Non-music: Separation support group?

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:38 PM

Have you considered gunpowder and lead?

To you... or the other....both to the head?

Trying hard to keep this lyrical

Look Lady....you have SERIOUS problems....get PROFESSIONAL help NOW!!!!! From a minister, clinic, women's center, family counselor, even YOUR sister or brother!!!!big>GO NOW!!!!!

What type of a desperation goes seeking kindness from strangers? Shades of Tennesee Williams.... UGH!

PLEASE seek help this morning....somewhere!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Deda
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 10:42 PM

Dear Trying -- I also had anxiety attacks. I once actually had to leave my shopping in the grocery store and get out of there because I was hyperventilating. And I used to burst into tears at the most unseemly times -- more than once I had to pull my car off the road because I had tears streaming down my face. It's hard to imagine now. Life can end up being very happy, even after very tough times. Not completely free of regrets, but happy all the same.

If he can't understand what you're going through, and what you have been through, I submit that he probably never will, and it's something like a control trip, and a defense mechanism. It's a refusal to grant you your own freedom and independence, a way to make sure that you're the one who's wrong, wrong, wrong, blamed, blamed, blamed. You need space. My instinct would be to lobby for a place of your own, that's really only yours and not "ours" -- except for your kids.

Good luck. All will be well, and it won't take forever, either.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: trying hard
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 03:41 PM

You are all so wonderful for caring about me, and each other. Thanks.

I am doing OK - moments of fear and panic, but more of certainty and hope. The worst part has been that my husband completely rejects my reasons for needing to do this. I had a very naive expectation that he would say "you're right, things are bad between us, let's spare everyone any more of this and move on". Wrong, wrong, wrong. When I got a good look at his view of what I'm doing it really shook me and it took a couple of days to get out of that pit of self-loathing. Of all times for my therapist to go on vacation. But the mudcat, some e-mails from friends and my sister helped me back to a more healthy perspective. I think it's good I dealt with this now rather than later. I feel like a boat with new set of rigging that just weathered its first squall.

Deda, thanks for sharing your experience. It really is a comfort to read your story and think "wow, her too?" I'm 5'6" and weighed 105 last July. Had to be hospitalized for acute anxiety. Spent six months trying to kick an addiction to Ativan. All because I wanted out and didn't think that was an option. I do want my daughters to learn from me that change is possible, and doesn't have to be devastating.

I've set a moving date of Sept 12, and hope that we will have the kids' custody worked out by then. I suspect that we'll be doing a nested custody arrangement (the parents take turns in the house with the kids so the kids don't have to move). I look forward to finishing this year-long task of piecing myself back together. I expect more pain. ANd more fun - maybe even with my husband. We'll see.

JTT - I love my job, time on mudcat notwithstanding ;)

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:24 AM

Gypsy...and TH....we both regret that it ended like it did....but it is just a regret....we are better friends...and our friendship is stronger becuase of what we once shared....she is a piece of myself...as I am a part of her....but only in a platonic way...in the end we both realised that we could not give the other what they needed for the long run....at least not for the type of relationship we had at the time....

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 09:35 PM

Amergin.........so sorry to hear your story. On the other hand, since i have only thought of "friends on the rebound" and not the people with whom they have inflicted themselves....thanks for enlightening me. It is a side of the coin i hadn't looked at. Tryinghard, how are you holding up? Counselor, friend, pastor, you gots someone to talk with in realtime, lass? pm offer still open

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Deda
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 07:17 PM

Dear Trying -- Boy, I've really been there, done that. I was married to the wrong mate for 15 years, and had two kids. He's a great guy, now (14 years later) an important friend, but we were not going in the same direction, had very little in common aside from our kids. I went through several years of depression, struggling to make that marriage work for me. I got down to 100 lbs (I'm 5'6"), and was just generally a wreck. When I left, our kids were 11 (daughter) and 8 (son), now 26 and 23. I left them with their Dad, for a lot of reasons, some good ones, some just having to do with how weak I was at the time. Are they OK? Yes and no. They're wonderful, loving, richly rewarding people, and I have good relationships with both of them. It remains to be seen whether they can have successful marriages or long-term relationships. Neither of them has yet, but it's early for them. I gained the strength to leave from a relationship with a guy who had been in my life for a few years, but only as a friend. The day I found out that he was getting a divorce I left my ex. It was messy and badly done. The relationship I left for ended within weeks, and was nothing but a catalyst. I look back on the guy as an important influence but we never communicate at all anymore, whereas I'm on the phone with my ex every week. However, I never doubted that I needed to get out of my first marriage.

Regrets -- that my son never lived with me after the separation, except on summer vacations of a couple of weeks, and an occasional weekend, and it pains me that I didn't get to participate more in his everyday, growing up life. Nevertheless, he clearly takes after me and my side of the family in all kinds of ways. Both of my kids are now living overseas, and I miss them (see the "Empty Nest Blues" thread). My daughter lived with me during her very difficult, turbulent high school years and it was a rough time all around, but I don't regret it.

Nine years after I left my ex, I remarried. I'm very happily married now.

Good luck. It's tough. One thing that I thought was that I wanted to model for my kids that they could change things and create a happier life for themselves, and I have. I asked myself what I would want my daughter to do if she were as unhappy and I was. I would want her to leave.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 05:22 PM

This is a tough one, tryinghard; your kids do need you - and they need you across the table, not as a once-a-week visitor. But you need to be cared for, and cared about, too.

Maybe the secret isn't to make any life-changing *permanent* decisions; move out for a bit, see how it feels, maybe you'll move back in.

And think about it - is it possible that what you need isn't a new man, but a new job?

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 04:18 PM

You are doing the right thing. When my wife and I split, I was very angry. I thank her now. Our marriage was just making us both miserable. Our child was miserable watching us.

The most important decision I made was to stay very involved in my son's life. He and I have a good relationship and I have the pleasure of helping him grow up. Keep your husband in your child's life unless he is dangerous. You will all be thankful you did.

When I received the letter from my wife's lawyer, I called an old friend whose divorce I had had held her hand through. Her advice was simply to hang in there. My friend spent a lot ofevenings on the phone, getting me through. We did not resume our [more intense] relationship for several years after my divorce. It was worth waiting, even though there were many lonely nights.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: trying hard
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

You're right Celtic Soul, I'm the only one ultimately responsible for fulfilling my needs. "doesn't fulfill my emotional needs" was shorthand for a whole bunch of relationship stuff related to openness, support, communication, trust, etc.

I appreciate the book recommendation. I am aware of my tendency to evlauate my life in terms of my relationships. Not healthy, I'm guessing.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 12:06 PM

If I may give the other side of the coin...

Perhaps your kids will be OK. Or maybe they'll be like a lot of other kids out there who look OK, but *are* wounded. Many children are willing to put up with weirdness in order to be able to see both parents daily instead of having to deal with the split homelife that seperation and divorce offers. If you want to hear it from the horses mouth, I'll let you talk to my mate. He's in his late 30's, and the divorce of his parents still impacts his relationships and daily life.

And, as every single counselor has ever told me; "It is not your mates responsibility to fulfill you. That's your job." Another person may be able to satisfy those needs for a time, but once the blush is off the rose, it's possible you will be exactly where you are now once again.

The idea is that we all need to feel whole within ourselves before even thinking about relationships. Meaning, figure out *you* before not only ditching the old relationship, but starting any new ones.

Otherwise, you may be on that same merry-go-round again...just on a different horse.

And another thing I heard quite often when in counseling; Love is not a feeling. It is an action. It is not how someone else makes you feel...it is what you do. Love begins with you.

I recomend the book "Co-dependent no more" by Melodie Beatty for illustrating what is and is not a healthy relationship.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: trying hard
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:12 AM

Thanks John, but I've seen enough of gargoyle's posts to know I should just ignore them.

My heart goes out to you, AMergin. Your experience is not off-topic, it's a very likely scenario for my future. I'm glad to hear you eventually became friends, and hope your future gets even brighter. You sound like a wonderful person.

Kat and gypsy, thanks for your kind words. Sometimes I feel like I must be the only one who thinks my own happiness is a good thing for my kids. I come from a long line of conservative, self-sacrificing people. It's hard not to believe people who tell me I don't know what I'm doing.

We will be getting something in writing, kat. It's quickly becoming apparent that our disagreements go even deeper than I realized.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:19 AM

gargoyle-If you havent got anything nice, or useful to say , why don't you just keep quiet?

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:03 AM

I knew there was a problem with MEN in your life...little laugh loper....(besides your father) ...thanks for confirming.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Not too late for cabbage, brocholi, or spinach.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:00 AM

On behalf of .....Myself, Mr. Haggard, and 98.9% of the Mudcat memebers who extend you this advice.....

Reconcile YOURSELF, to your better half....run to his loving arms SINGING - - -

I keep my pants up with a piece of twine
I keep my arms wide open all the time
Because you're mine
Please, pull the twine.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 12:44 AM

I've been through it, twice. If you are honest with your kids, and you do this to take care of yourself and thus, them, your kids will be okay. Without a healthy mom, they will not be. It takes a lot of work, on the part of both parents.

Gypsy is right...kids know and it can be a relief to all concerned for things to change in a positive direction. It may be difficult for everyone to see that it is a positive direction. You obviously know it must be and it sounds as though you have no choice if you want to remain mentally, emotionally, and physically intact, since they all effect each otehr.

When your husband pushes your buttons, try to mentally say, "Thanks, but NO thanks" and replace the image his words bring up with a positive image of yourself and your kids adjusting and being happy, as well as your husband. Feel free to PM me, also, if you think it would help.

The first time I went through this, my son was 4.5 and my daughter 1.5. The second time, my son was 9, first daughter was 6, and second daughter was almost 2. They have known Rog as their dad ever since 1979 and have turned out to be really healthy adults. I am convinced this is in large part because I took care of me, so that I could take care of them, too.

One other thing: if you can, get a mediator and/or lawyer to draw up an agreement now. It would be better, now, than later when everyone may be even more upset and/or spiteful.

kat

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 12:38 AM

Trying hard...as a different view on this...your therapist was right when she told you that the other person could not have entered into your life like that....

but you must also evaluate your relationship with the other person...how does he feel about you? I suggest creating space between him and you as well....that way there will be less hurt in the long run....if things change....

I know this from sad experience....about two years ago...I was in love for the first time...with a woman who was a bit older than myself....she did love me too...but I was the rebound relationship...I was the one who could give her the emotional support she needed...plus at the time we came into each other's lives....we were both lost....I was in the midst of a breakdown...and very suicidal....she had lost many people dear to her....and was in the process of losing a 22 year old marriage....

She left him....and found a place and I practically moved in....started working again after being unemployed for 10 months...and things started looking up....but there were times when her husband would come over...and I would go home...that always tore at my heart....the times with her were so happy...and loving...but always tinged with sadness and pain....on all sides...then the day after christmas of that year...she told me she was going back to him....and my heart was torn to shreds...became very unstable....only composed on the surface....and the fact i was no longer on the meds did not help....had no insurance...and again was suicidal....then after a few months I cut off all contact with her...and many of our mutual friends....then finally after a year....we got back into contact....and now we have a friendship stronger than pain...stronger than ties of marriage....stronger than life itself....we are just friends...but we still love each other...it has only shifted....she is the friend of my soul...and always will be...in this life and the next...

sorry for getting off topic....just wanted to say my side....and I wish you the best.....

nathan

sorry for getting off topic....

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Gypsy
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:47 PM

Good deal. Sounds like you are pretty clear on what is important and what you need. me heart goes out to ye, lass, and anytime ye need to talk.......

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: trying hard
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:45 PM

Thanks Gypsy (you posted while I was replying to Mick).

I am already a mudcat member but I joined years ago using my "real" name, which is why I posted this as a guest. So now I have a mudcat alter ego. What fun.

I did tell my husband I want us to date after we separate. ANd I know intellectually that there's little chance my other relationship is built on a sustainable foundation, that's why I've tried to base my decisions on my relationship with my husband. I believe my therapist when she says another person could not have entered the picture if my marriage had been strong.

Thanks for the encouragement. I am trying very hard to listen to my authentic self. I may taake you up on the PM offer.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,trying hard
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:27 PM

Thanks, Mick. We are seeing a very good counselor together and I have been in individual therapy for the past year. It helps a lot, but I only talk to the shrink once a week - so here I am, using up bytes on Mudcat.

The decision to leave has been made, I'm just looking for some perspective from people like you. Thanks again

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Gypsy
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:13 PM

Hi guest. I am the child of divorced parents. And guess what? I was thrilled when they divorced. Our home life had gotten so strange, and kids KNOW when thier parents don't get along. Get counseling, and figure out whawt you need. What your kids need are happy, well adjusted parents, whether or not they live together. Your new friend? I can almost guarantee that he is a rebound. Stay single for a while, or try separation. You may find yourself falling in love with your husband again. Or not. But find YOURSELF before anyone else. That is how you will be the most benefit to your children. Join the 'cat, and feel free to pm me.

Subject: RE: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:06 PM

I was divorced after a long period of counseling. I have two kids by my first marriage. The kids will not be OK, but neither will you if you don't deal with this. The facts are that they will be severely impacted either way. Your obligation is to yourself and to them. One thing I would tell you is that you must tell the other person that you will see them on the other side. That will be difficult in your present state of mind, but I guarantee that he will only complicare matters at this point. You are not evaluating your relationship with him through the prism of an honest relationship. You are unhappy and he represents escape. As hard as it is, you need to think of yourself and your kids. If this person cares, he will understand.

Staying or leaving can only be based on your needs emotionally, and your duty to the children you brought into this world. Seek counseling, please, from a pro. Mudcat is fine such as it is, but it is not the real world. You don't need us to tell you anything. You need a professional, dispassionate, professional to help you see the truth. I truly hope you will seek that professional out.

Mick

Subject: Non-music: Separation support group?
From: GUEST,trying hard
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 10:41 PM

I came here looking for some friendly support and read Julie's message looking for friendly words and lo and behold we're dealing with the same issue - but from different sides.

Two weeks ago I told my husband of 17 years that I'm so unhappy in our relationship that I need to move out. We've had counselling and all that, but all it did for me was clarify that we want very different things in life. He's a great guy, but he's not what I need emotionally. A week in a psychiatric hospital last summer illustrated the dangers of ignoring my emotional needs.

My husband is very angry with me because (he says) I am being selfish and ruining the lives of our two children. Way to push a mother's buttons.

WHat makes it worse is that a year ago I met someone who does meet my emotional needs. He's not the reason I'm leaving, but it sure does complicate things.

Tell me I'm not an evil bitch. Tell me my kids will be OK. All my local friends are married and do not want to talk about this.