BS: Phrases that don't travel

Subject: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM

In a current thread it came out in the course of conversation that where in England people would talk about a way of handwriting as "joined-up writing", Americans would be likely to say "cursive writing".

The consequence, if that's true, being that the common way we in the British Isles talk about "joined-up thinking" - or the lack of it (for example in the way the Iraq occupation was so badly bungled in the aftermath of the invasion) can't make much sense in America.

Similarly the expression "scoring an own goal" can't make that much sense in a non-football (soccer) culture.

And I'm sure there must be lots of other examples where that's true. True the other way also, except that we are so exposed to Americana on the TV that we tend to pick up that stuff by a process of osmosis. Less likely perhaps to be left stranded in mid-sentence wondering what the hell the other person is talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:15 PM

Yes. Yesterday I noted the phrase 'swap out'. What does that mean? In context it meant that they were either going to replace one with another or they were NOT going to. ??

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

As noted in the other thread, neither 'joined-up' nor cursive would be common in American speech. People speak of hand-written notes or manuscripts. Cursive dates back to the 18th C., but it is found in manuals and books rather than in speech. Teachers would use it, but not to their pupils.

Terms from sports that are uncommon in North America of course would not appear in speech. I listen to the BBC News channel here and when the sports reporter announces cricket results, I am completely lost.

Soccer is now popular in schools, esp. with younger children, but they may not know the lingo used in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

In Oz, if not just saying 'handwriting', one might see 'cursive'...

"when the sports reporter announces cricket results, I am completely lost."

There is a version of cricket - now popularized as 'Beach Cricket' and also a slightly different form called 'Indoor Cricket' based on an old backyard variant called 'tip and run' or 'hit and run', where if you hit the ball you must run - sorta like baseball with a different shaped field ... :-)


Typo detected "There is a version of fricket" ... yeah, ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM

Swap in and swap out-
In data handling, when set of paged data sets are moved to auxilliary storage to real storage during execution of any job is called swap-in, The reverse is swap-out.
Or the two phrases mean transfer of the whole content from main memory to virtual memory and vice-versa.

Found in computer-speak. No, I didn't know either until I looked it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:48 PM

hmmm.. well, *I* have heard 'cursive' used often, since I did go to college and hung out with pretty well educated folks. I also heard 'handwriting' used to mean almost the same thing by almost everyone.

Oh, and "scoring an own goal" is quite well understood by now by anyone who watches soccer at all.

One thing, Kevin... I see an amazing number of TV programs here featuring English/UK (and Irish) actors and speech patterns & pronunciation. Comedy, drama...and science-wildlife documentaries are common...some with accents so pronounced that they distract me from the topic. I'm not sure who influences whom the most, but I do noticed how 'generally' reluctant most people are to change the way they say or do things from the way they learned in childhood.


"Swap out" almost always means 'take out one and put in another'. This 'usually' means an identical part, but can mean an upgrade.


I have watched documentaries where comments from both Brits and Yanks were edited in, with each pronouncing 'al-you-MIN-e-um' or 'PITza" (pizza) in their own way....sometimes at the same table. There's no 'right' way to spell or say something, but I do wish that more effort was made to tailor programs to the audience who will hear it.(that is, have the background announcer overdubbed, even when participants are using a language or accent that is hard to follow).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM

I found that phrases will travel a long way if your voice is loud enough....

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

Not me. I love to hear the different pronunciations and accents and would find it boring if they were all tailored for the audience.

"Cursive" has been used wherever I've been since I can remember, between teacher and students and elsewhere. I do say my handwriting sucks, but I mean that about ALL of my handwriting which comes out a combo of print and cursive looking like some kinda crazy chickenscratch, even though I know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

I agree- 'cursive' is very commonly used. It is not a high brow elitist word...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

Swap out has earlier roots before memory swaps, as in swapping out a burned out carb for a Hollis dual-barrel on a hot-rod in the 50's.

And cursive was well-known and widely used in common parlance in my part of New England in the same period.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

My point in the example was that, if you don't say "joined-up" in relation to writing, they won't be likely to be sure what "joined-up" means when it comes to thinking.

Another example might be, in a place where all the cars are automatic, imagery about "getting stuck in first gear" and so forth can't convey too much.

And the same kind of thing is liable to happen over time - if we all end up wearing foot gear with velcro fastening, phrases involving bootlaces would be marooned.

I'm sure there are lots of examples of that having happened, where we still use the terms,but with no idea of what they actually refer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:29 PM

script
cursive
hand writing
Those are all terms used here for the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM

Except they don't actually mean the same thing. Handwriting quite often isn't cursive/joined up.

But this is drift in this particular thread, as opposed to this thread - BS: Cursive writing outdated?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:40 PM

I remember "First Down" magazine referring to NFL coaches receiving their P45s, which I always assumed was inaccurate as the P45 is a specific Inland Revenue document in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM

That reminds me of another - we (in the UK) still use the expression "MOT", both in respect of car roadworthiness tests, and also metaphorically - "get a medical MOT". But of course there hasn't been a "Ministry of Transport for years. And I assume that when we use it to most Americans, they can't have a clue what we mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM

knock me up in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:26 PM

"knock me up in the morning."
Druther not; I dislike inuendos.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:33 PM

No, I'd have no idea what MOT means out of context.,,,but we have similar phrases...

"..., if you don't say "joined-up" in relation to writing,..."
...well, it can fairly easily explained with a little effort, if required. I react to 'joined-up' as a very NON technical phrase instead of a formal description. If I was designing a curriculum, I'd formally define the idea with a single word LIKE script or cursive, just because if has a more formal, official sound to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:47 PM

A word that I've come across in a book by a British writer that baffles me is "cor". Can anyone translate?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM

"Cor Blimey!" (or Gor Blimey!) is derived from the middle ages expression "God, Blind Me!", used as an exclamation of surprise
You may also hear "cor, love a duck!" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:00 PM

"joined up"? Rather redundant, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Tangledwood
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:03 PM

I'm sure there are lots of examples of that having happened, where we still use the terms,but with no idea of what they actually refer to.

There's an ideal opportunity to put in your two bobs worth.
Do young folk know why we "dial-a-pizza*"
* or other commodity for home delivery
Do they know which way clockwise and anticlockwise are?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

"cor blimey" is a bit like "gee whiz!", but with lots less history.

"Do they know which way clockwise and anticlockwise are?"

I actually know about 'widdershins'

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

I agree, Kevin.    Now, think of all the concepts people don't get when they are from entirely different cultures with intirely different native languages. Really helps me appreciate how challenging it is to be an interpreter.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:58 PM

Clockwise and counter-clockwise
"I knocked her up" in the US would mean you get someone pregnant.
"Under the bonnet" in the States would be "under the hood".
"Putting in the boot" has little or no meaning over here, but kicking in the balls does.
"Pissed" means irritated/angry, not drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:11 PM

Makes sense. One won't catch a metaphor if one doesn't know the original context.

Here in the States, "joined-up" is most likely to used to convey that one has enthusiastically "signed-up or signed onto" something, probably stemming from times of patriotic fervor involving war or the threat thereof, when young men rushed to "join-up" into the military.

The USA is so big there are also regional phrases that, while they may travel, don't do so without some thought or explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:24 AM

I had a lot of fun telling friends I'd brought them rubbers from England, with pictures of Andy and Fergie on them, since it was the summer they were married.

They were surprised to get erasers.

Not as surprised as the Oxford don, when I told him we wore jumpers to school all year round. What we wore, I'm told, are known in England as gym slips.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:36 AM

>"Pissed" means irritated/angry, not drunk.<

Our UK equivalent for irritated/angry is "pissed off". We often thus add a preposition to modify the meaning of a word ~ as in "joined up", as queried by one of you-over-there above.

A "jumper" here is a sweater or pullover, not a gym-slip.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

"I knocked her up" in the US would mean you get someone pregnant.

Same here in Australia - I blame the WWII US Forces .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:06 AM

I assume that "elevenses" is self explanatory, but do any people other than English and recent colonies really understand "tea-time" or "afternoon tea" - or indeed "tiffin-time"?

And what about Belisha beacons?

And I think a "four-way-stop-street" is unique to South Africa.

Legendarily Jowett cars used to use an advertising slogan "Built like a battleship" which was conceptually alien to the French.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:32 AM

I assume that "elevenses" is self explanatory

Not really. Is it a snooty block on a long street? An hour of the day starting with 11:00 and ending with 11:59? I think it means a meal, but I'm not sure of it, and it's far from self-explanatory.

I have been using "cursive" to mean, well, cursive, since 2nd grade (that would be ... um ... 1968-69, I think).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:02 AM

OK, I've recently learned what "joined-up writing" is, but I still don't understand "joined-up thinking." Is it a good way or a bad way to think?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:34 AM

""joined-up thinking." Is it a good way or a bad way to think? "

Depends whether you mean it in a positive or negative way .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:09 AM

Hmmm, Foolestroupe, surely you've heard "knocked up" in the sense of "very weary" or "exhausted"?

As in the poem

"He was driving Irish tandem, but perhaps I speak at random -
"I'd forgotten for the moment that you're not all mulga bred -
"That means he had his swag up through having knocked his horse up"

It can also mean brought them to the door by knocking on it.

And why doesn't this spell checker like "mulga"?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:14 AM

which came first?

The British phrase "Bless her/his cotton socks."

Or the south eastern US phrase "Bless her/his heart."

Both often delivered with intonation that really does not mean to "bless" at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:59 AM

Elevenses is a cup of coffee accompanied by a dry (not cream) biscuit taken at 11 am.

Afternoon tea is a cup of tea accompanied by bread and jam (probably damson jam or crab-apple jelly or gooseberry jam or jelly, not anything common like strawberry) and possibly some cake, taken at 4 pm.

How about "hit for 6" - or a "yorker" - or "that's got me stumped" - or "bowled a maiden over" - or "out for a duck".   I think "hat-trick" has become universal.

Is "levanter" (of a damp foggy easterly wind) known outside Gibraltar and southern Spain?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Anne Lister
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM

Tam, these days round here at least it's very simply just "aw, bless". Often used to describe a winsome but hapless child or adult.

I hope it was an ironic comment that "cor blimey" had less history than "gee whizz". My historic husband (that is, husband who is fascinated by history) was talking last night about the history of swearing. You could be in major trouble in past eras for blaspheming but not necessarily for sexually explicit language ... so "Cor blimey" was a necessary disguise. Today we've gone entirely the other way, so the F word and the C word are far more unacceptable generally than any way of invoking the deity.

"Script" and "handwriting" aren't necessarily forms of joined-up writing, at least as used here in the UK.

And, as it hasn't been clarified yet, "joined-up thinking" refers to ideas that actually connect with each other, so that reformers/politicians/teachers/managers actually work out how one innovation might affect another process. If only they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

'For God's sake shut yer gob and let yer ass ave a chance' I've heard many a Bristolian say but doesn't travel well.

'You can't educate pork' when someone does something really stupid or says something really ridiculous.

On the Bank Holiday weekend I travel with my Isle of Wight pal through Gloucester, Herefordshire, Brecon through to Swansea and back to Bristol. At the end of it I said 'God my backside is making buttons yer' meaning 'It has been such a long journey and my backside is numb.' I had to repeat what I had said to him so he could get the gist of what I was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:36 AM

Richard ~~ How many over here could explain the origin of Belisha Beacon, do you think?

To knock-up here also means to wake up in the morning, especially by knocking on the door or window. Northern English industrial town councils in the 19C-early20C used to employ a man who would go around working-class areas at about 5·30 a.m. with a long pole with which he would knock on the front upstairs windows to 'knock-up' the fathers of the families, who would sleep in the front or 'best' bedroom, and would soon after have to leave for work. This official was actually called 'the knocker-up', or sometimes, colloquially, the 'knocker-upper'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:47 AM

Joined-up writing = cursive writing. Joined-up thinking = cursive thinking? Probably not,probably the opposite in fact.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

Joined-up writing just means that it avoids too many non-sequiturs do it's the logic that joins up.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: JennieG
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

We called it "running writing" as distinct from "printing", i.e. writing in block letters.

Don't forget the term "cracked record"......."he went on and on like a cracked record".......it meant something in the days of 78rpms and even LPs, but not in this age of mp3s.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM

...let yer ass 'ave a chance

In Bristol, as in the rest of the British Isles, when written like that this would mean "give your donkey a turn".

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 10:45 AM

A "four-way-stop street" is certainly used in the US. It simply means that everybody at an intersection must stop before proceeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 10:57 AM

Let's see:

"Four-way-stop-street" is used in the US.

We now have "roundabouts" here, but the local drivers call them other names which are not for polite society.

"He's a whiz" is a usually a compliment, but "whizzing" is best done in the toilet and not the living room, unless you're talking about a flying toy whizzing around. The child playing with the toy could also be whizzing around, but you'd want to check to make sure s/he is dry.

A police officer arrests you or tickets you; if a cop nicks you you shouldn't have made s/he draw and fire his/her weapon and you should feel good that s/he wasn't a good shot. And you're lodged in jail, not gaol, after being taken to THE hospital, not just TO hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:08 AM

"I hope it was an ironic comment that "cor blimey" had less history than "gee whizz"."

ummmm...that was more of a hurried, poorly worded comment...Of course 'cor blimey' has the history. "Gee whiz" is just a recent Americanism...and not 'cool' to use among kids anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Gee whiz is not cool any more?

It wasn't cool when I was a younker, say 1940 to 1950.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:30 PM

Hummppff! *I* use it now & then...and it seems to carry it's own built-in context. Even those who barely recognize it get the meaning.

Golly gee whillickers!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:52 PM

Gee whiz, that's sad. Golly gee, I bet it's because of those darned moving pichers!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:07 PM

Quite a few references to the old money (UK) have survived. It's still common to hear "He's worth a few bob", or "Daft 'aporth"; and "Sing a Song of Sixpence" survives.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Becca72
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM

"cracked record" around my neck of the woods (northern New England) is "broken record" but means the same as sited above.

I ran up against one a couple years ago that was quite amusing. Traveled from Maine to Virginia with friends. We stopped to eat (at the Cracker Barrel, of course). We confused the hell out of the waitress with the phrase "all set". She asked if we wanted more coffee to which I replied "I'm all set", which around here means "I'm good" "no thanks" or "I don't need anything". Poor woman had no idea what I was talking about. She stammered for a minute or two before pouring coffee anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM

Lets talk

SHAG

When I was a teenager in a small town Virginia in the late 1970s Stevie Nicks (Fleetwood Mack) had a hairstyle, everyone was emulating in my high school.

It was called the shag, the Gypsy and the Gypsy shag haircut.

SHAGGING

When I vacationed in Myrtle Beach South Carolina in the mid 1990's I learned of a dance called Carolina Shagging


In the UK

the term SHAG stands for the sea bird also known as a cormorant

To SHAG and SHAGGING means the sex act.

I'd like to know how shagging became the common phrase for having sex?

And another thing.... in the US it is fine an dandy to tell someone "I'm waiting for my ride" or He's my ride." Don't say that here in the UK. Eyebrows are raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM

When I was visiting St. Louis a few years ago, I asked a sales clerk at Target where I could find a "cash machine" and all I got was a blank stare. Another clerk intervened: "You mean an ATM?"

In Minnesota, the first bank that introduced automatic teller machines used the trademark name "Instant Cash," and so everybody called them at first "Instant Cash machines," and later it was shortened for convenience to "cash machine." This became the standard generic term even when other brand-names appeared.

In other places, I think other terms were used for similar reasons.

I still like the term "cash machine" and I wish everyone would adopt it. I dislike calling things by letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

I saw a "Pluggers" cartoon recently where a grandma was teaching her grandson how to use her phone: "OK, now move your finger around the circle until it hits the little metal thing."

Meanwhile the kid was asking, "So how do you text with this?"

*

Someday people will be asking, "How did 'dial' come to be the word for punching numbers into a phone?"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:38 PM

When The Lewis Family of Georgia(fine gospel group) came to the Winfield Folk & Bluegrass festival in Kansas, they announced from the stage that if you bought their records, you'd get a free 'tote bag'....next performance they explained to the crowd what 'tote bag' meant. Seems THAT exact phrase hadn't traveled West past the mountains

Then, a woman I knew asked me if I had fun at "the blue-string plucking thingy"...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

An ATM in Britain is often known as a hole in the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:04 PM

If you asked about an "ATM" in Britain people would probably think you were talking about some disease.

"Cash point" I suppose is the offical term - but hole innthe wall is probably more commonly used.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM

Because that's what's left after the pikeys have visited with a JCB.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

"I still like the term "cash machine" and I wish everyone would adopt it. I dislike calling things by letters. "

Well, I sort of agree in principle, but the gadget does FAR more than give out cash. ATM stands for 'automatic teller machine', which describes what it is better. Maybe call them 'wall banks'?

Phrases like 'mobile' in he UK and 'cell phone' here are similar. 'Mobile' could refer to many things unless you know the context...'cell phone' is a bit more specific, as it says phone and also refers to the 'cellular grid' that the technology employs.

I usually prefer terms that have at least some etymological indication of the meaning... 'knickers' means almost nothing to me, although I have since learned its referent.
-----------------------------------------------

Here in the US, I once worked in a grocery store where I was told to 'get a Listo' and mark those items. Blank stare....turns out Listo was simply a brand names for a 'grease pencil', a kind of marker with an extrudable core of dyed wax.

In the UK, the term 'Araldite', a registered trademark of a type of epoxy, is used as a generic term, like Kleenex, a trademark of 'tissue for nose blowing' often is here.


My personal wish is for everyone to use whatever term is common at home, but to try to be aware of the generic terms and be ABLE to translate their own slang and vernacular when traveling or greeting strangers who may not share the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM

"knickers" - it's an abbreviation from "knickerbockers", which I gather got its meaning of baggy pants from the illustrations by Cruickshank to a book by Washington Irving back in 1848, which had as its pretended author a Dutch New Yorker, Diedrich Knickerbocker. The word has settled in England as the normal word for underpants, but I believe it isn't used much in the States where it came from.

I hope that's enough etymology to be going on with...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:35 PM

Yep... a strange route from a fictional character to generic 'underpants'..(usually just women's?)

Over here, we occasionally hear the comment "Don't get yer knickers in a twist", but in a store catalog, you'll likely just see 'panties' advertised.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

Well, how about "bank machine" or "teller machine" or just "teller?" There could be human tellers and mechanical tellers. If I'm in a Target store and asking for a "teller" I think they could figure out that I was talking about a machine, not a person. (Actually, I wouldn't care. If they had a person who was willing to give me cash, I'd accept that, too.)

Was "cashpoint" originally a brand name? (Like "Hoover" for vacuum cleaner?) If not, I wonder: who coined that particular term and how it came to be accepted as the standard term?

By the way, I notice that recently "Sharpie" (a brand name) has come to be the common term for what we used to call a "Magic Marker" (another brand name)--a marker in which liquid ink flows out of a porous solid tip.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:54 PM

...and which we later called a "felt pen." The material was originally felt but later it changed to porous plastic, and we still called them "felt pens."

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:59 PM

Well, I sort of agree in principle, but the gadget does FAR more than give out cash. ATM stands for 'automatic teller machine', which describes what it is better. Maybe call them 'wall banks'?

hhmmm automated.... What if we call them job stealers?



shame on you Richard... I am quite shocked and disappointed by that comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

I suppose it is a goal of any company to come up with a product name that is adopted as the generic term... 'Coke' came close, Viagra is close, Sharpie is pretty close....and I shake my head in wonder at 'Hoover' gaining the generic term in the UK. What DO they call a Dyson, which I believe IS English?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

My ex-wife, who had worked at the US branch of Cambridge University Press, sent a memo to the home office about her office's personnel attending a conference. She wrote that "to maintain normal office functioning, the staff attended in various shifts and combinations"---which seemed to really impress the home office.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:38 PM

At least they weren't naked, Dick.

Mike; sticking his two penn'orth in.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:49 PM

A Dyson is called a Dyson - and so is anything else that resembles it. The rest still get called Hoovers.

In the same way "Thermos" is the term for Vacuum Flasks. Even when they aren't actually vacuum flasks, but just insulated some other way.

And ball point pens still get generically called Biros.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:10 PM

kleenex

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM

The Australian hair removal product advertised in the
USA called "Nads". Did they come two in a package?




A.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 12:24 AM

>>.and which we later called a "felt pen." The material was originally felt but later it changed to porous plastic, and we still called them "felt pens."<<

Or [more commonly is my impression] 'felt tips'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

I think felt tip is what we too in the US call them.

Funnily enough I hadn't connected the companies with Magic Marker and Sharpies. I was thinking in terms of the tips- that a Sharpie has a narrower tip than the MM?

humph Learn something every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: JennieG
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:32 AM

Many many moons ago when felt tipped pens first came on the market in Oz the brand name was "Texta"......many folk of my generation (Himself included) still refer to all felt tipped pens as textas.

Me, I just call them felt pens.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Micca
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

The term "Hole in the wall" for an ATM has become so wide spread that at least one major UK Bank (Barclays) actually labels them so!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:40 AM

Re VirginiaTam's post 02 Sep 10 - 02:16 PM

A Shag is also a British seabird - (Phalacrocorax aristotilensis)

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM

"The common cormorant or shag
Lays its eggs in paper bags" ... or something along those lines. I was on a boat trip off the isles of Scilly once when the skipper explained the difference between a cormorant or shag. He said we had to count the feathers on each wing. As the sea was far from calm at the time and we were some distance from the birds in question this was not intended as a definitive statement of any kind and I think was one of his attempts to distract us all from sea-sickness, but it's stayed with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:27 AM

Does that give rise to the saying
"He couldn't shag his way out of a paper bag"?

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Micca
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Purely In the interest of completeness Of course,
The Common Cormorant
The common cormorant (or shag)
Lays eggs inside a paper bag,
You follow the idea, no doubt?
It's to keep the lightning out.

But what these unobservant birds
Have never thought of, is that herds
Of wandering bears might come with buns
And steal the bags to hold the crumbs.
-- Christopher Isherwood

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:59 AM

Bringing up the ATM again, here in Indianapolis the bank that had them called them The Money Mover. That bank was absorbed by another bank, and that one by yet another, and maybe another, and those machines are just ATMs now, and have been for a long, long time.

But after--what, 35 years?--I'll still tell my wife, "I'll be back in a little bit; I'm going down to the Money Mover."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:54 AM

Then there are phrases that aren't apt to travel outside the southern U.S., such as "mayonaise"

as in, "Mayonaise some ugly wimmin in 'iz bar t'not."

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:39 PM

As I've always heard it:

The Common Cormorant
The common cormorant (or shag)
Lays eggs inside a paper bag,
The reason why,there is no doubt?
It is to keep the lightning out.

Excellent! When there are variants it means it's become part of an oral tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mkebenn
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM

What on earth does "who's your uncle" mean, I think I heard "there you go", but how does that work? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

Hi Mike

I did say in the UK The shag is a seabird aka the cormorant.

In the US I never heard the term shag used for a cormorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:40 PM

No problem VirginiaTam

It's just that I'd never typed Phalacrocorax aristotilensis before and I quite like aristotilensis as a word.
I could get quite philosophical about an Aristotleian shag.

According to Wikipedia: The bird family Phalacrocoracidae is represented by some 40 species of cormorants and shags.

And shouldn't be confused; how DO you confuse a cormorant?

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM

"I could get quite philosophical about an Aristotleian shag."

Definitely not to be confused with a Platonic relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:46 PM

... or even an Archimedes' screw!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Tangledwood
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

What on earth does "who's your uncle" mean, I think I heard "there you go", but how does that work? Mike

"Bob's your uncle" used to be a common enough term to indicate that a task is easily accomplished so are you looking at a variation of that? I have no idea of the origins of the Bob one though.
Example of usage - wrap the guitar string round the peg a couple of times, thread the end through, and Bob's your uncle.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Cut to the chase"- Often heard now, it means cut out the preliminaries, and get to the heart of the matter. Kids here use to mean "get to the point."
Used in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:10 PM

Used in UK should have a question mark; it is common in US and Canada and I was wondering if it was used in UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM

oohhh I got curous about cut to the chase and thought it must be something to do with screen directions for early films

I was right!

snip

This phrase originated in the US film industry. Many early silent films ended in chase sequences preceded by obligatory romantic storylines. The first reference to it dates back to that era, just after the first 'talkie' - The Jazz Singer, 1927. It is a script direction from Joseph Patrick McEvoy's novel Hollywood Girl, 1929:

"Jannings escapes... Cut to chase."

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:25 PM

just realized I probably learned that recently from Disc World Moving Pictures... damnn

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mkebenn
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:45 PM

Tanglewood. Yea, that's it, but that doesn't make any sense, either, 'course I heard it from a Canadian..lol. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 03:41 PM

The phrase is popular in both the U.S. and Canada.
The same movies are shown in both countries, and Virginia Tam's explanation is supported by Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang, which I just looked at.
But is it used in UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

confession: I HATE phrases like "Bob's your uncle" which have been crammed into the language and which have little or no meaning out of context.

I like to be able to SEE the relevance of the phrase without having to absorb it thru the pores.

pedant? sure.....

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:03 PM

My Dad used to say "Strousers" as he thought it was more polite/less blasphemous then "Struth" (God's Truth).
So now we're back to lower body garments: apart from knickers we might say pants (as meaning underwear), whereas, I believe pants in the US are what we call trousers!
And I think what we call Durex is like Sellotape (sticky tape)in Australia?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM

..and here in the US, a brand name is 'almost' always used as the generic. We say "Scotch tape" to cover half a dozen different formulations of it....and we have to ask "which type of Scotch tape?"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM

Scotch tape is a registered trademark and applies to the pressure-sensitive transparent cellulose tape marketed by the 3M corporation.
It was invented by Richard Drew, a banjo-playing engineer working for 3M, in 1925. 3M added other pressure-sensitive tapes to the line.

One can only wonder what kind of tape Drew would have invented if he had been a tuba rather than a banjo player.

Cellophane is another trademarked name, owned by Innovia Films Ltd., Cumbria, UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 07:12 AM

Dave McKenzie:
Archimedes didn't have any principles; he just liked a screw.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 08:29 AM

That's not pedantry on your part, Bill, it's idiosyncrasy.

Pedantry is about getting things right, not about whether you like them or not. "Bob's your uncle" is perfectly OK in pedantic terms."Bill's your uncle" would not be.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 08:40 AM

'Bob's your uncle' is usually followed here (in Ireland) with 'and Fanny's your auntie'. The US and UK/Irish have different opinions about the nature of the fanny by the way.

An American musician visiting here let it be known he was looking for a ride. Two girls (separately) offered and he was baffled to find they didn't have cars.

The Dutch call 'roll your own' tobacco shag-tobacco. During the eighties I saw many a Dutch woman travelling in Ireland offering a smoke to people they met. 'Want a shag?' Big grins and 'Yes, please. Don't mind if I do' the usual response.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

I just read "the full nine yards" on another thread and thought it could go here . Is it from baseball or American football ?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:31 AM

neither Mayomick

info on the whole nine yards

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:51 PM

The Full Monty, of which more below:

The common cormorant or shag
Lays eggs inside a paper bag
The reason you will see no doubt
It is to keep the lightning out
But what these unobservant birds
Have never noticed is that herds
Of wandering bears may come with buns
And steal the bags to hold the crumbs

by Christopher Isherwood, from "Poems Past and Present" pub. J. M. Dent and Sons (Canada) Ltd.

I'm late to this thread, but I do recall at infants school in about 1963 (when aged about five or six, I don't know what grade that would be in American terms), that we would be graduating in the next year from gouging crude letters clean through the exercise book into the desk top with a pencil held in the manner of a welding rod, into doing "joined-up writing".

I don't ever recall hearing the term "cursive" writing. Had it ever been used before the collection of horrors who were my classmates, they would probably have asked, "Is that the same as rude, miss?"

The "Full Monty", meaning the whole thing, stems from the British dress hire firm Montague Burton, or "Monty's". Depending on the formality of the occasion, you could hire any or all of a formal suit. The whole outfit was the "Full Monty".

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:53 PM

Agh! The last poster was me, sans cookie. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM

A phrase that I hear a lot here in Bristol is okey dokey. My mate had only ever heard that on his travels in India and surprised to hear me say it. So how did we end with that expression I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 07:17 AM

Patsy, origin of Okey Dokey

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:28 AM

Okey dokey ,the whole nine yards is military slang for "the full monty" which is also military slang. The military does come up with more than its share of slang words for some reason or other.

Ok is a word that definitely does travel . I can understand how Indians might have thought they came up with it first - Nigerians I've spoken to claim it as a west african word.
Is there a term for the coming together of words from different languages that have similar sounds , but which come from different meanings in the source languages ? A bit like a mondegrene . Sorry for sounding convoluted ,here's an example.

Irish speakers will tell you that the word shanty comes from the Irish words shan + ti = old house.

Dictionaries give a different origin:
"rough cabin," 1820, from Canadian Fr. chantier "lumberjack's headquarters," in French, "timberyard, dock," from O.Fr. chantier
Which is right ?

Whoever is right , a french speaker would have understood an Irish speaker and vice versa because , whatever the etymology ,they were talking about the same phenomenom - ie poor housing . When the new word "shanty" arose it was on the basis of this shared sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM

Thanks you for the link, that was really interesting. There are a number of phrases even if the variations are slightly different but basically the same so perhaps they do travel well. With the ease of access to travel and communication now I suppose we are picking up sayings from friends and acquaintances.

I have heard and used all of these;

A Dab Hand.
The bigger they are the harder they fall (The bigger they come the harder they fall).
Use a bit of Wellie.
Woe betide you.
Once in a blue moon.
Another one here is; Act your age not your shoe size
A big girl's blouse.
If you break your leg don't come running to me (mother to child).

Interestingly enough phrases like; Enough to freeze the b**** off a brass monkey and Chock-a-block (Chockers) were from Seafaring origins which explains why it's used in Bristol being a historical port back in the day.

Although not a follower I do like the bible phrases and also proverbs. My dad if he was exasperated with someone's behaviour, logic or unreasonableness, he would just quote the shortest phrase in the bible 'Jesus wept.'

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM

"That's not pedantry on your part, Bill, it's idiosyncrasy."

*grin*..ok, I see... it's pedantry on YOUR part, Kevin.

(thanks anyway... I like being accurate, and I do get in a hurry here.)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bettynh
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Mayomic, the term is probably folk etymology. Appropriate here, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM

Thanks Betty ,that will do nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 01:53 PM

Well, I declare! Often used by Americans (mostly women) from the South as answer to a juicy bit of gossip or the telling of an unusual event.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

"Well, Ah de-CLAY-uh!"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 06:09 PM

And its companion phrase- Is thayt righ-ut?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM

My sister-in-law once surprised me when she said she was looking for a "time machine."

She was actually saying "Tyme machine."

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 01:06 AM

Many years ago, I was waiting with a crowd of students outside a classroom. The wait was going to be long. One young man asked the girl next to him, "Want to play hangman?" The girl said, "No, but I'll play Hang the Butcher with you." Both were surprised to discover they were talking about the same game.

I don't know why Hangman is called Hang the Butcher in Western Pennsylvania, but it is. We call cream horns ladylocks and rubber bands gum bands.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Micca
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:14 AM

LadyJean, I suspect the "gum bands" might be due to the German language influence as the German for "rubber" is gummi!!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:15 AM

Further to mine of 2 Sep 04.36 AM, note the song in DT called "The Knocker Up".

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM

I notice that no-one has mentioned the British phrase: "As queer as a nine bob note".

You see, in pre-decimal times a pound was made up of twenty shillings and the colloquial name for a shilling was a 'bob'. There was a pound note and a ten shilling (i.e. 'ten bob') note. Hence the above phrase means something strange or unusual with connotations of illegality.

Then the meaning of 'queer' changed ...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:25 PM

My son (17) recently came up with these :

'I am as sick as a plane to Lourdes'

'It's as noisy as two skeletons riding in a biscuit tin'

'She's as mad as a bag of spiders'.



not sure if they'd travel

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:59 PM

Well, when my friend Peggy lived in Western PA she'd redd up the house. Folks in Cincinnati eat geatta (sp. is wrong) and Spaw probably does too. I grew up eating panhaus. A tramp wasn't a walk, but a man who lived by begging and stealing and had no fixed abode (a hobo is not and was not a tramp). "Shelter" was defined by its use: bomb, picnic, tornado -- and the last was also called a "storm cellar".

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Becca72
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

Shim,
Around these parts (Northern New England) the phrase is "queer as a 3 dollar bill". Same meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

During the worst dust-storm in history in the Depression years (known as Black Sunday), one old timer said that the sudden onset dust-storm was blacker than three midnights in one jug.

That was the same storm that inspired Woody to write the apocalyptic "So Long, It's Been Good to Know You". He was working in a burger stand or something like that the day it hit in the Oklahoma panhandle.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: gnu
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM

A while back, in a PM, I said to Max, "Fuckin A!", which means, in these here parts, "Fuckin A number one!" or "That's great!" or "Thanks!" or...

His next PM was to the effect of, "Why did you call me a Fuckin Asshole?"

I roared laughing and replied quickly with the explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:51 PM

Hi Becca72,

Thanks for that.

I'm fascinated to learn that you have a similar phrase in your part of the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Anne Lister
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:57 PM

Rapaire, the word "tramp" as used here in the UK is the usual word for a person of no fixed abode as you describe ...but can be used to describe a walk. So there's an old, old response to "I went for a tramp in the woods" with the old chestnut "Why, what did he do to you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: terrier
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:58 PM

Some years ago, I remember Telly Savallas being interviewed on UK Radio talking about golf. He stunned the interviewer to silence by saying he'd hit the ball and struck an onlooker on the fanny. Oops!

I guess the nine bob note would be payment for the services of the Irish Tenner (old joke).

I'm just about old enough to remember purchasing goods at the local shop and 'putting it on the slate'. Did that one travel well?

'It's as noisy as two skeletons riding in a biscuit tin' reminds me of the Aussie song 'Rye Buckshearer' that has the line "with a voice like a Billygoat dancing on a tin" :)

Wasn't it Pa Kent who's favourite / favorite saying was 'Jumping Jehosaphat', where did that one come from?

If you ever find yourself in Liverpool (UK) city centre and ask for the hole in the wall, your more likely to be directed to the pub of that name than to an ATM.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

gnu... that is one phrase I should have mentioned, as it is one of my pet peeves.

The original was fucking AYE!, (or 'fuckin' aye). I have posted about it before on Mudcat. '

Saying 'A' makes little sense, but 'aye', meaning yes or sure or right is obvious. But, I suspect that there are those who saw the phrase in print, or had no idea where 'aye' came from just flatly mispronounced it.

There are more 'scholarly' theories, and the truth may be a combination of several origins, but no one will ever convince me that 'fuckin A' was the origin of any of them.

If I think, I can come up with other names and phrases that are misheard or mistaken versions of something. (like the confusion over the 1st verse of 'Wildwood Flower' or any of many Mondegreens'0

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:17 PM

We have slightly different versions:

'It's as noisy as two skeletons riding in a biscuit tin'
or:'It's as noisy as two skeletons shagging in a dustbin'

'She's as mad as a bag of spiders'.
or:'She's as mad as a box of frogs'.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM

Out hyar in The West, I've heard it said that someone was "madder'n a just cut bull."

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 06:59 PM

First verse of Wildwood Flower, Bill?

I sing it:

I will twine 'mid my ringlets of raven black hair
Roses so red and the lily so fair
The myrtle so bright with its emerald hue
And the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue

Or are you thinking of the ludicrous A.P. Carter lyrics? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: gnu
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:53 PM

Bill D... ``...but no one will ever convince me that 'fuckin A' was the origin of any of them.`

Odd thing to say. Dunno why you would say that. A is the first letter in the alphabet... it`s tops. It`s a local saying, as I THOUGHT I explained, which is what this thread is about.

It`s not a contest. If it really is, you win... on accounta I really don`t give two fucks from Tuesday... another local saying.

I`d give your post a fuckin F. And a WTF for good measure. Who shoved a bug up yer arse anyway eh.... who pissed in your coenflakes... does THAT travel...

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:21 PM

"Odd thing to say" well, I am just as odd as any of us!

purely in the interest of scholarship, gnu...There is no contest and no prize. I agree that your local version is quite common now. I KNOW how folk songs and folk sayings are processed. Hey...it's a forum where we share ideas & knowledge.

------------------------------------

Ebbie... the Carter lyrics as well as others. We had 3-4 LONG threads debating possible variations, with botanists speculating of type of flower.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM

It was a pansy, or maybe a clematis. Or bougainvillia. One of them botanical things.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:30 AM

I know about redding up in Western PA, and jaggers, instead of thorns, and slippy for slippery. Redd up and slippy come from Scots dialect. I'm not surprised that gum bands is German. We have plenty of them in this part of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:04 AM

In Bristol as I am sure is similar in other UK counties we can buy guide phrase books to familiarise visitors and tourists with the local sayings and spellings. In the local shops around here we have t-shirts now which are selling really well with popular Bristoleaze phrases like 'Theym ginorrmous' (They are extremely large) 'Theyze me dapz mind' (I am only wearing casual sneakers, I would love to come if you don't mind my casual dress.

For a laugh I will send the odd Bristolian saying or greeting to my younger son like 'Ow's Bist me ole babby?' or 'Right me Cocker?' who has so much fun explaining it to his Madagascan girlfriend.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:26 PM

Then there are the local, sometimes very local, US words and phrases:

"He's in eruption"
"Bodacious" is pretty well known, as is "consarned!!"
"fetch up" meaning to arrive at someplace
"fat up": to gain weight
"hifalutin'": beyond your status, such as hifalutin' ideas
"bullyrag": to try to intimidate someone
"forty-rod": cheap whiskey, so called because after a drink you could only walk forty rods (about 50 feet)
"palaver": talk
"rondy": rendezvous, gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:53 PM

We lived in New Orleans for 3 years, and my Mother was confused when our neighbor asked if she could "carry you somewhere". All it meant was that she was offering a ride in her car.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM

Glad to learn from Guest,PATSY, above, that "thee bist" for "you are", which my late first wife used to quote as previous generation talk for "you are" in the Forest of Dean area of Gloucestershire on the borders of Wales, where she was born in 1935, is still apparently current in not-too-far-distant Bristol. That same old neighbour who used it in her childhood would also say "Old Butt" or "Old Buttie" as a vocative where others would probably say "Mate".

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:43 PM

Here are some local expressions from Minnesota. Some of them are dying out, and only used by old-timers.

Rubber binder = rubber band

Semaphore = traffic light

Dinner = noontime meal
Supper = evening meal
Lunch = between-meal snack (or bedtime snack)

Boulevard = the grass strip between the sidewalk and the street

You're so good to cook. = You're such a good cook.

Do you want to come with? = Do you want to come with me? (or us)

Oh, for cute! = Oh, how cute!
Oh, for dumb! = Oh, how dumb!
etc.

Uff-da! = Oy veh! = How awful!

Ish! = Yuck!

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:49 AM

>Glad to learn from Guest,PATSY, above, that "thee bist" for "you are", which my late first wife used to quote as previous generation talk for "you are" in the Forest of Dean area of Gloucestershire on the borders of Wales, where she was born in 1935, is still apparently current in not-too-far-distant Bristol. That same old neighbour who used it in her childhood would also say "Old Butt" or "Old Buttie" as a vocative where others would probably say "Mate".

~Michael~ <

I know the Forest of Dean it is a lovely place and have had many a family picnic. It is not far to travel out of Bristol for the change of scenery and it is especially good in the Autumn.

She was right, 'Thee bist' etc. was from a previous generation of Bristolians. Especially in town areas like Old Market, St. Phillips Marsh, , Newfoundland Road, Bedminster etc. Where the old Bristol families remain it can still be heard but less though now, with new generations setting up home elsewhere and people from other areas moving here you don't hear the broad dialect as it was. Sometimes back then my mother accused me of becoming a little Bedminsterite if I came out with an expression that was just a bit too Bristoleaze. I don't know why but in the 60's it became something to be ashamed of and my mother even sent me to elocution lessons which was great but if I lost my temper or got a little bit tipsy out it would come! A bit like a WestCountry Eliza Doolittle I suppose!
Farming people in the rural parts such as Winterbourne have more of a wurzely dialect for example when talking about 'Our mother' they would say 'R Ma' rather than 'Muh.' As a Bristolian you can usually tell what part of Bristol someone hails from just by the slight differences of dialect. Now though it is mostly used in light heartedness and in an affectionate nod to Bristol culture, both with young and old as well as being a greeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 08:47 AM

I spent a fair part of my childhood in Watchet in Somerset where the dialect had a detectable difference from Bristolese. Some vowel sounds were definately pronounced as a slur between two sounds. Bist would sound more like bay-ist, while still just being classed as a single vowel.

Some other words were different.

Fred Wedlock's problem with the caravan would become something like,
"Thee's got theick wur thee cassan backun assun?"

All the old character who spoke this lingo have gone now as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: terrier
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 03:55 PM

In Wigan (UK) I was visiting the local 'chippie' (fish and chip shop) to get some lunch and a customer ordered "pie and chips and a dollop of pea wet"
In Bolton (UK)I found a new word for a certain type of bread rolls, they were referred to as 'tits'.
The first time I asked a passer by directions to a place in Rochdale, he kept mentioning what sounded like 'rorborts'. At first I thought he meant traffic islands, roundabouts, but then realised he was meaning 'traffic lights'.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 07:06 PM

I'm too lazy to go back and find the original posts but here's some comments anyway.

"Me arse is making shirt buttons" refers to the style of fart that goes "Pip pip pip pip"

We call an ATM, Auntie Em.

Here the strip between the street and the sidewalk is known as the "Hell Strip" 'cos it is so difficult to maintain.

Fucking A is short for Fucking arseholes.

As for English REAL money...

She'll shag for a Tanner,
she'll shag for a Bob
it only depends on
the size of your knob.

Bob's your Uncle has often degenerated to Bob's your flippin'

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: s&r
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:30 AM

I heard on Radio 4 "'fess up"

and Brag on is new to me

Stu NW UK

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

Terrier's post about the chippie reminded me of the expression "you've had your chips" . Is it used in the US as over here to mean roughly "you're all washed-up , hard luck" ? I'm not sure whether the phrase comes from gambling or from the eating of chips (french fries).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:58 AM

Never heard that expression before, Mayo.
Here in the US chips are crisps, not french fries.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

I thought chips were known as french fries in the States, and crisps were known as chips.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:16 PM

True-Love and I are bi-lingual ;-) American to Australian and back. With a bit of British thrown in. After over 30 years together we both use a mixture of expressions. "Train station" in place of just station. "Pitcher" as often as "jug". "Blimey Mate" "if I had my druthers". I remember when I first used, "neither he is" and True-Love fell about laughing. He thought it so quaint. I hear "rs" where there aren't any and don't sound them when they are there.
It's surprising how different the same basic language can be both in expression and in the way it sounds.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:03 PM

Chips penetrating U.S., been in Canada for a while- French fries is usually just fries, but chips heard more and more.

Of course chips are also those round plastic counters (once pottery or china) used a wagers in poker, etc.
He cashed in his chips means he kicked the bucket, is touching wood (uncommon)- (died).

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:21 PM

OK, how would one use the expression "neither he is"? I assume it's Australian because I've never heard it here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:53 AM

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-jum2.htm

"The phrase Jumping Jehoshaphat is first recorded from Mayne Reid's Headless Horseman of 1866, but is probably older." from above link.

I thought I remembered it as a favourite expletive of Yosemite Sam, but can find no proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 08:24 PM

Cut the last rhubarb of the season today. Reminded me of the word 'rhubarb' being used to describe a heated argument in sports, esp. baseball. Don't suppose it was ever used in that sense in UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 02:26 AM

Jim -- I used it when we passed the spot where an old man usually waved to us from his porch. He wasn't there and my American True-Love said,
"The man who waves isn't there today"
To which I said,
"Neither he is".

Australians of my age also use
"Neither it is/was" to affirm a negative statement.
"Neither I do/she does."
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 03:06 AM

"Neither he is" &c used here in UK likewise, just as Joybell describes.

"Rhubarb" here is thought of as the word actors say over and over to give impression of background chat going on behind the main action/dialogue. Could the usage Q describes two or three posts back derive from this, in the sense of a loud hubbub in which the individual words are not all identifiable? [Note also similarity of words 'hubbub' & 'rhubarb', at that.]

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

"Neither he is" might be something those mexicans say!

sandra (who lives north of the border)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

Thanks, Michael and Sandra. Lots of English expressions were still current in Melbourne when I was growing up. There were more Cornish people in Victoria, Aus. in the 1850s than there were in Cornwall.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM

Until a few years ago, I had never known "regular" coffee to mean anything except coffee that wasn't decaffeinated. Then I ordered coffee on Cape Cod, decaf for myself and "regular" for my wife; she takes coffee black or with milk, never with sugar. As some of you will know, her coffee came with cream and sugar. What constitutes "regular" coffee where YOU live?

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 10:08 PM

I never trust phrases like 'regular'. I always spell out exactly how I want coffee or whether I want a BBQ sandwich covered with ugh cole slaw. Regional idiosyncrasies are just too scary...and I do NOT want onions on my hamburger.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 01:06 AM

'Regular' is one of those weasel Transatlantic-difference words on which we had a thread not long since. To US-ers, it means what we UK-ers would mean by 'normal' or 'ordinary':   'a regular guy', to Americans, means someone who fits in to society in non-eccentric fashion, but to us would mean [or ought to mean if we are consistent] one who is punctual, and unvarying in his habits [or, in a specialist medical sense used in laxative advertising, does not suffer from constipation!].

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Joybell
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 07:51 PM

We don't use "regular" for coffee here in Aus. Neither :-) do we use "sunny-side up" nor "over easy" -- for eggs.
I use quite a few colourful American phrases just because I like them and True-Love uses many Auzzie ones.
One big difference I noted in the U.S. was the fact that using "please" at the end of my order confused people. Thank you when you got your food was usual.
I'm not suggesting that Americans are any less polite. In fact, if anything, I found them more courteous.   
As children we were trained to say "please" before we got anything. As in --
"Can I have an apple?"
"What do you say?"
"Please"
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:30 AM

Joybell, you were lucky.
If we said "Can I have an apple please?" the standard reply was
"'Can I?' is a question for a Doctor"
Our dad insisted that "Can I?" meant "Am I capable of?"
To request something, we had to say "May I"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:47 AM

I don't see why saying "please" would confuse anyone. Unless they thought you said "cheese."

Brits often say "cheers" meaning "thank you." That might not be understood in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Becca72
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

CrazyEddie,

Same in my neck of the woods. The question "Can I have an apple?" would have been met with "I don't know, CAN you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:07 AM

They have different standards of courtesy in the USA so I could understand that assistants might feel confused to hear the "please" at the end of a request in a shop there.

It can be a bit of a mine field . I remember two or three years ago asking a group of subway workers the direction to the platform I needed in the New York subway. I called over to them in the way I would have done in the UK or in Ireland "Which way to the A train?"
One of them called me over and said . It is polite when you're asking for directions to say , "Excuse me, would you tell me the direction to the A train."

In England or Ireland ,insisting on the "excuse me" would be ok ,but considered a bit over-formal. The tone of voice is more important than what you're say . The Australians have the tone thing down to a fine art .

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:36 PM

Joybell wrote:

As children we were trained to say "please" before we got anything. As in -- "Can I have an apple?" "What do you say?" "Please"

One of ours "Can I have a drink?" "Can I have a drink?" 2

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Michael
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

Don't know what happened to the above, formatting and words gone walkabout.

The last line should read:
"Can I have a drink?"
"I think you have forgotten something."
"Can I have a drink and a chocolate biscuit?"

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 01:48 PM

In the Midwest, I think it's usual to say "excuse me" if you need to address a stranger for any reason, especially if the stranger is paying attention to something else when you approach them.

For practical reasons, you've got to say or do something to get their attention before you begin stating your request. Otherwise, you might be in the middle of your sentence by the time they realize you're talking to them, and they won't have been listening, so you'll have to repeat.

You don't need to say "excuse me" if the person is obviously waiting for you to begin a transaction—say, the ticket seller at a theater.

The whole topic of politeness/etiquette deserves its own thread. I think I'll start one. Give me a few minutes to compose my first message, then look for it. (Please!)

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:04 PM

When I worked putting shoes on small people, we offered the newly shod a balloon filled from a pump by the desk. Interesting exchange one day:
    Small boy: "I want a balloon"
    Mother: What do we say when we ask for something"
    Small boy: "Gimmee!"

He was too young to actually whup for it, but his mom was embarrased, and I think he got some tutoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:28 PM

In the West, the excuse me and please were standard when talking to strangers or asking them for something.
Perhaps a hangover from the days when impoliteness was met with a .45 slug.

We were taught to use may when making a request, can (see Becca, above) was considered incorrect. That seems to have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Phrases that don't travel
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:39 PM

I'd forgotten the "May I". At school we had to use "May I" but at home things were more relaxed.
I quickly noticed the use of "excuse me" and also the use of "Sir" in America. Here we use "excuse me" for many reasons so that the tone -- as mayomick says -- is everything. It may be a sarcastic comment about being ignored.

Then there's the round-about (?Irish) way of asking for help,
"I'd like to go to Dandenong".
To which the answer should be,
"The Dandenong train leaves from platform 5"
and not,
"Well why don't you, then".
Cheers and thank you for having me here, Joy