Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

I am sure audiences can tell the difference between good and bad singers the point is they clap for everyone because they are well mannered, which is really what this thread started out discussing.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:03 PM

When I ask for criticism it is from people whose opinions I respect., not people on the net that do not provide any evidence of theirown singing[ example amongst others the anonymous troll on the shirley collins thread]   
for example some while back I aked MGM to listen to a recording of mine, and I took some of his criticisms on board, when I was working in a duo with Richard Grainger we would ask each other opinions on songs we had just written.
when I get unsolicited criticism from people[ in the real world rather than internet forums]whose opinions i do not respect, I listen politely and say nothing.
"Lesson being, don't rely on applause as an indication that your singing is any good."
Not always true.It is often an indication that you have communicated with an audience.
in my experience audiences do sometimes know when a performer has sung really well, to suggest otherwise is an insult to audiences and their critical faculties, I remember performing a song at The Wilsons Folk club, and the song went really well, the audience realised it too., considering the high standard of singing at that club, I think it would be grossly insulting to suggest that they were applauding for any other reason than the song had been performed well.
"Audiences (in general) want you to succeed and will reward a singer for effort - for the best reasons."
no, it depends on the audience, they all differ, that statement can apply to people who come on as floor singers who are clearly inexperienced but have potential but who are nervous., but in my opinion that is about all it applies to.
the higher the standard of singing in a club in my experience the more critical the audience, are particularly if the audience consists of lots of good singers.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 12:56 PM

yes I like to get the self-deprecation in first, it saves disappointment later.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM

Let's not get too cynical - I think we all know the difference between friendly applause and enthusiastic applause, those of us who are prone to self-doubt especially. When I first went to singarounds I used to listen intently to the length & volume of 'my' applause and everyone else's, as far as I could mentally compare them; if mine came out in the top two or three, that was a good night. I'm not so anxious now (and I enjoy the actual singing more as a result) - although I still live in fear of the Polite Ripple.

Conversely, being negative isn't any guarantee of sincerity or good intentions. There's a song by Ed Kuepper with the chorus
"Then I realised that my harshest critics can lie
And they don't even have my best interests at heart"
It changed my life in a small way - before I heard it that thought had never crossed my mind. True though - someone who tells you your singing is crap may not be trying to help you improve; they may just not like your singing (or indeed you).

If anyone's curious, here's some of my singing. Practically perfect in every way (I don't think!).

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 09:07 AM

"Lesson being, don't rely on applause as an indication that your singing is any good."
Very true, in fact quite often the contrary can be the case.
Audiences (in general) want you to succeed and will reward a singer for effort - for the best reasons.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 08:14 AM

The prime example of unsolicited praise in folk settings is the polite clapping no matter how bad the performance. Lesson being, don't rely on applause as an indication that your singing is any good.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 06:18 AM

There is equally a danger of unsolicited praise backfiring.
If you sing badly and someone tells you that you sang well, you are likely to repeat your mistakes; this is especially the case with an inexperienced singer who does not have a history of experience to rely on.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating for unsolicited criticism - I'm suggesting that it is not necessarily as unwelcome and unhelpful as some people are making out.
I see nothing wrong with being made self-conscious of your singing - one of the problems is that some people aren't and just plough on regardless.
Bad praise and bad criticism can equally be extremely damaging, good, well thought out criticism can be invaluable - a gift to treasure.
The argument always put in the Critics Group was that a singer should be his/her own most uncompromising critic, but they should be equally ready accept their triumphs.
That is something to be aimed for - it doesn't come naturally and in the meantime, we settled for and valued the generous help of others.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM

Jim Carroll:

"I wonder if peoples' objection to 'unsolicited' criticism also includes unsolicited praise - if not, why not?"

I've just explained what I think the problem is with unsolicited criticism! Can I quote myself?

"I think there's a real danger of criticism backfiring, however well-intentioned it may be. The effect on me has been to make me much more self-conscious about my singing than I ever have been before - when I'm singing alone I've fallen into the habit of pulling myself up, if I ever think I hear myself going off the note, and taking the line again. But worrying about what sound is going to come out of your mouth is no way to relax into a song - and if you're not relaxed you're much more likely to waver, falter and choke."

The effect on me has definitely been negative - I've been more nervous and more self-conscious & sung worse.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:42 AM

A common human failing we tend to selectively hear the good and ignore the bad.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:08 AM

I wonder if peoples' objection to 'unsolicited' criticism also includes unsolicited praise - if not, why not?
I someone says "I enjoyed your performance" why can't they say, "I thought you made a bit of a mess of....", or, "you really weren't at your best tonight"....
I can understand downright condemnatory criticism not being welcome, but I would have thought that drawing attention to particular aspects of a performance in order to help improve them would have been welcome - they certainly would by me.
This would also include comments on how a club was run - I would much rather receive positive criticism than have people vote with their feet and not turn up again - which happened in spades in the 1980s when British clubs disappeared in their hundreds because of poor performances, not knowing what they were going to be given at a folk club, noisy, inattentive audiences, badly run clubs...... a whole bunch of reasons that could have been put right with a little thought.
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:30 AM

"I hope the person who provided the unsolicited criticism finds another singaround"

I second that!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,A singer
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:33 PM

Craigie Hill, as you point out, very different situations!

And still I completely agree with you when you write: "I think there's a real danger of criticism backfiring, however well-intentioned it may be." In my own situation, I was very glad that I was not the one who criticized the young woman's singing -- which helped me realize that I didn't want to ever provide unsolicited criticism, and if I couldn't deal with someone else's singing then it was easy enough for me to leave. In your case, I hope the person who provided the unsolicited criticism finds another singaround :)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:31 PM

Actually that's not much like my situation. I was the one who was being accused of singing flat, and I was singing solo. It's not for me to say I definitely wasn't flat - in fact, several weeks later, I'm still quite anxious about the possibility I may have been - but I do know I got a good hand after the song, and it wasn't just friends being polite; there were several people there I don't know very well & a few I'd never seen before.

I think there's a real danger of criticism backfiring, however well-intentioned it may be. The effect on me has been to make me much more self-conscious about my singing than I ever have been before - when I'm singing alone I've fallen into the habit of pulling myself up, if I ever think I hear myself going off the note, and taking the line again. But worrying about what sound is going to come out of your mouth is no way to relax into a song - and if you're not relaxed you're much more likely to waver, falter and choke.

In short, unsolicited criticism, from my (perhaps biased) viewpoint, is a great way to put people off performing & shut them up; it's not such a good way to help them improve.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,A singer
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 06:49 PM

I recently confronted the situation Craigie Hill brought up in the original question, although in a different folk setting. Rather than in a singaround, it was in a Sacred Harp singing (traditional American four-part a capella singing).

I'd been singing with these folks for a few years, and it's a supportive group -- positive feedback when you do well, no negative feedback when you screw up. Like the others in the group, I worked hard at improving my singing -- listened to recordings of traditional singers -- went to workshops (they're called "singing schools" in this tradition) -- etc.

A little while ago, a young woman started coming to this singing. She had impeccable credentials -- had sung Sacred Harp for several years, had traveled and with traditional singers, had read many books on the tradition, etc. But her high notes were very flat, and she sang *very* loudly. Ouch.

One of the respected elder singers, a kindly older woman, approached this young woman and suggested in the nicest possible way that she might sing a little more softly because it might help her to match the pitch of the other singers better. Tears and a very emotional scene ensued. The elder singer gave up, the young woman went on singing loud and flat, the group as a whole decided that being completely supportive to all singers was more important than sounding good.

I put up with it, but I wasn't happy. Eventually a friend of mine who is a professional singer said to me: Sometimes you find that you've moved beyond a group that you've been singing with. (Note that my friend was not suggesting that my singing had gotten any better!) So I went out and found other people to sing with.

Now I'm definitely *not* saying that the answer to Craigie Hill's question is to leave the singaround. But I *am* saying that in *my* case the answer was to leave -- as much I like all those nice people I'd been singing with for so long, it was time for me to go find musicians who would push me to sing better. And I'm eternally grateful to my friend the professional singer for getting me to face up to that. And maybe this will resonate with someone else who reads this thread.

(((...and I'm going to post anonymously to protect all concerned...)))

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:50 PM

Richard Bridge asked: where I might enjoy an evening sing near Brighton?

Not at all embarrassed to say that my club, Brighton Acoustic Session is on the first Monday of the month at The Prince Albert, Trafalgar Street, BN1 4ED (50 metres from Brighton Station)

The indefatigable Ian Fyvie runs three weekly sessions in Brighton:

    Sundays: The Mitre, Baker Street, BN1 4JN
    Tuesdays: The Round Georges, Sutherland Rd, BN2 0EQ
    Wednesdays: The Pond, Gloucester Road, BN1 4AQ

There is also Mandy Murray's Irish session every Monday:
    The Foundry, Foundry Street, Brighton BN1 4AT

In nearby Lewes - 11 minutes from Brighton by train - you have:

    Every Thursday Folk at the Oak: The Royal Oak, Station Street, BN7 2DA (Until its closure on December 19th, 2013)   

    Lewes Saturday Club The Elephant & Castle, White Hill, Lewes BN7 2DJ

In the surrounding area there is more information here: Folk Music in Sussex

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 03:28 PM

MacColl once told us that he couldn't bear to listen to his early recordings - they made him cringe - "too slow, to theatrical, too much vibrato".
He was never the subject of a full criticism at the Critics Group; I have little doubt that neither he nor the rest of the group would have welcomed it.
I lived with Ewan and Peggy for a time and often accompanied them on trips to their various bookings.
I was at first staggered, then I got used to the way both of them tore into and critically analysed their own and each others performances each time.
I declined their invitation to join in - I'd have been totally out of my depth.
I often wonder if the Critics Group would have achieved as much as it did had MacColl just been 'one of the lads' rather than the respected figure he was.
I've told this story before, but here goes again.
I was asked to repair their rapidly deteriorating lighting system at the time Ewan was writing the 1968 'Festival of Fools' script (annual living newspaper' put on over the first couple of weeks of the New Year).
It was late December and the light was poor in their flat so I had set myself a deadline of re-wiring so many lights in a day.
On one particularly gloomy day I badly overestimated how many I could manage, so was racing around like a madman trying to get them finished before the daylight entirely disappeared.
Late in the afternoon Ewan appeared from his self-imposed exile at the top of the building and insisted that Peggy and I sit and listen to him read through the script he had written and make comments on it so he could finish it and distribute it for rehearsal that night.
We sat there in almost total darkness while he took notes on what we suggested then returned and finished the job.
We ate by candlelight that night.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:51 AM

Just curious - how did MacColl react if somebody pointed out a shortcoming in his own performance?

In the case of Olive and Dick Miles we don't have to guess.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:30 AM

Guest, Stuart Reed - I may have to go to Hove soon to visit some clients and I had been looking for a chance to folk down there in the evening, just for a change of scene - so while you doubtless do not wish to be publicly embarrassed, would you very kindly become a member and PM me where I might enjoy an evening sing near Brighton?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:46 AM

"If a club opens its doors to the public and advertises a certain type of music, the organisers take on the responsibility of ensuring, as far as possible, that those coming through the door are given the opportunity to listen to that music in the best possible conditions (given the prevailing circumstances) and to a standard that doesn't fall below 'acceptable' to a listener (not the case if you are just a bunch of mates sitting round to 'have a sing')"
in my opinion it is better to have folk clubs in seperate rooms, people ten come specifically for the music.
"I believe that most people have the ability to be singers and with work, can become good singers."
I agree with that, but with the proviso that "good" stylistically is debatable, I do agree with you that a lot of the singing exercises advocated by The Critics group will improve the technical ability and improve confidence of singers.
I do not agree about the importance of the head voice, or Bert lloyds idea of singing with a smile, These are ideas of a certain group in the folk revival and do not seem to be common amongst UK tradtional singers here is harry cox singing in his natural voice,no use of head voice, the same applies to fred jordan.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsxG06FMA-Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh5i_M5kkxg

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:21 AM

I didn't bother re-visiting this subject in the hope that the unpleasantness would disappear.
A word on the original subject - hopefully without the hassle.
If a club opens its doors to the public and advertises a certain type of music, the organisers take on the responsibility of ensuring, as far as possible, that those coming through the door are given the opportunity to listen to that music in the best possible conditions (given the prevailing circumstances) and to a standard that doesn't fall below 'acceptable' to a listener (not the case if you are just a bunch of mates sitting round to 'have a sing')
I believe that most people have the ability to be singers and with work, can become good singers.
Clubs - singers gathering together regularly to sing - provide excellent opportunities to encourage people to start singing and develop as singers; it largely depends on the will of seasoned singers to devote time, thought and energy to working with others.
Virtually every club I have been involved with developed a workshop to give advice and access to material to develop repertoires and assistance, should it be requested.
We found the best method of work was through self help groups giving positive, friendly and practical advice; in that way workshops became two-way streets in which all benefited - we were all students who took something away from the work we did..
We fought against the idea that clubs should be used as places to rehearse and we never encouraged singers with major problems to work those problems out in front of our audiences - not fair on the audiences, on the other singers, and certainly not fair on the music which we felt was important enough to pass on.
Certainly not the only way of helping singers, but it worked for us and it's still working for me now that I have returned to singing after a long gap.
Jim Carroll
A couple of footnotes.
We are at present considering a radio programme which we hope will cover the work done by MacColl, which will certainly cover his work with The Critics Group.
Our collection of Clare songs (280 of them) will be going up for public access on the Clare County Library Website in the new year - a wealth of songs from some of the county's finest singers

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM

in fact I think basil fawlty is a good take off on a "certain kind of Englishman". a kind often found at folk events pontificating on things they know little or nothing about.

they are found in many areas but culture has caught up with them in most. however folkies are so misinformed and have such convoluted theories--which mostly explain why the way they do it is right--that they can get away with it at folk scenes.

kind of like neo Marxist theoriest who passed through most university departments to retreat to law faculties where no one pays enough attention to bother doing any real critique(at lerast in Canadian law schools).

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM

Vic Smith wrote: A young couple walked into a folk club in Brighton recently. No-one on the door...they had no idea of the etiquette and no-one had greeted them and explained what was going on...

As the organiser of the club in question I hold my hands up and admit that it was a toe-curling moment but at the time felt that the whispered conversation between the young couple might well have been on the subject of the dismal performance of the singer in question - and shared by the rest of the audience.

As he is well known in the area to be one of those performers whose self belief is in inverse proportion to his talents, I felt that a subsequent reprimand would have been water off a duck's back.

Having decided against charging an entrance fee, we do get a good number of curious drop-ins (walk-ups?) who put their heads round the door. Ours is a buzzing music city, bursting with music venues and, unlike the couple in question, many's the stray punter who has stayed to listen to the perhaps unfamiliar sound of traditional music.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 01:56 PM

I `ad that Craigie `ill in my cab the other day. `e was looking quite thoughtful and reading `is copy of that new Penguin folk song book.
I said, " Morning Craigie. Penny for `em. I see you`ve been doing your thing on that Mudcat about criticism."
`e said, "Aye, that`s a fact, Jim. Look at this. I`m trying to get "Lord Lovell" perfect for tomorrow night. It`s so blooming dis-couraging and a "downer" when you flog your guts out on a number and someone comes up picking `oles in your effort."
I said, "Craigie, you just get on and do your songs the way you like `em. There are far worse things in China than a few know it alls."
`e said, "What`s that then?"
I said, "They can "boo" you, chuck things at you or drag you off by the scruff of the neck!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 01:35 PM

let me re-phrase my clumsy statement. What the critic said i.e. "nice song, shame about the bum notes" may have been true. telling you this is impolite.
I don't make a habit of criticising performers but I will tell someone if their instrument is way out of tune. As I have said before the setting is an important factor. If it is a public setting I would not be surprised to receive comments about a performance.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:53 PM

Oops - don't know what happened there.

johncharles - what's correct about criticism? I've heard some dreadful performances in my time; I've seen some ugly babies, too. Never volunteered criticism, though. Do you yourself make a habit of offering unsolicited criticism?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:46 PM

In the situation Vic describes it looks to me like the issue is really one for the landlord, since one customer is hassling others out of the promises. The folk club doesn't come into it.

The appropriate damage-limitation action would have been for them to collar the singer, shove him out in the street and invite the couple back in for a complimentary drink.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:37 PM

Unsolicited criticism in some settings may well be considered impolite, however, that does not mean it is necessarily incorrect.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 11:47 AM

It would also have been a totally different discussion. It's actually the manners that I'm interested in - the thread's called "Criticism at singarounds", not "How's my singing?".

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:39 AM

This would have been a much shorter discussion if you posted a song and received sensitive feedback. After 400 posts what you have got is a lot about manners, and hypothetical reasons as to why these people may have commented on your singing; nothing about your actual singing.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM

cooperman - "Help from one pro to another maybe. They probably wouldn't say anything to a beginner or someone they suspected would take it badly."

That's a really good way of looking at it - ta!

Vic - the pitching thiing; it was six of one, I think. I know I can rely on my pitching, generally - once I've got a song off it almost always stays where I pitched it - but that night I was recovering from a cold & I think my top notes were a bit rough. But I don't think I should have sung the song lower, just dropped it until I was sure my voice was 100%.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 09:18 AM

Dick wrote:-
"very good post, vic, how would you have dealt with that situation?"
Well, if it had happened in my club, here's what I ought to have done.
1] Gone after the young couple, apologised on behalf of the club, told them that such an occurrence was highly unusual, that the singer was out of order and that I hoped that they would come and try us out on another evening. If they did come again, make sure that they had a friendly greeting from me.
2] Speak to the singer on his own, tell him that anything to to with the conduct of the audience (or performers) that needed addressing was a matter for someone from the club organisation and not for him.

However, I have had time to think about it. Whether I would have been quick-witted enough to do it as the time, I don't know. We can all be wise with hindsight.

Craigie Hill wrote:-
"One suggested I was pitching too high & missing top notes as a result, the other said I was wavering around the tune at the start."

a) Pitching - ask yourself if the comment was valid. I know that I have been cross with myself for pitching things too high on occasion and I do hear it from others though I would not comment unless I was asked.
There is a double album by one of my favorite Scots traditional singers. I admire this man's singing great, but there are probably around 6 tracks where he has pitched the song too high and his great voice sounds strained on the top notes - and this is on CDs so it is there for all time. I wish I had been in the studio when it was recorded; I know him well enough to have said, "Listen to the playback of that track. Have you pitched it too high? Do you think that you should record that one again? If it is an accompanied song that you have been singing for years, you have to be aware that with age, your singing range will diminish, particularly with age and that you may need to put songs in a lower pitch.

b) wavering around the tune at the start - This is very common, particularly when people are singing unaccompanied. Finding the tune by the end of the second line, say, is a characteristic of many field recordings. I am so used to hearing it that I scarcely notice it any more and am tempted to say that it does not matter that much.

The great Isabel Sutherland - whom I greatly admired and learned a lot from - used to introduce her songs and then close her eyes for about 3 or 4 seconds then open them and start singing. I asked her why she always did that. She said that she was finding the exact spot in her head where the right pitch, the tune and the opening lines of the song were located. I have tried that and found that it works.
If you are singing to an accompaniment then the instrumental accompaniment can serve this purpose.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: cooperman
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 09:04 AM

You may have hit on the explanation by calling it information (rather than criticism). Help from one pro to another maybe. They probably wouldn't say anything to a beginner or someone they suspected would take it badly. If that's the case then it's a kind of compliment. Just a thought.
I would say most people tend to be too self critical with their own recordings.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM

Dave - two different people, two different criticisms. Both older, time-served pro or semi-pro folkies. One suggested I was pitching too high & missing top notes as a result, the other said I was wavering around the tune at the start. Both volunteered this information without any prompting from me.

Jack - recording, yes, many times. People have downloaded my recordings (people I don't know, even). Hard to tell, though - once you start worrying, things start to sound worse the closer you listen ("that was on pitch but was it RIGHT on pitch?", "did I get that passing note or did it get lost?"). (I've worked up June Tabor's version of Waly Waly/Jamie Douglas but I'm shy of singing it out - particularly after the month I've just had - not because it's a sod of a tune with a lot of chest/head breaks but because one passing note keeps eluding me, viz. the second note in "...down the brae"/"...I would go". I am quite self-critical, generally.)

I really think it might be something about me (attracting unsolicited criticism that is, not singing badly). At work I had a very good friend who I eventually had to drop, because every single conversation was either a monologue about his projects or else "you know what your problem is... that's you all over... you're your own worst enemy..."' etc, etc. Sympathetically packaged but a bit discouraging after a while. Maybe I'm just walking around with a Slap Me face.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds. It sounded brillian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 06:59 AM

oh who's bothered - just read what you lot have been up to while I've been on holiday. I used to love Tony Capstick's singing. It doesn't really matter if he was doing it right. I thought he was wonderful - I always requested The Bonny Bunch of Roses. The way he sung that song used to tear my heart out every time.

Jim and GSS - kiss and make up! we're all mates here.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:59 AM

ubject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:13 PM

"A young couple walked into a folk club in Brighton recently. No-one on the door, it is run on a collection-at-the-interval basis. Their first visit, so they had no idea of the etiquette and no-one had greeted them and explained what was going on. They walked up to the bar in an alcove and ordered a drink and carried on talking whilst they waited for their drinks to come. An experienced singer/guitarist and ex-folk club organiser was singing at the time. He continued singing but walked towards them. When he reached them, He stopped singing and said, "Not spoiling your conversation, am I?"
They did not not wait for their drinks but walked out. I would suggest that this criticism of potential audience was not a very clever move."   
very good post, vic, how would you have dealt with that situation?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:51 AM

Dear Craigie, can't Pm you as you are signed in as a guest.
The comments will only ever really be able to address the etiquette of criticism. How good your singing is could only be judged by hearing it.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 03:54 AM

Craigie - Was it the same person or someone different this time and was it the same type of comment?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:54 PM

Who told you the people offering/giving advice know jack shit about any of it?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:49 PM

Craigie - the two things that come to mind are:

- have you tried recording yourself and listening to the result?

- do you know anything about the people offering the unsolicited criticism? do they make a habit of it?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:25 PM

Sadly, the letters ITMA can also, sometimes, stand for Irish Traditional Music Association.

Never 'eard of 'em! Now, I DO know about the Irish Traditional Music Archive , a splendid institution and nothing to be sad about… !

;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:15 PM

I was going to abandon this dead thread - and this signed-out pseudonym with it - but by jingo, it's happened again! This very night!

I am seriously peeved about this but also seriously puzzled. As I might have mentioned I have been doing this stuff - at the level where I do this stuff, ie FC floor spots and singarounds - for ten years no less. (When I started doing floor spots one of "my songs" was Between the Wars, because back then it still was.) Since then I've learned at a conservative estimate a hundred songs or so, and given god knows how many performances at the aforesaid FCs and singarounds. In all that time nobody has actually said I ought to charge people money, but equally nobody has ever, ever taken it on themselves to tell me my singing was less than adequate. Until now, when it's happened twice in a month.

W as the kids say TF? Has my singing gone into a sudden decline? Is it (An Optimist Writes) actually a sign that I'm doing well, in that highly accomplished folkies - who do charge people money - think it's worth giving me unsolicited hints & tips? (If so I wish they'd revise their opinion of me downwards and start ignoring me again - these helpful hints are doing my confidence, & hence my performances, no good at all.) Or am I just wearing a Kick Me sign all of a sudden?

Ideas? Better still, PM me, somebody. (I guess it would be easier if I posted under my own name, but I don't feel quite ready to do that.)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:13 PM

A young couple walked into a folk club in Brighton recently. No-one on the door, it is run on a collection-at-the-interval basis. Their first visit, so they had no idea of the etiquette and no-one had greeted them and explained what was going on. They walked up to the bar in an alcove and ordered a drink and carried on talking whilst they waited for their drinks to come. An experienced singer/guitarist and ex-folk club organiser was singing at the time. He continued singing but walked towards them. When he reached them, He stopped singing and said, "Not spoiling your conversation, am I?"
They did not not wait for their drinks but walked out. I would suggest that this criticism of potential audience was not a very clever move.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 05:17 AM

I wear mine on my head:

Cap

Oh, I see.... cap-'o'

After playing autoharp in a club some years ago, one nutter approached me afterwards and said, knowledgeably, "I have an autoharp capo."

Yeah, right.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 05:08 AM

There you go, Phil - I said someone would tell you where to put the capo!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Eldergirl
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM

LOL!! Thanks johncharles, for further brightening my Saturday morning!! I can think of one or two necks who'd benefit from a capo!!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 02:50 AM

Re Capo: the capo should be carefully applied to the neck. This will allow the singer to produce the intermittent squeaky tones which harmonise so well with those of the concertina.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 04:03 PM

I agree Jim.
my advice is not to sound like bert lloyd or the critics group, all that is, is an opinion, i also said"it is of course completely up to people how they wish to sing styslitically".
so jim, when my whole post is quoted in its entirety, it makes a nonsense of your own post.
as i have stated before and in many other posts, MacColls contributions to the folk revival were overall very heavily into the plus side, so jim please stop being so defensive.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 05:00 AM

Never worked out where the capo was supposed to go either.

Careful now, Phil - someone may tell you one day...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:57 AM

I tried using a pick once, but it makes the concertina sound awful. (Never worked out where the capo was supposed to go either.)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: PHJim
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 02:06 AM

GUEST,ollaimh said,"but guitar players, learn to finger pick. it's a ;lovely instrument when picked and pretty dull most of the time when flat picked. you have to be twice the guitarist to make flat picking interesting. it can be dome but few do it."

Flat-picking can be quite tedious if people just strum across te strings, but most flat-pickers with any skill at all will insert bass runs and play bits of melody. Those with more skill can make the guitar sound wonderful.
I have heard finger-pickers who play the same pattern or arpeggio through the whole song, which is just as tedious as the strumming flat-picker.
But no one's gonna tell Tony Rice that he should learn to finger-pick nor tell Leo Kotke that he should take up flat-picking.
I like to do some of each, just for variety.