Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:18 PM

Catching up - not in any way intending to reopen any squabbles - just picking up on a couple of points which appear to be beyond his comprehension.
Lloyd, MacColl, the Critics Group.... and everybody else I ever met involved in workshops, folk clubs, concerts, standing up in front of large (even medium-sized) audiences made of largely strangers and attempting to handle large repertoires covering the whole spectrum of folk song repertoire and styles - none of these were traditional singers and all were facing very facing a very different situation of that faced by Sam Larner, Harry cox - et al.
Those of the older singers who had sizeable repertoires of wide ranging songs demanding different approaches tended to sing them all within a very limited range of abilities and styles
That singers like Bert Lloyd used his 'grin' to produce a hard tone while traditional singers like Harry Cox didn't it totally immaterial and to raise it here is destructive to any form of helpful discussion - I never met a traditional singer who attended a workshop, a lecture, or sought the services of a diction coach - all the things the individual who described bert's 'grin' as trying to "I would advise against doing this [unless you want to sound like bert lloyd]"
This is a discussion on how to help singers - it is not an attempt to gain customers for one type of singing class or the other.
Traditional singers adopted all sorts of tricks to overcome problems of singing in public- we've encountered descriptions of older singers who sang in to a corner in order to stay in tune, street singers who sang with one hand cupped over their ear to hear themselves over traffic noise, singers who sang with their cap over their faces to overcome nervousness of facing an audience - one singer we heard about stood on tip-toe in order to "reach the high notes".
This is not a competition to gain the most supporters for one particular method or another - it is an attempt to share ideas in order to help improve the standard of singing - it would be helpful if everybody treated it as such rather than attempting to undermine other's suggestions by misrepresenting and debunking them.
" my advice is to be yourself[ not be an imitation of anyone BERT lLOYD OR ONE OF THE CRITICS GROUP"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: rosma
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 08:33 AM

A singaround is really very much like a forum such as this (Mudcat). When you turn up, you should spend some time looking and listening, to understand what is done and what is not. If the geneal standard of performance is stratospheric in comparison to you, you're probably best not even trying. On the other hand if you're invited to have a go, be modest, try something and see what the reaction is.

The singarounds I have attended in the last twelve years or so have all been very welcoming and non-judgemental in the sense that they don't criticise the performer to their face (even if there is some discussion when they're not around), but more importantly, everyone is asked to perform. This last point is very important. Someone I knew about 20 years ago at a singaround I used to attend was frankly very poor both in singing and playing. The organiser however encouraged him and wouldn't hear anything bad said about him. It was that encouragement that ended up with him being a pretty proficient player today.

It isn't criticising anyone at my current club to say what sort of "offences" are committed, because I commit all of them myself (some more often than others): bum notes, read words, forgotten words, key changes, wrong tunes, poor playing - I don't think there's a single person in the room who wouldn't admit to at least one of these on occasions. Any laughing is done with (not at) the performer, knowing their temperament to be able to cope with it. surely the point of a singaround is to allow people to sing. The enjoyment of the evening comes from singing as well as from listening. If the performances are a bit variable, it's a matter of congratulating the best and encouraging the poorer ones. Whatever happens, everyone is applauded.

Simon

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 09:59 PM

Just been to a well established singaround here in Yorks.

General standard of performance was exceedingly good. But it included well established singers who always read the words, instrumentalists who really struggled to get their notes out of their instruments, and some teenagers who sung some really introspective modern stuff (The word 'I"' was most prevalent, as it is in modern songs, but how do you criticise it?)

The fact that teenagers were there at all must be a huge bonus.

(Back on topic). You don't criticise it or the performers, unless they ask you for criticism.

You either accept the situation as critical audience or you don't. If you don't, you move on.

But the performers remain. (Hopefully)

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 07:01 PM

i must be hanging around very different singine events. I don't often hear anyone sing out of pitch.

You know what, ollaimh, neither do I. But I think it's because I'm not listening for it. The thing is, there isn't a single pitch that you either hit or don't - there's a whole spectrum, with "grabbing for the note, just about making it but only hanging on by your fingertips" on the outskirts to "pure tone, dead on pitch, I could listen to that all day" in the centre.

But you need to be listening to the pitch to hear the difference - and most people just listen to the song. There's an old cliche about how actors console each other when they mess up - "don't worry, the punters never noticed a thing" - and I think in this case it's actually true. If the high note you hit once, or the passing note you dash over, is on the low end of the acceptable spectrum, never mind: most listeners aren't even going to notice. Your fellow musicians are likely to notice, though. Should they bring your lapse to your attention? Unless it's really obtrusive - which it's unlikely to be - I tend to think, probably not.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 04:20 AM

If you are someone who forgets the words, look for tunes where the verse order is not important, mostly drinking songs, appalachian and sea shanties. You can encourage others to play interesting twidly bits round the tune inbetween your verses.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 07:16 PM

i must be hanging around very different singine events. I don't often hear anyone sing out of pitch. I hear people who should use their diaphram more and who sometimes can't reach a certain note (probably because of nerves and dry mouth) but I rarely hear anyone sing out of pitch or off key.

I do think guitar player shouldn't be issued their flat pick until they have finger picked for at least five years, and have passed the flatpick licence board, but I don't try to enforce that at any music venues.

I do get really annoyed when people either talk loudly near a performer or try to rearrange their kit while they are performing, but again that's rare. and I hate people reading the lyrics off a cell phone.

the only time read lyrics of any kind are ok , is when an issues comes up at the event and you know a perfect song but can't remember the lyrics, and then only if you are good at cold singing from sheets or cell phones, which most people are not. I did gigs for a few bands over the years and had to use sheets as they did stuff I never sing, so I got good at reading and singing at the same time. it isn't as expressive as when you know the lyrics but it can be done very well, if you practice the art. best practice is at a lot of gigs. then you will actually try not to look a fool and quickly prefect technique of fast reading.

but guitar players, learn to finger pick. it's a ;lovely instrument when picked and pretty dull most of the time when flat picked. you have to be twice the guitarist to make flat picking interesting. it can be dome but few do it.

and Englishmen don't want to look silly?   I thought they were doing that on purpose. isn't fawlty towers a documentary?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 04:28 AM

the person that criticised elder girl was mistaken, it is possible for anyone to forget words occasionally,[ professionals in many musical genres have occasionally done it ] I also think criticism should not be given publicly unless specifically requested.
As far as I am concerned the only thing that is unprofessional is to not bother to practise, every human can make an occasional mistake for a number of different reasons, tiredness, biorhythms etc, the most important thing is the willingness to improve,and the realisation that practise is important.
By continually using crib sheets, the person is in my opinion admitting defeat, Rather than trying to overcome a confidence or memory problem.
Finally taking deep breaths before one sings is a very useful way to relax oneself it also has the benefit of sending oxygen to the brain,being conscious of diet and avoiding certain foods and cigarettes can also help with the problem for singers of catarrh related problems

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 03:56 AM

how true.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: PHJim
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 08:40 PM

Tell her Charlie

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 08:47 AM

here is an example of a singer who has been acknowledged by many as being a very good traditional singer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsxG06FMA-Y
if one listens to his singing, he sings in a norfolk accent but his diction is clear, he does not sing like bert lloyd with a smile on his face.
JIM SAYS
"Anybody who ever saw a live performance by Bert Lloyd will have been aware of his habit of 'grinning' while performing - not so much a reflection of his (I'm sure) sunny outlook on life but a deliberately contrived technique to produce a hard tone on some songs, contrary to the somewhat light, airy one he generally used.."
It is clear IF ONE LISTENS that HARRYCOX did not do this, he sang naturally.
I have never heard a traditional singer sing in the way[ and i hve listened to a lot] bert lloyd did, with a contrived technique to produce a hard tone, I can only assume this was an Idea introduced into the revival by lloyd, there appears to be no examples of this amongst english traditional singers.
I would advise against doing this [unless you want to sound like bert lloyd]
her is fred jordan[tradtional singer] singing with a shropshire accent, but diction still clearhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh5i_M5kkxg
jim carroll, again
"The command and use of tones to handle different types of songs and to produce variation in a performance of a number of songs, was one of the major features of the work of the Critics Group"
There is no evidence in either of the two traditional singers enditions[harry cox, fred jordan] of this contrived technique.
it is of course completely up to people how they wish to sing stylitically, my advice is to be yourself[ not be an imitation of anyone BERT lLOYD OR ONE OF THE CRITICS GROUP.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 07:22 AM

The question of what is make up good singing style wise, is subjective.
Revival singers/performers that I rate such as Tony Rose Martin Carthy NicJones,Bellamy.
Jim Carroll has on previous occasions indicated they are not to his taste, I am indeed happy that Carroll does not rate me either, In my opinion I am in good company, that which is good style is a matter of taste and opinion.
however Jim Carrolls advice which comes from various Critics groups as regards singing is I think very good, the advice on breathing and vocal exercises and many other things is useful and should improve everyones singing.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:30 AM

john charles,in an earlier post said"There is hope for us all then if it is not necessary to be really good in order to make a living from folk singing."
I think that is an interesting and extraordinary statement.
I think it is necessary to attempt to be good, that involves practice and a certain amount of natural talent[ however natural talent without hard work is not enough].
listening to one self, being self critical and working on improvement are important, however I do not think it is necessary to be a virtuoso[someone who is really good].
my opinion is this it is necessary to have a varied repertoire [varied in subject matter, tempo, keys]
various accompanying instruments played to a standard of competence can add to an overall effect of variety, but are not an absolute necessity.
[Roy Harris managed to provide excellent evenings unaccompanied] abilty to communicate with[rather than to] an audience, good presentation.
it will happen occasionally [and it has occasionally happened to me] that a professional performer will be tired etc and may forget the occasional word, the professional knows how to deal with it, that is to make light of it and carry on, that is part of the art of performing.
Finally professionalism involves showing respect for material and audience, it is an insult to both.. to get so drunk that the performer is unable to deliver.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:15 AM

I knew Sydney Keith ("Sam Scram" among other characters) as an acquaintance in the Barley Mow in Brighton's Kemptown area - we all knew him as "Sam", but even Sydney Keith wasn't his real name.

He was a great character and well loved. He'd lived life to the full and was absolutely broke when he died. We all chipped in and went to his funeral service at Brighton Crem - and had a good drink to him in the Barley Mow afterwards.

Nearly as much fun, I'm sure, as the Irish Traditional Music Association...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:56 AM

ITMA concert
Fot those who do not know, the initials stand for It's That Man Again and I am delighted to be told that the great Second World War Radio Comedy show is to be revived. All of us who listened to it during the dark days of the blitz will remember what a boost it was to our morale. I never missed one of the 310 wartime episodes. It will be great to see all those great radio stars united again - Tommy Handley, Hugh Morton, Cecilia Eddy, Eric Egan, Sam Heppner, Lionel Gamlin, Vera Lennox, Maurice Denham, Jack Train, Dorothy Summers and Sydney Keith - though some of them must be getting quite elderly by now.

Sadly, the letters ITMA can also, sometimes, stand for Irish Traditional Music Association.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 05:41 AM

eldergirl,forgetting words can occasionally happen to anyone, professional or otherwise, it happened to elvis presley he laughed and said i must have sung this thousands of times and carried on

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 03:16 AM

Not going to be around for a few days - off to Dublin for the ITMA concert, but (if this thread has disappeared - hopefully not) anybody interested in following up the Critics Group work can PM me.
I've been trying to get the material we've gathered together a long time in an accessible form and I seems to be coming together at long last.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:26 PM

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:19 PM

I can recall being taken to task for being unprofessional at a sing around because I forgot the words half way through the first line, suffered a major Brain Fade, I'd been singing the damn song all day, all through, and it simply deserted me when it was most wanted. so I stopped and sang another song instead. but it was a sing around. don't we all try new stuff at singarounds? and it wasn't the host who got at me, it was a semi-pro with a relatively good opinion of himself... (oh, mee-ow) but I'm not A Professional, I do this because I love singing, and I don't think I'm Great, but I think some songs don't get heard enough if at all, and if no other bleeper will sing 'em then i guess it'll have to be me..
yours defensively, eldergirl. :)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 08:48 PM

john, I think that is a good thing to do, work on a one to one basis with someone you trust, when i was working in a duo with richard grainger we would discuss songs we had written and if we had any thing we were unsure about[tune wise or lyric wise ] we would talk about it

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:22 PM

A key word in this discussion is "unsolicited". I can see how
un-asked for criticism can be hurtful and is probably inappropriate in a singaround, whereas it might be appropriate when reviewing a professional singer.
I do maintain that criticism is essential to improve performance. It struck me when out trio started learning a new song the other day. we play a rough version and record it. we then consider how that might be improved,e.g. get in tune, firm up intro, musical breaks, speed rhythm etc. Then we play and record it again and repeat the process etc. etc. until we reach a point where we are all happy.
I am sure this process is familiar to many here. As a solo singer I guess the thing to do would be to work with someone you trust when working on material, get the feedback and improve it to the point where the likelihood of unsolicited criticism is significantly diminished.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM

As I have said several times and you have chosen to persistently ignored - resident singers were asked not to repeat the same song over a period of three months - I was there enough to know that this was fairly closely followed, so the likelihood of any of them repeating the same song in the space of two weeks is extremely unlikely, as is the ability of a casual visitor to be able to claim - with any degree of accuracy, that they could tell (over that period) that two performances were identical other than in text and tune."
I have no reason to suppose that the person who gave me their opinion of MacColls singing was lying, this person was a stalwart of the revival, and a highly respected singer.
at no point have I said that the person who gave me their opinion[ and Imight remind you their opinion was only a minor criticism] saw this performance at the singers club, it was in fact a gig MacColl was doing, so your comments about what happened at the singers club bear no relevance whatsoever.
Jim, you continue to get over excited and jump to wrong conclusions.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM

"People who are consistently unable to sing in tune are likely to be unaware that this is the case"
Right again.
Telling someone they are singing ok when they aren't leads to a nasty fall when they find out they aren't - as well as inflicting bad singing on audiences.
Take a simple tune that you don't want to sing (we used Johnny Todd) and use that for pracice - tyhen work your way up.
"Please stop trying to see who can throw the last punch and pick up the topic again"
Last punch thrown - thanks for the voice of sanity Vic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:25 AM

People who are consistently unable to sing in tune are likely to be unaware that this is the case, and will continue to do so. In a singaround among friends this might be fine, however, if this person then decides to broaden their horizons and sing in other settings you can be sure someone will tell them. How will they feel then having be reassured by the previous conspiracy of silence regarding their abilities.
Anyone singing in clubs to a wider audience, or singing professionally should expect criticism if the are unable to hold a tune.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:18 AM

Please stop trying to see who can throw the last punch and pick up the topic again.

SRS 

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 10:52 AM

This is the message that started the thread.

A question about protocol and politeness.

Among regulars at a singaround, what do you think are the appropriate circumstances for telling another singer, in a helpful spirit, that his or her singing was flat/wandered off key/gave out on the high notes/etc?

I think my own answer would be that you shouldn't do this at all, unless the singer has started the conversation by being critical of his or her own performance - and even then you should tread carefully unless you know the person very well. I guess I don't think technical perfection at a singaround is important enough to outweigh the nasty surprises & hurt feelings that this could involve.

But is that over-protective? Might some singers benefit from being told they'd been screwing up without realising it? Has unsolicited criticism got a part to play in maintaining singaround standards?

Please stop trying to see who can throw the last punch and pick up the topic again.

SRS

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 10:13 AM

By the way thinking about and planning an interpretation in advance is as essential as essential as learning and rehearsing the tune and text before you get up and sing it.
Interpreting and identifying with the story and the emotions suggested by the unfolding of that story is the best reason in the world for learning a song and identifying with that interpretation is one sure way of keeping it in your repertoire.
If you are talking about technical variation - singers seldom sing songs the same way twice - they develop a repertoire of skills and draw on those in each performance - like a craftsman selects the appropriate tools for a specific task.
The wider the selection of tools and the better you are able to handle them is what makes for a better singer.
As I have said several times and you have chosen to persistently ignored - resident singers were asked not to repeat the same song over a period of three months - I was there enough to know that this was fairly closely followed, so the likelihood of any of them repeating the same song in the space of two weeks is extremely unlikely, as is the ability of a casual visitor to be able to claim - with any degree of accuracy, that they could tell (over that period) that two performances were identical other than in text and tune.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:03 AM

Can we please leave yours or anybody's opinion of MacColl's performance out of this discussion - I had enough experience - mostly pleasant - of hearing him regularly - mostly once a month - for nearly thirty years - time enough to make up my own mind without having to resort to asking the opinion of someone who saw him a couple of times (not forgetting his invisible friend)
I am not the slightest bit interested in your opinion of him as a performer - though I would welcome useful and informed comments on the ideas he pioneered via the Critics Group.
I have to say that your postings are not far removed from a visit from The Jehovah's Witnesses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 07:50 AM

sorry ,i was interuppted by a jehovahs witness at the door.
Idid not get the impression that the performer who saw macColl ,was against planned interpretation, his minor crticism , was that MacColl "in his eyes, and according to his ears" had not changed the performance, as i was saying it is 2 way street, perhaps the critic was having an off night too, it is a possibility.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 07:31 AM

Theatrical was not the term used by me, neither was it the term used by the person who gave a minor criticism of his singing.
what the person said was this, "the first time I heard Ewan sing this ballad, it made the hairs on the back of his neck stand up," the person then said" i saw him a fortnight later and he sang the song in exactly the same way, and i was disappointed".
at no point in the conversation was the term "theatrical" used.
this person then gave their opinion that a song should be sung differently on each occasion, this person clearly thought that Ewan had not done that on these two occasions, the persons only criticism was that the interpretation in their opinion was exactly the same each time,in fact the person gave high praise tho the first rendition.
having said that here is an observation of mine which i think has some relevance,I have noticed that i when have been to see the the same performer twice and been dissapointed on one occasion, i have tried to analyse why.
my analysis has been this.1. it might have been my own mood.2. the performer themselves may not have been in such a good mood for performing
it is expected of professional performers, that they always perform very well, we pay good money too see a high performance , this is an impossible expectation, every performer is human not a machine that can be programmed to turn out excellence on every occasion.
a performer may have had an accident or a row with their partner etcetc before performing thay do their best but they will still be affected.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 04:44 AM

Anybody who ever saw a live performance by Bert Lloyd will have been aware of his habit of 'grinning' while performing - not so much a reflection of his (I'm sure) sunny outlook on life but a deliberately contrived technique to produce a hard tone on some songs, contrary to the somewhat light, airy one he generally used.
The command and use of tones to handle different types of songs and to produce variation in a performance of a number of songs, was one of the major features of the work of the Critics Group.
MacColl also devised a whole scale of work on 'efforts' (delivery) based on Laben's theory of movement, which also helped to give a varied performance - a bit difficult to explain, but very easy to apply once you get the hang of it.   
His theory was that if you were put in a position of singing a number of songs one after the other, and you didn't alter either tone or effort, as so many of us never gave a thought to, the audience would simply stop following what you were doing because of the 'sameness' of the sound you produced - (their "ears would go to sleep").
He argued that people are constantly changing tone, weight, direction... in their speech, depending on the subject and the emotions those subjects evoked - why not in their singing.
Far from this being 'theatrical' as some people have suggested, it is a natural part of how we communicate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:21 AM

There is hope for us all then if it is not necessary to be really good in order to make a living from folk singing.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:12 AM

Iposted the above, because it seeme to be useful, furthermore ity llustrates how wide of the mark the accusations made[re macColl] about me are.
I greatly admired his radio ballads, his song writing and to a slightly lesser extent his singing, and i think his approach to vocal exrcises very good.
I have never approached tony haynes for bookngs, I have pointed out that i choose which clubs i wish to play in, I would not accept a gig from tony haynes, i like to feel comfortable with the company when i play.
I have NEVER said how good I am, I stated facts,that quite a number of clubs have rebooked me several times over the years, [five or six many times], that has nothing to do with supposedly having a high opinion of myself, it means that a reasonable amount of clubs think I give a good and varied evening of songs, these are facts.
    nobody has yet produced any evidence on this thread where i supposedly say that I AM REALLY GOOD, in fact I am critical of myself and always looking to find ways to maintain standards, which is why i find MacColls excersies very good.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:06 AM

WTF?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM

warm up vocal exercises

Good Soldier Schweik         22 Oct 10 - 08:08 AM
Genie         22 Oct 10 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll         22 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM
Good Soldier Schweik         23 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM
Crowhugger         23 Oct 10 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Doxy         24 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM
My guru always said         24 Oct 10 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Desi C         25 Oct 10 - 06:34 AM
Good Soldier Schweik         25 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM
Crowhugger         25 Oct 10 - 09:55 AM
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Subject: warm up vocal exercises
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:08 AM

anyone got any they are happy to share/anyone know the exercises used by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger?

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Subject: E MacColl/P Seeger warm up vocal exercises
From: Genie - PM
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:41 PM

Suggestion:
If the point is to find the MacColl/P Seeger exercises, why not make the thread title more specific?

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM

Hi Cap'n
Yes, I have examples of MacColl's exercise programme.
They fell into several parts.
1.   Four basic vowel-type sounds
The objective was to produce them in a pure, open, relaxed and unrestricted tone in order to work out where your 'natural' voice was being produced in order to have control over it.
2. A number of singing exercises to handle different aspects of the voice. They consisted of:
Two short pieces of Wagner ('Tis Ended' and 'By Evil Craft') to help with the handling unfamiliar (small and large) intervals and unusual tunes accurately.
One short piece of Gilbert and Sullivan (Rising Early in the Morning; from The Gondoliers; but similar G&S will do) for precise articulation while singing at speed.
One piece of Mouth Music (Tail Toddle - 2 choruses and one verse sung in one breath) for speed and articulation also breath control (sometimes Rocky Road To Dublin was substituted - one chorus and one refrain sung in one breath).
These can be memorised in a week, once learned, never forgotten, still can do most of them after forty years, though breath control is not as good as it was (takes at least 2 breaths for Tail Toddle and Rocky Road nowadays)
3. Series of relaxation excercises (neck, shoulders arms, back, legs) to help control tension (starts off as full exercise, but once mastered, full exercise is seldom needed and tension can be contolled wherever it appears) Probably the most useful work I was ever given; can help with activities other than singing.
All the exercises came with full explanation of their purpose and uses, along with a breakdown of the theory of their necessity.
They might sound complicated, but they come automatically once learned.
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

thanks, Jim.

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: Crowhugger - PM
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 02:40 PM

The chorus in which I sing sounds best when we consistently use Elaine Overholt's CD of warm-ups. Her DVD shows & explains the exercises, and the CD is just the exercises which don't give best results without the explanations. I feel it's worth the price for those who want to put in a little time each day toward becoming more comfortable inside their voice. Don't be put off by the decidedly un-folky web site--I give her credit for finding a way to earn a reasonable living in music without the lousy hours that come with gigging.

No I don't get a percentage on sales! Her exercises and attitude are among the most helpful I've come across, ideal for both men's and women's voices, and great for developing a full sound over one's full range. In my modest opinion,
:-)

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: GUEST,Doxy - PM
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM

Hi Everyone,
I have a fond memory of Johnny Collins that seems to fit here. We (Trim and I) were with him in Workum having breakfast at the hotel and were talking about warming up and also maintaining voice. Johnny was talking about doing arpegios(is that how you spell it?) and demonstratingme 'me me me me me me............' Joyce said they drive her up the wall. Johnny said he could see her point, it was very selfish and in future he would sing 'you you you you you you you'!
Cheers
Doxy

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: My guru always said - PM
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 05:46 AM

LOL, Doxy & Trim Rig!!!

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: GUEST,Desi C - PM
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:34 AM

I think most singers have their own ways of warming up. Mine are bobbled together from various exercises I've found and use which parts suit me best. Many singers are hard to hear in Folk clubs especially without P.A and when I came back to singing after 25 years away from it I was barely audible. So I devised me own vocal evercises, the basic scales plus breathing and throat exercises to develp the volume. Within 2 weeks I was showing good signs of improvement,now 3 years on I can be heard very well at the back of the room without a P.A

I can highly reccomend a workshop I attended recently by Bella Hardry, she uses a mix of physical and vocal exercises, and I was pleased to see some were similar to the ones I'd developed on my own. Basically if you evercise the voice regularly you'll be a much better singer
Desi C
The Circle Folk Club
Every Wed Night Open Mic
Coseley West Mids UK
WV14 9JH

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM

I use the arpeggio system[ johnny collins mentioned], plus i find playing harmonica helps my breathing.
i think relaxing[or dropping] the lower jaw is supposed to help, certain vowel sounds are supposed to be easier eg ah, whereas ee, can be nasal sounding, is it because we should breathe through the mouth rather than the nose?

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Subject: RE: warm up vocal exercises
From: Crowhugger - PM
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:55 AM

It's because most people say 'ee' with the space inside their mouth flattened to nearly nothing. Try 'ee' this way:
-inside your mouth, open tall all the way back into your throat. Make it into the greatest possible space without lowering your jaw (for me it's on the way to yawning but stopped just before the point of no return).
-your lips, jaw & cheeks do nothing at all, don't go wide like a toaster; they should flop if you say a breathy 'p' sound.
-while gently holding open that space with 'inside muscles' in your mouth/throat, use minimal muscles (no jaw, no cheeks, no lips) to shape the ee sound.

Very different from the way we usually learn to speak, but go ahead, try it! You won't look funny at all with the visible muscles relaxed. Yes, it does take getting used-to. And once you do (it took me 6 months of messing about every day to become fairly automatic) it's fully resonant; you can add as little or as much nasal quality as you like. It makes ee nearly as rich as ah, oh, oo etc.

Well, a picture would be worth a thousand words, wouldn't it?!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM

I have stated on this thread my opinion of Ewan, I said
Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM

MacColls arrogance did not put me off booking him, because they were good performers, which in my opinion should always be the criteria, they gave an excellent night and went and stayed in a hotel.
Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM


incidentally I met MacColl on a number of occasions, on the first occasion i found him to be extremely arrogant and rude, I think he was a fine songwriter, and a good singer, although there are a number of revival singers who I would prefer to listen to, and a number of tradtional singers larner cox, bob lewis, who in my opinion are better.
Jim, how does that destroy or tear down his reputation?so Ihave never said I did not like the mans singing did i?
I remarked that one well known singer[not me] had a small criticism of him as a singer, which does not alter the fact he was a good singer. and in my opinion an excellent songwriter

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM

All I can add is...

What a bunch of self opinionated tossers.

Applies to whoever thinks it is appropriate.

:D tG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:07 PM

"i have never said how good or how experienced i am, please show me the post in this thread where"
You have persistently pointed out our (perceived) inadequacies - you are noted on this forum for self-promoting arrogance (not to your advantage as a professional singer - one contributor here said he wouldn't book you because of that arrogance).
You have used your (perceived) superiority to suggest that you are a good teacher (whatever that means).
It is part of your projected persona.
Before I had ever heard you sing I asked a friend in Cork whether he had heard you and what he thought of your singing - he tactfully replied "He's not as good as he thinks he is", which sums up perfectly my impression of you.
For where you have said it - see above in numerous postings and for a display of you're arrrogance - count how many times you posted "DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING JIM"
You are now attempting to tear down the reputation of one of Britain's finest (and acknowledged as such, even by his enemies) exponents of folk songs, particularly ballads, with invented fairy stories which I know personally could not possibly be true - MacColl nor Peggy ever sang the same song in the same month - it was club policy and they were instigators and avid supporters of that policy.
If you didn't like the man's singing, isn't it time you left him alone - he's been brown bread for over two decades?
There - finished what I have to say to you - if you need any more career advice, please don't hesitate to ask.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:49 PM

as far as I am concerned if i make a conscious effort it is done on the spur of the moment, as i am singing, it is not premeditated.it is done in situ
I think MacColls attitude was more intellectual, more planned and premeditated.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:31 PM

Seriously. As a philosophical point, yes each performance will be different, however, the difference will be relatively small unless the singer makes a conscious decision to alter the approach to the song.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:06 PM

Hey man too loud!
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:57 PM

the point of practising is to familarise yourself with the song,so that you can sing it effortlessly, and be confident.
Then you can let the song flow SPONTANEOUSLY, a good actor will do the same, AND WILL PRODUCE A DIFFERENT PERFORMANCE EACH TIME.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:49 PM

john, you dont decide it just happens

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:36 PM

GSS, if you want to stop the personal attacks upon yourself, then you have to stop doing the same thing to other people. Tit for tat.

SRS

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:21 PM

" john charles, why would he change? if you dont know the answer to that   here is the answer,it should be different every perfomance should be different. "
By only quoting part of what I have said you distort its meaning.
Spending time to hone the performance and then deciding that you must sing it differently each time seems a rather odd way of going about the process, why bother practicing.
You seem happy to put everyone else, right but cry foul when anyone contradicts you or refers to your singing. As a professional surely you might expect your performances to be reviewed more critically than many of us who pursue our art for love not money.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:22 PM

"His point was that MacColl interpeted the ballad in EXACTLY the same way, it was well rehearsed but lacked any spontaneity"
Simply not the case.
I listened to MacColl From 1962 - he constantly re-worked his songs - not from week-to-week (as your example appears to imply necessary), but until the songs began to get stale - as all repeated songs eventually do.
It was part of the work we did, breathing new life into older items of our repertoire.
When the songs ceased to work entirely he replaced them with other versions.
He actually wrote an article on the subject in one of the early folk magazines using The Bonnie Earl O' Moray as his example - have it archived somewhere.
One of the great flaws in this particular 'Myth' is that one of the requests made of all Singers Club residents (I know this to have been re-iterated regularly as I was a member of the audience committee who helped to run the club) was that residents were requested not to repeat songs over a period of three months so the audiences were constantly being presented with new material - Ewan and Peggy were sticklers at adhering to this in their own performances.
The only exceptions to this practice were the newly composed political pieces on current subjects (miners, Viet Nam, CND etc...)
I don't know where your anonymous quote comes from but it seems to have about the same veracity as the one about the singer stopped mid-song for singing in an American accent.
I really wasn't going to bother doing this but - as you have spent so much time telling us how good and experienced a singer you are, and as you are joining the mob who are still corpse-kicking someone who is unable to defend himself and his ideas because he snuffed it over twenty years ago....
I have just made a point of re-listening to some of your own material on U-tube
I find you to be a proficient singer, no major problems musically, either in handling song tunes or accompaniment - certainly not offensive in any way, but, to my ear, rather uninteresting; the reason being that you treat all the songs I listened to so similarly that it was difficult to distinguish between them - same dynamic, same weight, same tonal delivery... all rather samey, which is what you (via your anonymous informant) seems to be what you are accusing my dead frend and benefactor of.
As you have been as generous as you have been in putting me in my place, I am sure you will take my advice in the spirit is offered - as a desire to help.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Taconicus
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:11 PM

Personally, the idea I find most unwelcome in criticism of folk music is that there is a particular way a song "should be sung." When it comes to folk music (and analogously, most art), there is only "I like it that way" and "I don't prefer it that way" – it's all subjective. Similarly, there are those who like a song sung differently each time, and others who quite prefer it be sung exactly the way they're used to it. It's a matter of preference, nothing more.

Going back to the original question, I agree with those who said that criticism should be given only when asked, and then only in private, and in a constructive way. And if, in private, you want to make a suggestion to a singer about how to make his singing or playing better, it's always possible to talk about techniques without implying that there was anything wrong with his performance.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps he had worked very hard on his interpretation, and having got it where he wanted, why would he change.
If a critic is not prepared to put his/her name to criticism they would be better staying silent.
John

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:50 AM

"As far as I can see this dominance of the individual is one of the greatest dangers to singing at the present time – I sometimes cringe when I hear who has set themselves up as a 'singing teacher'."
perhaps you could explain what this remark means, and the necessity of making it.
One criticsm I have heard of MacColls singing, made to me by a highly respected and well known singer who wished to remain anonymous, was this.
These were THAT SINGERS words," I went to see Ewan at a club and he sang a ballad that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, however 2 weeks later, I had the opportunity to see him again, howver this time i was disappointed because his interpretation was EXACTLY THE SAME"
His point was that MacColl interpeted the ballad in EXACTLY the same way, it was well rehearsed but lacked any spontaneity.
That singers point was that the song should be sung differently every time, and the fact that MacColl repeated it in exactly the same way was a criticism, and in my opinion a valid criticism.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:10 AM

Found this response I gave to somebody way back - more or less sums up the "Criticism" side of the Critics Group.
Jim Carroll

Thanks for your response; the method I described seems to be the general one at present. The classes I attended (out of curiosity more than anything else) were given by ******   ****** ****** ****** I have to say I got nothing from any of them and in ****** class (which was probably the best of them) we had the added obstacle of singing in a language most of us did not understand (Irish).
As singing classes seem to be growing in popularity, I thought it worth raising the question of how they are conducted.
How did MacColl teach? - in a word, he didn't. When he was approached to take classes in the early sixties he gave it some thought - and turned down the idea. Instead, he adopted a technique which had been used in Theatre Workshop and other theatre companies; that of group participation.
A singer would be asked to choose a number of songs (anything from say three to half-a-dozen) and present them as if they were performing in front of an audience (including introductions, if appropriate). Often the type of audience was specified (regular club attenders, aficionados, totally unfamiliar with traditional song etc). The only criterion was that the songs should be contrasting (in tone speed, pitch, dynamic - whatever).
At the end of the performance there would be a discussion, the starting point being whether the audience was moved or convinced by the singing.
A general discussion would then take place, usually opening with the technical aspects, then touching on the singer's analysis of the song. It was expected that any discussion of the performance was positive, and that the good points of the singing were given as much attention as the weaknesses.
More often than not some sort of a consensus was reached and suggestions would be made as to how the singing could be improved. The aim was that these suggestions were limited to the main problems and did not give a singer too much to be handled in one sitting. Some practical work would be tried on some of the suggestions made
MacColl would usually take no part in this discussion, except to make sure that any points and questions raised in the discussion were clear to everybody. At the end of the evening he would summarise, not necessarily on the specific nights work, but often on the general aspects of singing and songs that may have been relevant to what had been discussed.
MacColl wrote very little on his ideas on singing, so the recordings of these 'soliloquy's' are the only records of his approach (many/most were recorded and are housed at Birmingham Central Library). To say that they were 'inspiring' would be to grossly understate; you often left these sessions walking a few feet above pavement level. They were superb and I still get a buzz from listening to them (we have a full set of 200 odd tapes of them here).
MacColl's main contribution to the work of the Critics group was in the exercises he devised aimed at technical aspects of singing; voice exercises aimed at extending range and producing tones for different types of song; relaxation routines based around breath control etc. Particularly important were his ideas on 'efforts' in singing, based largely around work he had adapted from Laban's theories of movement as applied to dance (his ex wife, Jean Newlove, was a Laban movement teacher).
He also did some work to assist singers to relate to and get into the songs, based on Stanislavski's theatre 'method'.
The method of work adopted was demanding; on the one hand a singer had to be prepared to sit through an analysis (albeit friendly) of their performance, but once you accepted this, it became easy and one of the problems was that a group of more than a dozen plus could not meet the demand of the people who wished to be worked on. These 'group criticism' sessions were only part of the Group's work and certainly did not happen more than once a month, if that.
There was no obligation whatever on the part of the singer, to take up the suggestions made during these sessions, but it was expected that singers should go away and work on their singing and maybe bring one or two of the songs back some time later to see how/if any progress was being made.
The plus side of working like this was that once you sang at one these sessions, you could sing anywhere – they were great for getting rid of inhibitions. One great advantage was that, because the whole group was involved, not just the singer, everybody took something away from the session and the abilities of the group members developed as a whole.
The work done was long term and ongoing; The Critics Group met weekly for nearly ten years and while there were people who joined and left after a time (Gordon McCulloch, Luke Kelly and others for instance) there was a permanent core of singers who were in at the beginning and stayed to the end.
There were problems with the methods of work adopted, but by and large, the pluses far outweigh the minuses, and it worked - sometimes spectacularly.
The whole approach was based on the idea that anybody who got up to sing publicly was bound to generate opinions and criticisms of their singing, so anybody wishing to improve might as well turn those opinions and criticisms to their advantage by listening to them and seeing if they were of valid and of any help.
It more or less guaranteed that nobody involved was able to impose their style/idiosyncrasies, mannerisms on others. This said, MacColl's charisma, as a singer and as an individual could dominate the proceedings, but as long as you went in with your own agenda, you took away what you needed and rejected the dross. As far as I can see this dominance of the individual is one of the greatest dangers to singing at the present time – I sometimes cringe when I hear who has set themselves up as a 'singing teacher'.
It has always struck me as odd that the singing of traditional songs is the only creative pursuit where the exponents consider themselves above criticism.
Sorry this has been so long-winded; but you did ask, and I am trying to sum up ten years of work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

In Ireland most of the singers clubs that I have been booked at are held in seperate club rooms, all the people that attend go there specifically to listen to songs, in my opinion this is the best setting for singing.
most instrumental sessions in pubs are treated by audience as places to go and chat and half listen,this is not so soul destroying for the performers[most instrumental sessions are groups of six or more] as it is for the booked song bands playing with amplification in pubs, where it is treated as background music.
I have no great desire to play in pubs in england or ireland, as a song performer where the folk club is not in a seperate room,NEW YEARS EVE IS IN MY EXPERIENCE A DEFINITE NO NON, there are of course a few exceptions.
in my opinion the best place for singers clubs is in a seperate room.
The best one i know where i have been booked regularly,is in The Spailpin Fanach in Cork City.
I live in Ireland, I have no wish to play in badly run events held in pubs where people are making a lot of noise, if that makes me arrogant, so be it, that is my choice i choose to play where i like and with people whom i like, that is why i enjoy doing it.
if i had to play in crap venues with crap people, I wouldnt bother, doing that is imo the way   to lose a love of the music, the music means more to me than that, its good music that should be treated with love ,not ignored or ridiculed or used as a background for a drunken brawl.
In the not too distant future I will be playing at one of my favourite folk clubs run by The Wilson Family in Billingham, I would rather play there with excellent singers and people with a good knowledge of the music.
I choose where I want to sing, I dont need to sing in any old badly run joint.