BS: Obama is a socialist

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

No sweat Greg, I was too lazy to look up the whole quote

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

"Socialism is great in theory. The only problem with it is it can be realized" a great man once said and how right I was!

And Sarah Palin is a barracuda.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM

"...the lunatic fundagelical right..."

Beautiful!

What a great new word, "fundagelical" ~ did you coin it, Greg? If so, someone ought to give you a prize, maybe someone in Stockholm, Sweden. ;^)

(I had to say it out loud to myself once or twice to get a correct reading and learn to pronouce it. Now it's part of my vocabulary for good!)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM

The only "ism" that really works is Pragmatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:18 PM

To Donuel: I read your link, and unfortunately, it starts off with a misquote, "Money is the root of all evil"...that is a misquote, from Jesus who said, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil"...huge difference!..Look it up yourself..While you're in there, check out some other stuff too..perhaps, "Love your brother, as you love yourself"..great stuff, but, alas, there is a concerted effort to minimalise it...to their peril.

Kendall: "Capitalism has failed due to its own greed. Socialism is on the horizon".

Actually, the two are at war with each other, by the power mongers. Too bad...a balance is better. What we are 'feeling' now is a power struggle for control, all by idiots, spreading their idiot-ology!!

Peace: "Yes, but in so many ways we have all been caught up in the sides and parties. There is essentially little distance between them. There have been processions of mediocre and harmful governments in the US and elsewhere."
Their is NO distance between them! It is a two headed snake, with the same purpose!..and, they are swallowing their own tail!

And to all those who think pure socialism, is the answer: Socialism did not 'found a country, or build it to be great. It comes up, AFTER,
good and decent people and families, built their country, History shows this!
The only people who need the government, and government programs, as a crutch, to get going, are people who need crutches....LAMES!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:51 PM

Great new word, Greg!!

Donuel, some folks have never heard of paraphrasing. I like it. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM

'Donuel, some folks have never heard of paraphrasing. I like it.'
Jeez, there is a big difference in misquoting and paraphrasing...but that may require an education...as in music, 'Speed, is a bi-product of accuracy!'

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

Everybody needs assistance from the government to get going. Everybody, every day. People don't build their own roads, maintain the safety of, and direct the traffic on those roads to get to work every day. People don't provide themselves with the education they need to do the jobs that they rely on to survive. In places that don't have public education, most people are uneducated.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM

ANOTHER PEDANT ALERT: a quote is contained between quotation marks ("..."). That is why they are called quotation marks - they mark a quotation. A comment not enclosed between quotation marks may be called many things, but never a misquotation, because it is not a quotation in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

GfS is correct that a balance of capitalism and socialism is the best way to go. They are natural partners and should be able to work together quite effectively (as they presently do in most if not all western democracies). The endless diatribes that bounce back and forth between Left and Right are not helping things much, they are simply maintaining strife and distraction.

There's no reason why people should fear socialism, per se, because you MUST have some socialism to run a modern society.

There's no reason why people should fear capitalism, per se, because it remains a very effective way of enabling people to exchange thousands of different goods and services that are better not handled through socialism.

The demonization of both socialism and capitalism in popular rhetoric is not productive. It's a distraction.

To call Obama a "socialist" seems silly to me. If he's going to be an American president he will be governing a country that will continue to deal with socialism and capitalism BOTH, and there ain't no other way to do it.

He has to be both a socialist AND a capitalist if he is going to govern America.

Same goes for McCain, by the way. There's no way they can privatize everything, no matter what the politicians posture and pretend about it. Nor is there any way they can socialize everything. It will always be a combination of the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

The notion that capital is the fruit of labor is genuine and real in its original meaning. However it is an early 20th century sentiment. Since the evolution of Bretton Woods style fiscal manipulation, it has gradually become less clear, and the fiat of government has become the origin point of capital. THis is of course a substitute for the real thing, but since money is at the bottom a reflection of confidence in an idea, it works until that confidence erodes and crumbles. The entire credit market is built on the belief in the credit of the various parties wh generate and distribute this fiat capital.

It creates a bubble, like any Ponzi scheme, that shrinks rapidly when confidence fails and thus breaks the fiat cycle's refresh rate. At that point the economy can be expected to shrink until it approximates the level of genuine capital available, backed by real things and real people. The difference between this ground-truth confidence and the false-belief level of confidence in the bubble can be dramatic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

'Everybody needs assistance from the government to get going.'

Building infrastructure is NOT the same as you are alluding to. Jeez, CarolC,.I don't know what to tell you...you got your stuff all mixed up. I think you are so bent on arguing that you argue for argument's sake! Not a good way to take in information. I think it's an emotional dilemma.., you do it a lot,..sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM

I've been trying to figure out just what, other than George Bush and to some extent, Sarah Plain, has gone so terribly wrong with John McCain's campaign and I think this discussion has alot to do with it...

There can be no doubt that the kind of capitalism that has been practiced in the US for at least the last 30 years isn't working and herein lies Obama's strenght and McCain's weakness... Obama is younger and more open minded and John McCain is juts the opposite... Sure, McCain is running from pillar to post like a bumper car out of control looking as if he gets it but he doesn't...

See, the problems is that "change" is allready here... That is worth repeating... Change is allready here and whether people consciously accept it or not, I think that if it were put to them exactly that way that most would agree...


So given that change is allready here it's more about which guy most folks think can best work within that reality... Obama seems to inately understand that it's a matter of going with the flow and McCain is still fighting... Might of fact, that is his latest cmapiagn slogan... There's no fighting something that has allready occured...

No, I'm not promising an Obama victory but just making an observation that the tides seem to favor someone who ain't gonna spend alot of energy trying to make stuff like it used to be...

Just some thoughts from the ol' hillbilly...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

Bobert: ..Whadya' mean??..Sarah has been the only thing entertaining about this whole, stupid campaign!!..Even a little comic relief, if it wasn't so tragic!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

Building infrastructure is in no way different than people relying on government to oversee the administration of health insurance or relying on government to regulate the financial industry, and any number of other things that government does better than private industry.

As I said before, I'm not the one who doesn't get it. It's the poster who thinks they know everything, including the contents of other peoples' minds who doesn't get it.

Here's the facts. Nobody in the world does everything for him or herself. Everybody in the world relies on other people to help them get their needs met. The only question is who is going to be relied on for that purpose. In the kind of capitalist system that this country has been utilizing for the last few decades, the focus has been on the market to perform this function. As we can see, the market is useless for some functions. It does not do a good job of providing health care, access to roads, education, keeping the peace, providing for people in their old age, and quite a few other things in which profit motive creates a conflict of interest.

The only question is how much of our needs will be met through government administered programs, and how much through the market. There is no situation in which everything can be provided by the market alone.

And this habit of the poster whose points I am addressing, of constantly making personal comments about those he/she is addressing, doesn't assist that person in making their points more effectively. That habit just makes him/her look rather clueleses and pompous.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

As I said before, I'm not the one who doesn't get it. It's the poster who thinks they know everything, including the contents of other peoples' minds who doesn't get it.

What else do you know??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

Quote of the Week
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
Thomas Jefferson 1802

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

I know the contents of my own mind. Unlike the above poster, I don't pretend to know the contents of other peoples' minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM

*The "above poster" being the poster directly after my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM

Wait, wait, wait...

Ummmmmm, I'm not too sure where the conflict arises, CarolC, between you and Richard... But then again I kinda just treat threads as waves and don't get too bogged down with what someone said last week or last year but...

... I think you will agree with Richard that the quote by Thomas Jefferson is very in much in line with what you are saying...

But either way, it's a good quote as is your post of 5:34...

I think both deal with what can go wrong when the markets are freed to either police themselves or...

...lookout for the general good of the country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

Pure unadulterated predatorism is the antithesis of civilization

We have let the Financial Corporations loose without so much as a single regulation to limit their predator nature.
A Casino has a hundred times more regulations than the Republican run, Democrat encouraged Financial Frankenstein corporations.

Maybe just maybe you want the fall of civilization, if so, then go ahead and throw socialism to the dogs.





dear GUEST in the land of sanity

who are you and why are you not writing from the core of your being instead of just tracing a parody of a reactionary?


PS if I did include the entire quote the graphic shape of the poem would have been distorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM

The "above poster" being the poster directly after my last post several posts back. :

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM

There is nothing wrong with being called a "socialist" except that it reflects badly on the accuser. The usual accuser knows nothing about socialism or liberalism except that it is a pejorative term, the kind that Palin uses in her speeches to the rabid fear-mongers.


FDR was called a "socialist" for implementing the New Deal which eventually brought the US out of the Depression.

Obama is not a pure socialist, however, because he believes in entrepreneurism and support for small business. He is not actively opposed to Wall Street but to it's excesses.

There is no pure socialism in America and hasn't been for a long time.

Norman Thomas ran on the Socialist Party long ago.

The person that posted this doesn't know anything about socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM

My comment wass about having a Socialist president----not about McCainn.

Azizzi,
That IS his name? Or are you saying that waas his name? ISS it still his name? Did he change his name? When was it his name? Didd he offfishially change his name?

At the debate tonight, who's on first?

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM

The people here who defend the unquestioned predator destruction of America and the global economy, are frauds.

The only people who could personally and rationally defend these predators would be billionaires. I assume the frauds here are not billionaires.

I know frauds, Frauds are my friends so don't take my calling you a fraud personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Frank,

You are right, there is nothing wrong with being a Socialist. Soooo, you are both wrong and right. But nobody ever called you right before, right? Left, maybe, I'm sure -- but never right!


Until now!

Love to Mary,
Art

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

Sigmund fraud!

Humor is the last refuge for the doomed!!

If ya don't have a sense o' humor, it isn't funny!
(the economy)


Art

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

My last post was not in response to anything said in the post directly above it. I crossposted with that poster when I made my post. My post was in response to things in the post directly before that one.

This business of not being allowed to quote the contents of posts creates a lot of confusion, I know, but there isn't anything I can do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM

And here's what Obama needs to say tonight:

"Capitalism, as it has been practiced since Ronald Reagan was elected, has worked cross purpose with the long term viablility of oor country... It has left the middle class no longer able to afford the imports that used to be produced in America... The jobs that have been created have been lousy $7 an hour jobs selling imported stuff to one another... 82% od the wealth is now in the hands of only 5% of our population... You tell us to go shop but with what??? Our credit cards??? They are maxed... With our pay checks??? They are a joke...

Yes, this economic system has just failed the final exam... And failed it very badly... John McCain says that all we need to do is give even more to the upper 5%... Can you believe that???

No, my fellow Americans... Enough is enough... There is nothing left to give John McCain's frineds... They have it all allready... "

That's what Obama needs to tell the nation tonight...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

"Humor is the opiate of the chronically melancholy"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM

I believe the quote is "Patriotism is the last refuge of despots"

That was for the last poster, before the other one, before the 6th one down, above the third one, in the other thread, right before the second to the last, that was referring to the second one, above the third from the middle, just before the ninth on to the left...and back again! Got that??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM

I agree that Captialism is fine when combined & balanced with Socialism but Captialism fails when it produces an empty air bubble. When it manufactures less & makes more, that bubble bursts & that is why we need to regulate & why Ronnie R wanted to deregulate. To deregulae those that produce nothing is to off set the labor of those that do produce. A company that trades in an inflated air bubble (ex: Enron) will evenually go burst/broke, as will a Street load of vendors that sell nothing back & forth on capatial that they don't own in the 1st place. The credit bubble finally couldn't float anymore but it's not because Capatialism wasn't working & it wasn't because Socialism was disappearing, it's because we/they choose to let the finanical industry manage itself, the foxes were put in charge of the chicken coop & instaed of producing eggs, poultry, chicken fertializer the foxes instead traded the goods produced for a feast & left behind only the chicken gas.

Now if anyone donesn't like the system & there's lot's to not like about it, go out & change it. The system allows for it's self to be changed. Either that or revolt, it does allow for that too. But to spit on it as a whole doesn't do anyone any good. If you want some changes now is as good a time as I've seen since the 60's to make that come about, unless MaCain & Payin gets elected. Now's the time to speak, now's the time to fight to get your civil & human rights that were lost back, now's the time to take it to the streets.
I did my fighting & it cost me dearly, I won't be in the front lines again but I will back a movement that fights for a better way of life for all that live here.
Opp's the debate, bye-byee

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:23 AM

Obama's Buddy, Bill Ayres

Caracas, Venezuela November 7, 2006


President Hugo Chavez, Vice-President Vicente Rangel, Ministers Moncada and Isturiz, invited guests,comrades. I’m honored and humbled to be here with you this morning. I bring greetings and support from your brothers and sisters throughout Northamerica. Welcome to the World Education Forum! Amamos la revolucion Bolivariana!

This is my fourth visit to Venezuela, each time at the invitation of my comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice. Luis has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and I’ve come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggleâ€"I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, Luis, for everything you’ve done.

I also thank my youngest son, Chesa Boudin, who is interpreting my talk this morning and whose book on the Bolivarian revolution has played an important part in countering the barrage of lies spread by the U.S. State Department and the corrupted Northamerican media.......
......Viva Mission Sucre!
Viva Presidente Chavez!
Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!


I believe this guy is not just a terrorist but a Communist to boot.

I can envision Mr Obama in Venezeula, calling people Comerade and shouting Viva Presidente Chavez! with his fist in the air.

And what has this Annenberg thing accomplished with the money poured into it besides glorify itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:27 AM

Your visions, needless to say, are fragmentary hallucinations, Sawz. My Ayers is not Mr Obama, and they are not even particularly close. You have been duped and gulled into hating more than you need to.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM

CAPTURED FARC COMPUTERS NAME BARACK OBAMA (Updated)

Captured FARC documents name Obama

Dead terrorist Raul Reyes had information that FARC was meeting "gringos" about Obama.

The computers captured this past weekend by Colombian soldiers at the campsite of FARC #2 Raul Reyes contained loads of damning information on FARC sympathizers and allies.

The Colombians captured two FARC terrorist laptop computers at the terrorist camp. The Colombians discovered a treasure trove of information on the laptops including:

-- FARC connections with Ecuadorean president Rafael Correa
-- Records of $300 million offerings from Hugo Chavez
-- Thank you notes from Hugo Chavez dating back to 1992
-- Uranium purchasing records
-- Directions on how to make a Dirty Bomb

But, no one expected this---

The FARC Terrorists were hoping and expecting that Barack Obama would win the US elections in November because he was most aligned with the Colombian Marxist group.

This document was posted at Martha Colmenares (in Spanish) and Free Republic:

"6. Los gringos pedir�n cita con el ministro para solicitarle nos comunicara su inter�s en conversar estos temas. Dicen que el nuevo presidente de su pa�s ser� Obama y que ellos est�n interesados en sus compatriotas. Obama no apoyara Plan Colombia ni firma de TLC. Aqu� respondimos que nos interesan las relaciones con todos los gobiernos en igualdad de condiciones y que en el caso de Estados Unidos se requiere in pronunciamiento p�blico expresando su inter�s en conversar con las Farc dada su eterna guerra con nosotros.

Es todo, Abrazos, Ra�l."

(translated)
6. The gringos will ask for an appointment with the minister to solicit him to communicate to us his interest in discussing these topics. They say that the new president of their country will be Obama and that they are interested in your compatriots. Obama will not support "Plan Colombia" nor will he sign the TLC (Colombian Free Trade agreement). Here we responded that we are interested in relations with all governments in equality of conditions and that in the case of the US it is required a public pronouncement expressing their interest in talking with the FARC given their eternal war against us.
Hat Tip BG

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM

Saws, you should be as ashamed as MaSame for even going there-to Ayers. You got to be kidding. How low to their level you sink.

And if you think that there's something wrong with Chavez, you should live among the Venezeulan population, he's there by popular vote of the people, they love him, it's George Bush, Cheney & their kind that can't stand him, mmmmmmm wonder why? Oil, maybe??? It's no wonder the rich & elite want to kill him. It's the same the world over, open you eyes & mind.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:55 AM

"The FARC Terrorists were hoping and expecting that Barack Obama would win the US elections in November because he was most aligned with the Colombian Marxist group."

If you've been listening to any overseas news you'd find that most of the world is hopig that Obama gets elected. Not just our enemies but our friends too. Says alot when that doesn't come up on the national screen doesn't it. You ought to get out more often, staying at home dulls the senses.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:59 AM

Obama said in the debate that he doesn't support the free trade agreement with Columbia because they're killing union organizers in that country, who are trying to get better conditions for workers there. I can see how the FARC people might like that stance. However, I think that the people who are killing the union organizers are also terrorists, and they probably don't like Obama at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:07 AM

Sawzaw, Pretty impressive stuff you posted! I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:10 AM

"However, I think that the people who are killing the union organizers are also terrorists..."

The people killing union staff in Columbia are tolerated by these wonderful people.

It's the real thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,A regular
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

'I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!'

You can call a sheep a dog, but that will not make it bark.



The garbage being promulgated by his enemies about Obama is just that: garbage. However, on a positive note his enemies have honoured him because it's easy to see that they perceive him to be a serious threat. Supporting someone is not a win/lose issue. It is a matter of honour. Many things in life are matters of honour. One of those things is this election.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:34 AM

From: GUEST,A regular
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

'I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!'
You can call a sheep a dog, but that will not make it bark.

The garbage being promulgated by his enemies about Obama is just that: garbage

IF you watched the debates, Obama was having a hard time, clearing the record, of some of the attacks, convincingly. I support neither candidate fully, and see some positive in both,...just not enough, to convince me that they are honest, and trustworthy men. I think both have their problems in that area.
What about a sheep dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

In 1776 we went to war to free ourselves from a foreign dictator. We won, well, (sorta) Now, many countries have tried the same thing but we back the despots who treat their subjects like shit!
Mr. Chavez is the fair haired boy to the destitute that were held down so long.
If democracy is good for us, why not the poor who were freed by Chevez?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

Making Obama out to be a terrorist because he has shared the company with Bill Ayers is no more logical than making McCain out to be a Commie because he shared the company with North Vietnamese prison guards...

But beyond that, what Sawz/Dickey/OldGuy fails to take into account is that unlike most folks, politicans have to share the company with tons of people... It's part of the job... If Obama wanted to trivialize his campaign the way that McCain has he could turn his campaign loose and go digging thru all the various folks that McCain has rubbed elbows with over the years... I'm sure the list would be shocking...

But this election is way too important for trivializing... Too bad the McCains and the Sawzs of the world don't get it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM

I had been trying to come up with a similar (hypothetical) situation in my own life to Obama's "relationship" with Ayers, and arrived at the name David Greenglass. For those whose memory doesn't immediately give them Greenglass' life story, he was convicted spy Julius Rosenberg's brother-in-law, also a confessed Soviet spy, whose perjured testimony sent Rosenberg's wife (who was Greenglass' sister) to the chair. The link between Greenglass and Ayers is that the Rosenbergs' trial (and Greenglass' very active part in it) were happening when I was eight years old, the same age as Obama was when Ayers and the Weather Underground were in the news.

Twenty-five years ago, when I was first involved in community organizations, if someone had invited me to chair an important committee, and introduced me to David Greenglass as a committee member, I wouldn't have had a clue to who he was, the name wouldn't have rung even the faintest of bells, and I would have seen no reason at all to investigate him further. Why would I? Why would anyone expect that Obama would have been any more aware of who Ayers had been, years before? Hell, even in the late '60s, "William Ayers" was hardly a household word. All of the charges against him were later dropped (because of FBI misconduct), while Greenglass got 17 years in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:07 AM

Not to mention the fact that Ayres was put on that board by the Annenburgs who were Republicans and had ties to Ronald Reagan. Does that make Ronald Reagan and the Annenburgs also terrorists by association? There were other Republicans on that board with Obama and Ayres. Does that make those Republicans also terrorists by association?

How about all of the people who are associated with Ayres at the university where he teaches (some of whom are Republicans)? Are they also terrorists by association?

This "guilt by association" thing is a very slippery slope, as they learned during the time of Joe McCarthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Thanks! but tho I wish I could honestly claim it, "fundagelical" ain't mine- I picked it up somewhere & wish I could remember where so I could give proper attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

What about that woman who killed the abortion Doctor? Is she a McCain associate?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

The Annenbergs donated money to the McCain campaign. The guilt by association thing is so silly I can't believe it has gotten this much traction.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

The woman who shot an abortion doctor in the arms has some connections to McCain. Someone who has worked on the McCain campaign at a local level has spoken publicly in support of the woman who shot the abortion doctor. So McCain has someone who has worked in his campaign who supports terrorists.