BS: Defeat Bush and then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:18 AM

Why stop there? Here are GUEST's greatest hits, his rabid ravings and obnoxious accusations from this thread alone...

driven by fear and hatred…[using] the tactic of the moronic Republican militarists…to brainwash the American public…don't have a clue as to how the US government actually works…racist bit of crap…that is just silly ...You are just making such ridiculous claims to assuage your guilty conscience for selling your soul out …Throw your principles and values out the window every four years, just so you can make a politically expedient, socially acceptable easy vote…Just like it was easy for Germans to vote for Hitler…People as…blind and lazy as you…your pathetic claims…duplicitous, hypocritical mindset … easy sleazy…hypocrites…I refuse to remain silent about your phoniness and hypocrisy…you are phonies and hypocrites…naked emperor's most loyal sycophant …pathetic attempts …your lack internal consistency in your thinking…there is a deep disconnect in your personalities…rationalizers and justifiers…If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination…You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate…over the top hysterical claim…acting like you've had a lobotomy…childish…stupid and gullible…shut your donkey braying trap up…stop you from stalking…I'm glad I don't actually ever have to sit in a room with you…I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small…desperate people like you… scary people like you… I don't like holding conversations…

So there!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:15 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,other guest
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

Let's see who is obnoxious:

GUEST: No, it's easy to cover your eyes and your ears and vote for Kerry. Just like it was easy for Germans to vote for Hitler.

GUEST: You are phonies and hypocrites

GUEST: If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination...

GUEST: You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

GUEST: Apparently, I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small.

and my favorite

GUEST: It's pretty hard to defend your obnoxious behavior towards me.

Ha, ha, that's a goodun GUEST. You keep spewing your frothy bile on everyone and then acuse ttr and nurd of being obnoxious. I'm glad you decided to clam up. You're so full of crap your eyeballs stink.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM

Aspersions on the size of my penis? A new low for GUEST. Ah well, projection, as Freud would point out, can lead to some powerful misconceptions.

I also notice that you broke your own disingenuous little birthday vow in the same post in which you made it. That must be some kind of record, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:35 PM

"Kerry is definitely to the left of even the moderate Republicans."

And that is how I spell R-E-L-I-E-F I'll tell you.

"Those who argue that the pendulum must swing even further to the "right" before truly leftist ideas (like those of Nader) will have a chance to take hold do not realize how much may be irretrievably lost before that happens.."

It isn't about just that. It is about sticking by the principles one espouses, instead of just paying lip service to them every four years, while we vote for the lesser of two evils that are destroying the American standard of living, grossly abusing our power in relation to the rest of the world, carrying on an illegal and immoral war in our names.

How do you square all that with voting for Kerry, especially in light of Abu Ghraib, the decimation of Iraqi civilians and their cities to "destroy the enemy", Genie? John Kerry is going to continue this war. He has no exit strategy, anymore than the Bush administration does. Both camps are hellbent on pursuing this "bomb the Iraqis back to the stone age" policy.

Maybe you are willing to vote for a candidate who is supporting that policy, but I'm not. I refuse to vote for a pro-Iraq war candidate. I refuse to vote for a pro-Patriot Act candidate. I refuse to vote for a pro-free trader candidate. I refuse to vote for a candidate which views international human rights with such contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

Anyone who believes Nader's 2000 contention that there's no difference between the Rebpublicans and Democrats has only to look back over the last 3 1/2 years to see the error of that statement.

Had Al Gore been installed (rightly) as the 43rd President, do you really think his administration would have:
a. appointed theocratically-oriented right-wing extremist Federal judges at every opportunity?
b. gutted the Clean Air Act and virtually all other environmental protection laws
c. appointed an Attorney General with as little regard for the Bill Of Rights as John Ashcroft
d. pre-emptively invaded Iraq without a strong international coalition, without clear and compelling reason to do so or an invitation from the Iraqi citizenry
e. been hell-bent on "privatizing" everything from Social Security to the educational system
f. awarded no-bid contracts to Halliburton for work in Iraq without accountability for the funds
g. attempted to distract the voting public from economic, security, and social justice issues by backing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage
h. disregarded or marginalized what the the commissions and agencies under the Clinton administration had learned and had to say about international terrorism (e.g., the Hart-Rudman commission)
i. pushed to permanently do away with the inheritance tax, no matter how huge the estate
j. proposed tax cuts that primarily benefit the extremely wealthy at the expense of the middle class and the poor
or
k. squandered a huge surplus and run up an unprecedented deficit?

No, centrist Democrats and centrist Republicans are not that far apart on most issues. But the Bush administration is not truly conservative, much less centrist; they are not strict constructionists of the Constitution, nor are they fiscally conservative. And on some issues, Kerry is definitely to the left of even the moderate Republicans.

Those who argue that the pendulum must swing even further to the "right" before truly leftist ideas (like those of Nader) will have a chance to take hold do not realize how much may be irretrievably lost before that happens, if we to go all Hegelian at this point instead of opting for the "lesser of two evils" -- which, IMO, is A LOT LESS evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:29 PM

There will have to be a great deal of work to put this country back together.
Alliances that have been breached will have to be restored. A legitimate time-table for bringing American troops home will have to be established.
The World Court and the UN will have to be restored to a level of respect and authority undone by Bush. The Republican congress will have to be challenged and the veto power of the pen in the Exec. Branch will be active.
Care will have to be taken so that the Right-wing cabal that got Clinton will not be able to bring Kerry down. Health Care and Education will have to be legitimately addressed and at least the Repubs in congress checked in their willful quest to destroy Social Security, Head Start and other useful government programs. Taxes will have to be faced realistically, not ideologically, and many of the cuts will have to be eliminated if we are as a country to maintain a fairly high standard of living for all of it's citizens.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer - PM
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Bush = Violence = Porn = WASPMale sado worship = Ad Hominem avoidance

.............metaphorically speaking, of course...

Vote for Kerry, and things will finally start to get better. Kerry's only problem here is that he isn't stimulated by 'low ball' entendre, and the neo-cons can't stop kicking the sand around the sandbox long enough to let anyone start thinking straight again.

Guest is 'acting like' a neo-con... again...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM

1) Someone to put together an improved international coalition to deal with Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, Sudan. The UN isn't exactly a bastion of morality or effectiveness, but we have to make it better, and we have alternatives. Clinton made excellent use of NATO in Yugoslavia.

2) Someone to fix the tremendous unbalance in US economy by a spendthrift President and Republican dominated Congress that things we have nothing but money to throw at outmoded and useless big defense projects.

3) A less dogmatic choice for the next set of Supreme Court justices.

4) A more positive and informed approach to scientific research, government sponsorship, and what science is all about.

5) A more hands-off approach to a woman's right to choose. Greater government sponsorship for world-wide family planning.

6) Government officials with better senses of (intentional) humor and a bit more self deprecation.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:37 PM

OK Nerd. You win. I'm wrong. Bye bye now.

But just so you know. Today is my birthday. For my birthday, I am giving myself a present. I've decided not to respond to you, ttr, et al any more. I know it won't stop you from stalking the political threads, looking for any opening to attack whatever I say. Because that is obviously the way you think you can best support Kerry, I guess. Though I'm really beginning to wonder if it isn't just that you enjoy being annoying. I'm glad I don't actually ever have to sit in a room with you, because if you take the politics out of the equation here, it's pretty hard to defend your obnoxious behavior towards me. Apparently, I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small, or something, because your obsession with me is starting to look a lot like Big Mick's stalking of me.

But you go for it, dude. Whatever floats yer boat and rings yer chimes. But I'm not responding anymore, because I know the lower Kerry sinks in the polls and closer we get to the elections, the more desperate people like you get. I don't like holding conversations with scary people like you, so I'm just going to leave you be.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

Okay, GUEST, now we can talk.

You are a partisan representative of what you call "the progressive third party movement," which sounds suspiciously like a bunch of progressives not even organized enough to pick a single party in which to be progressive. Will this movement change the face of American politics? Perhaps, but not in 2004.

You see voting for Kerry as "not helping" this movement.

That's fine. More power to you.

Now on this forum, most leftists are NOT partisan members of "the progressive third party movement." We would like to see this country move to the left. That is our goal. We believe voting for Kerry will be instrumental in doing that.

You accuse US of being sycophantic followers of a particular leader. We are not. I don't love Kerry all that much, truth be told. But I have goals.

I recognize that you also have a goal. But YOU are the one caught up in "party politics" because YOUR goal is the one defined by parties. If the Republican Party moved to the left and the Democrats to the right, I'd probably be a Republican. I have no loyalty to a "party" per se. I have a loyalty to my goals, many of which in 2004 are achievable via a party. None of them are achievable by voting for Cobb.

Now, when you start to say things like:

I'm not saying voting for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm saying a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush, and a vote for either, is like blindfolding yourself in the same way the Germans did when they voted for Hitler.

You reveal the vacuity of your own position and your OWN tendency to twist words. "I'm not saying voting for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm just saying that it's like voting for Hitler in this particular way!"

That dog won't hunt, GUEST! YOU let that particular genii out of the bottle. YOU invoked Hitler and accused of of being just like the people who voted for Hitler. That is, in political arguments, a "race to the bottom."

You also said:

"You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

Best of luck bickering over the flatware you will eat it with."

Where I come from, that looks remarkably like "You're voting Democrat? eat shit, asshole."

My apologies if I misinterpreted it, but deep down I think you know I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:01 PM

You know Nerd, your over the top hysterical claim that I accused you of voting for Hitler is just so bloody absurd. Just like the accusation that I told you to eat shit.

And the game you keep playing, trying to "prove" I twist peoples' words to suit my own agenda is as childish as claiming I'm raving. People aren't as stupid and gullible as you presume they are, Nerd.

Now, to answer your oh so clever questions (as if answering them will shut your donkey braying trap up, but we can all hope)to me:

"why not vote for Kerry AND support progressive candidates for congress and other offices?

Because Kerry doesn't support the progressive agenda that progressive candidates support. He is proposing an agenda that is frighteningly similar to Bush's agenda. As any progressive will tell you, I would be throwing my vote away by voting for Kerry, because a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush's agenda.

"Why not mobilize for progressive causes AND vote for Kerry?"

Because that will aid the Democratic party, and play right into their strategy to defeat the progressive third party movement in this country. Why should I vote for a man who is leading the party that is actively working to destroy everything I believe in?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:50 PM

You're not raving GUEST.

You accused us of voting for Hitler, and then told us to eat heaps of shit while arguing over flatware.

But you're perfectly composed and collected.

You STILL have not answered the simples of my questions: why not vote for Kerry AND support progressive candidates for congress and other offices? Why not mobilize for progressive causes AND vote for Kerry?

Why not GUEST?

You don't have much to say on this point. But you certainly are ENTERTAINING when you're raving, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM

If you don't like serious political discussions sorefingers, then why do you feel compelled to rudely interrupt one?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:53 PM

Ok ohhhh kayyy all ye trolls and wannabe Guitar pickers!

Having knocked the fun out of Mudcatting and sent all the folk musician characters elsewhere why do you think any of us folkies still come here?

Not to read your shit and that's a fact. How about subtle hypnotic bad grammar to make you into Concertina zombies, or croaking Seashanty wannabes, or squaking Extremely Contrary Uilleann Pipers or Screeching Fiddle Contortionists.

Did I say Melodianists or Mandolinsturbators?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

No, I'm not raving ttr. I'm speaking the truth as I see it, and as it relates to you personally. So of course you are going to try and paint me as crazy. That makes you feel safe, doesn't it?

If the problem is with me, then you don't have to examine your thinking about any of this, do you? You can just continue to blindly vote Democratic, no matter how bad the candidate actually is, and this particular candidate is REALLY bad, possibly even worse than Clinton was.

But hey, if acting like you've had a lobotomy works for you to keep voting Democrat, good luck with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

...Or maybe you're just raving, Guest...

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,President Bush
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM

Or maybe I am really Hitler, and I'm just here at Mudcat campaigning for Bush.

Or maybe I'm Tom DeLay.

You know guys, these sorts of pathetic attempts to paint Nader and Cobb voters as nasty Republican because they aren't voting for your man, will eventually blow up in your faces, the same way that Kerry's attempt to paint himself as the quintessential American hero warrior blew up in his.

The problem is your lack internal consistency in your thinking, in order to justify (to yourselves) your decision to vote the most politically expedient way you can imagine.

Which just shows there is a deep disconnect in your personalities about who you say you are, and what you truly are based upon your actions.

The Kerry camp is full of rationalizers and justifiers who are casting their votes for the lesser of two evils, just like they always have.

If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination, if you truly had hope, if you truly believed in the best things in the world rather than railing against the worst of it, you wouldn't be able to cast a vote for a Republican or a Democrat for the remainder of your days on earth.

But that isn't you guys. You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

Best of luck bickering over the flatware you will eat it with.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

No, GUEST,

You ARE the naked emperor in this debate. After all, I've already said that we need to BOTH vote for Kerry AND try to get more progressive people into Congress, but you persist in claiming that all Kerry supporters say "VOTE FOR KERRY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE JUST FINE." I DON'T say that! None of us say that!

I have pointed out numerous ways in which Kerry will be better than Bush, you have ignored them.

I have pointed out that you have ignored them, and invited you to respond. You have ignored that too.

Then you started foaming at the mouth and invoking Hitler. Good Job, GUEST! That's the way to establish credibility in a debate. Accuse your opponents of voting for Hitler!

As for this:

"You are phonies and hypocrites. Not because I say so, but because YOU have said so, and we have the forum archive to prove it."

It looks like GUEST is now accusing us of...























Flip-Flopping!

Are you SURE you aren't President Bush, GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:04 PM

And you win second place as most loyal Kerry sycophant, ttr. Not that far behind Nerd, actually.

Keep up the good work with your "guilt by association" tactics. I'm sure it will convince the choir of the rightness of your position and theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Bush = Violence = Porn = WASPMale sado worship = Ad Hominem avoidance

.............metaphorically speaking, of course...

Vote for Kerry, and things will finally start to get better. Kerry's only problem here is that he isn't stimulated by 'low ball' entendre, and the neo-cons can't stop kicking the sand around the sandbox long enough to let anyone start thinking straight again.

Guest is 'acting like' a neo-con... again...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM

Nerd, you do win the prize this year for being the naked emperor's most loyal sycophant.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:48 PM

Jerk it, boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:44 PM

I'm going to say the same thing here I said in another thread today:

Voting for Kerry is easy sleazy way to vote this year without any conscious thought, just like Republicans do.

Voting for Kerry is the easiest way to vote this year of all, isn't it? Easy as in "I, like DougR, don't even have to seriously look at the candidate choices, I can just do the easy thing and vote against Bush."

Choosing to vote for Nader or Cobb takes a bit more than that. An examination of ALL the candidates positions, but ESPECIALLY Kerry's. Why Kerry's in particular? Because Nader and Cobb voters would like to see Bush gone too. But we also understand that if there is precious little difference between Bush and Kerry on the biggest issues, like war, trade, human rights globally and civil rights in the US, the Patriot Act, etc, voting for Kerry would truly be throwing away our vote.

It is wrong to vote for Kerry just because that is the easy, convenient, politically expedient, more socially acceptable thing to do. And that is what the "Anybody But Bush" lesser of two evil Kerry voters are doing.

I've been here long enough to know which ones of you claimed to be SO opposed to the Iraq war before the Democratic primaries, and came out of the Democratic primaries as cheerleaders for Kerry's "stay the course" Iraq, Afghanistan, and war on terrorism policy.

I remember which ones of you Kerry supporters ranted and railed against the Patriot Act before the Democratic primaries, and now barely mention it or give it a second thought, because that would actually be inconsistent with your decision to take the easy way out this year (again) and vote for a candidate who is against everything you said you stood for less than a year ago.

I am fully aware of which ones of you are hypocrites, and will engage in the cyber-equivalent of tarring and feathering anyone who mentions your hypocrisy, and the inconvenient evidence the Mudcat archive has against you.

But Kerrymen, I refuse to remain silent about your phoniness and hypocrisy, or sugar coat it to make it easier for you to swallow. You are phonies and hypocrites. Not because I say so, but because YOU have said so, and we have the forum archive to prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM

I thought so, GUEST. Jerk that knee, baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM

No I'm NOT saying that a vote for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm saying a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush, and a vote for either, is like blindfolding yourself in the same way the Germans did when they voted for Hitler.

Let us not pretend here, Amos. People as reasonable, thoughtful, kind, blind and lazy as you voted for Hitler.

Or are you going to try and suggest that the minions who voted for Hitler were, in fact, just little Hitler clones?

I don't think so.

Kerry is an authoritarian wolf in nobless oblige, little lambie clothes.

The fact that you and the other Kerry apologists here refuse to accept Kerry's actual stated positions (like being pro-war, pro-NAFTA, pro-Patriot Act) despite your pathetic claims to the contrary, doesn't fool everyone. Just most everyone.

You all keep claiming that Kerry supports war just a little bit less than Bush. Supports NAFTA just a little bit less than Bush. Supports the Patriot Act just a little bit less than Bush.

In this sort of duplicitous, hypocritical mindset, you get to VOTE FOR THE LITTLE BIT LESSER EVIL. You tell yourselves VOTE FOR KERRY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE JUST FINE.

Not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM

It's real simple. If you like what Bush has done and seems likely to do, vote for him. Otherwise, vote for Kerry. Either way, stop wasting time--I'm going to a folk festival now.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:46 AM

Troll food! lol

I think it doesen't matter who's in the WH because we are at war with Islam. For those who don't share that assesment you should read what they say in Pakistan, in Indonesia, in the rest of Islam about us.

But Kerry is no better than Bush when it comes to perks of the job - and here I must express my disgust with the 'tar heel' person alledging that Mrs Kerry is on the make here. How exactly do you think she COULD do that?

So I think G W Bush is going to win by a large majority, since Kerry is so busy helping the Republicans by windbagging everywhere he goes!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:25 AM

! I don't understand how you can survey the erosion of civil rights, personal freedoms and the expansion of authoritarian controls under Bush and dare to imply that a vote for Kerry is comparable to a vote for Hitler. In fact, I would have to say that such a proposition, unless you can explain it rationally, is pretty close to rabid, despite all the loaded and colorful language it is propped up with. I understand you are frustrated by that's no grounds for swinging wildly like that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:46 AM

Prove it Amos. Oh wait, you can't. You are just making such ridiculous claims to assuage your guilty conscience for selling your soul out to vote for Kerry, like all the rest of the Kerry apologists around here.

Throw your principles and values out the window every four years, just so you can make a politically expedient, socially acceptable easy vote for the lesser of two evil candidates on "your side". You wouldn't want to trouble your conscience with the facts anymore than DougR does, right?

Vote for Kerry, because it's easy. Vote for Kerry, because you don't have to think to do it. Vote for Kerry, because you don't even need to find out where he stands on the issues, like perpetual war, like the Bush pre-emptive first strike doctrine, which Kerry also supports.

No, it's easy to cover your eyes and your ears and vote for Kerry. Just like it was easy for Germans to vote for Hitler.

Vote for the authoritarian candidates. They are what's for dinner in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:57 AM

He will stop them a damn sight sooner than Bush would have.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

Kerry will not stop the bombings in Iraq or Afghanistan. That sounds like more of the same to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:48 AM

A President has more than the power to persuade; through the use of the armed forces he has the power to kill. Make no mistake about it, our revered Resident has elected to exercise that power against others regardless of their degree and kind of guilt. HE has elected to use it knowing it would disrupt or destroy the lives of the innocent.

When you do that in civilian life they charge you with crimes such as murder and assault.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

So, courageous "Guest" (Ghost)---you think it's just fine for the house to burn down. Too bad about the people inside.   You and Lenin--to make an omlet you have to break some eggs, right?   (pick your metaphor). The country ( and by extension the world) hasn't suffered long enough to be worthy of your wisdom. Do us a favor and go back to your Civics 101 text.

Obviously, as Neustadt said, the president's main power is the power to persuade. Some do it better than others. Clinton was superb. And neither you nor anybody else can predict what Kerry as president will do. As you in your infinite wisdom should know, what somebody says or doesn't say on the campaign trail is no indication of what they will do as president.

The only thing that is reasonably clear is that if Bush gets in again, we can expect more of the same. If that doesn't bother you that says all we need to know about you. And the only way to get him out is to vote for Kerry. I'm dreadfully sorry the country has not lived up to your standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM

Should this unlikely scenario come to pass, I would suggest we all invest in bomb shelters, quit flying commercially, never enter a Wal-Mart or shopping center, and stock up on food and water.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:25 PM

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:02 PM

Electing Kerry will not restore the balance of power. Truly, no offense intended, but that is just silly. The Democratic and Republican party leaderships have been equally corrupted by big money. The system isn't salvageable, as the McCain-Feingold Act proved all too well.

The problem of an imbalance of power between the legislative and executive branches is not one that can be fixed by any president or presidential candidate. They are already wholly corrupted when they reach that level of power. The presidency is corrupted. People need to just get the email on that one.

The citizenry can't take back the government, simply by believing that their guy ain't been bought, and that voting for their Democrat or their Republican will fix the imbalance. Every viable presidential candidate has bought and paid their way into the conventions, and into the Oval Office if they win. Citizen Kerry is no exception, he is the epitome of the rule. The US presidency is a rich white man's game.

The legislative branch is an entirely different story, however. Viable third parties can be built at the local and national levels that can successfully elect representatives and senators to Congress by running effective and savvy grassroots campaigns. They can then challenge the executive branch, and restore the legitimate constitutional powers of the legislative branch that has been completely corrupted by the two party, winner-take-all system.

I believe Clinton desperately tried to be a uniter, but the Republicans were and still are not interested in bipartisanship. In a winner take all system driven by big money interests, it is nigh on impossible to have bipartisanship at any level of government. The problem isn't just at the national level, but at the state and local levels in far too many states.

Kerry will not only be less effective, you need to understand that the Kerry agenda does not include what the Anybody But Bush camp seems to think it includes, like bringing the troops home, overturning the Patriot Act, reversing the 2 1/2 decade long assault on New Deal social services, reforming the tax code to start collecting a fair share from the wealthy, overturning the regressive trade laws that are destroying the planet, the standard of living in the US, exploiting the third world, exacerbating human rights catastrophes, and propping up nasty oligarchs and dictators all over the globe.

Wishful thinking and voting won't make any of that so. We have to fight, and not just at the ballot box. These problems the Anybody But Bush camp keeps attributing to Bush and the Republicans, but the Kerry and the Democrats, who are just as complicit, can't be solved at the ballot box.

Kerry's administration could be pure as the driven snow, open and transparent, the epitome of the very best of nobless oblige, and it won't matter one iota, because the corruption at that level is everywhere. They can't root it out without Congress. No president, including John Kerry will willingly give up the imperial powers of the presidency because it is the right thing to do. Those powers will have to be forcibly taken away, by the legislative branch using the judicial branch to check the powers of the executive branch. It will be messy, bloody, hand to hand combat.

Which brings me back to the REAL solutions I keep talking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

See, this is why you annoy a lot of us, GUEST. In your opening post, you say

"I'm really curious to hear what people...think will resolved or fixed by John Kerry."

But you're not curious. You don't give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks unless they agree with you. You ignore every single thing we point out. You ignored all of my points about the way the government operates with a dismissive "I'm not being simplistic at all."

But you are being simplistic. You're pretending that our government operates as a civics textbook. It doesn't.

I described how the president applies pressure to get policies enacted by congress. You ignored it. I mentioned several things Kerry will do better than Bush. You ignored that too.

Anything we say, you answer "Kerry's not the answer. Something else is the answer."

That's fine. We still have to vote for somebody for president. I'm voting for Kerry.

You also made a very interesting logical error showing that your thinking is extremely muddled.

(1) You pointed out that since Nixon's administration, the legislature has lost power while the executive has gained power.   The exact quote:
"The executive branch has amassed way too much power and influence (largely thanks to the overthrow of the constitution by big money interests), and the legislative branch has surrendered way too much power to the executive branch."

(2) Yet both before and after this statement, you say that the President is powerless to enact real change, which only comes from Congress.

You use both of these mutually exclusive propositions to argue for the same conclusion: we should ignore the presidential race because our only hope is to elect better people to Congress.

But if Congress is now drained of its power, how exactly will that help?

Here's my proposition: wouldn't it be better to elect as President someone more progressive than Bush, who respects Congress, being a member of it, while AT THE SAME TIME working to elect progressive members to Congress?

Could you handle that "both...and" proposition in place of your "either...or" proposition, GUEST?

Or will you jerk your knee yet again, crying "Kerry's not the answer!"

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Genie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM

Regardless of what a Kerry administration would do differently re Iraq and Afghanistan, the main reason to elect a Democrat President this year is to RESTORE THE BALANCE OF POWER.

As long as the Republicans control both Congress and the White House, with the Federal Courts stacked with justices who side with their agendas, the only way there would be bipartisanship would be if the President were truly "a uniter, not a divider," someone who actually wanted to "work across the aisle." The Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft-Rumsfeld administration is the most divisive administration I've ever witnessed, and in a second term, when they're not up for re-election, I shudder to think how much worse they'd be.

I believe that the defense of our Bill Of Rights, our precious liberties, depends on either the defeat of Dubya or the Democrats & Independents taking back the US Senate and probably the House, too.   

Kerry will probably be "less effective" than Bush, just because he is not likely to have both houses of Congress on his side and he already has the SCOTUS stacked against him.   But I believe that's more the way our government was designed to work -- slowly and deliberately.

I can't imagine the Kerry administration being anywhere near as secretive and corrupt as the Bush-Cheney administration has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:14 PM

it's not kerry i fear...it's mrs.$$$$billionaire kerry(tereasa)...

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM

I really don't think the Yale Skull and Bones conspiracy theorists are right, Georgiansilver. However, it is plain as day that the executive branch of the US government is totally out of control, and leading the nation down the road to an authoritarian dictatorship. Only one branch of government can possibly restore the balance, and that is the legislative branch.

Think locally, act locally, and do your best to ignore the corrupt big money politics of the presidency, regardless of who the man turns out to be. Turn off the tvs, radios, and stop reading the predictable punditry of the nobless oblige. Get out into the grassroots, and run for/elect third party candidates all across the land and send them to Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM

http://www.conspiracyarchive,com/ Live and learn
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:16 PM

I am not being simplistic at all. I am merely pointing out that no change will come at the top. Change will only come when citizen activists make change at the grassroots level, by electing new people to the US Congress.

We are in the throes of a constitutional crisis related to the Separation of Powers that started under Nixon's imperial presidency. Since that time, the system of Checks and Balances has gone out of whack. The executive branch has amassed way too much power and influence (largely thanks to the overthrow of the constitution by big money interests), and the legislative branch has surrendered way too much power to the executive branch.

The only thing that will bring the US political system back into balance is for citizen activists to organize and run themselves (and each other) for Congress. Only when that happens will the balance of power be restored to the legislative branch.

Right now, the focus should be on Congressional races, not the presidential race. It is our only hope of salvaging the democratic institutions in the US. We are already on the verge of living in a military dictatorship. John Kerry voted in favor of every measure the Bush administration put forward to amass extrajudicial powers, and he voted to support an invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to US or any other nation's security, in violation of international treaties and laws.

John Kerry is not the man for the job. This will become eerily clear to all of you planning to vote for him soon enough.

The US presidency is a lost cause for the US. Our only hope is to take back Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:00 PM

Nerd said it very well.

I'd just like to add that "Anyone but Bush" is really just a slogan, a figure of speech. I don't think any of us ant-Bushies would vote for Ashcroft, or Zell Miller, or Pat Buchanan.

Although Buchanan does sound better than Bush, something I would never have expected to say.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

GUEST:

I truly appreciate what you say about the separation of powers. But, as I'm sure you know, you ARE being very simplistic about these things. In fact, either intentionally or not, you are lecturing us on how the government SHOULD work on paper, but you either don't know or choose to ignore how it ACTUALLY works IN PRACTICE.

For example, while only Congress has the authority to declare war, you know perfectly well that they did not do so in Korea or Vietnam. It is the executive branch that has the power to move troops around the world, and it turns out that when push comes to shove they can do it without Congress's approval. This can be seen as a flaw in the system of checks and balances that you and I both admire, but it is a real one.

What this means is that Bush could have attacked Iraq without Congress's approval--but it would have been much riskier politically. The reduced risk comes largely because, having gotten congress's approval, he has allies like you on the left AND others on the right saying that Kerry is equally responsible. If you want to point a finger at people who are complicit in the invasion of Iraq, then, you'll have to point one at yourself, because getting Congress's approval was done precisely in order to mobilize people like you to run interference for Bush in this election.

Also, while Congress does indeed approve the budgets and the tax code, those are generally prepared and lobbied for by the executive branch. Remember the government closures when Clinton and Congress could not agree? Why would that happen if Congress could simply pass whatever budget it wanted? It can't, because the president has the VETO, and he uses it to threaten and cajole congress. Don't like my plan to shift the tax burden onto wealthier people? Fine, what pet project of yours should I veto?

This is not, of course, how most of these conversations go. This is simply the subtext. The actual negotiations, more often than not, are civil. And get this: Kerry has better relationships with many legislators, even Republican legislators, than Bush does. The senate in particular is a club and he is a leading member. He knows its rules and unstated codes MUCH better than Bush. I think he'll have the opportunity to change a lot, including more progressive taxation.

Here are some other things I think he will do:

Prevent oil drilling in many wilderness areas including ANWR

Enter into serious international environmental talks

Change the disastrous Medicare prescription entitlement to allow importation from Canada and other measures good for us and less so for drug companies

Sit down with European leaders and get them to share the burden of security in Iraq.

Allow stem-cell research to continue.

Not waste time supporting things like Gay Marriage amendments.

Listen to diplomatic, military and scientific experts before he commits to policy ideas (which to me is one of the biggest issues).

As I said, enact more progressive taxation--meaning the wealthiest Americans are taxed more and the lower middle class less.

I also, by the way, expect healthy support for the arts and humanities, which many folk music enthusiasts should care about, although in truth Bush has not been so bad for folk arts.

Those are just a few things.

Finally, GUEST, let me say that I appreciate this thread. It IS important to articulate goals in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:07 PM

I have to add that the kind of shallow, carefree defense of a decision to go to war -- an action ruining thousands of lives -- is pretty pathetic and indefensible. But it is nowhere near as bad as the slaphappy, superficial and irresponsible decision itself. The kind of stupidity which is inherent in the process BB describes above is indefensible in public office and goes well past the pale into criminality.

What crime? Murder, premeditated. The Bush machine decided after 9-11 to use it as an opportunity to take down Saddam Hussein. They did everything they could to make a rationale up that the nation would swallow. But ther eis no such rationale and the whole thing stinks like anschluss or other illegal acts of violence thinly disguised as statesmanship.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:54 PM

Bruce G,

I didn't expect you would. Nor I with yours, as you have no doubt surmised.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

BB--

Nobody that I know of disputes the idea that the Iraq war may have been necessary at some point. Our only disagreement is timing, as I've said many times before, if you'd bother to read instead of shooting from the lip constantly.

"W"s daddy assembled a real coalition before going to war. "W" set a wretched precedent for the world with his unilateral pre-emptive war against Iraq. Don't give me your garbage about the UK supporting him. It should be obvious even to you that is not so. If the Tories didn't have such a pathetic candidate, Blair might well be out on his ear.

I suppose you think it will be great if India or Pakistan, North or South Korea follow 'W"s lead? You may have read the recent statement by the Russian general saying they will attack pre-emptively "anywhere in the world" if they think it justified. When asked for reason, guess who they will cite. That's where "W," with his drunken cowboy school of foreign policy, is taking us.
Hope you like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:38 PM

I do not agree with your statement- The polerization existed before the Bush Administration, and will likely continue afterwards.

Bruce G.