BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car

Subject: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

I need some advice and fast.

Today was refuse and recycling pick up day at our flats. The car we have been trying to sell for over a month and which we finally got a deposit for on Saturday, was damaged today by 2 compost wheelie bins thrown up against the passenger side.

One bin (empty was against the wing mirror) and the second about a third full with compacted grass clippings was tipped on its edge against the the empty one. The wind was not strong enough today to put the bins in that position.

The wing mirror is now cracked badly. It was too dark to see if there is any other damage. We are probably going to lose the sale now, have to re-list £50 and insure for another month £33 as well as pay for repairs on a car we just sold for £580.

The car was parked legally and correctly with plenty of distance away from bin store so only person (council worker?) could have positioned them as they were.

I am so angry I turned the air blue for he 1st fifteen minutes home from work this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

Good luck proving it.

Try a junk yard for a replacement mirror - it's usually an easy fix - if that's the only damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

Artbrooks has it right.

We call them 'car breakers,' not junkyards, and one franchise, called 'Pick-A-Part' is organised so that different branches have certain cars, and for the payment of one dollar, you can enter and remove any part, paying for it on the way out.
That way, you know how to remove and install it.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:22 PM

Are there junk yards in the UK? I have never seen one.

I have already sent a very strong email to the borough council about this.

TheSilentOne (my spouse) checked for other damage to the door etc. Apparently a scratch on passenger door. Says it does not look too bad. But it is dark out so who knows. We ordered a wing mirror from Ebay and TSO is calling the purchaser to inform her of the damage.

Praying she will be ok with us replacing the wing mirror.

Was in very good condition prior to this. Few light scratches easily covered with TCut and few very small stone chips, cracked corner on number plate.

I am just burning with anger, that they did not leave a note. It is so obvious the wind could not have pushed a bin of that weight and leaned it precariously on its front bottom edge.
         
If I get no joy from council I will write to local news. We have had problems with the dustmen leaving bins in the middle of car park so we cannot drive in or out. Clearly they don't like their job. I don't blame them.   I understand that it is a thankless job, but there is no call for destroying someone's property and not owning up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM

sorry cross posted with Gurney.

I am cooling down now.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:26 PM

Did you photo the scene, for evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:27 PM

Dammit all anyway. I am not thinking and checking before submitting these posts. We ordered the mirror glass. Only the glass is damaged on the wing mirror and hopefully the scratch will be covered with TCut.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

It was dark. Wouldn't show in photo. The glass only costs £8.00. We already have the Tcut. Hope the buyer will be ok with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:35 PM

The Council would be liable to pay for the damage, if it waa done by the refuge collectors. Even if they weren't council employees, which is likely enough, now that everything tends to get laid off to outside contractors.

But might it not be vandalism rather than carelessness by the refuge collectors? Chucking dustbins around is the kind of thing some people seem to find enjoyable, for example on the way home from the pub.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

Not gotta flash?

From what I hear, Council are usually quite co-operative with complaints made against bad behavior by bin men, they take them quite seriously.

You will be getting the same crew each week, so Council will probably want to know if there's a repeat offender, and discipline the crew. Tho' I guess it all depends on how strict individual borough policies are.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:40 PM

Just re-read that first sentence, just outdid myself with bad wording!

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:54 PM

The car was parked legally and correctly with plenty of distance away from bin store so only person (council worker?) could have positioned them as they were.

Bingo, that is your first line of recourse-- the store. If they wish to push it farther along down the line of blame you can welcome that and motivate them to join your cause to insist on fair resolution.


Standard:

Document, document, document, and send copies of all correspondence to "officials" at every level.

Be sure to keep all comunications more than civil-- nice 'em to death. You never know when a person in the role of "blamee" actually wants to see you get every penny you can from their superiors-- and will help you get what is yours, in spades, from behind the scenes. Treat each person as an overworked, well-intentioned hoomin who wants to just have a good day, and show them how to have it.

No phone calls-- because you will have to write a verbatim for each one and send it via mail "confirming our conversation where you said X," at every turn.

No private meetings with anyone offering help, either-- always a neutral witness, just in case. You won't know when you need one till after it becomes a messed-up cluster-f*ck, and you can't predict who will make it into one till they show their true spirit in the action they (do or do not) take.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:12 PM

I don't expect recompense from the council. I do expect a reply.

After all if it only costs us £8.00 I have little to complain about.

As it happens, TSO talked to the buyer and she is happy to collect the car as planned this Wednesday and if the mirror has not arrived by then we will take around to hers and fix it.

CS- Now TSO wants me to flash him. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:27 PM

Susan - I wish the "nice them to death" tactic worked in UK. It does not.

I am currently trying to "nice" the Primary Care Trust into resolving issue of rudeness I suffered from receptionist at my GP Surgery (doctor's office).

I have to play it very cool if I do not want bad treatment from the clinicians as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:43 PM

"CS- Now TSO wants me to flash him. Thanks for that."

Are you two playing rudey 'hide and seek' games, in the dark with torches??!

...because it's definitely much more fun that way :)

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

Ahem, oh yes.. Glad it seems to be sorted. Good.
Also.. I'd suggest not reading my last "contribution" 'at' TSO.
You never know what kinds of complications it could get you into.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:13 PM

You don't nice them to make it work, but to keep your own butt covered. And it does sometimes work, too, in the most surprising places. (I know whereof I speak.)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:38 PM

Definitely nice them to death. . .and listen to them. I am going through a situation with my condo association. I want them to make it possible for me to run a cable connection to the basement and I wish to make it possible to suspend our kayaks from the garage ceiling.

Neither of these is currently possible due to the association's by laws. I attended a meeting to discuss the problem with them and bring a suggestion on how to resolve the issue. At the end of the meeting, I realized that they were just as frustrated at the way the bylaws were set up as I was.

As a result, I worked with them to suggest a generic amendment to the bylaws which will meet all of our needs. They are working with me to get the amendment through.

It often seems to work best if others are treated as though they are sincere in their efforts to do the best they can in a situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:32 AM

A look out the window this morning and I see the 5 green wheelies (paper glass and metal) on the other side of the refuse bin store are all helter skelter too. Somebody was not having a good day yesterday.

We will take photos today. But I doubt anything will come of it.

Thanks all for the "nice" advice. Will keep it in mind and try to put into practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Lox
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 03:35 AM

Don't get demoralized until you have given it a shot.

I know that "nice" can work with UK councils.

Talk to them as if they are mother tereza and you appreciate their selfless sacrifice, and then confide in an sad kind of voice "I mean I just don't know what to do other than start legal action".

Usually does the trick for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Michael
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 05:30 AM

The other day there was a knock on the door, a council lorry driver; 'Is this camper yours? Well I've just caught the side with wing mirror--'.
And it's now being dealt with. So some are honest.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:12 AM

We do have car breakers - there's one in Hrtley Bottom near New Ash Green, and another at Hawley alongside the A2 - with that frequency, there must be some near you - though I see you don't need one now.

I had a wing mirror broken by bin men - their vehicle was reversing up a street I had to pull into the side of, they swung the mirror out of the way to protect it, and it broke off. Denied responsibility.

They aren't cheap, are they?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 09:21 AM

If you don't regard tramping round filthy scrapyards in a long coat with big pockets as fun, try entering your car model plus "spares" or "parts" into Google (eg "Citroen AX Spares" - the quotes filter out some of the rubbish). It's surprising what you can pick up - some firms specialise in this method of selling bits.

Obviously not very practical if you want a new engine (the postie can't get it in his bike basket) but stuff like mirrors etc is easy. I got two immaculate sun visors for £20 inc postage - Citroen price, even assuming they still had any, would have been 50 quid or even more.

But has anybody got those plastic strips which go along the roof? No they blooming well haven't!

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

Our dustbin men generally seem pretty competant and friendly. And they seem to quite enjoy the work. And the only time I had a similar sort of problem, when a dustcart backed into my parked car and damaged it, the council accepted responsibility and paid up with no problems.

You seem to be expecting the council to play silly buggers over this, and you might of course be correct. But don't go anticipating difficulties, because that can often be a good way of finding them.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:37 PM

well had no response to the email I sent yesterday.

As said above the only the mirror glass broken and that cost only £8 on ebay. We don't have time or energy to go traipsing around a wrecker's yard so Ok with the ebay replacement.

Buyer is happy to let us replace when it arrives.

I just would like the council to acknowledge my concern. If I am not happy with outcome after I call tomorrow (I was minuting meeting today) I may write letter of complaint to local news and our MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:22 PM

Virginia:

IMHO the most important element of this story is your peace of mind. If you can obtain that, you've won. It is unfortunate and it has made your vehicle more difficult to sell and a bit less safe to drive. So I'm glad you're planning on a fix.

Finally, I'd write a hard-copy letter with some of your photos printed out and attached.

There is no guarantee it'll return satisfaction, but I think the act of expression to the authority will make you feel somewhat better and it will probably go somewhat further, as in some questions getting asked of the fellows on the route.

good luck to you!

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:39 PM

A couple of notes:
No one considers himself a bad guy.
It has been made clear to me that a petition signature is weaker than a phone call is weaker than a letter is weaker than a visit to the politician's office.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:57 PM

First of all, any glass company can cut a mirror to fit the mirror housing... It ain't tough...

Secondly, too bad you live in the UK...

Here in Virginia you could walk into an all night gun shop, pick up something cheap and wait for the refuse guys to come around and blow them away... That is the American way of handling these situations...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: maeve
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 10:59 PM

Hmmm........

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:48 AM

Thanks Bobert.

I was seriously considering taking a flexi day not next Monday but the one following when the recycling truck visits again and standing outside to watch them with a hard look on my face. See if any of them looked guilty.

I have that kind of Mother Knows What You Did glare that frightens, animals, children and adults. Much better than a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:31 AM

Bobbert!

....wait for the refuse guys to come around and blow them away... That is the American way of handling these situations...

Hmmmm ...... you do realize that what you just said has a wholey different meaning in the UK?
However it might just work!

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:42 AM

Lollers! Umm..

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:11 AM

A few months back, a bin lorry crashed into the back of our session pub & knocked a wall down.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM

I've used breakeryard.com on a few occasions to source spares... they take your details, and invite participating scrapyards to submit a quote.

I suppose it's not surprising that bin men are a little less than careful... not the pleasantest of jobs, I'd guess, and probably not very rewarding. No excuse, maybe, abd I certainly wouldn't want the job!

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:21 PM

This morning, a bin man in Cirencester, where it had been windy overnight, went round the garden of my Dad's house picking up the spilled paper and card from my and my neighbour's waste bags.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM

Hi Penny

I am glad you shared that. Evidently the same crew collects for a colleague who does not live far from me. And they go the extra mile, taking bins all the way back up the drive and setting beside the garage.

I had call this afternoon from the Refuse and Recycling Manager for the Borough who was very nice, apologetic and understanding. Said mine was not the first complaint. Said the crew has been spoken to, though no one owned up. Said he suspects it may have been one that has been reprimanded before and even been reported by his/her own colleagues.

Oh dear. I really hope this individual comes to grips with anger issues and/or recognises and amends his/her carelessness.

Anyway, I have direct email for the manager and he said send the purchase details for replacement glass and he will forward to insurance for remuneration.

RESULT!

ps A better result would be that person who did the deed find some happiness and respect for self and the job he/she does. So here's wishing for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM

So on Monday 16th Novenber the problem arises, and Virginia sneds an email telling the Council.

On Thursday 19th the relevant Manager gets back to her, having investigated. He apologises on behalf of the Council, and accepts it responsible for paying for the damage.

Sounds pretty good to me. Just try getting a private firm, such as a bank, to be as helpful when one of their employees has screwed things up...

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: mg
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 06:36 PM

Where I live it could have been bears, a bad driver, naughty kids and terrible winds.

Subject: RE: BS: Refuse/recycling workers damaged our car
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM

When given the opportunity to do the right thing, a large proportion will--especially if they are answerable to the public. Then there's Wal Mart.