BS: Teenager problems

Subject: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST,Disillusioned single parent
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:45 AM

I seem to be getting out of control of things. Is it right for me to have a life of my own, or should it be on hold until the kids have grown and gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:13 AM

Mine are yet to hit the teenage years. But no, you are more than entitled to a life on your own!
But what they think constitutes that, may differ from your ideas?
Do you mean just enjoying some time with other adults, or do you mean introducing them to a new partner?
Two totally different scenarios. One with more pitfalls than the other. Both needing different approaches.

Good Luck. And even when they have you screaming, we know it is far better to have them don't we, and all their little foibles!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:20 AM

The kids are your life, or a major piece of it, until you achieve parturition. Of ocurse you have a yearning to get away from teen stupidity and noise and you should do so, if you can work out a way to do it. Bu8t the basic strategy is staing in good communication regardless of all temptations to do otherwise until they get through the crazy years.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Morticia
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:22 AM

If they are out of control, or you are, you really need to try clawing some of it back, before it gets worse.......and there's lots worse it can get, trust me, I'm a social worker and the mother of two who have now left teenage behind them, I know.

If you are prepared to leave anonymity behind and PM me, I can probably offer some support with specifics.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:30 AM

It's important to look beyond their behavior at home. It's helpful to remember that at this age, they will most clearly show the lessons they have learned from you NOT with you, but with their friends. (I learned a powerful lesson about that from Amos' daughter.) With you they will be focusing on getting a sense of who they are apart from you, and it's messy. ("Shitting the nest.")

If they are letting you close enough to see that they treat their friends well, that's an excellent sign that they are becoming just the sort of young adult you'd like them to be.

If, though, their peer relationships are poor and there are concerns about substance abuse, etc., Morti's advice is very important and you may need to think about learning some intervention skills.

In any case, yes, you should have a life of your own, but not 24/7. They need you at this age, and don't usually know how to ask for what they most need from you. (They need a parent not a friend.) And if they don't get it from you, they will tend to seek it elsewhere, not always in the best places. This is the time when it's most tempting to give in to any co-dependency you may harbor, and be their pals. But it's not a good thing, for them or for you.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:48 AM

Sell them for scientific research, you will feel much better and benefit humanity. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:56 AM

Give them to a third world country to eat, benefits everybody.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST,Disillusioned single parent
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:01 AM

WYSIWYG " This is the time when it's most tempting to give in to any co-dependency you may harbor, and be their pals. But it's not a good thing, for them or for you " I think you could be right there. My daughter pushes really hard against any barriers I think I've put up, and this could be due to the fact that I have become her 'friend',
but what happens if I'm seen as the rule making/tough 'parent' and unapproachable when she has a problem? I allow smoking (but not in the house) because she'll do it anyway but sneaking and lieing about it. She won't get up in the mornings for school and I have to go to work and can't be there to get her out of the house. The school say I have to praise the positive and they'll deal with everything else! Oh yeah, how can they, when she chooses not to be there? This is UK by the way. She can be a little darling at times, and other parents (of boyfriends) say what a lovely girl she is. I know that means I've got it right if she can be pleasent away from home, but I could do with a bit of that.

Anyway that's only part of the problem. She is just sounding like a normal teenager to me even!

How can I get her to do as she's told?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: MBSLynne
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:29 AM

She isn't pushing against barriers because you've become her 'friend'. They push against barriers all through their childhood and teen years, just to make sure that the barriers are there. And that's the important bit. You set the rules, you make sure they know the reasons for the rules, but you enforce them, because then they know where they are, and that is their security. If they can rely on you to stop them pushing past the barriers, they'll feel safe. A child (or teenager) who finds the barriers moving away when he or she pushes is not a happy child.

As far as getting her to do as she's told (not that I'm a good one to advise on this! I can't get my 9 year old to do as she's told!) by teen years (How old is she by the way?) you have to start keeping the telling for the important things. The only way I've found then to enforce it, is the old removal of privileges. "If you don't do this, then you won't be allowed this". It's reasonable, logical and appeals to their sense of justice, even if they kick up about it like mad!

And the other thing i believe is talk to them, talk to them, talk to them, all the time. Explain what you feel, what you think and why and allow them to do the same. You may be a parent but they also have to see you as a human being!
Good luck!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:42 AM

Believe me, it is a myth to think you will have a "life of your own" when the kids are grown. (I didn't add 'and gone' because they keep on coming back!) You will have much less of a life because they'll take lots more time (and money) as adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:57 AM

Don't you wish they came with instructions! I've certainly had some major ups and downs with my two eldest (now 20 and 18) and no doubt will have more to come with them and the other three. If your child won't get up for school then point out that you could be the one in trouble if she refuses to go. I'm not saying it will help but at least she will understand why you are likely to get angry if she doesn't do as asked. Don't be afraid to get angry either - it can clear the air sometimes but always try to follow an outburst with an explanation as to why you reached that point. If you are not already a member of mudcat - join and in times of desperation call into the chat room - although we talk a lot of rubbish most of the time many of us are parents and will listen to you blowing off about the latest and sometimes offer helpful advice or help you to see the lighter side and help releive the stress - honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM

What has worked for me all these years is to use "contingency management" with everything.

For instance:

If you want___________________then you must FIRST do _________________!


If you do not do _________________ then you will have to do _____________!

As in, "if you do not sign up for disabled student support as you indicated you would, then you must bring your truck home from campus."


In order to get, do, have, enjoy you must first do_____________, just to reiterate.

Parents make a big mistake when they give things, privileges, or rewards without first requesting or explaining or expecting, the desired behavior. If you institute this system and stick to it, you will have very obedient children, when the chips are down. If you say it doesn't work then you are not doing it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:20 AM

I would modify MBSLyne's approach by phrasing it, WHEN you complete "such and such", THEN you will be allowed or entitled to do "such and such."

    I take out the negatives unless it is a situation I have failed to address beforehand such as something they were supposed to do and didn't. Then you say, "If you don't do...then you can't..." Whatever it is you say they can't do, it must be something they want at that moment. If your reward for desired behavior is a thing they don't want at that moment, it won't mean enough for them to do what you ask immediately!

   With the above example regarding DSS with my son, he scrambled to sign up because he knows I will follow through on my threat! I had told him originally, he couldn't have his truck on campus UNTIL he got a job. What did he do? He got a job immediately and I gave him his truck.

    As a result although he is no genius and I don't know whether he will be a success in adulthood, he has never had a wreck, no tickets, no arrests, no drug use, no alcohol, no cigarettes, and no pregnant girlfriends. He joined his own church of his choice... and he is a Junior in college which amazes everyone who knows him. Knock on wood. (We won't mention the machete incident,   will we Dr. Peterson)!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: mg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

How far is the school from where you work? I'd get her up and take her to work with me if I went to work early, and let her walk to school when it was time or take the bus, if it was safe. If she can't get herself up at a later hour, then she should be up and dressed at least with you. If the school was open early and she had a lobby or someplace safe to wait until it opened, I'd take her there. Soon she would learn she could get more sleep by getting herself to school. Yeah, don't be her friend, and don't assume that she would smoke anyway. Be pretty clear about how you don't smoke in your family. If she is irresponsible and can't be on her own without sneaking out etc., send her to a relative's house when you need to socialize, or get her a babysitter with a cell phone to call you if she does sneak out. You do need some separation. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Assuming you're raising children with whom you want to have a good relationship all of their lives, then reexaming those hard-and-fast rules of yours on a regular basis gives them a feeling that as they mature some of the barriers will be lifted. Kids push against rules because they need that framework for security, but also because they want to understand why the rules are still there. It's important for any parent to recognize that once the kids are grown and gone they will only respond to the rules they respect out of deference to you and out of their own self-interest. So choose your battles wisely. What are their future choices that you want to influence? How can you equip them to make those choices, so that when they come to make those choices, they hear your voice offer reassuring advice?

Negotiation is critical. "You want something, I want something. This is how I propose that we both get what we want." We have a split system here for allowances. Half of it they are going to receive every week regardless of behavior. But if I have trouble with some aspect of chores or behavior that maybe withholding a few dollars might influence, then I do it. As suggested above by harpgirl, there are other occasions when the desired outcome (on the child's part) is something much larger, and the behavior I want them to enact is much larger. (You want to go to the convention in the spring? Then wear your retainers like you're supposed to. Apologies to Moonglow, who is a great kid, for using this example. We're both getting something we desire.)

I am very lucky in working flexible hours and telecommuting when I need to. It (in addition to saving me gas money) allows me to work at home when the kids have breaks from school. It is this flexibility that has kept me from looking around for a higher paying job. The time with the kids is worth the struggle to keep the bills paid. For more insight on the "having your own life" part of this, I suggest reading the Mudcat Singles thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:41 AM

Single parents need extra support than two parent couples. So find a support group of single parents of teens, and start going there religiously. It will give you the feeling that you have more of a life than you actually have parenting teens!

Second, the boundary issue is they key. Kids don't feel safe without a strong boundary. And when I say strong, I mean you have to hold the line like you were a linebacker for the Pittsburgh defense with some kids. With other kids, the conflict and boundary battering doesn't need to be so intense. But in my experience, it is most often the most intense between same genders, ie mom and daughter, and dad and son. So keep that in mind too.

Third, teens very much need to feel part of a family, yet they are pushing away from the family at the same time. I think it's a good idea to have regular family time with teens, but don't call it that. Don't make it church or school related either. Just make it time to hang together and watch videos, or go shopping, or something everyone likes to do, and then do it regularly. That way you won't feel guilty taking some time for yourself now and then, and they won't feel like "family" is a thing of the past--for little kids.

Lastly, you mentioned something about wanting your daughter to come talk to you when she needs help. This is the biggest mistake parents, but especially single parents make. You need to understand that the reason why strong boundaries are so important is that you want them to be afraid of what you will say, think, or do if you find out about something they know they shouldn't be doing. This is actually their conscience working, as if you were their little angel on the shoulder while they are away from you. They really need you to stay in that role while they are teens. They are going to talk to their friends, not you, almost always at this age. You really need to accept that, and know that if your relationship is strong, they'll come back to you later in life as "friends".

But the teen years aren't the time for being friends with your kids. It is the time for holding the line, so they know how much you care about them, and about the family. Use guilt if it works. By that I mean, you want to appeal to their best sense of judgment. If they do some stupid thing out in the community or at school or through church, let them know how it reflects on you as a parent, and on your family. You wouldn't believe how powerful a motivator that is for kids.

I have a 20 year old and a 17 year old, and work in an urban high school. Believe me, you are not alone in the way you feel. But if you feel like things are getting out of control, it is because they are, and because your child feels out of control. But that is pretty normal, in one sense. But as others have said, if you suspect drug and alcohol issues, sexual promiscuity (for male or female child), gang stuff, anything like that, get to your school's social worker ASAP, and start working with them.

And BTW, declare a new law--forbid smoking. You need to do this as a parent because the effects of smoking on your child's health is really, truly negative. You are being ridiculously permissive about that. "Because they'll do it anyway" is a sign that you aren't parenting. Get some parent training for adolescents, as someone else suggested. A parent should never give any sort of permission for their child to engage in unhealthy or high risk behaviors, just because they don't feel like setting the boundaries.

Parenting teens is hard, thankless work at the time. The reward is the adult they become. No, you won't have much of a life while parenting teens. It's exhausting in the same way parenting toddlers and preschoolers is exhausting, and now you are older and have less energy than you did when they were young. But you are the parent. Not their friend. They have friends. It is really true. Teens aren't friends with their parents during their teens years, unless their parents stick to the script of being the parent first.

People have made good suggestions on getting kids to do what they are told. But the number one way to get compliance with kids this age is to withhold privleges. Phone access, internet access, time out with friends and boyfriends. I spent a good part of my teen years grounded. I'd get out of the house, misbehave again, get grounded again. I'm a slow learner! But the important thing is, my parents not only kept grounding me, but eventually sent me to boarding school to keep me from killing myself with my dangerous, high risk behaviors, like partying, the drink, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:55 AM

You need to understand that the reason why strong boundaries are so important is that you want them to be afraid of what you will say, think, or do if you find out about something they know they shouldn't be doing.

Though most of GUEST's post works for me, this remark didn't. Too much fear in the formula leads to hiding problems until they're too big to be handled within the family by the parent working with the child. While they do need to know your thoughts on important issues, they need to be able to anticipate your reaction will be rational, and know that they can tell you if something is really really wrong. That didn't come through in that particular part of GUEST's statement.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: MBSLynne
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

Good point Harpgirl....about the negative/positive bit. I'll adjust my actions to take it into account!

The most important thing though, is STICKING to it once you've said it. And often the most difficult!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

Remember that teenagers are basically insane, by a mature adult's standards. Their brains are still undeveloped (MR scans have shown this to be true); they cannot distinguish the shades of grey a mature adult brain can. Everything is black and white to them (hence the youthful idealism yearned for by the old and compromising). They are also extremely self-centered because their ego is developing by leaps and bounds at this time; they are trying to develop a sense of themselves separate from what they were--your child. You can't help but remind them of what they were... a dependent drooling mini-you who needed their nappies changed and woke up crying/puking/peeing/pooping in their cribs every night. They are kind of subconsciously resentful of the fact you know their weaknesses that way and that maybe you might have trouble seeing their new strengths. Throw the raging hormones into the mix and you can see why it's a miracle they have anything civil to say to you at all. All part of being that wonderful freak-of-nature called a teenager. They treat their familes like dirt and are usually polite and helpful to their friend's families.

Just remember you were as big a headache to your parents too. It wasn't your fault and it isn't theirs now. It's the parent's for giving birth to them. ;)

They'll probably come around much later, but in the meantime you've got some bitchy years ahead. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that made me laugh and nod: "When I was 16, I thought my father was the biggest idiot on the planet; by the time I was 24, I was amazed at how wise he'd become."

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 01:43 PM

The teenage years are the reason some mammals eat their young. As has been previously stated (supra), single parenthood throws complications into the mix, and as Cluin said, by adult standards, teenagers are insane. That is true BTW. The study was complete and the results released nation-wide in Canada. I have taught teenagers for years, and that particular news release came as no surprise to me. "A child with no boundaries has no security." Another truth.

The advice to seek out other single parents is very good. DO that! One of the things you may need at this point is to feel you are not alone with this particular realization. You are brave to state that it's getting to the stage where you need help. Seek it, ASAP. Depending on where you live, there are community support groups available, and they are worth looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:00 PM

Where is the other parent in this mix? Their presence is also critical to giving your teenagers security and a second safe residence. In theory, anyway. It does in our instance. I live about 3-4 miles from the kids' dad. They see him daily.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:41 PM

Now that my kids are grown adults, its hard to believe they were ever 'nasty' teen-agers. I, too, was a single parent and went through a few hellish years with both of them. The daughter from about 13 - 16, the son from about 15-18. It didn't help that I was going through menopause at the same time! I thought I was going to lose my mind.

The boundaries work very well when they are younger but I found that as teen-agers they no longer cared about my boundaries. They would do 'whatever' behind my back. I remember my son saying, "I don't need you!" I also remember thinking that my daughter needed her independence but she didn't need to destroy me in the process.

Solution? Don't ever kick her out of the house. Explain that no matter how nasty she is, you will always be there. Talk about how friends are important but that they won't be there in the same way as family. Find out why school is such a major obstacle.

When I was a kid, I 'got behind' and never really caught up. This was very depressing for me and I couldn't figure out how to succeed. My daughter, didn't like school because of the social situation. Everyone has their own reasons. See what you and the school counsellor can do to improve the situation for her.

While all of this was going on, everyone was telling me what wonderful children I had. Bright, polite and mature! I will say that my kids had other significant adults in their life. When things got really bad, they had someone else to talk to.

Their only saving grace was that they could never have been as nasty to me as I was to my mom. I still hear my mother's voice, "When you grow up, I hope you have a daughter as bad as you are!" Ohhhh - The age old curse!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:43 PM

Here's a book for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:47 PM

Cluin:

I think the quote is from Mark Twain. "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned."

Bringing Up Father



A

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:51 PM

Quite likely, Amos. I was just paraphrasing from memory. Figures it was a Mark Twain quote. He was pretty shrewd, wasn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:06 PM

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years." Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM

I realized I have more to add:

If it seems that they are out to destroy you, just remember that in order for them to become individuals, they feel they need to break their dependence on you. They are biting through the invisible umbilical cord. If you expand your own personal life, it will give them a little breathing room.

When I would put my son under the microscope and tried to sort him out, he would say mean things like, "Get a boyfriend!" or "Take a downer"! Brat! He wanted me to back off. When I finally did give him the space, he was actually just fine. He needed the room to grow.

I think single moms are very close to their children which is good to a point. When that point arrives, its good to know how to keep a safe distance. Power struggles do not work. They will win everytime.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:03 PM

Many people have said many things on this thread....much of which is true...in their eyes or even some others.
The thing to remember is..."You spend the first part of your life being "bugged to death" by your parents and the rest being " bugged to death by your kids"...this is a fact of life and all anyone can do is try in whatever way possible to minimise the situation......a desire which comes from within each of us!.....Work at it!!!! You can emulate your children but you cannot MAKE them conform to your standards. As Kahlil Gibran said in the book "The Prophet"...."Your children are as arrows".......and goes on to say..you can point them in the right direction and release them but they will be blown this way and that and find their own path as you cannot control it.
Sorry if this is hitting anyone hard but after a "Child Care career of 30 yrs..I've been there...seen it...done it...bought the "T" shirt...made a hole in it...sewn it up...washed it...and worn it again. All you can do is try! Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:17 PM

A friend of mine was/is having the same type of difficulty with his daughter right now. The mom left a few years ago--found a deal she liked better--and the daughter and dad have been 'on their own' since. She will often discuss things with me that she "couldn't tell her dad", and with her permission, I often relay (translate) information that has to go from her to him. I certainly don't have the wisdom of Solomon, but what I have noticed is that she seems relieved that another adult will help. I have been useful to them both in a few situations--'the talk', fractured heart when she and her boyfriend called it a day, what to do or not do about drugs, etc. Basically, she treats me as a surrogate dad, and we both know that the info she gives me is 'top secret' from the whole world--except her father, and nothing is secret from him. They have developed a very close relationship, and gradually I am fading out of the picture because I'm no longer necessary, and that's as it should be. It helps, I think, that she likes me as a teacher, but the major issue with kids is--as it's always been--the matter of trust.

A pat on the back is six inches higher than a 'kick in the a$$'. Sometimes that's important, too. Doing it the way we have has allowed them to communicate without having to be face to face. As a result, they have been able to gradually get face to face, and that is where we all wanted it to go. I hope something in there is useful to you, DSP. And if I can be of help, please say so here or by message.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:22 PM

Yes, and a big part of what works about that is the "nothing is secret from Dad" part. It's when the adult or the child creates a secrecy rule that something's usually not right.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

...or as my dad once said to me:

"I've taught you every thing I could possible teach you. Now that you are a young woman, I have nothing else to say. I'm not going to tell you how to lead your life. If you want advice, you'll have to ask for it. I will support your decisions. Just remember that you will have to live with the consequences of every decision you make."

Thanks, Dad. I really miss you and remember you as a wise and loving father.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:47 PM

" talk to them, talk to them, talk to them, all the time. Explain what you feel, what you think and why "

I'm sure that's right for a lot of kids, and a lot of times. But I suspect that for others that may not actually be the right way.

Companionable silence has a place as well, and putting some things on the side till it's a better time to talk about them.

Basically till they are down, they come first - but putting them first sometimes means really getting up their nose, when it would be much more fun to just go along with their wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:42 PM

There are many things to remember when dealing with a teenager...one is...if you say "NO" have you a good reason for saying it? If you haven't then please don't say it!
TRUST your children...show them trust even when you may feel that they will abuse it....they have to live with it as well as you! When they abuse your trust...deal with it in the best way you see possible.
You have to trust your partner when he/she goes out of your sight so why not trust your kid?. Please don't try to anticipate what your child might do...or you may make difficulties where they may not exist.
Most of all...show your children LOVE...whatever they do and support them through thick or thin......that's life!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

I find that parents who listen and let the kids talk (that is the insane part, because a large part of what they have to say is absolute psychobabble), instead of talking at the kids (I was notorious for doing that) do better with most kids. Kids hate being lectured.

As to the putting the fear of god into them, I'm going to stick by that, and add that shame is a great guardian of boundaries when we aren't around. I've talked about this with both adults and kids. If you have a strong, healthy family with a lot of love, most kids won't go off the deep end for fear of you or their aunties or grampa finding out about the stupid thing they did. In my book, we call that deterrence. The child would be so ashamed of themselves if they were caught out.

It isn't at all about making kids be afraid of you. It is about making them honor the bonds, the family, the community, and not want you to be ashamed of them. Not every kid will get that, but many of them do. Fear of bringing shame on the family is a great deterrence. Traditional cultures often go too far with it, but a healthy dose of the fear of shaming or embarrassing the family is A Very Good Thing in my book, especially in the teen years, when high risk behavior is prevalent among so many kids.

There is no greater motivator for most teens than the fear of being embarrassed in front of their friends/peers. The second greatest motivator is the fear of bringing shame to the family. Honest. Most kids care very much about that #2. Not as much as #1, I'll grant you. But still. As parents of teens, you take what you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: *Laura*
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:11 PM

I just wanted to respond to what Brucie said in his last post. When I, I suppose 'suddenly', had to get used to it just being me and my mum, it helped a lot to have other (particularly male) people to chat to. Not at first, but after a while.
There are a few people now who before I didn't think of as anyone other than a 'neighbour' or 'family friend' - and more recently it has been good to talk to people that aren't my mum. Especially if they knew my dad.
So - yes, I agree it helps to have someone 'outside' to talk to.

from *a teenager*
xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:20 PM

My daughter used to be surprised when her friends enjoyed talking with me. I expect by now she has figured out that her friends' mothers are pretty interesting. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:29 PM

From Paint Your Wagon:

Horton: Mr. Rumson, I swore I wouldn't tell anyone. I hope that means except my father and mother.
Ben Rumson: That means especially your father and mother.
Horton: But I've never kept anything from them before.
Ben Rumson: Well, it's time you started. Because when you do, a whole new world opens up.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:40 PM

Four Options:
1. The kids live under your roof with your rules.
2. You leave the kids the house and find a new place of your own.
3. Retro-active Abortion (if not legal in your state) vacation to another.
4. Place the kids up for adoption - offer a cash incentive

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:44 PM

Nonono-- there are FIVE options!

5. YOU live under the KIDS' roof with THEIR rules. And enjoy watching THEM pay all the bills!

Oddly, the kids seldome choose this option when it's offered.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:51 PM

I remember spending my teen years wishing my mother would find an interest in life besides me.
I was a good kid. I didn't drink, I didn't do drugs. I didn't want to do either. I painted pictures, badly, wrote poetry, read a lot, and kept largely to myself.
I endured a great deal of music I was too young to understand, because mother liked to go to concerts, and she didn't have anyone else to go with.
I also listened to all her worries, concerns, and problems. I spent a lot of time wishing she would find some friends her own age, quit trying to micromanage my life, let me learn to drive for the love of God! (I got my license 7 years ago.) and try my wings a little. No such luck.
Every year, we'd go down to the Three Rivers Arts Festival, and mother would watch the potters throw pots, and wish that she could. She finally took it up THE YEAR I STARTED COLLEGE. She could have started a lot sooner, and we both would have been happier.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:54 PM

My mom threw pots.
At my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Hrothgar
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:40 PM

Drowning at birth fixes this.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:27 AM

My kids and I have always been extremely close, and so once the teen years hit, it was, in many ways, much harder for them to separate from me than it is for kids who aren't that tight with their parents. I've also been really, really lucky neither of my kids have been into drugs and the party life. They are into the straight edge punk scene, which I will always be grateful for, because there is a strong abstinence component to it. I did absolutely nothing to get my daughter (our eldest) into the scene, she found it all on her own.

That said, I also have friends whose middle child, a daughter, has been an absolute nightmare to raise. She drove without a license, smoked, drank, disappeared for days, ran away constantly, kept flunking in school, and recently gave birth to her first child at 16. And she has parents who are very decent people, but not very good people. Mom is a very invasive and critical mom (like the mom mentioned above) and dad is a largely absent dad who ironically works with kids just like his daughter, whom he did virtually nothing to help. Mom went to court, to the social worker & principal's office, called the police when the daughter was missing or out of line, etc.

Both parents smoke cigarettes, and mom smokes pot (even gets it from her oldest daughter). So while on the one hand, mom is very strict (as her own screwed up mother was), she also is extremely permissive about the things she herself does, like smoke cigarettes and pot, drinks and drives, that sort of thing. So truly, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree, but sometimes it grows up to be much bigger and stronger than the parent tree!

My heart just aches for all of them. This one child has nearly single handedly destroyed this otherwise pretty good (though obviously dysfunctional) family. They all refused to get counseling, BTW. They just wanted their problem child "fixed" not to have to face their own dysfunctions and contributions to the problem child being who and what she is being similar to who and what the parents are like.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:41 AM

I was watching a news program, might have been Frontline, might have been one of the other networks. It was a long and detailed story about the deterioration of two teenaged daughters after their parents divorce and the mother's move to a new state. Their unhappiness at being distant from their father was manifested in lots of rebellion and pushing boundaries and more and more risky behavior.

As much as I want to raise my kids in a better place than Texas, I had to recognize that being near their father was much more important than living in the better climate and nearer my family. I've said it before on other threads--you have to put your kids first if you want them to be happy and have as good a chance as possible to get the support they want when they need it. Trying to add a new partner to this is more than I'm willing to attempt, and as I said before in this thread, I'm not looking. But since I decided I'm not looking there are occasionally men turn up who express interest. So far none has gotten past my remark that I'm a single mom raising teenagers who works full time and is in graduate school.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM

I agree SRS. When we choose to have kids, we must also choose to make decisions that put their needs at the top of the list in our lives. I'm in complete agreement with the idea that kids need to be near their father more than they need a more progressive climate to be raised in. I have several divorced friends who did the same thing, putting getting a partner in their life on the back burner until their kids were out of high school for the same reasons you mention (well, ok, none of them was in grad school, but all worked, etc etc).

However, I also have divorced friends raising kids who just keep going on in temporary serial monogamous relationships too, and in this regard, put themselves before their kids. I haven't seen any pattern that one choice has resulted in the kids turning out better than the other. I think if it was me, I'd choose as you have, but that is because to me it seems that life would be easier without the relationship complications. But I don't know that means that path is more right than involving one's self in relationships is as a single parent, so I try not to judge parenting ability on that sort of criteria.

My friends with the real problem child are very decent people, but not very good people. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. These are responsible people in terms of finances, in terms of being polite and well educated, no conflicts with the law, upstanding in the community, professional middle class, that sort of thing. But they aren't very good people because of their dysfunctions. Sorta like the old sexist descriptions of girls in high school being either good girls or nice girls. They aren't very good at parenting. With easy kids, that isn't much of a problem. With more complex and difficult to raise kids, it's a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:39 PM

You have to have a life. Or you'll be resentful and they won't respect you, because they'll resent that you resent them. So get a life, insist on having time for just YOU and let them know when that time is going to be.

You also have to be there for them, which mostly means open to actually listening to them. They may be insane by adult standards, but their own logic makes sense to them and is very real, and imposing your own logic isn't going to work. If you want the respect of a teenager, it's useful to respect them first. If you never see them, then begin insisting on time just for THEM individually as well as time just for YOU.

Yes, boundaries are needed, and you're going to have to hold tight as they test the boundaries, but so is understanding and space. The kid has to know that no matter how ashamed you might be about any mistakes they make, you still actually *love* them, and are willing to let them make some mistakes so that they can grow from it, and are willing to help them to learn how to pick up from their mistakes.

So, why is the kid not going to school? What's the problem? Why does the kid think that the only solution to the problem is to not go to school? Is it the wrong school? Is the kid being bullied and has no way to solve it? Is the kid not interested in normal measures of success and needs to do something *real* for a change instead of more paperwork and homework and boring stuff that the kid'll never use in the real world? Does the kid not have any clue about what the kid wants to do in the future and therefore has no REASON to go to school?

There are so many things this could be, and the only way you're going to know which boundaries are important in this situation is by listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:40 PM

I strongly disagree with Guest about using fear and shame as a method of control.

Everyone will rebel against this at some time in their life. It may happen when they are teen-agers but worse than that is if they rebel later in life. At least when you rebel as a teen-ager, you have a loving environment to return to. When you rebel as an adult, you may have no where to return.

SRS - I agree that a parent must always put the needs of their children first. Staying within distance of the other parent is often the best way to do this. I also agree that bringing a lover into the home when your kids are teen-agers is inviting conflict. This does not mean you must necessarily rob yourself of a social life outside the home. In fact, solid friendships are a great source of strength.

My daughter used to babysit for a woman that she could talk to when times got tough. I also became good friends with her. Later, when her daughter became a teen-ager, guess who ended up on my doorstep? Both girls are now living their own lives and both me and the other mom are best buddies. We are both grateful for the friendship and guidance we have given each other over the years.

Was this just luck? No. I knew that I had to find people to support me as a parent because I was a single immigrant with no family to fall back on. I made an effort to nurture friendships that would enhance my homelife and the lives of my children. As adults, they have told me many times how rich their lives were as children. They never felt deprived of anything. In fact, they had a much wider exposure to life than their friends who were raised by the parental unit who protected and controlled them with fear and guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:03 PM

Thinking that households should be run as democracies instead of benevolent dictatorships is a mistake, IMO. Mom and/or Dad have to be in charge. As the kids get older, the decisions they participate in making should get progressively more 'important'. Basically, show as we go that you can make 'wise' decisions and you will be allowed to make more of them. I don't think shame has to play in it, but if the child DOES something shameful, maybe it's time for a talk.

I have seldom seen a use for things like spankings or corporal punishment. But I have seen a use for "when you decide to see things in a reasonable manner" I am here to speak with. Until then, you're grounded.

Lots of what goes on with kids is about trust and mutual respect. Sometimes, "this is the way it is my little darling" has to come first. Done from love, it can be a useful tool. However, I used to preface those kinds of talks with, "This is gonna hurt you more than it will me."

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:00 PM

"The kid has to know that no matter how ashamed you might be about any mistakes they make, you still actually *love* them, and are willing to let them make some mistakes so that they can grow from it, and are willing to help them to learn how to pick up from their mistakes."

Bingo. If the relationship isn't based on love to begin with, nothing will work. Not guilty or shame, not being understanding and "giving them space" (I'm sorry, but as the parent of teens, that saying just plain sounds like hippy dippy shit to me).

Everyone operates with a sense of boundaries in life, and those boundaries are based upon our desire to maintain the relationships that matter to us. If a parent doesn't really give a shit about their kids, they will demonstrate that fact over and over by trying to guilt and shame to control them, or by ignoring them and calling it "being understanding and giving them space". Neither will work if love isn't at the center.

I love and truly care about certain people in my life. If I ever did something to even slightly embarrass them in front of their community, I would feel really, really bad about it. So why do we not expect that our children feel the same as we do about that? Why should we dismiss the use of guilt and shame as deterrents, especially when it protects kids from their own stupidity and poor decision making ability when they freely choose to engage in high risk behaviors?

I want my kids to survive the teen years as strong, healthy human beings who are loving and compassionate. Like I said, I work in an urban high school and see the extremely negative results all the time of "understanding" parents who "give their kids space" and expect them to figure out what we ourselves have yet to get sorted out about life. I'm not advocating routine use of guilt and shame to control kids' behavior. I'm saying you don't exclude limited, reasonable uses of guilt, shame and yes, fear to explain the reasons why someone might want to think twice before doing something idiotic they very well may regret in the long haul. For those things, shame, guilt, and fear are fine as deterrents, not a control mechanism.

Or are we all going to suggest that kids shouldn't be ashamed for starting smoking? Or afraid of the health consequences to themselves and the people who breath their second hand smoke as a result of their smoking?

Give me a break. I have much less problem with a kid missing school because there are other ways of getting a high school education, that only effects them in the long run. But if they just drop out, never finish, and then can't support the children they bear because they have no education? In which case, they bloody well ought to be ashamed of themselves for not bothering to do the work of getting an education, and making their children suffer for it.

Sometimes I think my generation of parents has just plain lost their minds. If they ever had them to begin with that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:28 PM

I think there may be a misunderstanding about "giving them space."

I mean that we shouldn't micro-manage our children's lives. At some point they have to manage without expecting us to jump in and sort it all out. They have to be responsible for their actions.

I, too, am a teacher and understand perfectly well why children need boundaries (thats why they have parents and teachers).

Sure, kids need to know that its a scary world and that they have to be careful but I don't think that includes fearing your parents. Fear, guilt and shame just shut down the communication.

I work with seven year olds. The children that are controlled by fear, shame and guilt are the most difficult to manage in class. When these kids are away from their parents, anything goes. In other words, they have no internal locus of control. When a child is tightly controlled by their parents, they do not develop the internal control mechanisms that are necessary to survive in the larger society. Its a fine balance.