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BS: Mixed feelings about PC.
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Subject: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Bert Date: 28 Apr 11 - 11:44 PM Yes, very often it goes too far but then there is the desire not to offend. Somewhere in the middle there must be a happy medium. But not in this case. I was looking in a mushroom book about a mushroom called "Jew's Ear" and thinking that there must be a more polite name for it. So I looked up the "Official" name and found it to be "Auricua Judae" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Apr 11 - 11:50 PM Latin has always been considered more polite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: BrooklynJay Date: 29 Apr 11 - 12:57 AM Sorta like the way the "Jew's Harp" has now become the "jaw's harp," or some other euphemism. Sometimes it's understandable, sometimes it appears to be just plain silly. Right now, coincidentally, I am going through a crisis of conscience on a personal level: For around fifty years, I've had a song spinning around in my brain that I always liked - ever since I was quite young and, admittedly, did not comprehend all the lyrics. I said to myself that one day, I would learn it on my guitar and have a little fun with this comedic ballad. In fact, it was someone on Mudcat who actually took the time to transcribe the song musically and post the chords. I eagerly worked on the song day in and day out, thinking I would do it at one or two singarounds coming up in May. Then one day I thought to myself, "Wait just a minute - what are these lyrics really saying? What is this song really about?" The answer was pretty much inescapable: Rape. Anyway I looked at it, this was it: Rape. Or "date rape." Call it whatever you will. So, a song which I used to think of as comedic has now taken on quite a different meaning to me. Don't know if I will ever sing it in public, but I haven't quite made up my mind about this... And the song in question? Madeira, M'dear by Flanders and Swann. Jay |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM That madeira song, I've always taken to be a glancing reference to the Landru case. Not date rape, but homicide. Like I've said, I GOT SOME STICK AT THE tOLPUDDLE Festival from a woman who thought my George Joseph Smith song was trivialising violence to women, treating it as a joke. its an odd sort of business. That song where the violence to a violent husband seems very popular these days. I don't know what to make of it. It makes me feel very old and out of sync with the times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Geoff the Duck Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM As for the mushroom, it grows in a shape and has a texture which resembles an ear. It grows on elder trees, which is the tree which, in some version of the Easter story, Judas hanged himself from. The naming was probably Judas' ear. Whether it should be renamed is a different question. In Chinese cooking, they use a dried black mushroom from the same family. In English, the packet labels say Wood Ears - basically the same description, but not personalised to a Bible story. Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 29 Apr 11 - 10:06 AM Political correctness is one of those examples of the cure being worse than the disease. I cannot imagine that any democratic constitution would contain a clause which ensures that citizens not be "offended". It is an absurdity that defies logic, the sooner we do away with this concept, the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Date: 29 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM Surely if you're Jewish, you can call it a Jew's Ear, same for a Jew's Harp. After all, if the N word is reserved for black people, and the Q word for homosexuals, it only seems fair to me. Now I don't want to hear any of you buggers using the words Scotch Egg, unless you're Scottish: same goes for Whisky I was alayas puzzled by the Gadarene rush to call actresses actors. Firstly, why did they not decide to call all of them actresses? I mean it's just as valid isn't it? Do actors call each other actresses in private? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Bert Date: 29 Apr 11 - 12:29 PM ...Do actors call each other actresses in private?... I'm sure some of them do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Arthur_itus Date: 29 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM The sooner the PC brigade get stopped the better. They are taking life out everything and causing more damage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM Well, I'm in favor of calling a spade a spade......er, am I allowed to say that nowadays? When I think of "spades," I think of shovels and playing cards. I had never thought of it referring to people, until somebody complained about the use of "call a spade a spade" in a local city council meeting. Then there are all the changes in verbiage with regards to handicaps. I can't keep it all straight, and I'm convinced nobody knows what anybody is talking about any more. Some of the terms, like "mentally challenged," sound like cruel jokes themselves. And apparently, it's no longer Politically Correct to use the name of the Deity with reverence, although it's perfectly OK to use it in vain.... OMG. Did I say that? I firmly believe in treating every human being with respect - but to artificially change language in an attempt to euphemize away reality, just goes too far. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Arthur_itus Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:35 PM Just plain stupid Joe. I call a spade a spade and if somebody gets offended, then they have a warped mind. I think the PC brigade should be llocked up for our own good. Oh for the days when you could say you were gay (happy) and nobody thought you were homosexual. The world has gone stark raving mad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Rapparee Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM 'If that you will France win, Then with Scotland first begin:' For once the eagle England being in prey, To her unguarded nest the weasel Scot Comes sneaking and so sucks her princely eggs, Playing the mouse in absence of the cat, To tear and havoc more than she can eat. I don't think it was nice of Shakespeare (Henry V) to say that the weaselly Scots suck eggs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: HuwG Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:52 PM When the Italian film producer Carlo Ponti (husband of Sophia Loren) died, the UK paper the Guardian reported, using their approved gender-neutral language, that in his younger days, Ponti was close friends with many "actors". There were howls of protest from all of Ponti's friends and family that this portrayed him as gay. The Guardian grudgingly accepted that on this occasion, they might perhaps have used the normally taboo word "actresses". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Rapparee Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:38 PM Well... I grew up in the pre-PC 1950s. I grew up calling Brazil nuts "n----r toes" and geodes "n----r heads". Never called any of our neighbors -- or anyone else -- that. They were "Mrs. [pronounced "Miz") Smith" or "Mister Drummond." In fact, I don't think I heard that word used pejoratively until I was well into high school, even by our neighbors who were people of color (like white, brown, yellow, and red). We'd trade various things, trying hard to "jew" the other guy down -- not that any of us knew anyone of the Jewish faith, just that that was the word in common usage. We also played the "French harp" (harmonica) and later, because some didn't use "French letters" they caught the "English disease". We might "n----r rig" or "jury rig" something, and we'd go to the store for German sausage, Irish potatoes, and English muffins. One of my friends had a "Japanned" cabinet in his house. Now I live out here in The West, where a nearby mountain, named by the Chinese fella who's buried on it "Chink Peak", is undergoing a name transformation to "Chinese Peak." "Squaw Valley" is up for grabs, as is a small stream named (on the map) "S--- Creek." Seems like lots of people get their Irish up over things these days, don't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: bobad Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM The NY Times still uses "actress" - that's good enough for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Arthur_itus Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM I wish the PC brigade would stop all the younger people effing and blinding on the street and stop the drunken voilent pub goers. They wouldn't do that of course, they are only interested in making sure people don't say things that offend them personally. Idiots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Don Firth Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:28 PM Penn Gillette, of the comedy team "Penn and Teller," used to write a humor article on the final page of each issue of one of the computer magazines. One article had to do with someone going through the list of various symbols available for insertion in a document in a word processing program. This person discovered that there was a skull-and-crossbones adjacent to a Star of David. He went ballistic! He interpreted that juxtaposition of symbols as a hidden message saying, "Kill all Jews!" Penn Gillette ruminated a bit on the excesses of political correctness, along with the kind of imagination that is predisposed to be offended. He ended his article by saying: "There are troublesome people in this world whose mind-set is such that they could find something to be offended at merely by walking through the debris following an explosion in a Scrabble-tile factory!" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:28 PM There is a whole industry which consists of people going round, looking for things to be offended by. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:37 PM I am completely surprised by you Giok! Those people are making really serious money finding things to be offensive and as a cheap ass Scot I would have expected you to go for it!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: John P Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:10 PM PC taken to extremes is, of course, idiotic. But encouraging respectful speech is a good thing. Calling a black person a "n***r" or a gay person "queer" is stupid and rude, but not calling them that could also be described as PC. On the other hand, I know a couple of wheelchair-bound folks who hate being called things like "differently-abled". They are crippled, and call themselves so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Don Firth Date: 29 Apr 11 - 09:12 PM Right on, John! "Differently abled" is downright dorky! One of the words the PC police howl about is "handicapped." Well, I've walked with crutches all my life (polio when I was two years old) and for the last twenty years or so, I've been rolling around in a wheelchair. The term handicap derives from "hand-in-cap," a way of betting on horses a few centuries ago. The expression eventually grafted itself to the amount of extra weight that a particularly fast horse was burdened with in order to make the race more even. So I figure if I'm "handicapped," it's to slow me down a bit in order to give everyone else a decent chance. Works for me. . . . {:-) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:59 AM Well Don, the last thing these people do is ask those involved directly, what they feel about it. Maybe they're scared they won't get the answer they want, and after all when you know better than they do what's good for them. Why bother to ask? Thanks Spaw, I loves ya baby! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Arthur_itus Date: 30 Apr 11 - 04:15 AM They are just busy bodies with naff all else to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 Apr 11 - 07:56 AM Frankly if anybody feels offended by anything I say - tough titty!!! By the way, who was that rag-head standing outside the Abbey yesterday after the wedding? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM Bonzo, you're quite right of course, but one can be arrested, charged and fined for saying non-PC things, and even lose ones job. People feel they're walking on eggshells every time they open their mouths. (to mix a metaphor somewhat!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Arthur_itus Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM "People feel they're walking on eggshells every time they open their mouths. " And that is the sad tale of woe, that the stupid PC brigade have done to this country. Very very sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 30 Apr 11 - 09:34 AM It IS sad, Arthur. I remember just after the War going up to London with my father and passing Speakers' Corner, and listening to the people on their soap-boxes, declaring anything and everything, without fear of reprisals. My father explained to me that this was what he and his fellow combatants during the War had been fighting for, something called 'Freedom of Speech'. He continued that no matter WHAT a person said, no-one was allowed to stop them, but you could if desired shout back and give your different point of view, although no physical violence was permitted. I was much impressed with this, and my father's earnest manner, it meant a lot to him, and it still does to me. Whatever happened to 'Freedom of Speech'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:00 AM "wheelchair-bound folks who hate being called things like "differently-abled". They are crippled, and call themselves so."===== I am reminded of the 'Native American' asked by the journo what they called themselves. "Why, 'Indians' of course," he replied. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:04 AM BTW, anyone fancy a jolly game of Cowpersons and Native Americans? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:36 AM "Whatever happened to 'Freedom of Speech'?" It got suppressed. Trust me, I know ALL about it! ;0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Neil D Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:16 AM Sometimes political corectness can go too far, admittedly, but sometimes the reaction against it can go to far as well. Like when someone in this thread calls another human being a rag-head and no one seems to find it offensive. Well I do find it offensive and if you all want to deride me as belonging to the PC Brigade, have at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:36 AM I gave a lot of thought to this question some years back and I came to the following conclusion:- If PC is to work, it must work for everybody. So as far as colours are concerned (in the UK), you should avoid not only black, but all of these as well: Red – Upsets the workers Orange – upsets liberals Green – tree huggers Blue – Tories Pink – Gays Yellow – Cowards (though they are usually too frightened to complain) Only purple seems immune, being linked to nothing more contentious than fastest lap indication at GPs. What did I get from all this? The PC Song Scarlet, Amber, Cerise and Jade, Tangerine, Purple, Azure, I Think that it's a rainbow, hope it's a rainbow, but I'm not quite sure. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Date: 30 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM Neil, I'm afraid it's our old friend irony again. Many folks have problems with the form, perhaps we need an irony emoticon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM I took it that no one responded to 'raghead' because they recognized its use in irony. That was my reaction, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: olddude Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM I never know what the heck to say anymore to anyone. Not too long ago I told a guy at work "thanks so much bro for the help" he got mad at the bro part .. as I scratched my head ... I guess being an old country boy I am not up on the correct terms anymore in these modern times. I spend a lot of time apologizing and not knowing why .. go figure |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:40 PM In my day, women of about my age used 'dear' all the time, and meant it affectionately and with gratitude. I often say "Thank you dear" at the supermarket checkout for instance, but my more savvy friend told me the other day to stop doing it, as it's 'patronising' and could cause offence!! Well, I still 'patronise' merrily, and if people are so thick they don't see it as a goodwill expression, that's their fault not mine! Ridiculous!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM What would you Yanks say if I was to outside to roll a fag? :-) MP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Don Firth Date: 30 Apr 11 - 09:00 PM I used to do a song that I learned from a Lead Belly record. Black Girl. Also known as In the Pines. Never had a problem with it until a good ten years after I first started singing it. With increasing frequency, some people (white) came up to me after I'd sung it and told me that I, a white man, should not be singing that song—especially with "those words," i.e., "black girl." Black people would find it racist and offensive. They found it racist and offensive! I asked two people I knew what they thought; whether or not they found my singing the song offensive. Lynn Brooks and Rosetta Powell. Both black. Lynn was a singer. Rosetta was a co-worker at Ma Bell. "Ridiculous!!" and "That's just plain silly!!" were their responses. When the question was put to a large, black man I know who plays outrageous harmonica and is very into African drumming, he said, "The idea of someone wanting to put 'Whites Only' and 'Blacks Only' labels on songs? Now, THAT is offensive!" And the idea of "bowdlerizing" the song by changing it to "Little girl, little girl, don't lie to me. . . ." That, I find offensive! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Bert Date: 01 May 11 - 04:45 PM but to artificially change language in an attempt to euphemize away reality, just goes too far. Not really Joe. It is in the nature of euphemisms that they quickly become offensive and polite people don't always want to be offensive. Shit house became WC. then lavatory then washroom and is now probably bathroom and it is only a matter of time before even that will not be acceptable. The problem is where to draw the line and also who is the audience. I have no problem singing Seven Dear Old Ladies even though lavatory and Old are not considered PC by some. But I wouldn't sing any of the songs on "The Exit Visa" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: MGM·Lion Date: 01 May 11 - 05:01 PM There is also, of course, the problem that, if we can no longer say "bathroom" because it now means what used to be called the "jakes", then what are we to call the bathroom –– you know, where one goes to wash? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: frogprince Date: 01 May 11 - 08:30 PM The ass (or arse) scrubbing room. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: saulgoldie Date: 01 May 11 - 09:32 PM The term "PC," when it is not about a computer, is loaded, itself. It suggests "unnecessary" changing of words so as not to offend. So, do we keep using terms that cause offense or pain? Well, the words, as locked in literature and song of bygone eras may give us insights into how people were seen before we became "enlightened." OR they may suggest ongoing pernicious views of certain people. A very visible recent example is the removal of "N*****" from Mark Twain's works. Was Twain a racist? I don't think he was. Does it alter the artistic integrity of the work? I think so. Or, "Gypsy." The people who used to be known as "Gypsies" prefer to be called "Roma," these days. What about "Gypsy Davy" or "The Whistling Gypsy?" And others. BUT... To persist in using words of hurt is insensitive. And it can be deadly. Words indicate one's thoughts. And words lead to deeds. And even if most Mudcatters probably would not, there are enough unstable people who are more than willing to "take it to the next level." At what point on the continuum--and it IS a slippery-slope continuum--does "baby killer" become "someone who needs to be killed?" At what point does "blood-sucking Jew" become someone who should be removed from the Earth, in total. Curiously enough, today is Yom Hashoah. It commemorates the murder of the 6 million. As far as speech goes, Germany has, when I last checked, fairly "restrictive" laws pertaining to hate speech. Maybe that is not the best approach. But is humanity "richer" if we use all manner of offensive, hurtful words? Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: robomatic Date: 02 May 11 - 01:26 AM My experience is that in a very real sense, there is less real freedom of speech in the USA than there was in the 70s. It's not so much PC as the over-reaction to PC issues. People are assumed to have negative emotions when using words such as 'niggardly' and 'tomahawk'. I think ill-will and ignorance are trying to drive the freedom bus sometimes and the rest of us criticize the ride at our peril. I miss you more than I can (safely) say George Carlin! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Backwoodsman Date: 02 May 11 - 01:49 AM "I spend a lot of time apologizing and not knowing why" Then don't apologise, Dude. Make those demanding your apology explain why, then explain to them that whatever you said didn't mean what they think it meant - ie that the fault is theirs and lies with their own incomprehension of the English language. If that doesn't work, tell 'em to Foxtrot Oscar. I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: Don Firth Date: 05 May 11 - 02:15 PM I received this dire warning this morning in an e-mail from a friend. The world is, indeed, fraught with all kinds of pitfalls!! Animal lovers should stop calling their furry or feathered friends "pets" because the term is insulting, leading academics claim. Domestic dogs, cats, hamsters or budgerigars should be re-branded as "companion animals" while owners should be known as "human carers," they insist. Even terms such as "wildlife" are dismissed as insulting to the animals concerned, who should instead be known as "free-living," the academics, including an Oxford professor, suggest.Be careful! You don't want your Yorkie to start biting your ankle! Or worse still, get a nasty phone call from your hamster's attorney! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: John P Date: 05 May 11 - 06:17 PM Well, I've hear the "companion animal" thing a lot, but I can assure everyone that it isn't about the animals. They don't give a damn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 06 May 11 - 03:24 AM The good thing about PC is that I am less likely to come up against anything that will offend, I can be relaxed in the knowledge that most of the time I can walk down the street, get on a bus, on a train generally do day to day things without having the day upset by anything nasty. What I first thought was the over strict smokings laws when it first came here annoyed me somewhat but now I admit that the benefits outway me feeling disgruntled about it. It is more disciplined and has been effective keeping the streets cleaner people here in Bristol seem to be disposing of the cigarette ends more responsibly than before. It's not perfect but better than it was. But I do get annoyed when people walking by a designated area insist on doing the fake cough to show their distate. If the sign says designated why can't the non-smokers keep away from it and mind their own business? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 06 May 11 - 04:39 AM I don't see why people should object to female actors being called actors. Acting is a job (as well as a hobby). The nature of the job doesn't change with the gender of the person doing it. Female police officers aren't normally called 'Policewomen' any more for the same reason. Standardisation of language has played a part in establishing a measure of parity of esteem for the job that women in the police service do - which didn't exist in the days when they were known as WPCs (or 'Popsies' as my father-in-law used to call them when he was in the job). You don't hear people talking about 'Doctresses' any more than you hear the term 'Male Nurse' anymore. When the term 'Actress' was common it often had connotations of a certain sort of woman - vain, slightly dim and of easy sexual virtue. None of which is true, of course..... I'm not quite sure where this spade business comes in. As far as I am concerned you can use any language you like to describe gardening implements. People are a different matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mixed feelings about PC. From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 May 11 - 04:57 AM Trouble with 'actor' for both sexes is that it can lead to poor semantic communication, which is always a bad thing. A doctor, e.g., is qualified to treat any patient whatever his/her sex. But in general actresses have to play different roles from actors, and confusing the job-titles can lead to unsureness as to the sex of the part being played {esp in these days when a Charlie or a Sam can be of indeterminate sex} or auditioned for; or to the kind of ambiguity which even The Guardian admitted, when a profile described a veteran director as having had many actors as close friends, giving impression of quite different sorts of personal and emotional relationships from those intended! ~M~ |
