Software to compose like the masters

Subject: RE: Software to compose like the masters
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 01:07 PM

Play around with musical dice game.

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: pavane
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 04:14 AM

Fascinating stuff.

I have aimed much lower myself. Harmony can generate 'random' tunes which are roughly in the style of a Jig or Reel.

I have played with rules which place some restrictions on the actual sequence of notes generated, to try and obtain a realistic emulation of a style. For example, the largest interval used is limited, because jigs and reels don't tend to make jumps of more than a fifth.

Reels and hornpipes have to have different rules, as would probably be expected.

Sometimes, the output isn't TOO bad!

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:29 PM

When I said "download the program" I meant the radio program, not the computer program.

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

Cage is a little bit dead,IMO.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:58 AM

"deconstructs the works of great composers"

"and when you have finished pulling the wings off the butterfly - all you have is bits of dead butterfly"...

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: GUEST,Salieri
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:37 AM

It ain't in a freakin' program. Give a genuine talent a pencil and some paper.

And take the I Ching stalks away from Cage.

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:31 AM

I went searching for more info and here's what I found.

"Radio Lab" is a program produced by WNYC, New York Public Radio.

Show #202, "Musical Language", on Friday, April 21, 2006, included a segment called "Musical DNA," introduced as follows:

Which came first: Language or music? We're still not sure, but now we'll ponder what comes next. Producer Jonathan Mitchell brings us a piece about David Cope, the composer and professor at UC Santa Cruz, who cured his artist's block by writing a computer program to do the dirty work for him. His program, named EMI (Experiments in Musical Intelligence), deconstructs the works of great composers, finding patterns within the voice leading of their compositions, and then creates brand new compositions based on the patterns she finds. But it's not just copy and paste. She brings something new to the pieces. Drift along to the eerily enchanting music of EMI Mahler and ask yourself this: What would Mahler think of an EMI Mahler score? Brilliant music? A forgery?

There are links on this page by which you can download the program, see more information about David Cope, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:52 PM

Try Dice music

[Extract]
The idea of the musical dice game is to cut and paste prewritten measures of music randomly together to create a piece of music. The random generation is done by a dice roll. The sum of the thrown numbers is looked up in a scoring table to determine which measure to play.

Today, it's W.A. Mozart's (1756-1791) "Musikalisches Würfelspiel" which became famous and succesful. This musical dice game was first published in 1793 two years after the death of Mozart. The original manuscript nor a direct reference to Mozart were ever found, but his authorship is no longer questioned by musicologists (Köchelverzeichnis KV1 Anh. 294d, KV6-516F).

[...]

Mozart was not the first composer who was interested in chance music and mathematical composition. Other known authors are A. Kircher (1650), Mizler (1793), J. Haydn (1793), F.G. Hayn (1798), J.C. Graf (1801), C.H. Fiedler (1801), L. Fischer (1801), A. Calegaris (1801) and G. Catrufo (1811). The best documented historical work is Johann Philipp Kirnberger 's "Der allezeit fertige Polonoisen= und Menuettencomponist" published in 1757.

from
http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/mbarnig/pages/dicemus.html


Incidentally, the whole trick to creating good quality listenable music by this method is to start with a table of 'good' musical phrases that are each able to be linked seamlessly to each other at both 'ends' and each able to function as a 'start' and 'end' phrase - a not insignificant musical task requiring considerable musical talent and theory in itself... :-)

BTW - Anybody remember those "New Age" computer or synthesiser generated 'emotional background music' CDs? Think yourself lucky if you don't - they used to drive me nearly insane as they never 'resolved' - just endlessly rambled around pathetically meaninglessly...

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:15 PM

Thanks, Ivor, obscurity is the word for it, even though, as I say, we have had some successes. At the moment, I only have two of his piano compositions online and the quality of sound leaves a lot to be desired. (Note to self: MUST get digital recordings uploaded, etc!) Anyway, you can hear their rather muffled, pre-digital recordings, as played by the composer at this spot. He used to get standing ovations when playing Mozart, as he does with his own stuff, and gave up a world-class pianist career offered to him when a teenager in favour of composing. In those days they had no classes at university on marketing, the business side of it, etc.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:16 PM

katlaughing, i would like to hear as much music as poss. before popping me clogs, and I'm occasionally overwhelmed by the sheer quantity there is. i can hardly keep up with my own buying of s-h. LPs,CDs,tapes etc.

   I'm intrigued by your account of your brothers' work and wish him well. Obviously I'd like to hear some, somehow. There have been plenty of composers working in obscurity.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:58 AM

Foolstroupe, had to have been Mozart...it fits with his love of billiards, imo!:-)

Too true, TTR!

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:54 AM

Ok... I'll tell ya what. You program your computer to make music that is based on the sensibilities, intuitions, and techniques of the classically trained masters... and grant us a performance.

...And I'll drop off my computer that has been programed to 'enjoy' music, critique it with the requisite cultural biases, and join in 'chat group' discussuions before the concert, and durring intermission...

...on my way, of course, to a jazz club... where I can enjoy music that inspires me as a fully intact human being... to dance, think creatively, and to appreciate the ardors and disciplines that a maturing technique and style signify.

Deal?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:04 AM

Actually the technique discussed int ehfirst post is not really all that different from some used by some famous composers at times in the past.

For instance, one technique was to draw up a table of phrases, then throw dice to select the order in which the phrases would be played....

and you just might be surprised as to WHO did that.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:58 AM

As the sister of a genius who composes some of the most beautiful symphonic, piano, etc. classical music in the world (others have the same opinion who are not related) I get angry when I hear of the latest *gimmick* someone uses to attract symphonies, audiences, media, and funding. My brother has a compulsion to compose; it is his life. He has never had a paying commission; it takes money and some connections; believe me, I know, after working over 20 years to help him promote with no budget. I hate being in a "victim-head" but he languishes away, writing a new opera, himself, while someone who can't even compose gets this kind of exposure. I believe it is a symptom of our society that true talent is often not enough to achieve success...everyone wants a new gimmick, a carrot to put on the end of a stick.

Having said that, some of it is his fault. Also, we did have some success in that we have two pre-digital recordings on cassette, then CD, from a live premier of a symphonic piece and a piano works concert, and one digital recording, also from a live concert, of some of his piano pieces which I have not put on CD, yet.

We used to joke that we should fake his death, *find* his manuscripts and THEN watch the media momentum take over; or, chang his last name to "Hudsinski" instead of Hudson. I did use an advert slogan once which said, "Composers don't have to be dead to be good."

(rant off)

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:21 AM

good question

Recreating magnificent fugues has to be one of the most incredible achievements.

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM

So as a composer matures, and his style changes, do you load in separate "phases" of his composing life, or just an "amalgam" or "melange" - an "average" of all his differing styles?

Subject: RE: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 12:05 AM

Interesting thesis indeed. Is the music less beautiful because a programmer loaded in the intervals and sequences of a genius and the program did a recombination and regeneration using those sequences and intervals?

I would imagine that the beauty is no less, regardless of the process used to arrive at it.

A

Subject: BS: Software to compose like the masters
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:06 PM

Michael Cope of U.C. Santa Cruz received a commision to write an opera. The money was already spent supporting his family of five when he developed composer's block. He said one note seemed no different than another and themes were beyond his grasp.
Describing his nightmare dilemma to an acquaintence he asked if there was such a thing as an intelligent program to assist composition and not just notation. The answer was "there are no intelligent programs but you could build a machine that could recreate themes bound by your parameters...

So Mike spent a year loading in all the great masters of vocal and orchestral music. Boring labor for sure. Loading the typical sequence of notes in the particular way Chopin would play various kinds of Nocturnes, Caprice or Impromptus. After the bulk of all Possible music forms and composers were painstakingly loaded it was time for the computers first creation.

He then told the computer to crank out an original Bach choral. The piano midi version sounded strained and he threw it away.
He later retrieved it and had human voices sing it. IT was beautiful.
So was the Mahler, Copeland, Debussy etc.

He has musicians perform these works now. An elderly lady who had not read the program notes exclaimed "that was so incredibly beautiful" when another patron satrted to say "but don't you know that that stuff was only... ah never mind".

These compositions have angered quite a few people.
I would naturally love to hear an original Bach double concerto that I could make with the click of my mouse. Naturally the premise should work with folk music genres as well.
Computer play me a Lemon blossom special...click


At least this is the way I heard it on npr radio
radiolab.org or
radiolab.npr.org