BS: Obama is a socialist

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

"...their accounts all corroborated, with each other..."

Lessee.... everyone who TOLD you that Obama supporters were naughty agree with each other.

Well...that sure convinces ME!........................... "giggle"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:45 PM

Fascinating. I originally posted the rockymountainnews video link with no editorial comment, but thought - to myself - that it showed McCain supporter tempers flaring if anything. But it is clearly a Rorshach test. People whose minds are made up (even if they claim that they are not) see what they want to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:07 PM

Oh, Dear TIA, How you and I used to scrap!.....I think you're showing glimmers of sanity..*wink*..I agree with your post. I guess news on the radio is unreliable, because nobody listens, and understands...they have to look at the pictures!

And all you exception takers, The people I talked to, were not any more McCain supported, or Obama supporters. The conversation never came up about that, till the end. As I said before(cups my hand around my mouth and yells across the mountains, and valleys) WITHOUT EXCEPTION, EITHER CANDIDATE SUPPORTER, OR NEITHER, DESCRIBED THE SAME THING!!!!

...walks down the mountain wagging my head, in dismay.............

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 PM

BACK ATCHA: I found no such account.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:13 AM

Prolific author and talk radio host Thom Hartmann calls Bernie Sanders "America's Senator," and I agree.   Bernie calls himself a democratic (small D) socialist (small S) and is registered as an Independent.   He is probably the most honest, ethical, and sensible of all our Senators, not beholden to any political party but loyal and dedicated to the ideals of our constitutionally limited democratic republic.

To call Barack Obama a "socialist" a la Bernie Sanders is a great compliment to Barack -- and a great exaggeration of the populist leanings he has shown so far.

But we can hope. : )

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:39 AM

ATF says it's broken up assassination plot targeting Obama
By Lara Jakes Jordan
The Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 10.27.2008
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/264373.php

Now, help me - the ATF is the mob that charged into a farm at Waco with tanks, helicopters and tear gas, resulting in the deaths of several?...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

The Waco incident began when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempted to serve a search warrant. They were turned away violently, and the subsequent attack on the compound was conducted by the FBI. Accounts vary, and blame for the subsequent loss of life has been assigned largely according to commentators' perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM

GfS- "You, being a Kucinich supporter, I would think so! He thought not too well of his opponent Obama, either. " But come convention time he gave a rousing speech urging Democrats to support Obama now didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

My man Dennis says, "Vote for Obama!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:49 AM

Well, I've told you how it is!..was!..You know, all, we have all witnessed the mood of the protesters, BOTH SIDES, and maybe you're all mesmerized by your computer screens, or perhaps you're thinking this is all light weight stuff, and a couple choruses of Kumbaya will make it all go away. Today on the news, (no pictures included), they arrested two bozos who were plotting to off Obama. Anybody home??? As I posted before, this is one of the nastiest etc etc, elections, I've ever witnessed, only second to Chicago, 1968. I guess this only matters, to you, if it can be reduced to 'win' an argument on a blog.

What many, don't seem to connect, either on the far right, or the far left, is that these tensions, are caused by the two options we have been offered. For those on the right, you may not realize, that if McCain continues Bush's economic policies, which seems to favor, the elite of corporations, the doors are left wide open for the economic disaster, with all its ills, that we have witnessed(with more to come), are only going to spiral inflation, and more government bailouts, and 'privatizing' of government services, coupled with the corruption that goes along with that.

What the left doesn't get, is that while Obama's poll number continue to hold a lead, (and at this point, it appears he is going to win), the stock market is plummeting. Why, you might ask?. Because with his programs, which include taxing capital gain taxes, and going after the 'rich'. , in addition to Obama raising taxes to fund his social(istic) programs. People who have invested in stock futures, know that it's time to bail from the market, and cut their losses. Now before your itchy fingers, get ready to argue that, take pause for a moment, and ask yourselves..was I able to buy the computer you're on, because of an economy that allowed you to afford to buy it,..or was it made possible by a government social welfare program??? Same can be asked about your instruments, you allegedly play?...among other things.

Either of the opposing sides see the flaws of the other side, without either side taking an honest look at themselves. It might make for 'fun' pseudo-intellectual debates on here, and other places, but it is splitting our country apart, and making the fears of both sides come true. Now, on the left, some Einstein, will put forth a bunch of theoretical, ideological rant of why what I posted is not true...that same smart-ass, never owned or bought or sold a piece of stock in his life, either. So let me clue you in, the markets are falling due to an anticipated Obama win.... and to continue the Bush's(read: Paulsen's) economic policies got us into this mess....... Either way, we are going to get more meddlesome, intrusive, police state type government.So, get energized!!..Pick your poison., and above all, sing Kumbaya, and have fun!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:00 AM

Sorry....duhh, hit the wrong key...

Well, I guess if Kucinich said to do it, as he was conceding defeat, instead of thinking it through, I guess you must obey!

In this particular 'election', I can't follow lock step, in line with either side. For me, the power is in the ball point sword!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM

That claim that the stock market is plummeting because Obama's doing well in the polls is propaganda that is being promoted to help John McCain get elected, and there's no truth to it whatever.

Look, one or the other of these two candidates is going to get elected. For some people it might be fun to sit on the sidelines and snipe at people who have a preference about which one gets elected, but for some of us, the consequences are very serious. Like, for instance, those of us with no access to health care. So we'll just keep on keeping on, while others get their jollies sniping from the sidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM

For Gfs' benefit, since he seems so fucking jaded.

I am a liberal. I own a few stocks and IRA's. I have not, nor will not bail on the market right now, as the money I have in those is, in essence, "found money." Does that make me an Einstein? Or does it just make me a PERSON who happened to invest some money?

I bought my computer the old fashioned way, the same as I buy all my major purchases. Saving until I could afford them, putting that money in a boring old savings account. It was not, as you so gleefully put it, through a government social welfare program. Simple math-computer costs lets just say $1000. Put away money for a month or two without dipping into your weekly expenses and bills, maybe eat out a little less, stop buying coffee in the morning out, and whammo-new computer in a short time.

You seem to like to translate your thoughts onto people with an awful lot of assumptions about them. You seem to like the labels as well, such as socialist. You don't seem to understand that, yes, a lot of people are struggling in this country right now, including my wife and I. She just started college again, at age 30. We pay our rent on time. We have savings. We are able to go out on the weekend. We are struggling, but you know what? We figure it out. I don't want to be paying $4 for a gallon of milk, or frankly $12 for a six pack of beer. But we do. It ain't always easy, but we do. So forgive me, if I believe that the burden placed on millions of people like us across this country, and those even worse off could do far, far worse, than have a re-evaluation of the way things are going right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:48 AM

Once again, you've got it wrong, and mistook what I've said. Carol, it's not propaganda...its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win. Step back and consider why. Hey, I'm not saying things are going to be rosy with a McCain win, either. But, by in large, most heavy investors are not wanting their investments to be taxed at a higher rate. Obama's programs are not perceived as being 'investor friendly'.

Irish, If you could read my post, accurately, you'll see, that you just said the same thing I did..you bought your stuff with YOUR saved money, NOT from a government program, that handed it to you.

Methinks you're a trigger happy arguer for arguments sake.
'A wise man hears ALL before he speaks' -Proverbs

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

The market is falling because people have lost confidence in it. And well they might, under the circumstances. We both know it's all smoke and mirrors, and because the fundamentalist capitalist ideologues decided to run it into the ground, people want to get back out of it what they put into it. It is now, and has always been nothing more than an colossal ponzi scheme, and none of the people who were playing in it want to be among the ones who end up being the chumps. That's why the market is falling. It has nothing whatever to do with Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

"...it's not propaganda...its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win."


                   It's a self-fulfilling prophesy: The market is falling in anticipation of an Obama win, and voters are supporting Obama because the market is falling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM

In order for anyone to believe that the market is falling because Obama's doing well in the polls, they have to ignore all of the other factors that have contributed to the total economic situation all over the world right now. Like the housing bubble, and the collapse of the housing bubble, the collapse of the derivatives market, and the collapse of large numbers of banks as a result of these things. I know blaming it on Obama is an attractive idea for people who are heavily invested in getting McCain elected, but it's just a fantasy and will only be bought by people who like to see the world in the simplest of terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

One thing that people who are promoting this idea fail to see (but many people with money to invest do not fail to see) is the fact that our economy is failing because it is stuck. It's stuck in an old paradigm that doesn't work any more. It's an oil based economy in an age when oil is becoming scarce. In order to maintain this old economic paradigm, it is necessary to wage resource wars all over the world, and to suppress whole societies and suppress peoples desire for, and striving toward democracy. This paradigm is good for enriching a few people at the top (spectacularly so), but it can't continue to grow indefinitely. Sooner or later it has to collapse like a house of cards. Which is what it's doing now.

The reason getting Obama elected will help the economy, is because he understands how to transition the country into the new economic paradigm. He understands that the economy has to move beyond the petroleum economy and into the green economy. That's where all of the future growth is. And once we are in the green economic paradigm, we won't need to waste vast amounts of money, resources, and human lives enforcing our stranglehold on the oil producing countries in the Middle East. When those vast amounts of money are freed up, they will be pumped back into the economy here at home, which will help it to grow even more.

The old paradigm is dead. The only question is how long people like the Republicans and their supporters are willing to wallow around in its corpse before they decide to let go and allow the rest of humanity to continue along in its natural evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM

Yes, we have scrapped. And it is largely because I find your writing style completely pompous, condescending, and dismissive...witness the repeated snide Kumbaya references (which I suspect are inserted intentionally to rile the very type of person who inhabits this forum). But, you might be a fine person in real life, so best regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:37 AM

its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win

This is th emost meretricious, off-the wall piece of illogic I have seen all month. Someone's been smoking fromt erh wrong end of the pipe, or sompn. This is loony illogic.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:06 AM

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- U.S. markets rallied Tuesday morning, joining markets around the world, as investors looked beyond recession fears and scooped up stocks hit in the recent retreat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

Well GFS-after re reading your post, in fact I do not interpret what you wrote as being the same thing that I wrote. Moreover, that I am a trigger happy arguer. Laughable, actually. You say, "Now, on the left, some Einstein, will put forth a bunch of theoretical, ideological rant of why what I posted is not true...that same smart-ass, never owned or bought or sold a piece of stock in his life, either."

Again, I say, as someone on the left, not particularly Einstein, but pretty bright nonetheless, not particularly ranting, but merely stating his own reality, ideological or otherwise, sometimes a smartass, but someone who has both bought and sold several pieces of stock and other types of investments which thereby disproves this theory you ascribe to that liberals somehow don't invest, again I say sorry but you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

Well the stocks sure ain't rising because of an anticipated Obama win!!!!

Here's what I wrote:
'What many, don't seem to connect, either on the far right, or the far left, is that these tensions, are caused by the two options we have been offered. For those on the right, you may not realize, that if McCain continues Bush's economic policies,....'

Do you see the word 'FAR', preceding the words 'left', and 'right'???

With Pelosi as well, (She and her ilk sure screwed up California's budget), there will come the most ridiculous tax increases for stupid programs, the planet has ever witnessed! California's economy went from sixth highest in the world, to bankruptcy with Pelosi, Boxer, and Feinstien...(Not up for a mindless debate either!)

Here's an appropriate video for you....listen to the lyrics!                        

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP1sQF7zRy8

As far as TIA's post....Hey, one man's ceiling is another man's floor!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

"ask yourselves..was I able to buy the computer you're on, because of an economy that allowed you to afford to buy it,..or was it made possible by a government social welfare program???"

I imagine for some people it's the first and for some people it's the second. All depends on circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Here's the full version by the group....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrm7ZQ0aMA&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM

Um, how did Pelosi screw up the California economy being a Maryland representative?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

The market is falling because George Bush (and John MacCain) has pissed away the country's resources on meaningless wars and spent all the tax dollars with armaments manufacturers who filled his election coffer.

You could have developed the car that didn't need petrol , but instead you pissed the money up wall and repeatedly voted for an idiot.

A calamity you seem to wish on your country once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

As a matter of interest, GfS, since Senators Feinstein and Boxer and Representative Pelosi serve in the US Congress rather than the California legislature, just how did they cause California's "bankruptcy"? In fact, none of them have ever served in California's Senate or Assembly. And, since Gov. Schwarzenegger has a line-item veto and can eliminate any "stupid programs" if he chooses to do so, can the fault for any fiscal crisis that exists there be given exclusively to either party?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

D'oh! more coffee needed. Please ignore my above post-(IE quietly leaves room embarassed!)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Frankly yes. The Republican party, rather like our own Tory party, loves the rhetoric of confrontation.

Such rhetoric is addictive and alluring stuff for all leaders of men. They get to strut and puff themselves up to feelings of great importance.

With Maggie Thatcher, it cost hundreds more lives in Northern Ireland, where a more conciliatory tone would have prevented a lot of bloodshed.

You'll have to work out your own body count, and the great advantages of George playing at being a 'wartime President'.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

1. McCain obviously belongs to the Josef Goebbels school of rhetoric. Give the idiots in your population something, or someone, to fear and you can easily persuade them to vote for Jack the Ripper. In Germany Adolf used the Jews as bogeyman. McCain isn't satisfied with just using the black card. He wants to scare Americans with something they REALLY don't understand, so he calls him a SOCIALIST.

2. Americans in general haven't a clue what the word socialism means, and see it as a threat to society. Basically, genuine socialism is about NOT sitting on your porch with a six pack and a pile of sandwiches, while watching your neighbour starve to death. It is about being prepared to offer a little of what you have to help someone less fortunate. From what I have read of the history of America, it was built on that kind of neighbourliness. But that was a long time ago, and you all seem to have forgotten how.

3. The mark of a civilised nation is not how advanced its technology, nor how large its assets. It is how well it treats its poorest, and most vulnerable citizens. In that respect the USA is at present no more than semi civilised. Obama my well turn out to be the man to change that, and deal with what is wrong at home, rather than attempting to be the world's policeman like his predecessor.

4. What you decide in this election, has ramifications for a large proportion of the world's population, which makes it arguably the most important vote in the history of your nation. Think hard about whether it is more important to fight foreign wars for control of other peoples' resources, or to fight at home against injustice, and bigotry.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

Perhaps, more English tea, and less Irish coffee, eh???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:21 PM

Sorry, forgot to include you post.......Joe!!!!....help!!!

From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

D'oh! more coffee needed. Please ignore my above post-(IE quietly leaves room embarassed!)

Perhaps, more English tea, and less Irish coffee, eh???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM

gfs, if that was intended as good humoured, I will take it with a smile. Mistake on my part, pure and simple. If it was not though, I do not like Irish coffee, nor the implication.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM

You have it all backwards, GfS... No, maybe you have in in-side-out... Whatever you have it it misses the cause of the current meltdown... We don't have a credit crisis... We have an income crisis... The American working class has been lost idexed purchasing power every year since 1982... The main reason for this is that Boss Hog (management) used the power of the governemnt in an activist/liberal manner to create laws and tax codes that favor the rich...

(But, Bobert, the rich create all those wonderful jobs...)

Okay, they create jobs... Wonderfull??? Not many and not any to speak of over the last 8 years in particular... It should also be pointed out that small firms with owners who aren't rich employ alot of folks, too...

But nevermind that...


What we have seen since 1982 is an erosion of investment in our own American working class... We don't make anything anymore since we shipped out all of our manufacturing equipement to Bamgldesk, Pakistan, China and India... So what do we do??? We consume... Problem is that as our spending power has gone down, down, down and Boss Hog (management) has used up alot of the tax breaks he got from Bush to ***lend*** to the working class and the working class is all ***borrowed out*** and this the housing bubble... Bad lending and bad spending....

So, bottom line is that the rich have screwed themselves while screwing the working class... The free market has not policed itself... It is like the fox guarding the hen house...

So, yeah... Call it socialism if you like but until we figure out how to stabilize the incomes of the working class this problem won't just magically disappear... This ain't a cycle... This is a dead-end... Now the US purdy much has to start from scratch and this time without the means-of-production and, quite frankly, not a citizenry who would even know how to use it...

So, yeah... There is still alot ot wealth in the country but it is going to have be used for the betterment of US all and not just the upper 5 ot 10% if we are, as a nat5ion, to survive... We are going to have to see that capital is used more responsibly... Owning 7 houses is not a responsible use of one's capital... Lending it to folks to pay for basic survival isn't a responsible use of capital...
Invetsing in overseas ventures to avoild paying taxes isn't a repsonsible use of capital... Hiding it in off-shore accounts isn't a responsible use of capital...

Face it, the rich don't give a rat's ass if they are being responsible stewarts of capital... That's is excatly where this vector of history has gotten us and now we are going to have to reshuffle... Call it socialism, if you want... Techincally, it won't be... It will just be responsible capitalism with laws and tax codes to make it so...

That's the real deal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM

Bobert, '(But, Bobert, the rich create all those wonderful jobs...)'

...and give them to those illegals, Because those 'silly Yanks' don't want them(??)......

...but they don't need them,..all the paying ones got shipped overseas!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

Irishenglish,...Surely it was meant in jest..I have absolutely NO animosity, or ill will toward any of the bonehead musicians in here!!

Shit, look how much material I've given them!!!...but alas, a lot of them can't see the forest for the trees!

oh yeah..drink tea then....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM

Those "illegals", GfS, are working for $12 an hour with no benefits... But nevermind that... The illegals have nothing to do with the premise I laid out... Nothing at all...

Well, come to think about it, they do... Whereas the average Anerican weorker has suffered from a 30 year downward wage spiril that $12 an hour still seams like a lota money to folk from El Salvidor or Mexico... Guess that does prove my above point about the US economy suffering from a wage crisis...

But, regardless, the illegals aren't running the machines that produce syuff because all those machines are long gone... Yup, packed into sea containers, put on the boat and are now being run by Pakistanis...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest From Sainty
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:47 PM

Yes, Bobert I agree with you......it's part of the whole scheme of things...It's taken both parties to hoodwink the public to make it happen too!!...Watch, they're not done yet......

remember, don't B flat...B sharp..but B natural!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:55 AM

Sarah Palin is a socialist.

John McCain is a socialist, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

Yeah, there is no doubt that Palin is a socialist... She's even sent checks out to the citizens rather than use the money for infastructure??? How amny governeors have been in position to do that??? Well, none... But no other state recieves as much per capita pork dollars as Alaska...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:44 AM

Of course the downside of saying "Obama is a socialist", from the point of view of those doing this, is that it's liable to mean an awful lot of Americans deciding that, if Obama really is a socialist, socialism can't be such a bad thing after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Before this was a topic, in the media, or even on here, I asserted that both party's agenda were socialist(like over a month ago), to which I got ragged on. As it turned out, and as time tells..I was right again! In earlier posts, I likened the right and the left, as being in the ring with a boxer, who comes at you, with both a right, another right..and a left, another right, and a left..pointing out, that is was the same boxer. Anyone who can't see this, just isn't watching..before you get knocked out! I have also said, that a BALANCE between capitalism and socialism, is NOT a bad thing, and actually works well together!
The problem is, when either one gets out of balance, and dominates to a point of being either ruthless, or corrupt, as we have seen. Capitalism, in fact is not all bad either! Ever wanted to SELL your music?..or should the state own it, and dictate when and where it can be heard? On the other hand, do we like a monopolistic music industry, that limits our music, so it can't be heard at all?..in favor of some some 'commercial dumbed down trash'??
The fact that the market SHOULD dictate what is popular, is fine, but when the media forces (powers that be), in the mainstream, is guilty, of promoting 'dumbed down' trends and fads, just to sell 'dumbed down' junk, well that, to me, is capitalism in a socially harmful way! This applies to far more than music!!! take for instance the absolute crappy junk, we get from China's manufacturing sector (if you want to call it that), that we buy for cheaper, so the companies that have it made there, can increase their profit margins, for cheap labor! The product doesn't get better, the jobs and manufacturing base of our country, leaves our shores, which erodes both our productivity, and our ability to create wealth...instead of just printing more, worthless money!! These policies have been from BOTH sides of the aisle, under BOTH parties administrations...and its time we stop kidding ourselves! China doesn't even recognize our intellectual property rights!...This is not 'good' capitalism practices...from an 'out of balance' socialistic country....who is eating us alive......
ok....I'll get off the soap box, now....just thought I'd point that out...Its Balance!!!, not capitulation, or compromise!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

Rearn Barance!!!!!

Mr. Kesuke Miyagi

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Th existence of private property and private enterprise shouldn't be confused with a system in which corporate capitalism runs riot, and diminishes and destroys such things. It's a confusion that is encouraged by corporate capitalists.

That applies just as much when it is state capitalism rather than finance capitalism.

The existence of a significant public sector, including co-operatives and other forms, is in principle helpful to and even essential for genuine human-scale free enterprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

Obama / Ayers joint experience in public education:

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge: Successes, Failures, and Lessons for the Future
8/2003. Mark Smylie, Stacy Wenzel, Elaine Allensworth, Carol Fendt, Sara Ray Stoelinga (credited as Sara Hallman), Stuart Luppescu, and Jenny Nagaoka

From the 1996-97 through 2000-01 school years, the Annenberg Foundation awarded special funding to as many as 210 of Chicago's public schools, 90 percent of which were elementary schools. The funding, which had also been provided to cities such as New York and San Francisco, was part of a large-scale local school reform philosophy that intended to improve student achievement and other social and psychological outcomes. In Chicago, the Annenberg Challenge reflected a democratic localism that placed great faith in the ability of local schools, in partnership with parents and their communities, to develop their own strategies to achieve professional development and instructional goals.
    In order to determine the value of such reforms, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge funded a five-year analysis of the program, led by Mark Smylie, Stacy Wenzel, and a specialized Consortium research team. This team received guidance from a diversified base of local and national researchers and educators, including dozens of Chicago Public School (CPS) teachers.
    Drawing from student test scores, longitudinal surveys, and teacher and principal interview data, the Consortium team evaluated whether the Challenge catalyzed school improvement and student academic achievement, and investigated the myriad factors that contributed to these results. During the same period as the study, CPS implemented its own set of major reforms, including high-stakes testing, increased emphasis on basic reading and mathematics skills, and the end of social promotion. As a result, this report also examines the ways in which the Chicago Annenberg Challenge's goals conflicted with those of CPS, and how those conflicting policies may have helped or hindered students' and schools' success. Understanding these outcomes will inform future large-scale school reform initiatives and their implementation at the local school level.
    This is the final technical report of a series of publications on the Annenberg Challenge that began in the summer of 1998. The series of technical reports on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, along with a series of special topic reports that examine particular areas of school development, student outcomes, and change strategies, are listed below. Reports in both series are available to the public, and the most recent reports may be downloaded for free as PDF files....

.....The Challenge's "bottom line" was improving student achievement and other social and psychological outcomes. Our research indicates that student outcomes in Annenberg schools were much like those in demographically similar non-Annenberg schools and across the Chicago school system as a whole, indicating that among the schools it supported, the Challenge had little impact on student outcomes...

There were no statistically significant differences between Annenberg schools and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain.

Across Annenberg schools, student academic engagement was only slightly greater in 2001 than before the Challenge. Classroom behavior, students' sense of self-efficacy, and social competence were weaker in 2001 than before the Challenge. Like student achievement, there were no statistically significant differences in these outcomes between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools.....

Ayers speech in Caracas 2006:

"This is my fourth visit to Venezuela, each time at the invitation of my comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice. Luis has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and I've come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle" I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, Luis, for everything you've done.
    I also thank my youngest son, Chesa Boudin, who is interpreting my talk this morning and whose book on the Bolivarian revolution has played an important part in countering the barrage of lies spread by the U.S. State Department and the corrupted Northamerican media.......
......Viva Mission Sucre!
Viva Presidente Chavez!
Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

"The Annenberg Foundation, a charitable family trust, was created on July 1, 1989 by media magnate and former Ambassador to the Court of St. James's Walter H. Annenberg."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

"In John McCain's newest Web ad, he attacks Barack Obama for supporting a "radical education foundation" that gave millions to "idealogical allies" that resulted in scant improvement in the quality of public schools.

He was referring to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, detailed by my colleagues in this EdWeek story and this sidebar story.

McCain, who has criticized Obama for his ties to William Ayers, one of the founders of Chicago's Annenberg project, is now associating with the very foundation that funded the "radical" work.

His campaign sent out a press release listing all of the former U.S. ambassadors who support him.

On his supporters' list: Leonore Annenberg, 90, who was chief of protocol in the Reagan White House and is the president and chairman of the Pennsylvania-based Annenberg Foundation. She is the widow of Walter H. Annenberg, the late publisher, philanthropist, ambassador, and founder of the Annenberg Challenge."

..."You know what else "we know" about "candor?" Lenore Annenberg, wife of Amb. William Annenberg, who founded the Annenberg Foundation on whose board Barack Obama and William Ayers sat, gave money to and endorsed Sen. McCain for President. Does that mean that John McCain supports domestic terrorism since Annenberg chose Ayers for his board? Of course not. I agree with Rachel Maddow and Michael Scherer on this one: all of this Ayers stuff is pure nonsense. "

"McCain-Bill Ayers-Annenberg -Friend That Trust Each Other or What? McCain Trumpets Endorsement From Figure Of Foundation That Established Ayers Board
stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust mixx.com
October 8, 2008 11:55 AM
On Wednesday morning, John McCain's campaign released a list of 100 former ambassadors endorsing the GOP presidential nominee.

Second on the list, though her name is misspelled, is Leonore Annenberg, currently the president and chairman of the Annenberg Foundation and widow of ambassador and philanthropist Walter Annenberg. Ms. Annenberg was herself the "chief of protocol" at the State Department under President Reagan.

If the last name sounds familiar, it's because it also graces the name of the Chicago education board where Barack Obama and William Ayers sat in the room six times together.

In recent days, the McCain-Palin ticket (and particularly Palin) has faulted Obama for having served on that board with Ayers, who was a founding member of the radical 60's Weather Underground group when Obama was in grade school.

Since then, however, Ayers has been rehabilitated in Chicago society, carving out a niche in education circles. As a former Republican representative in Illinois told NPR on Monday, smearing Obama for his board association with Ayers is "nonsensical."

"It was never a concern by any of us in the Chicago school reform movement that he had led a fugitive life years earlier ... It's ridiculous," Republican Rep. Diana Nelson said. "There is no reason at all to smear Barack Obama with this association. It's nonsensical, and it just makes me crazy. It's so silly."

..."

From assorted websites in a quick search.

Sawz, you and your right-wing co-vampires in residence are just gonna have to do better than that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

"In 1995, Bill Ayers was part of a team that helped create the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an education reform project that worked with half of Chicago's public schools. Barack Obama, then working as an attorney and law school professor, was elected chairman of the eight-member board of the CAC.

We also now know how much money the Annebergs pumped into the CAC:

..the CAC was funded by a foundation belonging to Walter Annenberg, the billionaire Republican philanthropist who served as Richard M. Nixon's ambassador to the U.K. Annenberg and his wife, Leonore, gave the CAC $50 million in the 90's.

If it's acceptable to play the "guilt by association" card, then Anneberg funded a terrorist with $50,000,000. Other recipients of Anneberg money includes:

But Walter and Leonore weren't just giving money to educational foundations started by William Ayers. They were also giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Republican National Committee and various other Republican groups, as well as to a whole host of Republican candidates, including the following:

   * George W. Bush       $4000
   * Mitt Romney       $5000
   * Strom Thurmond       $1000
   * Fred Thompson       $500
   * Rick Santorum       $3000

Now here comes the "off message" blunder by the McCain campaign. Check the Press Release they released last Thursday. The title is as follows:

100 U.S. Ambassadors Endorse McCain-Palin   

Further in the Press Release, note the former Ambassador the McCain camp is trumpeting:

">..they have in the historic McCain-Palin ticket."

FORMER U.S. AMBASSADORS FOR MCCAIN-PALIN

Lenore Annenberg, Chief of Protocol -- Radnor, Penn."

That's right folks, that Leonore/Lenore Annenberg, she of the Annenberg Foundation, the funders of the CAC and financial backer to a known terrorist.

How does that "guilt by association" argument look now?..."

(DailyKOS)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Amos, dear ol' Amos, good ol' buddy in musical taste.......By your own post, you point out a connection (Annenbergs, for ONE)that there mutual associations and connections between the far right, and far left, in the higher echelons, ok??..What have I been telling you all along??? Some of these connections, have a higher agenda, and the funds to 'fund'(read: bribe, or even buy)influence national policy. The very fact that they can use their moneys to over ride true representation of constituents from being represented, in a Democracy, is in fact corrupt! Your pal Obama, is just one of them. That in itself does NOT exonerate the FAR right, who accept funds...from the SAME people. Accepting money, by BOTH sides assures the 'benefactors' that whomever is in office, is MUCH OBLIGED!

As I have previously said, 'We in America, have the best politicians money can buy!'

...And watch them go through all the phases of denial, when they get found out. Usually, when that said politician, is of no longer use, or the charges are made...seldom do the ones who do the bribing are punished...just the politician. Look at Stevens...How about going after the oil company bribers, as vigorously!!?!!?

Hmmm ..Let's think now...something in common with Reagan and Obama??...something to think about....