1.94 for every $1.00 in "income" reported by the Census"

I would like to know why The average "poor" American is considered to live in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

Something does not jive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:09 PM

It's one thing to casually throw something into a post, yet quite another to highjack a thread by changing the entire discussion...

Understand???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:40 PM

I guess that answer is as good as any you have given. If you think another thread is required go ahead.

Make sure it begins with Well well well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 02:53 PM

I realise it might be considered somewhat impertinent for me to be asking a supplementary question whilst the answer to my two previous questions are (presumably) still gestating,but...
A lot has been said about the "average" American,the "average" European & the "average" Japanese,however,at no point is it specified whether it is mean,mode or median average which is being referred to.
Clearly this information is necessary if the figures quoted are to have any meaning.
Could somebody please clarify?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM

Bobert: "a discussion on why America has such a high number of folks livin' like folks in Third World countries is LONG OVERDUE"

How many Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM

Way too many fir this ol' hillbilly to count 'um all... Some live right here in Page County, Va...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM

Green Party activists are sensitive to the problems such as this that they encounter. Whenever possible, they go for the best alternative to pollution, gas-guzzling cars and many of them (us) ride bikes. Sometimes groups like GreenPeace go on the line to counter the Corporate oppressors who are destroying our environment. They may break the law but remember that abolitionists also broke the law in their time.

There are so many medications out there that are unecessary. They are made for the profit of the drug companies and not for the benefit of the afflicted. Animals have been killed for not very good reasons over the years.

If there was an anti-smoking ordinance here in the US I would have no problem paying a tax to support it. It would be in the best health interest of our citizens. Smoking is a form of drug taking and doesn't need to be encouraged or accepted in any way.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

Ditto, Frank...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:29 PM

I find it hard to believe that there are still people who think that saving the environment for our children and grand children--the future--is a bad thing. How fuckin' selfish can a person be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:28 PM

Anyone for dandelion tea and sunflower seed cookies ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

Yes, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: The Length
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:35 PM

Milk ? goats milk of course, they crap less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM

Soy milk please, no animals are exploited in it's production.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM

Well, that's true, but what about all the energy they to use up in building those little, teeny, tiny stools and buckets that people have to use when they milk soy beans?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 01:39 AM

Now that we have established how many is a high number, even though you have no idea how many that is, tell us how they are "livin' like folks in Third World countries"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 02:35 AM

...even though you have no idea...
Funny thing is,I'm getting the impression that,that is your position on the questions I asked you Dickey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:30 AM

I am a member of Greenpeace and Friends of The Earth.
I was once a member of the Green Party.
I cycle when I can, but that is for my own benefit.
Everyone has a moral responsibility to live a responsible life style, but individual action will not save us.
That is the point of supporting powerful pressure groups that can influence governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:46 AM

Bubblerat,
Greenpeace converted the Rainbow Warrior into a motor/sailing vessel by constructing three masts on the hull of a North Sea fishing trawler formerly called the Grampian Fame.

It is an ocean-going vessel equipped with the latest in electronic navigation, sailing and communications equipment.

If it was only able to sail, it would not be able to effectivly interfere with whaling operations or much else of its valuable work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:49 AM

Rainbow Warrior under sail


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:29 PM

Bobert is the one that made the allegation "America has such a high number of folks livin' like folks in Third World countries" and I need to know the facts that the allegation is based on.

I would like to know what that number is and I would like to know how they are living like folks in Third World countries.

It seems to me like another case of someone repeating something that they don't know to be true and don't care if it is true or not and don't even believe themselves. But they don't have any integrity so they pass it on in hopes that some other person will believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:38 PM

"Poverty definition --- Following the Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive 14, the Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty. If a family's total income is less than the family's threshold, then that family and every individual in it is considered in poverty. The official poverty thresholds do not vary geographically, but they are updated for inflation using Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps)."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM

" Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the nation's official poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004. The percentage of the nation's population without health insurance coverage remained stable, at 15.7 percent in 2004. The number of people with health insurance increased by 2.0 million to 245.3 million between 2003 and 2004, and the number without such coverage rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM

"Poverty

Overview

There were 37.0 million people in poverty (12.7 percent) in 2004, up from 35.9 million (12.5 percent) in 2003.


There were 7.9 million families in poverty in 2004, up from 7.6 million in 2003. The poverty rate for families remained unchanged at 10.2 percent. The poverty rate and the number in poverty showed no change for the different type of families.


As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2004 was an income of $19,307; for a family of three, $15,067; for a family of two, $12,334; and for unrelated individuals, $9,645."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM

However, the picture painted by the Census Bureau (the three posts above) is not quite as it seems. Definitions alone do not explain issues of terrible poverty amongst certain parts of the American population. The 'parts' are usually single mothers, Blacks and Hispanics. Older people are beginning to enter the picture and are more likely to live in a terrible poverty. And some will argue that possession of a television or microwave oven should be an indicator that the people are not REALLY in poverty, and if they were they'd sell their TVs and microwaves and get OUT of poverty, they would be doing America a favour. IMO, those people have their heads firmly lodged somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 02:38 AM

Peace:

How do they ascertain how much they are actually making?

What I am pointing out is Bobert's use of statistical information to support some anti government agenda even though he does not believe in statistics.

"The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment"

"United States, which boasts all this wealth, hides the "fact" that it also haas the highest per capita poverty rate of any western, industrialized developed country"

In addition, because he claims that the number of people below the poverty line is higher in the US than other countries, I would like to know how it is figured in the US and the other countries to see of apples are being compared to apples.

I would also note that the UK supposedly has 17% below the poverty line. I do not believe that is possible. I think there is something wrong with these numbers.

When searching on the subject I come up with facts about how many of these people have two cars, cell phones and 3 bedroom houses etc.

Facts about how the poor in America have more than the average people in other western European nations.

Something here does not compute but Bobert does not care as long as it gives him a talking point to prove something else.

Another claim of his is that a high number of people in the US are living like folks in 3rd world countries.

I find that hard to believe and I would like that to be substantiated. However Bobert is not a substantiating sort of person. He likes to blurt out something he read somewhere, likely some left wing blog or the WaPo, and moves quickly along to the next blurt.

Bobert:"1300 a month minimum for an apartment" I search and find that it is the average and not the minimum. Where did that number come from?

Next on the list of substantiations is infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment.

Note that I am careful not to call people names because I don't think name calling is necessary to prove a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM

Bobert: Are you in over his head?

I was hoping some of the UKers here would dispute or explain why 17% are below the poverty line in the UK.

And I still want to know about those third world conditions here in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Alec
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:45 AM

I was hoping some of the UKers here would dispute or explain why 17% are below the poverty line in the UK
Dickey
If you wish to debate with me,define your terms
Aristotle
The terms you need to define have already been identified for you Dickey.
You have yourself denounced people who ...repeat... something that they don't know to be true and don't care if it is true or not and don't even believe themselves yet you present as such a person yourself.
BTW the post in which you came up with this particular gem is the one in which you denounce others for their supposed lack of integrity.Which was made after you had posted under somebody else's name.
Yet you still seem to think that you have some sort of credibility.
That's just obtuse.
No matter,as I say provide the omitted data and we can return to the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:54 AM

I'm not going to get into long and exhaustive discussions about world poverty but purely for information on poverty in the UK,   Cornwall, has Objective One Status from the EU. To qualify for this you must be one of the very poorest areas in Europe and that includes all member states. Down here it has a lot to do with having the highest rates, water bills, utility bills in the country, house prices are next to highest anywhere in the Uk , consequently first time buyers cannot afford to buy many of the houses, wages are the lowest anywhere in the Uk and predominently seasonal and there is a real shortage of affordable homes to rent. Rural poverty is rampant and we have the third highest number of people living on the streets outside London. Because Cornwall is a stunningly beautiful county with some of the most magnificent views anywhere in the UK people tend to think it is a rich area. Sometimes you just need to stop and look behind the glossy image.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:57 AM

Guest, Cats - I found that very interesting. I'd never associated Cornwall with poverty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:38 PM

First of all when I posted as Bobert it was an accident. I did it to some other folks too so I joined so it won't happen again.

In another thread Bobert stated "The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment"

I found that hard to believe so I started looking for the proof on the internet. I believe a person should have some knowledge and belief of the correctness of what they are stating before they state it.

I found there were statistics to base his claim on. on that site it said "National estimates of the percentage of the population lying below the poverty line are based on surveys of sub-groups, with the results weighted by the number of people in each group. Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. For example, rich nations generally employ more generous standards of poverty than poor nations." Therefore one would have to know how it is figured in the various countries or the percentages are meaningless.

I asked Bobert how it was figured and he did not respond in that thread which I considered the proper thread. I asked him again on other threads and finally I had to accuse him of slinking off into the bushes before he responded.

I lost track of the original thread where he stated those figures so I tried to find it using the Mudcat Forum search. That search only works up through 95 so I used Google and I found where he has made other similar statements plus some other statements in which are prima facie contradictions.

Statements such as percentages as I posted above and his statement that "Like they say, stats are for loosers....
You ain't gonna hear a bunch of stats outta me 'cause I don't need 'um...."

It is by assertion that Bobert while being intelligent, educated, experienced and a good entertainer, repeats things that he does not know to be true and accurate and he does not care if they are true and accurate. He just passes it on in hoping that someone else will believe them and thereby prove his point.

On the site I found data that supported what Bobert claimed. It had poverty in the US as 12% and the UK as 17% I know that can't be right. It sticks in my mind that somewhere Bobert said "western developed nations" so I assumed he was trying to exclude the UK because I believe it is in the eastern hemisphere.

All I want to from Bobert is how do the criteria for poverty and the other stats he posted, compare in the various countries?

While looking at the infant mortality rates I found discrepancies in the criteria for that statistic. For instance "in Switzerland, by contrast, an infant must be at least 30 centimeters long at birth to be counted as living. This restriction effectively excludes most infants weighing less than a kilogram and excludes many of the most vulnerable infants from Switzerland's relativity low infant mortality measure"

I bear no animosity for the UK. I regard the UK as the motherland of America. The birthplace of democracy and freedom. Therefore I doubt that there can be more poor people living there than in the US.

I do not believe that these numbers are accurate. I do not believe that 12% of Americans are poor and I do not believe that 17% in the UK are poor.

I would like to have an explanation from Bobert and I would like to hear what the Ukers here have to say about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM

I'm a UKer and I'm worn out with it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM

You are nuthin but a chickensh*t, Dickey...

You wanta talk poverty in the US then, for the unpteenth time, I'll invite you start a thread on it an' guess what???

I'll be there!!!

Don't mess with me on this one unless yer willin' to get yer butt whupped up on... A number of folks here have already leaid out some of the basic groundwork on where this will be going but it's teribly rude and disrespectfull, not to mention chickensh*t to use someone elses thread to use as yer personal attack thread about something that was mentioned insignificantly in a post...

You have made the mountain from the molehill an' if you have the balls, then start yer own danged thread and fight it out over there and there will be a number of us who will be more than happy to jump in over there...

Meanwhile, respect this forum an' let the author of ***this*** thread, which I ain't, have the freedom of not havin' it highjacked by some one with an axe to grind...

But after what eanjay, who I think is a newish menber, said in the last post, seems you have allready Martin Gobson'd this thread...

Real nice work, Dickey, at screwing up another thread...

Don't blame me, apl... This one is all yers...

Now, like I've asked over and over, you got somethin' to say about poverty in the US, have at it... in yer own thread!!!

I won't respond to you again in this thread on this subject because it disrespects this forum and the author of this thread... If you want to continue makin' an ass of yerself, have at it...

Have a nice day...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:35 PM

Bobert:

What was wrong with the thread where you originally posted your "facts"?

And you are the one with the personal attacks.

Let's start with the $1300 minimum for an apartment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:59 AM

Like I said, "Start yer own thread" and say yer sorry to the author of this one now that you have killed it off...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM

Sorry to return to the original thread...

In justa few short decades, only the mega-rich will be driving cars due to the supreme shortage of oil (if not global warming). A lot else will change profoundly, too. It is insecapable. It is justa matter of time. So calling Greens hypocrites does not really help the cause of humanity. BTW, how many anti-choice zealots want to close the abortion door for others now that they have had two or three of their own? How many prominent homophobes have been outed as frauds or have disowned members of their families out of "Christian" love? And anyway, just because any given Green is not as green as it is possible to be does not mean that non-Greens get a pass to sit back with smug superiority.

The Greens I know all drive higher mileage cars when they drive at all, or take the bus, train, bicycle, feet, and do many other things in their personal lives to reduce their impact on Mother Earth. Like eating vegetables instead of meat, meat-eating having an even more profound effect on the earth's environment than driving. Yes, it's true. Our impact on the environment from our eating habits are more profound than our impact from driving cars.

Go here: http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/47668/


Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:28 PM

People can be responsible about certain issues without going to extremes. Everybody has to "live" even if they do support The Green Party, Friends of the earth etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:47 PM

Bobert:

Why didn't you answer in the other thread?

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=99097#1972115


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM

I'm giving you full marks for persistence; I don't think I'd have the energy myself!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

I'm not keen on this argument that people use about the cost to the NHS of say smokers for example. I'm sure that most of us do something that could eventually cost the NHS money, such as over-eating, drinking, dangerous hobbies, careless driving, drugs, getting into fights, over-working, rushing about etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 05:29 PM

Good point, Saul... It takes 16 pounds of vegetable proteins to make one pound of animal protein... This one issue alone could go a long way toward bringin' the planet back into some balance...

Okay, like eanjay said, Greens ain't perfect and I ain't perfect but I've not eaten red meat or pork since the 60's... Lotta fish, however... And some chicken which isn't at the 16-1 ratio but a lot less...

And yeah, I like my four bangers fir fuel economy... I have begun lookin' into wind power since movin' to Page County, Va. 'cause it seems that there is always at least a breeze here on the side of the mountain and I've reasd that it really doesn't take much wind to make electricity... I will most likely be my next project next time I have some extra $$$'s...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:36 PM

What's the thread "title", Dickey??


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:27 PM

Here's a link

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=99097#1972115


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM

Links don't work... Name the thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:09 AM

BS: U.S. seeks to de-stabilize Iran


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

What the Hell???

Now yer over there using the poor ol' Iran thread to argue about poverty in the US???

You are incredulous, Dickey... I told you that I'm not into thread bustin' because it very much violates the spirit of this forum so...

...for the, what??? Tenth time??? I'm asking you to start yer own thread on your ideas about poverty in the US an' I'll be more than happy to participate but to participate in more anti-Mudcat bahavior ain't me...

What is it that you don't get here, pal??? PM Joe Offer and maybe he can explain it better...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:09 PM

Bobert, don't argue with Dickey at all or argue coherently.

It was you who had posted The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment... in your first post in the "U.S. seeks to de-stabilize Iran" thread.

Now you write Now yer over there using the poor ol' Iran thread to argue about poverty in the US???

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM

Well, Wolf, if you look at just about any thread that has ****ever*** gone past 5 posts, other than ones related to medical problems, you'll find lots of folks, including yerself, who will interject somehting that isn't 100000% on topic... Thats the nature of threads.... Agreed???

Well, okay, so I did the same but it wasn't like the intent was to redirect the topic any more than when anyone, yourself included, by just out of the blue posting something that in no way pretains to the discussion at hand...

If you want to quote me do it in the context of the entire post... Don't cherry pick and then promote yerself to this smug little throne like Dickey has done... Quote the entire post and let other judge if what I said in that post warrents y6ou or Dickey thinking that I had gravely changed the nature of the thread...

But you won't do that because it doesn't fit yer neat little world where it's opkay to highjack threads as long as yer takin' a poke at me...

Normal for you...

Normal for Dickey...

Glad there ain't more folks like you and Dickey out there with yer snipers rifles willing to completely highjack otheer folks threads with yer own agendas...

All I have asked from the very beginning (in this now completely highjacked thread by Dickey and now you) was if Dickey felt so utterly defensive about a small part of a larger post then he should have stared a new thread rather than disrespect the author of this one...

Courtesy, my friend, courtsey...

Have a nice day...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM

Bobert:

over there using the poor ol' Iran thread is where you brought up the "fact" that

"The US leads all *developed nations" in per capita poverty, infant mortality, incarceration rates and capital punishment"

So who hijacked that one?

Who refuses to answer any questions about something they brought up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:50 PM

Yeah, keep cherry pickin', Pricky...

You are a jerk of the highest order... Quote the entire post, jerko, or shut the heck up...

You are nuthin' but a troll who has no interest in discussing issues ot you woul;d have started another thread, yet in yer jerko little mind you think it's okay to take very small part of another's post and blow it way outtta portportion like it was some picture of Kennedy being shot when, in reality, it was a small part of an overall post...

Now that you have completely trashed this thread, which BTW, wasn't a thread that you authored, just to play "ah hah, gotcha", amyeb in yer li8ttle jerko world this makes you all bold and bulky...

To me and probably 99% of the folks here, if they are even botherin' coming around to a thread that you have highjacked, you are nuthin' more than a petty little jerk...

... and so, have at it, jerko... I'm leaving yer this trashed thread for you and Wolfy to tarsh even more...

Maybe when the two of you are done you can have a couple cold ones together at the Creepo Cafe and smugly replay how big and brave you two were...

...but to me, Dickey, you have destroyed the last shread of evidence that you have anything to say that is worth the bandwidth...

Bye...

Oh, an' maybe you'd like to explain to yer new found friend, Wolfgang, seein' as he is enammed by you how you have posted using my handle (Bobert) on this forum...

Like I said, you are a jerk of the highest order...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:50 PM

In answer to the title question, yes I drive a car. I drive a 25 year old diesel sedan (a recycled car) and burn used vegetable oil (not just recycling but it burns cleaner than hydrocarbons) for fuel. My contribution to pollution is my motor oil for which which I pay for proper disposal.

My fuel is almost free so very little of my money goes to promote the interests of the oil companies and the robber barons who rule America. I live on the island of Guam, a U.S. territory so all my Federal Taxes go into the coffers of the territorial government, not to the Federal Government.

I have removed myself from the wicked, polluting, and profit seeking mentality of the USA. Of course the territorial government is inept, inefficient, bureaucratic, and useless but that is another story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:31 PM

Good on you, Naemanson... Yeah, it is possible to get a deisel to run on used cookin' oils... I had a Volkswagen deisel pickup truck about 15 years ago and was on the verhe of taking the plunge in gettin' it to run on used cookin' oils when I got rear-ended by some guy in a big new SUV and it killed the poor ol' VeeDub...

BTW, their are folks burnin' motor oil fir heat... No reason to put it back in the ground...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:44 AM

Bobert, instead of getting so defensive and hostile, just answer in the thread where you posted your "facts" sir.

To save space I only quoted the part of your post that I need clarified.

I see you are still quoting stats.

I don't know Wolfie but maybe he is part of the 1%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: semi-submersible
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:48 AM

I drive where necessary, and miss some events when I can't justify them to myself and better half. (We aren't Green Party members but have voted that way on occasion.)

Where houses and businesses are close enough to walk or bike, cars are rarely needed (though often used). But many areas in North America, especially in rural areas, spread "neighbourhoods" over great distances. It may be miles from most residents' homes to even the simplest errands or meetings. In my family we have to drive at least half an hour to get any groceries we don't grow at home. (There is a small marina/general store three kilometres away, but I just can't afford to pay their markup regularly.) There are limits to how many rides (and stops at the grocery if you don't mind?) you can arrange with someone before you become a nuisance.

Low density sprawl forces use of cars. Zoning regulations often require a minimum distance between dwellings, and lot size per dwelling. Some analysts suggest such regulations may be based on unexamined assumptions such as: we've left the city, therefore this is country, and in the country land is laid out in squares or patches like our grandparents' (40 acre) farms, even if our lots here are smaller.

A more thoughtful approach to planning, more village-like, is currently being explored under names like cluster density or eco-density. Meanwhile most of the population is stuck trying to strike a balance between such choices as we feel we can afford. In our neck of the woods, buses are a dream and horses not an option. (All trees here, no grass, and deer are too nervous to use for transportation.)

By the way, robomatic, you can actually move a boat on tide power alone, provided you have enough line to anchor whenever it stops moving you in the right direction, but manpower and provisions tend to eat up all energy savings so it's just done in emergencies. Winds are undependable in my region, so we're stuck with motors or oars for almost all errands; and then except where a water route is shortest, once again land travel seems the most efficient. Few stores today provide water access since the roads came in.

My family has cut back on driving and is using smaller vehicles than a few years ago, but is still in the planning stage of our first electric vehicle conversion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:30 AM

Oh, an' maybe you'd like to explain to yer new found friend, Wolfgang, seein' as he is enammed by you how you have posted using my handle (Bobert) on this forum... (Bobert)

Leave me out of that, Bobert, I've nothing to do with Dickey. Don't fall prey to the muddleheaded thinking that when I criticise an argument by you (or someone else) I must necessarily agree with the person to whom your (the) argument had been addressed to.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does the Green Party drive cars ?
From: Dickey
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM

Still waiting on an answer from Bobert in the Iran thread.

Instead of an answer, all I get is hostility and name calling.


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