 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Global warming, yes/no?
|
|
|
Subject: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:08 PM There is a very interesting article on global warming available at http://www.jewishworldreview.com Scroll down and read the article by Thomas Sowell ...that is if you have an open mind on the subject. It's also available on the Drudge Report. Wish I was smart enough to provide a blue clicky, but I'm not. I barely have enough bright to reset my cookie from time to time. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: thosp Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:27 PM blueclicketything |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM Did not go there. Will not. Global warming, while a posssibilty, is not, scientifically. It's really quite simple. If you do not have the data to back your arguement, you have no arguement. While I agree that we should do all we can to avoid disturbing the balance of nature, I detest those who decry the falling of the sky. While I can cite many examples, I will leave you with only one. I watched Bill Maher's TV program "Politically Incorrect" a few nights ago. A young lady stated something to the effect that "they" have satellite photos from outerspace that show the huge hole in the ozone layer. Does this s**t-for-brains not realize that we don't have satellite photos from before satellites ? Jeepers Creepers !!!! Before TV and mass hysteria, she would have been a witch and burned. In her case, it might not have been a bad idea. Global warming my ass. It was all started by the corporations holding the patents on refrigeration. The fifty year patents were about to run out so they manufactured this crap to outlaw the use of the refigerants and refrigeratnt systems' insulations commonly used. The rich get richer and the poor get as stunned as me arse. Of course, if you can show me the DATA to support a claim otherwise, I will march with you in the next protest. Otherwise.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: BanjoRay Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:07 PM I spent many summers in the last 25 years mountaineering in the alps. In that time the major glaciers have visibly retreated by signifigant amounts. The ice cover of the north pole has thinned from 3 metres to 2 metres on average. Its all out there for you to look at. Cheers |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:26 PM ...and then there's the matter of the coral reefs dying off. The marine biologists have been studying this and they credit this phenomenon to an increase in the temperature in the waters where coral reefs occur. Apparently it's a small increase, but enough to kill off coral. They're not all dead yet, but they're dying fast. I watched (and taped part of) a show by Bill Moyers the other night about the subject of the damage that is being done to the earth by human activity, and some solutions to some of the problems associated with it. The scientist who was talking about the coral reefs dying off said that it's the first instance in recorded history of an entire type of eco-system dying off. By the way, that was an excellent show, in my opinion, and I think it's worth buying a tape of it from PBS or whoever produced it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:34 PM Gnu, something you said confuses me (not a new phenomenon, admittedly): this woman you decry on that TV programme didn't, on your account, say ANYTHING about WHEN the photos were from. Did you leave that part out? Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:14 PM Of course, and pollution doesn't happen either. If you go to Isle of Sheppey you won't find sewage sludge on the beaches where once there used to be golden sand. None of this is really happening. The lakes at Waggonner's Wells are not now devoid of life where they used to be teeming in the Mid Fifties. It's not real! Just close your eyes and you can have a real open mind. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:15 PM Interesting POV, Gnu. Thanks for the comments. I'm just not sure, myself, that global warming is as real as it's being touted in many quarters (primarily the mainstream media and the tree huggers). No doubt about pollution, all I have to do is look at the brown cloud that generally hangs over the city of Phoenix, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with global warming. It just fouls up the air. dougr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:17 PM Gnu ... I bet your an American? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:23 PM Whether you are sure if it's real or not, you will be effected by it if it is. So it's as much in your interest as it is the tree huggers to try to make sure that it doesn't happen. Unfortunately, according to what is now considered conventional scientific wisdom, even if we change our practices right now, warming will continue as a result of our activities for many years to come. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:25 PM There is plenty of scientific data for those who can be bothered to look. By the way I do this kind of thing as part of earning a living as a biologist. Simple observation as CarolC and BanjoRay should convince anybody that there is a real problem. Be very afraid, if not for yourself then for your children and their children. And no, as I once said to Troll who challenged me to provide evidence on this forum, I'm not going to quote chapter and verse, there is simply too much and the evidence is published everywhere including the net for those who want to view it. And the answers are equally clear to those who can be bothered to think. Mostly they lie in our collective hands and the way we collectively want the world to be Gnu, I do however completely agree with you that it's largely about the rich getting richer, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:31 PM So I assume, then, Mooman, that you did not read the article I suggested folks read, and for which a blue clicky was provided by Thosp. :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:37 PM DougR ... I bet your an American as well? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:46 PM Dear DougR, I did indeed take the trouble to real the said article which I believe itself is a major contributor to global warming. I hear that sort of economics-biased bullshit everyday. As I said, the evidence is there. You only need to use your own eyes or scan the wealth of hard scientific data that now exists and is widely published. I am getting weary fighting the ostrich mentality. When the decision-makers DO actually wake up it may well be too late, e.g for those many areas and countries that will be flooded. I have no problems with "tree huggers", if fact trees were my early area of professional research for 6 years. But you do not need to be a "tree hugger" to have an open mind. Respectfully, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:49 PM I'm right though mooman aren't I, he is an American? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: MarkS Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:49 PM Global warming? Possibly. Because of human intervention? Not likely. We seem to forget sunspot cycles and cyclical climatic variations, which have been happening over the last millions of years anyway. Does anybody remember that glaciers covered Europe and North America in the past and will likely do so again? I will be open minded that mean temperatures may be rising, but very skeptical about whether or not man has anything to do with it. Mark |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:51 PM And cows do fart! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:51 PM It's not happening. Everything is just peachy. Carry on as you are, everything is OK.. It's fine - really it is - just ask Brash Limbaugh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: BanjoRay Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:52 PM The article pointed at by Thosp's clicky was some vague maundering based around reference to a book by Dr S Fred Singer called 'Hot Talk, Cold Science'. Here is a reader's review of this book from Amazon: FOSSIL FUEL CONSULTANT BASHES GLOBAL WARMING, July 18, 1999 Cheers
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Jon W. Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:10 PM The earth has had many climatic cycles in the past. A thousand years ago, Greenland was green and the Vikings called the northeast coast of North America Vinland because there were grapevines growing there. The 1400s saw global cooling. 10000 years ago there was an ice age. During the age of the dinosaurs, it was apparently a lot hotter than it is now. The earth's surface cooled significantly in the years after the eruption of Krakatoa in the late 19th century. Maybe the only thing new here is that now we have a convenient scapegoat on which to pin the blame. Bert, citing local environmental damage, which is very real, does not prove global catastrophe. Mousethief, I think what Gnu was trying to say is that we don't have any pre-global-warming-scare satellite photos to compare to, so we simply don't know that the hole in the ozone hasn't been there for thousands of years. Mooman, are you intellectually honest enough to admit that there are many leading scientists who do not agree that there is concrete evidence in the first place, and that there are others who say there may be warming but it probably isn't caused by greenhouse gasses but rather solar activity? Read the article, folks. Try to consider what it says about the global cooling scare of just a quarter century ago. Put it all in perspective with the earth throughout the ages. Research both sides of the argument, not just the one that fits your political leanings. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:11 PM Ohmygod! There's more of you than I thought! I see I'm going to have my work cut out! Thanks Ray for taking the trouble to bring another alternate view on this piece of patent nonsense! Shields Folk. I haven't a clue who's an American and who isn't! One of the joys of the internet! I know a lot of US friends have however put the opposite case on this forum like CarolC. You, however, sound like a Geordie and I hope I'm not offending you by stating I'm a Sunderland supporter! mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM Yes, I am an American. Ray: You don't find it questionable that the report published by the National Academy of Sciences was not written by the "heavywieght" scientists that took part in the discussions, and was not even submitted to them for approval before publication? Mooman is satisfied that there is ample evidence available global warming is real. Perhaps he is right. If he is, why do some scientists still question it? Surely they are not all in the pockets of evil corporations. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM But it doesn't matter NOBODY cares, NOBODY! A few weeks ago, I posted to a thread and mentioned that a friend of mine had invented a solar air conditioner. You would have thought that with all the ecology concious Mudcatters that there are, a few of them might have been interested. I have not received one personal message asking about this or asking how to get one. No one cares. Just plug the window unit in, and carry on as usual. Everything is just fine. Bert P.S. How long will it be before Gaia just shrugs off these two legged bugs and sends them the way of the dinasaurs? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Chicken Charlie Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:16 PM Global warming as a theory goes back to the 19th century. For a recent version, search James Lovelock, the Gaia Hypothesis and "Daisyworld." There were also Russian antecedents. It's a bigger development than a corporate conspiracy could achieve. Pollution exists, but that is a completely separate issue. Equally obviously, glaciers recede, but glaciers have receded before, there having been as many as nine ice ages. The crucial question is whether the short-term changes we observe are merely oscillations such as have occurred many times in Earth's history, or whether they are the signs of a the onset of a unique, catastrophic change. I quite agree with Gnu to the extent that to judge events on the geologic time scale, you need much more time depth than pix from satellites will give you.--You'd need matching satellite photos from 10,000 BC to prove anything that way. The other crucial question is to truly establish the mechanics of the theory. I have no idea whether this has been done; I'd say "Follow the Lovelock trail and test it ...." In the meantime this is a more serious topic than whether we should bash bunny-huggers or not. CC |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM See, I knew he was an American. mooman sorry about being a Sun*****nd supporter are you a makum aswell? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM Yes Jon, I'm certainly intellectually honest enough to admit there are scientists with different views to me and in the end the facts, though probably irrelevant by then, will emerge. If I am wrong I will admit it but I do not believe that to be the case. What I am saying is that the scientific evidence, and there has been plenty of it, that I have seen plus my own observations put me firmly on one side of the fence on this issue. Respectfully, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:19 PM You can't prove it. It's not happening. Just go back to sleep. Everything's fine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:52 PM A Magpie eh Shields? No I'm not Makum although the better half is half Makum! Bert... I can prove it. It is happening. Everything's not fine. But I will go to sleep now ...an excellent idea! Cheers mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:56 PM Shields Folk , gnu is Canadian. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: GUEST,Dicho Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:13 PM The global warming shift is there for all of us to see if we look beyond our little shells. The question that needs answers is how much global pollution has to do with it. The extent of global pollution is sickening, but how much it is contributing to warming is where the argument lies. Throughout geologic time there have been many temperature shifts, some subtle, some severe.Go back only thousands of years, and ice sheets covered much of the northern hemisphere, down to the northern midwest in the United States. Between glacial periods were warm periods, with many fluctuations. All of this was before Man was able to do damage that would affect climate. It looks like we are shifting into a an even warmer part of the present warm period. I worked in geology-paleontology-ecology for a major oil company until my retirement. We will not see it, but our grandchildren may find that New Orleans may be moved upriver a bit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:49 PM Hmmm. My grandson just moved to New Orleans. Should I suggest he start scouting real estate upstream? Shields, I fail to see why my being an American is pertinent. Perhaps you will enlighten me. Bert: I didn't see your posting, but having recently purchased a brand spanking new air conditioning unit I couldn't afford to buy another at the moment. I'd be interested in the future though. Not sure this has anything to do with global warming (because I'm still not as absolutely sure that the threat exists as many of you) but I also noted in today's newspaper that GM has entered into an agreement with Ballard Power Systems in Vancouver, British Columbia to prduce high capacity hydrogen fuel cells to power thousands of cars by 2010. It is anticipated that the cars will run 500 miles per tank of fuel and will be pollution free (pay attention Kendall). DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: thosp Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:00 PM i read the artical by sowell (and a bunch of others by him) my reaction --- he turns a tricky phrase -- a lot of slight of word ---- anyway lets assume for a moment that he and others like him are correct --and that greenhouse gasses etc. are not causing global warming --- what about all the other things they are causing i.e. cancer,asthma in children,acid rain,fouling water etc.etc.etc.----- just for those and other items that i haven't mentioned ---don't you think something should be done to clean up the enviornment? try and stand behind a buss or truck and breath --- where do you think all that carbon dioxide goes -- to an alternate universe -- or lets see the trees turn it into nice clean air -- i don't think so --- the tree huggers have a lot fewer trees to hug everyday (and lets not knock treehuggers unless they knock whatever you are hugging!)and a lot more sources of pollution! (end of rant by tree hugging (even if i do live in a city)nader voting,card carrying aclu :) etc. amnesty int loving) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:15 PM Well, thosp, I have to admit that we tree huggers are indeed knocking what the pollution proponents are hugging. That's the whole point, isn't it? However, I like your point. Since we don't know for certain that pollution isn't causing global warming, and since we know that it is causing all kinds of other havoc, it just kinda seems to make sense to do something to eliminate or at least reduce pollution, doesn't it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:28 PM Wish it would warm up a bit round here! Im in Hull(Uk),Its the coldest summer we have had for over a decade.john |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:38 PM John: I wish you could send me some "cool" and I'd be delighted to send you some "hot." DougR (burning up in Arizona) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:42 PM Thosp, and others, I did not mean my comment regarding "tree huggers" to be inflamatory, or disrespectful. Some of my best friends are tree huggers. But, you are assuming in your post above that global warming actually is taking place (or a better way of saying it might be you are convinced that global warming is taking place). There seem to be some folks that question it. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bill D Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:47 PM human beings in general now have an amazing ability to effect (and affect) change faster than their psyches, egos and emotions can comprehend the results. We are affecting the global climate, even though this may be superimposed upon changes which would be happening naturally anyway. Chloroflorocarbons do make changes to the atmosphere, and mathematics can tell us approximately how much......and even if you doubt the math or 'suspect' that someone is trying to profit from manipulation of the situation, it is almost ALWAYS best to err on the side of caution in these matters. If were to go to a quiet street and drive thru an intersection at 100 MPH, you would 'probably' not get hit, but it is STILL stupid to try it! If a rare species of butterfly (or a spotted owl) or a type of algae become extinct, it 'probably' wont cause any noticable harm...If you allow more & more species of plants and animals to become extinct every year, eventually the eco-system WILL collapse (or become something we do NOT like!) Likewise, if you keep releasing greenhouse gasses and CFCs, NO MATTER WHAT NATURE IS DOING AT THE SAME TIME, it will give you results you do not like! Some of you LOVE to point fingers and quibble over petty points of analysis..(especially if you can cast aspersions on some country, political institution, or corporation of which you are not fond). Have fun.....but do remember that gambling is a fun hobby only if you have plenty to spare! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: katlaughing Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:56 PM gnu, we've had some really great PM's recently, but I have to take exception to your comments about the woman and the possibility that in her case being burned as a witch might have been a good idea. Burning someone because of their spiritual beliefs is never a good idea. I know you probably had your tongue firmly in your cheek, but I, for one, found it offensive. Bert, I missed your posting, but Rog and I would be very interested to know more about your friend's a/c. If one's house was filthy wouldn't one want to clean it up and keep it that way? Ultimately that is what the Earth is, our one and only domicile. Let's get it clean and keep it that way, then see what happens to the changes we are seeing. It could be the only totally global and definitive way to prove once and for all whether we really effect the environment or not. Personally I have no doubt that we do, the same as how we effect our house's cleanliness by living in it. And, as for you who might be desparaging us treehuggers, as The Virginian said to Trampas, "Smile when you call me that." katloverofallnature |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: thosp Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:04 AM DougR --- the point i was trying to make 1- let's assume that greenhouse gasses have NOTHINGto do with global warming 2-greenhouse gasses cause a)cancer b)asthema in children c)acid rain and it's associated problems d)water pollution e- etc. don't you think that for these reasons something should be done about them hopefully better expressed that before -- don't worry about the treehugger thing -- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:17 AM Oh Doug, you're such a trouble maker! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:25 AM Thosp: The answer is yes. Jed: I have no idea what you're talking about :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:45 AM LOL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gus C Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:09 AM Dear Sweet Ill informed Gnu, Scientists from Great Britian did a comprehensive survey of all the existing weather data collected from around the world for the entire 20th century (where and when available). They published their results about 2 years ago.In short, they concluded that the average temperature has gone up a staggering 1 degree a decade during the 20th century localized and eminating outward from industralized areas. Back in the early 90's a study was commissioned by the US federal goverment under then president Bush SR regarding the ozone layer and global warming. The widely reported results were that the problem was less severe than most thought. The quieter less publicized "We can not stand behind the report the White House issued it is not based on our data , We were pressured to alter our findings" came from the scientists who conducted the study a week later. As far back as the early 80's enviromental scientists were saying watch the frogs, if they go we are in trouble. Last year a study made the news that stated that frog populations were waning. Colder than normal temperatures in some regions and some seasons are not out of sync with the global warming theory, in fact, they support it. Extremes of both heat and cold like the desert at night are part of the scenario.Other weather extremes such as increase in tornadoes and severer hurricane seasons are also part of the equasion. Go ask the residence of tornado alley in US about the last few years. I admit, I myself don't trust science. Scientists tend to prove what they set out to prove and the next scientist can produce a study that refutes everything the last guy said.But, It doesn't take a scientist to know that the Earth is the only planet we got. It doesn't take a scientist to know that severe over population by a species that has removed itself from the natural order and pollutes as much as humans do, could and probably will produce a problem. The sky is not falling. The earth will recover. Humans are resilent and adaptable, some will survive and repopulate. I just don't think we should risk subjecting our grand children or great great grand children to an extremely brutal thinning of the herd. If there is anything that we can possibly do to stop it, we should do it.The worst that could happen is we do the right thing and it wasn't entirely necassary.Most houses don't burn down, should people stop investing in smoke detectors, fire extinguishers and non-flammable PJ's for the kids?
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:02 AM Some interesting points DJH and well put. I'm a scientist and I try to be an open minded one. But I don't blame you for not trusting science. There are several aspects to this: the way scientific research is conducted, it has tended to become "adversarial" and biased as you correctly observe, often based on one or other vested interest that is funding it. Even in my own organization I am warned "remember who you work for" if I rattle the cage although that has only ever encouraged me to do so even more. A good scientist must stand back and take a professional, even view based on the facts just as a good doctor must work on the medical evidence he has. Unfortunately, here in Europe there are some disgraceful episodes where politicians and bureaucrats have blamed or ignored scientists because of there own interests and this has lead to many deaths scandals and a general lessening of public trust in science. I'm sure the same is true across the various ponds. I would regard being called a "tree-hugger" (a term I never heard before this thread) as a real compliment! mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:24 AM If a scientist wants to show that global warming is a real threat she shows temperature data from roughly 1850 to today (e.g., here; scroll down a bit). There are beautiful data from Britain from 1850 to today showing a nearly linear increase. If a scientist wants to show that global warming is no threat he shows the data from Austria from 1700 to today. They look V-shaped with the lowest point at about 1850 and a nearly linear decrease from 1700 (temperatures about as hot as today) to 1850. (sorry I have no link to these data) Global warming in the last decades is an empirical fact and not disputed among scientists. The reasons for the increase (and therefore the prediction of the future trend) are debated. The pessimists (majority) think that the contribution of human activity to warming is significant compared to other contributions as sun activity, volkanoes etc. They think that in the worst case there could be a runaway greenhouse effect in which the balance of earth temperature could be disturbed for bad. The optimists (minority) think that the contribution of human activity is either too small compared to natural causes of temperature fluctuation or that it will be cancelled out by a built in stabilising process (like, e.g., with rising temperature more water will evaporate and more clouds will cooll down the earth again). They think that in the worst case human activity will artificially trigger the onset of the usual natural fluctuations of temperature level. Who's right? We might know in about 200 years. Therefore, for the question of which action to take today, science is not the correct partner to ask. There are theories, models, conjectures, but no decisive answer as much as everybody would like to have it. We can make two possible errors. We can follow the pessimists and they turn out to be wrong and we can follow the optimists and they turn out to be wrong. Ask yourself and the politicians which of both errors would have worse consequences. You have not only to consider what is the probability of a scenario you also have to consider the gains and losses in case it happens
As a scientist I am with the minority in this case, that is I consider it most likely that the temperature regulating system is a system with negative feedback and will therefore on the long run prevent an adverse effect of human activity on global temperature. So though I think it will probably have no influence on global temperature, I'm for protective measures against. Wolfgang
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:41 AM Dear Wolfgang, As ever beautifully put, even though we may disagree on the science, that disagreement is in itself a healthy debate too. At least we can both examine the facts as they exist and take our considered opinions. The ones that annoy me are the pundits who don't even bother to take the time to look and come out with the predictable "kneejerk". Needless to say the trivializing modern media constantly looking for the "confrontational" often doesn't help any in taking the argument forward. Of course there are worthy exceptions as some have pointed out above and at least we must be grateful that some in media positions take a responsible attitude. You are right. There is too much to lose not to take the "precautionary principle" on such an important issue. Our children and grandchildren will not thank if we can't be bothered. mooman (ex-mcmoo) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Fiolar Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:44 AM A recent programme on British television entitled "The Day the Oceans Boiled" gave a frightening picture as the knife edge the world's temperature is balanced on. Apparently the Aamzon basin is sucking up something like 3 billion tons of carbon dioxide every year which is half of what is produced yearly. This depends on the existence of the rain-forest. Should the forest be affected, as in a less rain, then all that carbon will be released and blooey - temperature increases by up to 10 degrees. Goodbye human and other life. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:12 AM Mooman, I made that joke about being called a treehugger because over here in Wyoming and other parts of the US it is used basically as a dirty word by those who also have bumper stickers such as "Hungry? Out of work? Eat an environmentalist." Personally, I love being a treehugger.:-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: JedMarum Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:27 AM I see the favorite anecdotal comments whipping up fears of imminent doom based upon armchair science - I see newsreader interpretations of scientific reports that cast fear and point fingers of blame on popular targets (those darn conservatives, those piggish SUVs, those evil empire petroleum companies) - I see politicians up in arms and rushing to the rescue, offering to fight the evil foes of the environment if only we'd finally elect them to power. I hear little (but there appears recently to be some) meaningful reports from the scientific community that is based upon scientifc method and valid research. The truth is; there is NOT consensus among the scientific community on the meaning of data supporting temperature change theories. I remember the last time Chicken Little sunk her teeth this deep into public awareness. We had seemingly responsible scientists reporting on the nightly news that AIDs would have decimated the earth's population by the year 2000. How is it we forget these panics so quickly and jump whole heartedly into the next one with such reckless abandon? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: pavane Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM There are so many things being mixed up here! Greenhouse gasses are NOT the refrigerants (CFC's)which affect the Ozone layer. The main greenhouse gas is Carbon dioxide. The hole in the Ozone layer is not the cause of global warming Scientists DO know all about the various short and long term cycles (Who do you think discovered them) and take them into account in their predictions. If global warming occurs, then it will probably not be permanent, because increased growth of plankton will eventually absorb the carbon and recycle it to the ocean floor - after many millions of years, that is. Plankton apparently account for 90% of the CO2 which is absorbed - leaving only 10% for all terrestrial plants. How do we find out these things? by going out and measuring, not repeating propaganda and myth. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: pavane Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM Wolfgang - As for the negative feedback, there are two problems. You end up with a highly non-linear system whose action at the extremes is hard to predict, and it only takes a small phase-shift to convert negative to positive feedback, with the risk of uncontrollable oscillation - maybe this is what caused (causes) the ice ages in the first place. More cloud cover causes two things 1. Less heat escapes from the earth because the clouds block the long infra-red Less heat arrives because some sunlight is reflected back into space. As far as I know, it is not yet clear which is the more important |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM pavane,
I completely agree. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:10 AM Armchair science Jed? That sounds interesting! It seems so long since I had the opportunity to be a scientist AND sit in an armchair! From my perspective, the bulk of scientific literature I read on this subject does suggest there is serious cause for concern which is why I feel strongly on this issue. BTW pavane, CFCs DO have a greenhouse effect as well as being ozone depleters, albeit small in relation to a number of other gases. Best regards, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:14 AM Hi to give a bit of support for Shield's - (we're anglo Irish, Geordie back before Richard the 3rd) and born in the states, but as Wellington said about being born in a pig sty, well you know the rest, some of us live here but know what Shields is saying... the US uses 70% of the world's resourses and many many Americans are fearful of loosing their piece of fat, so they look for any excuse to look the other way as Rome burns around them... But, it is not a good idea to do the old, I bet your a... game, even though, I might have done it if you hadn't! It bogs down the process of education, and as the situation takes immidiate action, and the US is running in the opposit direction, we should try to watch our rehtoric, no matter the imotional justification... Damn but it is hot in New York these days. Muggy also... All the best, all, Larry PS we reverce the Welington comment, proud of the Irish resonence in our lives no matter where we are now born... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM Excellently said, Wolfgang. In this thread I find myself in complete agreement with you! Gnu, where'd you go? Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: pavane Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:14 PM mooman - yes I know that CFC's, (and Methane) are also greenhouse gases, but their effects could probably be ignored if we controlled the CO2. Wolfgang - exactly, but no-one knows if we have ALREADY crossed that line. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:17 PM Hi Guys: Just to show that there are a few folks in the USA who care about the present situaiton... This went out over the People's Music Network this morning... re: Global warming and Kyoto.... Larry Dear Friends: > > Because this electronic email will be sent directly to the White House, > this ought to be effective. If you look at the addresses below you will see > that indeed the world is watching. > > The issue is Bush's infuriating and frightening decision to withdraw > from the Kyoto protocol on global warming. President Bush recently announced > that the United States Government will not honor its commitments under the > 1997 Kyoto Protocol to reduce greenhouse gases. The United States produce 25% > of the world's carbon dioxide, a gas that is believed to be the main > contributor to global warming. Rising global temperatures are known to raise > sea levels, and change precipitation and other climate > conditions.Changing climates alter forests, crop yields, and water supplies. > It > could also threaten human health, and harm birds, fish, and many types of > ecosystems. An increase in weather-related disasters will occur, > deserts may expand into existing range-lands, densely populated coastal areas > will flood and large numbers of people will have to move. > > Show you disagree with the Bush Administration's decision to withdraw from > the 1997 Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming. Urge President Bush to review > his policy in this matter and devise a comprehensive plan to reduce US > emissions of so-called greenhouse gases. > > > PLEASE Sign your name, town and country of residence at the bottom of > this e-mail, copy the entire text of this e-mail (do NOT use the forward > button), into a new message and send it to as many people as possible. > > If you see 100 people have signed this message before you, > send this e-mail to the White House at > president@whitehouse.gov > to show Mr. Bush the world is watching. > > Then start a fresh copy of this message with your name as the first signer. > > Thank you. > > |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM Just stumbled across THIS SITE with LOTS of Links to phoaks who are working in all ways, all over the globe, to make our way of living more energy-efficient. Please take a look. There's a lot of interesting looking links. Thanks, kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:30 PM And, here is ANOTHER ONE for EcoIQ, lots of articles etc. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:42 PM Good comments. I'm enjoying it. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: thosp Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:53 PM inquiring minds want to know is DougR a closet treehugger? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Grab Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:00 PM A direct blue-clicky to the article since it's dropped off the front page... John, a BTW - if global warming happens, Britain will actually get _colder_ as the Gulf Stream is diverted away from its current course - in this case, Britain will get a similar climate to other countries on a similar latitude such as Norway... I'm quite prepared to believe that human intervention is changing things. Whether it's the _main_ source of change, I couldn't say. At the time of the Romans, Britain was warm enough that it was a major wine-producing area and had a similar climate to the south of France today. Go figure. Climate change can happen naturally, and in a fairly short space of time; what's at issue is whether humans are the main source of the change. Of course, there's any number of good reasons for not polluting anyway - so many I don't think there's any point listing them in a site visited by intelligent people. Trouble is, it seems to be easier to get things done on the basis of "there's a catastrophe coming and we'd better go balls-out even though it may be too late" rather than by saying "let's just behave sensibly and we'll never have to worry". So long as we lurch from one mock-disaster to another, and the disasters never seem quite as bad as we expected, we may just keep fighting the fire. As soon as there's a disaster that _is_ as bad as we expected, or worse (and Africa is in the grip of this with AIDS, cf. someone's comment above), then all hell breaks loose. Re the article, I'd like someone to explain to me how this would cripple the industry of the US, when other major industrialised nations don't have a problem with it? The US is the richest country in the world, right? So where's this crippling going to come from? Or is it the realisation that the riches are just the money that other countries spent on cleaning up their acts and behaving responsibly - after all, it's much cheaper to shit in the street than to install sewers... Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:34 PM Graham, I assume that when folks talk about affecting the economy they are referring to the cost of implementing the safe-guards necessary to meet very stringent (or more stringent) environmental standards. Also, if the United States is the only source of pollution in the world, I'm not aware of it. Seems to me I have read that China and other countries have a problem with pollution too. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that our country produces more pollution from industry than any other country, because our country is a leader in manufacturing goods. Thosp: I prefer women. However, I am concerned about the environment, and I recycle, don't drive a gas guzzler, etc. I'm probably not as rabid about it as is my friend kat, though. Anyway, most of the trees here in the desert have thorns on them. DougR
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:40 PM Oh sure, now I'm a rabid treehugger!! You better be smiling, DougeR, my dear, darlin' friend! I'm starting to foam!**BG** |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:44 PM I remember the last time Chicken Little sunk her teeth this deep into public awareness. We had seemingly responsible scientists reporting on the nightly news that AIDs would have decimated the earth's population by the year 2000. How is it we forget these panics so quickly and jump whole heartedly into the next one with such reckless abandon?
--Jed Marum
Jed, if I remember correctly, the effect of the scare to which you refer was that people became more mindful about not having unprotected sex. And it's just possible that those very precautions are responsible for the fact that the worst case scenario to which you refer didn't take place. Your example only lends even more credence to the idea that we should take necessary precautions before it's too late. Let me ask you this... would you put yourself at risk of contracting AIDs unnecessarily? If not, why then, would you want to put the earth at risk unnecessarily? Especially since there's no way to predict for certain what will happen if we don't? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:00 PM Sorry guys - just got back to the discussion. Alex - The photos would, I assume, be from when they started taking them up to present. What would that be ? Bert - What's sewage got to do with global warming ? It's a shitty argument. I just called Home Hardware and they don't have any solar powered AC units. You'd think they would because I'm sure they'd sell like hot cakes. Shields Folk - Nope. Canadian. And skeptical of anything that can't be proven. Carol C - Yup to being affected IF. No to agreeing that it will continue to warm up. Mooman - one degree in one hundred years doesn't excite me too much. You suggest I do not have an open mind and that I have an ostrich mentality… I know you are, but what am I. Katlaughing - my humblest apologies for the inconsiderate remark. It was offensive and my lack of thought before typing it is apalling. DJH - ten degrees Celcius in one hundred years ? Gee, I didn't know that. I thought it was one degree. That is a heck of a rise. I might have to put on my walkin shoes ! Do you know the ISBN ? the institution ? whatever ? Anyone know if the release of gasses formed by underwater lava flows contributes to ozone depletion ? Further, I wonder how this stacks up against man made depletion ? Also, I don't understand how the US contributes 25% of carbon dioxide production. How does the US do that ? Oh yeah, I forget who mentioned the incorrectness of equating green house effects and ozone depletion but I did not equate the two. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:01 PM Ok, ok, ok, kat, maybe rabid is a bit too much. I apologize. :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:05 PM DougR As you in the good old US of A manage to manufacture so well, it figures you do polute more than most. The UK bears a great burden for contributing vastly to polution in the 18th 19th and 20th centuries. But If your are so sure about the likely outcome of production and polution, are you that confident (or ignorant) that you are 100%right. The fact that I could guess by the attitude in your posts that you are an American speaks volumes. keep on producing, keep on believing what is convenient. ....OH SAY CAN YOU SEE...... (I'm filling up here) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM Shields Folk, your batting average is only fifty percent since you got gnu wrong. What does that say about English attitudes? (Personally, I'm going to say it doesn't say anything about English attitudes because I don't like to stereotype people based on their nationality.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:15 PM SF... the fact that you think that your guess of DougR's nationality means a rats ass shows your arrogance and your ignorance. Even an ostrich wouldn't stick it's head up it's own ass. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:23 PM Im obviously an idiot at you lot know everything. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:24 PM To clarify my last post so that there is no confusion... I would never steroetype English attitudes or any other nationality or creed or whatever. I would never call people closed minded just because they won't agree with someone until that someone puts forth valid arguements in support of the contrary position. I don't think anyone here is saying that they are 100% right.... except when I took SF to task for his Yankee bashing - I was 200% right. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:30 PM gnu Look up arrogance in a dictionary.. or if its easier look in a mirror. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:30 PM I never called you an idiot. I said you were arrogant and ignorant in reference to your Yankee bashing. Calling yourself an idiot is an idiotic thing to do. Nobody thinks your an idiot. C'mon... can't we all get along ? If this is going to be a serious discussion, I'm leaving !!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:32 PM cheers bonny lad perhaps I am getting carried away. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:34 PM but yer wrang! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:39 PM Shields Folk, when you look at the numbers of posts to this thread from Americans who don't fit your stereotype, don't you think it's a bit unfair to try to fit us all into your rather narrow concept of what Americans are like?
I have not called you an idiot, and I clearly don't know everything. But you seem to have blinded yourself to the possibility that Americans come in all varieties just like everyone else. Why have you ignored the existance of all of the posts from Americans that don't fit into your stereotype? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM I can live with that... wait, that doesn't sound right ! Well, gotta go fire up my V8 Triton extended cab 4X4 pickup with the 16" wheels and off road tires so's I can take my mum and aunt downtown for supper. Glad I've got AC on board because it's muggy today. CLICK. There, just hit the remote so that it'll be nice and cool when I get in. Don't like the heat, me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:45 PM Gnu, Kindly read my various posts properly before making inappropriate personal remarks. What I have clearly said said is that I spend my working life fighting people in power positions with closed minds and an ostrich mentality. I live in a completely different continent to you. I have not resorted to insulting anyone on this thread or demeaning their views as ought to be obvious. Neither is that my approach or style (Wolfgang and I are both scientists and we have a different opinion on this subject but I have personally enjoyed his hospitality and regard him as a friend). It has been an honest and calm debate between people with differing opinions up until now. I would prefer it to stay that way if at all possible. Respectfully, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:48 PM The fact is that over in blighty, Bush's attitude to the Kyoto 'agreement' comes across as American arrogance. Perhaps I have fallen into the trap of thinking that Bush represents al American attitudes. Just like Americans thought that Maggie Thatcher represented all British attitudes. Obviously some Americans do see the world through Mr Bush's eyes. Bye the way youve got to give me 25% for Canadians? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:59 PM Shields Folk, I suggest you spend some time reading the threads that are about American politics. In the Mudcat, at least, you will see that there are a lot of Americans who don't think Bush represents their attitudes. In fact, you'll see that there are a lot of Americans who don't even feel that he got the presidency through legitimate means.
You get fifty percent because you were wrong about fifty percent of the people about whom you guessed. I should give you less than that if I count those of us who don't fit your stereotype of Americans. But I'll cut you some slack since your perceptions about Americans came from GW Bush. ;-) (BTW, I never thought Maggie Thatcher represented all British attitudes.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:03 PM This is from a web site mentioned in another thread 'Wasted Life' It may be of use here! I would use a blue clicky thing but thats just witchcraft. the site is www.slf.com/ I think? "Many of the locals in the FLAG & EMBLEM are from the UK. This means that they are fully equipped with the internationally feared tools of "Sarcasm" and "Irony". In some circumstances, you may find that they say things which, at face value, appear rude/cruel/just downright nasty and lead you to assume they are not nice people. Do not be fooled -- they may just be British" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM Don't underestimate some of us in the irony department, either. Otherwise you might find yourself with your head spinning from time to time. Just a friendly warning... ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:12 PM And yes I have experienced American Tourists. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:35 PM Your dislike of Americans is well noted, Shields Folk. So be it. I trust you did not benefit in anyway from the dollars those American tourists left in Great Britain, and if you did, I certainly hope you contributed whatever it was to a favorite charity. I think you will find, if you are around long enough, that the mudcat is composed of people from all over the world, and not all of us share the same political beliefs. For the most part, however, the folks in this community are civil to one another, and respect the other person's right to his or her own opinion, even if it differs from their own. Basing an opinon of worthyness or unworthyness of a person on what his or her nationality is, I believe, as wrong as basing it on his or her religion, or color of skin. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:44 PM Your completly right. I base my opinions on my experience but everyday in mudcat I learn of others. You want to know why I have a distrust of Americans so I tell you. I bet you as an American, through culture and the media have flawed opinions of others. My initial input to this thread was heavily influenced by the cracking night I had just had in the Pub. I was taking the piss, people were getting too serious. Calm down bonny lad. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:19 PM SF, you've experienced luggage? How does that help your position in the argument? By the way, Bush doesn't even speak for a majority of those who voted in the last election, let alone a majority of Americans. Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:29 PM My experience of European interpritation of American policy on global warming influences my argument. What does your history on politically incorrect jokes influence? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Bert Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM Gnu, I said "pollution doesn't happen either". Some people claim a relationship between pollution and global warming. Way back in the fifties when I first heard the global warming predictions, I was one of the disbelievers. But in the last forty years or so I have seen too many examples of what they were saying then. More extremes of weather. More temperature records being broken. More floods, more tornadoes, more hurricanes. All of these things were predicted and were tied with more pollution generally. "...Home Hardware...don't have any solar powered AC units. You'd think they would because I'm sure they'd sell like hot cakes." No they wouldn't - there is so little interest in the subject that My friend couldn't get financing to go into production even though he had a working prototype. There is so little interest in solar power that that when President Reagan removed the subsidy for solar projects there was little protest from the nation. It's not just air conditioning, it's any solar power. The oil companies make so much money by selling you oil or gas or electricity (much of which is produced from oil) that their sales pitch is powerful enough to overcome what little interest there is in alternative power. Kat is the ONLY Mudcatter who has expressed an interest. If I can get some more people interested I'll call Dave and ask him how many orders he will need to be able to get a loan to start production. Wouldn't it be nice to get you air conditioning for free? Or for just the cost of a circulating fan. Bert. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:52 PM mooman said.... And the answers are equally clear to those who can be bothered to think. moman said... I am getting weary fighting the ostrich mentality. gnu said.... Mooman - one degree in one hundred years doesn't excite me too much. You suggest I do not have an open mind and that I have an ostrich mentality… I know you are, but what am I. moomman said.... Kindly read my various posts properly before making inappropriate personal remarks. gnu SAYS.... if you want to fight, fine. If you want to fight unfairly, f*** you. SF said.... gnu Look up arrogance in a dictionary.. or if its easier look in a mirror. gnu SAYS.... SF, I could do the same thing with our conversation that I did with mooman's above, but I quickly grow weary of those who twist words or invent words and try to put them in others' mouths to attepmt to shed themselves of responsibility for their own words. Like I said, fight fair or .... If that's the way scientists conduct their research, God help us all. Speaking of God, God bless America, and my hulkin big truck - you guys have no credibility. I have proven that.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:08 PM *the above argument is brought to you courtesy of zero Americans* Thank you very much. (Let's face it... we're all human.) Bert, I'm interested, but unable. My air conditioner is attached to my apartment, and I'm not allowed to make any modifications. But if I am ever in a position to buy an air conditioner, I will contact you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM Bert.... can you get the specs for your buddy's solar powered AC ? the works, you know ? operating principles, sizes, BTU's, weights, prices, and the like. As an engineer, I am quite interested. My Home Hardware comment was flippant and I apologize. I suppose I am naive to think that the big corp's would allow such a thing on the market. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:39 PM My Dear friends, I may remind you that I am a judge in an American Indian court. If Shields, and Gnu and a few others were in my court, I would make the world a littler warmer by a Toh anont (order - very rare in my court) that you all go in for an evening in the sweat lodge until you come out hugging! Even after the pub, lets keep it friendly! The issue is SO important, we have to really educate each other and not infuriate each other. As to experinceing American tourests, my wife and I have a number of storries, not the least of which is stopping an American tourest from his attempts to take a wee bit of the Roman Baths at Bath home, while all the English present were so overly polite they did not know how to stop him. Some Americans have to be treated like children, and if you speak sharply to them, they behave. But, insults don't work with ANYONE! Now behave or I will send some folks to bring you all together and into the sweat lodge with ye! Larry PS I heartly recomed a sweat together, would do you all good! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:46 PM If we went to the pub we would probably come out hugging. I'll buy you a pint gnu. and maybe a half for CarolC! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM I forgot DougR, and mousethief! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM I can sweat. I can hug. But that's not an invite for screwing me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM I'm easily forgettable. Don't flog yourself. Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:53 PM but yer still wrang about global warming! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:53 PM Thanks SF. I'll get next round. We'll take it the Sweat Lodge. Hmmmm.... Your Honour... is the Lodge mixed ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:54 PM Me? I never mentioned an opinion about global warming. Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:56 PM By the way, SF, my first comment up there is a play on "American Tourister" -- name brand of a line of luggage. Obscure, I know. Never mind. Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:57 PM Gnu, are you an American? If you are, CarolC's statement is questionable (assuming you were trying to say, Carol, that Gnu spoke for zero Americans). He certainly speaks for himself, which I'm sure most reasonable people would agree, he has a right to do. :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:58 PM It's dead easy buying a round on the internet! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:59 PM thank you but my luggage is English and bespoke! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:00 PM gnu is only an American if New Brunswick is the 51st state. Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:02 PM DougR your not keeping up are you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:16 PM Well, SF if Gnu said he was from New Brunswick, you're right. I didn't keep up. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: GUEST,Sylvester Stallone Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:24 PM Global warming? YO!!! Stallone |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:38 PM gnu didn't say he was from New Brunswick on this thread, DougR. I did say in a post to this thread that he is Canadian. That was what you missed. I know he's Canadian I know because he told me on another thread a while back. Shields Folk, I'll take that half pint if it's as good as the beer I had when I was visiting Canada last winter. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:42 PM (Oops. Don't mind me, folks. I'm from the Department of Redundancy and Repetition Department.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Naemanson Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:10 PM You know, a lot of people talk about whether or not global warming is a fact. As far as I know the mjority of scientists have decided that global warming is indeed happening all around us. The real question is whether or not our species is wholly or in part responsible for it. The science isn't in on that part of the question. But consider this... If we are part or all of the problem and we do nothing we are condemning our grandchildren to a much more difficult life than we have ever seen. If we are not the problem and we do something we will have made our lives better for the improvement in the efficiency and cleanliness of our toys. The answer is obvious. Also, please note that I agree that many times in the past has our planet's climate changed. Each time has resulted in massive extinctions. The human race may indeed survive but we have so damaged the ecosystem that a higher percentage of the living species around us may not make it. That is, a higher percentage than have ever been lost before. At what point does biodiversity go out the window? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: GUEST,Dicho Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:10 AM Just curious. How come I became a guest after a spell as a member?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:17 AM You need to reset your cookie, Dicho. Click on 'membership' in the banner at the top of the page, and click on 'reset cookie' and follow the directions. Don't worry about it. I happens to the best of us from time to time. You'll probably want to have a look through the 'Mudcat Faq' permathread at the top of the list of threads on the home page. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:53 AM I (another Canuck albeit transplanted) cannot agree with Gnu (we will keep to opposite sides of the sweatlodge and we obviously need more than the smell of burning sweetgrass to reach agreement, but like him, I agree that there is much misinformation and half-baked thought out there- and here as well). Looking at pollution alone and ignoring climatic shifts the following thoughts come to mind. The oil companies are stockholder-driven- it is you and me with our investments that determine long range policy (majors of course; small speculative companies have mostly short range strategy). If alternate sources of energy are feasable to the extent that the major world economies need them, the energy companies will find a way to make a profit from them. At present, some sort of nuclear-electrical seems the way of the future (current problem is storage or disposal of waste radioactive material). Wind will work in some areas, but it is hell on bird life and must cover very large areas. Straight solar is seasonal in many areas. Water power for electrical is reaching its limit. Hydrogen has a bright future for automotive transport and the first vehicles will be on sale within five years. Governments have a hard time convincing people to use public transit or to build enough to make it people-friendly (the US and Canada have problems with large distances- I can only envy Europeans with their short distances, centralized population and hence good public transportation. How do we convince people over here to live in high rises, condos, row houses, etc, when everyone thinks they must have their own lawn to mow and space for their horse? Climatic shifts not due to Man are (I think) slow enough that there is time to adjust (I mentioned moving New Orleans upriver as sealevel rises but shifts of this kind can be planned for). All of this boils down to the need for rational thought and long range planning for the future. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:54 AM Naemanson: The telling words in your message, as far as I'm concerned are, "as far as I know." DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:45 AM Like I said in my second post, I AM CANADIAN, but not like the 'nucks ('nyucks ?) in those insipid beer commercials. Well, lots of good stuff here. Seems that we have only one logical approach and that is to combat GW. So, I'm on board. BUT, I need my truck for my business and I can't afford two vehicles, so I will still use it for short trips around town... just the way it is. Bert... my leg's gettin awful long waiting for those AC specs... nudge, nudge, wink, wink. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Naemanson Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:25 AM I'm sorry to have to use those words, Doug, but I do not have the direct quotes close to hand. However, in an interview with a few climate scientists I heard them agreeing that the majority of climatologists agree that the globe is warming up. They just disagree about the causes. Consider this. Back in the 70's there was a shift in the ocean currents along Popham Beach here in Maine and suddenly there was tremendous beach erosion. Everyone was up in arms. Beach cottages were threatened, a popular recreational area was being lost. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent trying to maintain the beach and save the cottages. All to no avail. Finally the state decided to let nature take its course and let the cottages go. Trying to save the area was too expensive. The landowners were incensed and the lawsuits started immediately. This too was a very expensive process. My point is that when the ocean levels start to rise we will be facing calls to save the expensive ocean front properties. And we will be facing very expensive lawsuits when we fail to act. Money will be spent no matter which way we turn. Property losses will be staggering. The pittance we spend now may not do anything but, like in the Y2K problem, isn't it better to try? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:26 AM Gnu, You are proving what you are. My posts demonstrate what I am. I do not twist words. You clearly do. I am not prepared to discuss the matter any more with you. I have visited Canada many times and you are the only unpleasant Canadian I have ever met. Others in this thread clearly have a greater grasp of diplomacy and argument than you do. mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: MAV Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:48 AM Good Grief!
All this bitching and hugging, and I haven't even been here.
Solar AC sounds real likely to be a solution (of course it probably wouldn't work at night).
It is hottest when the sun shines hardest (duh) so you cover your roof with photovoltaic cells (copper or silicon) who's price will continue to go down as production increases.
Your voltage can go to a marine deep discharge battery bank which then drives a 12 or 24 volt conventional refrigerant closed loop evaporative system.
A well insulated house would be ultimately important.
This would be considered a "solution" largely if most people in places like CA were to install it. Think of the job creation.
There are other likely methods of course
Myself....I don't believe in either Air conditioning or CFCs adverse effect on the ozone layer.
The US may create 25% of the 5% of the CO2 NOT caused by nature.
Theat means they DON'T CREATE THE OTHER 75%!
You can draw your own conclusions, as this site illustrates Carbon Monoxide (CO) pollution which is poisonous to air breathers (as opposed to CO2 which we exhale).
CO is a product of incomplete combustion and because it chemically wants to become a stable coumpound it can result in acid rain and the formation of other atmospheric chemicals including CO2.
Cool NASA Visable Earth CO photos
Since it follows that the concentration would be strongest near the source (deep red color) and considering atmospheric drift. It looks like Africa and China are the largest sources of serious CO production nevermind CO2.
It also looks like the US is not.
Here I go
mav out |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 23 Jun 01 - 09:02 AM Hi Gnu: You ask are the sweats co-ed? NO!!! NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! Sorry, missed that part of the argument! You will have to sweat with folks with your own plumbing! One of the worst events I ever had to witness in another tribe had to do with a male/female sweat - the aftermath not the actual sweat! We'll get two lodges going, and when you are both all exhasted and feeling wonderful, stick you both next to a big roaring fire, with lots of friends about and figure all this out! A brief not on "Your Honnor..." When meeting with non-native government or scholastic folks, I allow use of "Your Honnor", in order to show respect to the Paugeesukq Nation, rather than to me, but, as we are a peace maker court, well, here is a wee story. I had suggested that I not be appointed by the council, as I am not native, to which the council chief replied, with a laugh, that I was assimilated, usualy an insult used against natives. So, the after taking the honnor, the first day my cleark called and said, "Congradulations, your Honnor..." "Och, no, Sparrow...," "says I "In a peacemaker court, when I am on the bench, Judge will do, but keep calling me Larry." The next day the phone rings and Sparrow says "HEEYYY!!! Good morning Judge WHITE BREAD!" "I think we can go back to Your Honnor," I say. Play nice and keep talking, All the best Judge White Bread. (Larry) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:58 AM mooman... your last post is, at best, pathetic. Again, you offer conclusions without support. You started it; I finished it. Unpleasant ? Only in return. Diplomacy ? I don't bend over for anyone. Arguement ? You have none. You said, "You are proving what you are. My posts demonstrate what I am." My point exactly ! Thanks for your concurrence. See you at the lodge. Pints are on me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:14 AM Dear Gnu, Again read my posts CAREFULLY. You will see I have insulted nobody here, neither have I been unpleasant to you although you find it necessary to use the f*** word at me without knowing THE SLIGHTEST THING ABOUT ME. I have ALL the arguments I need to back up my case. I have been an environmental scientist for the past 30 years and I do believe I know what I am talking about. I believe you are the only person on this forum that has described any of my posts as pathetic over the past two years I have been here. Next time I am anywhere near you when I next visit Canada I am more than willing to visit you, show you the type of person I am and argue my points and arguments IN PERSON with you. Perhaps we could play some music afterwards. Your offer to buy the pints is much appreciated and the second round will be on me. Respectfully, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:32 AM There has GOT to be some kind of miscommunication going on here, mooman. I will PM you and straighten this out like the gentleman I, and you, am/are. BTW, I still am on your side of the GW issue, like I posted above.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:18 PM Ok, let me get this straight, Gnu is a fellow, (settle this like Gentlemen...) and Shields Folk is a wee girleen... ? Just figureing all this out for the impending sweat.... - Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:24 PM After PM'ing mooman, I think mooman and I understand where I went wrong. After that, I could only see my Irish temper and was reading things into his posts that he had not intended. I believe we can now have pints without bloodshed and I might even be able to march along with him in protest of Global Warming. Still can't see the solar powered AC's taking off, though. Did I miss the specs ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM InObu and your a twat! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: pavane Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:53 PM I can't take seriously the scientific credentials of those who don't even know basic spelling and grammar. Who's instead of whose, your instead of you're and so on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:03 PM arse instead of arsehole |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:11 PM My sister used to be a technical editor for bunch of scientists. She said they (as a group) had the worst grammar and spelling she had ever seen. She didn't mind, though. It was her job security. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:16 PM Perhaps you could get your sister to proof read my posts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:28 PM She might, but she charges money for it. So it appears that the burning question right now is whether or not you are male or female. I think you're male. InOBU is waiting to be enlighetned on the matter. He needs to know in order to determine what lodge to put you in. We haven't asked him if we can have our pints and half pints in the lodges. If you are male, it looks like I may have to be in a sweat lodge all by myself. That doesn't sound like fun. Larry, I want to be in the sweat lodge with the guys. Maybe you can set up a partition so they can't get too close to me. I'll wear more than just my accordion, I promise. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:51 PM Ah well, pints no, insults no, accordians GOD no, in fact one has to remove all rings and foriegn bodies, as it get so hot that one can be burned serriously if one has mettle on, as to spelling, don't fault anyone on spelling, I graduated the 3rd best law school in the states, and as you see, I can't spell, and as far as being called a twat, (which I supose was the intent of the post) I was told by justice Mary Winn, a jurist I have great respect for, from Colville Indian Nation, that a Native judge has to have 7 thickness' of shin, I not only have that, but a rather thick head as well! Now Shields ol' being, I generally agree with you on your politics, though I do think your presentation can use a bit of a tune up! I really think a sweat lodge would do all a world of good. I never had a sweat on your side of the ocean, maybe we can arrainge one! I am a great believer in individual rather than global warming... I do play the tune, An phis Fluich, but though I have heard you are what you eat (I better not go there!) I have not been told we are what we play!!! Best wishes Larry (InOBU - Lorcan Ri - Judge White Bread - or as my father used to call me, "shut up will ye fer God's sake!!!..." or Mr T as Sheilds refers to me, all the same to me!) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:02 PM sorry about the T word InOBU. I thought you were questioning my manhood (or my opinion) with the girly reference. It didn't occur to me that you hadn't figured me out. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mousethief Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:39 PM Has anybody figured you out, SF? And... DO YOU REALLY WANT THEM TO? Alex |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:08 PM Looks to me like he's a man from England (Yorkshire?) who is not happy with what's happening to the environment. It looks like he feels (with some justification, in my opinion) that American consumerism is at least part of the problem. And it's pretty clear that he has no love for GW Bush. He also enjoys a pint or two of an evening, and taking the piss out of the rest of us. Am I close, SF? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Shields Folk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM YORKSHIRE!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:16 PM moo... boo !? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: InOBU Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:42 PM No offence taken, the first great Geordi sweat is to be organised. Shields old man, read, if you will, the letter from the Burmingham Jail, by Dr. M.L. King, Jr. . In making change we need to get well organized with each other and within our selves. Noting the problem is only part of the solution, and though much better than the denial of a problem, we have to build a mighty community of change to bring about a solution, so here's my hand old chum, now lets get to work, to find common ground and work for change. Proposal # 1... To those who oppose the notion that global warming is a reality, you must agree that it is a really bad idea to cut down rain forrest to raise beef sold at McD's in the US, not only for the damage to the environment, but for the ecconomic damage to the US cattle industry... If you all conceed that, then step 2, lets talk about car exhast emmissions, find common ground, and stop spending so much effort butting heads or kicking butts. There is not enough time for that. Cheers, all. Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:45 PM Dear all, Pleased to announce to all that Gnu and I have sorted out our "differences". In fact it all was a misunderstanding and we were on the same side all along! Next time I'm in Canada I sincerely hope we will be able buy each other a pint or two of the local best, play some good music together and laugh about the follies of internet communication. My best regards to you Gnu and, as always, to all my other friends reading this thread and on the Mudcat in general. Pax, mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM P.S. Gnu, I'm Irish as well as if you hadn't probably guessed already! Cheers mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: gnu Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:41 AM Thanks mooman. Slainte Mhath. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:52 PM Reading over some of the earlier posts, Mooman speaks of the ostrich mentality. It is probably the most important point raised here. In an English newspaper I saw many years ago, it was called the "I'm all right, Jack, t'Hell with the rest" attitude. The great majority of the people, in any place, have this attitude. You may get tired of fighting it, but what else, with conscience, can you do? Everybody "muddles through" until a crisis demands action. Emergency actions are expensive, whereas making logical corrections as careful study requires is cheaper. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: pavane Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:36 AM Uncreep the thread! It has been claimed that the single action which would have most impact on reducing emissions and consumption of fossil fules, at least here in the UK, would be for more people to work at home. This could reduce road use by up to 25% Government incentives may be needed in order to convince businesses that it works! I would welcome this, because I drive a lot of miles (currently 80 per day, and often more) just to arrive at a desk to use a PC for work that I could do quite well on my own at home. And as a freelance, I sometimes have to work several hundred miles from home. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Jon W. Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:17 PM As an American, I'd like to remind all the EU members out their that none of their governments have signed the Kyoto protocol either. Frankly I don't believe that it serves anyone's interest but politicians to mandate a standard before the technical solution is feasible. Mandating seat belts and air bags in cars worked because those advances were technically feasible (air bags needed some improvement, so I've heard). Mandating emission-free cars didn't work because they are not technically feasible. I wish they were and I believe they may become so in the not-so-distant future. I'd love to see a solar powered AC. I'd love to drive a zero-emission car. I have recently begun working at home, and it's great. I'd love to see the rain forests left intact, but also see the people who live in and near them be able to afford to live without burning down the trees. Gotta go, more later... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:02 PM Jon W.: Duck! Good luck! :>) DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: Jon W. Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:36 PM Here's more: Yes, let's conserve energy and resources. Yes, let's do what we can to eliminate pollution. Yes, let's recycle where and what we can. Yes, let's find alternate energy sources. Solar makes a lot of sense for some things. Wind makes sense for a few things. Nuclear power makes the most sense for most things but people have a lot of irrational fears about it. And we have to do all this without depriving people of living wages and freedom, and with only moderate changes in lifestyle. Otherwise, folks, it's not going to work. There is simply too much inertia. And a bunch of bureaucrats, diplomats, and scare-mongerers isn't going to do it. It's going to take some dedicated scientists, competent engineers, and a good measure of divine inspiration to solve these problems. Now I think I've said enough. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:52 PM For those of you who are still interested in listening to a discussion on the subject, and can get Fox News Network, Hannity & Colmes is scheduling one tonight on their show (at least that's what the promotions for the show indicate). The show is aired twice nightly. Hannity is a conservative, and Colmes is a liberal. They have spirited debates on a variety of subjects and usually have recognized experts in the subject being discussed as guests. Time zones vary, of course, so both shows may already have been aired in your area. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:28 PM Here's my prediction. We have two choices. We can be the leaders of the innovations that are not only possible, they are inevitable, or we can be lazy thinkers and some other country will do it. And they will have the competitive advantage when they do.
This is what happened to the automotive industry back in the 1970s. The U.S. automobile industry became over confident and complacent. The foreign car industry (principally Japanese) used innovation to capture and dominate the market.
As we speak, some European countries are doing exactly what many Americans are saying is impractical. They will own the market and we will be shaking our heads wondering how they did that. And feeling kind of stupid and looking for someone to blame. We will have no one to blame but ourselves.
"As an American, I'd like to remind all the EU members out their that none of their governments have signed the Kyoto protocol either." They have agreed to it, and they are in the process of preparing to sign it. That's way more than what we have done. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: thosp Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:33 PM sounds like the nail on the head CarolC peace (Y) thosp |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:43 PM I'm re-posting the last part of my last post because it's doing the 'amazing disappearing post trick'.
"As an American, I'd like to remind all the EU members out their that none of their governments have signed the Kyoto protocol either." They have agreed to it, and they are in the process of preparing to sign it. That's way more than what we have done. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:49 PM Ok. I'm re-posting the rest of it because I can see that the whole thing is playing peekaboo...
Here's my prediction. We have two choices. We can be the leaders of the innovations that are not only possible, they are inevitable, or we can be lazy thinkers and some other country will do it. And they will have the competitive advantage when they do.
This is what happened to the automotive industry back in the 1970s. The U.S. automobile industry became over confident and complacent. The foreign car industry (principally Japanese) used innovation to capture and dominate the market.
As we speak, some European countries are doing exactly what many Americans are saying is impractical. They will own the market and we will be shaking our heads wondering how they did that. And feeling kind of stupid and looking for someone to blame. We will have no one to blame but ourselves. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: DougR Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:44 AM I hadn't heard that many foreign countries were on the verge of signing the treaty. Mostly I've heard criticism of Bush because he thinks the accord is flawed. I suppose a fair person might agree that the President of the United States has a right to his opinion too. Bush has said that he would support an accord that he does not considered to be flawed. The foreign countries that are being so critical of Bush would strengthen their argument if they would go on and sign it themselves, IMO. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: CarolC Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:05 AM They're in the process of making the necessary arrangements, DougR. What do you think, maybe time for round two of this thread? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:36 AM Good post CarolC! I attended a seminar of the "European-Japanese Experts Group" (a sort of "think tank") a few years ago and heard a very good presentation by the Japanese Environmental Director (or something similar) of one of the big Japanese electronics companies who had totally implemented the international environmental management standard, ISO 14001, at ALL of their numerous manufacturing sites. He quoted that in Europe legislators often talk of "PPP" (usually an acronym for "public-private partnerships"). In his company they used the same acronym but, this time, standing for "(environmental) "protection provides profits". This struck me as very interesting. The company had completely rationalised its materials procurement and use policy, its energy use, its discharges to water and air (which is basically throwing money down the drain or up the flue), and redesign of the energy usage and radiation emission of its projects (which enabled it to label many of its products "green" which immediately interested a large group of consumers). The implementation of the environmental management process certainly cost them a lot of money but, in the longer term, enabled them to make greater profits due to energy and material savings, less money spent on "clean up" and greater sales. Perhaps this is an example of the type of innovative thinking you were referring to Carol? JonW (25 June, 7:36 post). Most probably its the divine inspiration I'm lacking at the moment! Good idea Carol, let's take this to a (part 2) if people are interested in continuing the discussion! mooman |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Global warming, yes/no? From: mooman Date: 27 Jun 01 - 10:15 AM Clickit here for a continuation of this thread. mooman |