Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:25 PM

Thanks for responding, now I'm off to sharpen the tines of my pitchfork.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM

Pfr, I absolutely agree with your last post.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM

Sometimes, yes, bed things can be done only once. Oops, I meant bad. I bullied someone once, never before nor again. Felt awful, for decades, about it.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM

The thread title and much of the discussion demonstrate exactly how women's outrage is still viewed. No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it, much less a whole class of people... and you can't refer (or fail to object) to a powerful movement in the way the thread title does, without showing your precise point on the enormous continuum of misogyny.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:43 PM

Susan, do you carry your pitchfork in your right hand and your torch in the left, or the other way 'round?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

wysiwyg - That'll be a powerful movement that is necessary, important,
and an effective vehicle in the struggle for overdue fairness and justice.

But it aint perfect, and will harbour amongst the multitude of women fighting this cause,
a minority who are motivated by unjust spite and disproportionate vengeance...
That's just good ol' human nature...


"No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it, much less a whole class of people"

well.. maybe the elderly Jewish lady who survived the holocaust,
who has jut passed away...
She later realized how much better living could be after she let go of the bitterness,
and forgave her n@zi torturers...
She didn't do it for the evil old men who took so much away from her in her childhood,
but for herself, for her own sense of well being...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/06/eva-kor-survivor-of-mengele-dies-during-annual-trip-to-auschwitz

"Forgive your worst enemies,” Kor said in a video recording of her last visit to the Auschwitz Museum posted to its official Facebook page.
“The moment I forgave the Nazis, I felt free from Auschwitz and from all the tragedy that had occurred to me,” she added."

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

btw.. where exactly is my "precise point on the enormous continuum of misogyny"...???

That might have sounded a bit clever when you were typing it,
but it's just as over reacting & insulting as any of the stupid things
chauvinistic men can say about all women...

..or any other zealots when attacking their perceived enemy...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:21 PM

Society is outraged by crime, and rightly so. We cry out for heavier and longer penalties for those who commit crime, and we often complain that a criminal got just a slap on the wrist for his crime.
I spent a lot of time on the job in jails and prisons, and I never found a prison that looked like a country club. One month in jail is still a significant punishment. Five years in prison is almost inhumane... even though it may not be equal to the anguish suffered by the victim of the crime.
I think we need to reconsider our response to crime. We waste too much money and too many human lives in our prisons. And we set people up for further crime if we deny inmates employment and exclude them from society once they are released.
If a person evades punishment for fifty years like some offenders have, they deserve prosecution and punishment. But if they were punished for their crime fifty years ago, the punishment should not continue for a lifetime. Peter Yarrow spent time in jail, and I understand that the conviction was part of the reason why PP&M broke up for a decade. Yarrow paid the price fifty years ago. Continued shunning is not necessary or helpful or just.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:38 PM

"I wouldn't leave any of them alone with my daughter." ... um ... is anyone asking you to?

"No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it" - Is anyone telling the woman in question how long she gets to stay mad, or asking her if she is still mad (or if she ever was)?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:52 PM

The United States has a strange obsession with putting people in prison.

The USA officially has the highest incarceration rate in the world, according to data from the International Center for Prison Studies. For every 100,000 people who lived in the US in 2011, 716 were in jail. Most European countries, like France, Germany and the UK, have between 50 and 150 prisoners per 100,000 residents.

Despite falling crime rates, the US prison population has grown from 307,276 in 1978 to a high of 1.6 million prisoners in state and federal prisons in 2009, according to a report from the Pew Research Center. Since then, in the last three years, the prison population has declined, but only slightly.

Joe, have you read The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone?It was written by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, two English academics with a background in "health inequalities", and first published in 2009. They offer evidence to show that many aspects of society - from life expectancy to mental illness, from violence to illiteracy - are determined not by how wealthy a society is, but how equal it is. It's a fascinating account, and the USA and the UK have a great deal in common.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM

Odd that this survives above the line ...

Regards

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:07 PM

I'm fully with Susan and gillymor on this. This is not about a sex offender getting his legal just desserts then expecting everyone to forget it and give him a bye. I've just been done for speeding (87mph in a 70). I got fined and my points last for four years. In law, I'm clear after four years. But that doesn't mean I never did it, that it should be forgotten, that I'm as innocent as any non-speeder. I'm besmirched for life. Lots of people close to me who know what I did won't forget it. It may, at a stretch, even colour their view as to whether I should ever be entirely trusted behind the wheel. I can't insist that they forget all about it once the four years are up. I wouldn't trust a bloke who once flashed his dick at a young girl ever. Not even after fifty years. His judgement on that occasion was terrible and he can never prove to the world that he's incapable of doing it again, just like me and my speeding (I've been done before, by the way, and may well be done again, even though I'm trying hard). I wouldn't trust him near my girls and I wouldn't book him for a gig. That's his tough shit. It can be a hard world, and let's not forget that this isn't the law we're talking about. It's about parents and other concerned adults setting their private standard as to how the world should be. We need lots more of that.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:25 PM

Steve - your speeding car can kill potentially far more people
than any old man's dick...

I'd suggest that actually makes you much more of an immediate threat to innocent society...

His dick has apparently behaved itself for many decades..

You're still out at large on the roads for as long as you can get away with it..

Your crime may arguably be much worse than his, yet you received a much lesser penalty...???


I'm only seeing what you just confessed to in perspective...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:32 PM

Steve, I'm a bit surprised by your take on this. No one is suggesting that the incident be forgotten, least of all Mr. Yarrow.

It may, at a stretch, even colour their view as to whether I should ever be entirely trusted behind the wheel.

If it does, then "they" are idiots - unless this is your attempt at sarcasm?

As for your speeding ticket analogy, should you lose your livelihood or pension because of it - decades after the fact? Or should you me made to pay for it repeatedly and indefinitely?

As for Susan, she likes to wear her "Christianity" on her sleeve. Perhaps its appropriate she take a refresher course on Christ's teachings.

Cheers,

Bill

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:34 PM

... oh yes.. and as you say.. let's not forget the parents..

or any other family members of folks you could seriously injure or kill...

Now weighing that up against a flashed dick...???

Not that I'm in anyway condoning such appalling behaviour.....


btw.. my old nan laughed her head off when she was flashed in her 50s...
A girlfriend got flashed at in her teens,
and if I remember she told her parent and the cops were called..

Neither were traumatized in the slightest...

However, if they had a knock on the door from a police officer saying a relative
had just been mown down by a speeding car...

Juat takes a little bit of conjecture... innit...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:00 PM

Some bad logic going on here. First, he definitely flashed his dick at young girls, maybe worse. Second, I definitely haven't killed anyone via speeding. It's a bit mischievous to make that comparison. Incidentally, if you want context, I was caught on a completely empty stretch of the A30 dual carriageway on a long, straight downhill section near Bodmin on a sunny Saturday morning in February. You judged me as a potential killer, yet, at the time of my offence (and I'm not complaining - bang to rights was I), the chances of my killing anyone were precisely zilch. So I've killed no-one, though I took a risk I suppose, slight though it was, but he definitely flashed his dick, maybe more. Yet you rush to judgement on me but give this other fellow a pass for an action that might have had you punching his lights out had you found that it was your daughter he'd abused. Weird.

And I haven't heard Susan invoking her Christianity. In fact, after years of reading her posts, it took someone other than her, in this very thread, to inform me of her Christian sentiments. I agree with Christians all the time about all sorts of things. Joe'll tell you that.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:13 PM

Steve.. but you would say that, wouldn't you...

I studied law over 40 years ago..
Taking a neutral position - objectively comparing real and hypothetical cases,
or the relative severity and consequences of different crimes..
that was all par for the course...

Despite tuning my back on that career path,
I still seem to have some of the muscle memory
of that particular skill set...

You chose to turn your crime public domain, I'm simply running with it as part of this thread...

Personally I think your crime is worse than a flashed dick...
But is it as bad as a one off instance of child abuse...???
well that's for law students to debate..
..and of course bolshy old gits like us...

btw.. carry on the good work not killing anybody..

I've not killed anybody yet either for what it's worth...

But give me more time...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:17 PM

"Yet you rush to judgement on me but give this other fellow a pass"

I haven't given anyone a pass - him or you...

Justice was served for both of you...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:30 PM

Speeding of the type I was guilty of is not a "crime." Maybe you like this bloke's singing or something, who knows, and are of the "aw, give him a break" ilk. Well you give him a break if you like. Thousands wouldn't, including several of us in this thread. It's not about whether he's served his punishment according to the law. It's about whether we can stomach the notion of a bloke who deliberately abused young girls, whether we are record-buyers or gig-fixers or gig-attenders. He has no right to expect people to forget the distasteful thing he did. Good luck to him if they do. You can show the same distaste to me for my speeding on an empty open road (and I don't lie, thanks). I can't expect you not to if that's how you feel. But something inside me says that you can't be feeling entirely comfortable equating the two offences. Just remember: he definitely exposed himself to young girls. I definitely haven't killed anyone.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:59 PM

Steve - I've just read the first lines of your latest post,
and you are talking bollocks..

I couldn't give a monkeys about Yarrow.
My gang of 1970s teenagers always thought PP&M were far too drippy to be bothered with..
Out of curiosity I asked Alexa to play a Yarrow solo track today, and it was terrible.
I'm completely indifferent to the man
..no skin off my nose what happens to him...

You are out of order accusing me of being an apologist for him...

I know anything about his criminality other than what's discussed in this thread,
which I was reading out of curiosity,
then commenting on as is any mudcatter's privilege to do..

But I am a life long pedestrian and cyclist,
and I've heard too many arrogant bad drivers making excuses for far too long...

I have family all over the South West, so I hope you consider that
if you ever decide to speed again.
Grave yards are full of over confident drivers and their victims...

In comparison to that, as distasteful as an old man's dick might be to see,
they are not as potentially lethal...

Btw.. I then read the rest of you post while composing this...
I'm fair and even handed like that...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 10:02 PM

oops... "I don't know anything about his criminality"...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 10:08 PM

Apparently this needs saying again, Steve. No-one is asking anyone to FORGET WHAT HE DID- not me, not PFR, not Yarrow himself.

OK?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:12 PM

Self righteous rants are one approach to such situations..

The unforgiving condemnation of offending individuals to a lifetime, even eternity of damnation...

Well.. maybe that can help some folks feel better about themselves,
in a kind of "at least I'm not as bad as he is..." sort of way...
Like in prisons where a nonce's life expectancy in general population is very short...

Then there are words such as "contrition", "repentance", "redemption";
which seem to go down well with people holding more forgiving beliefs...

Obviously, it's the shouty hotheads who often tend to win arguments...


Just a reminder, in recent years, an immigrant in Bristol was beaten and burnt to death in public,
after being accused of being a kiddie fiddler..
..because he was foreign and looked a bit weird.

Of course he was an entirely innocent victim of lynch mob violence...

I don't care enough about Yarrow as an individual,
but the principle of him being allowed a 2nd chance so many decades after his conviction,
does merit serious discussion...

It's not Like he's Gary Glitter...???

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:45 AM

We really have been here before and the same arguments have been used in defence of paedofile priests, rapist rugby players and predatory pop personalities - "it all happened a long time ago" - "they served their time", "forgive and forget"   
I have little doubt that, given time, some will be pleading that we remember the pleasure Savile and Weinstein brought to the people and the good deeds of Father Groper (some already have - I can remember a torrent of support for Rolf Harris from one member)
People are treating this as an individual case, while, in fact it is part of a whole outlook towards the vulnerable - basically, "those in the position to, regularly use that position to prey on the weakest"
It is a situation that has besmeared the Theatre in Britain and Ireland, is damaging sport, has undermined young people's organisations like Youth Clubs and the Scouts, has entered into our education system, has always been a recognized aspect of the film industry, is a part of big business and politics - and it has driven a massive and irremovable wedge between true believers and their church - damaging both

This may have been only a "not-too serious" incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions - they have my vote on that one
It saddens me when intelligent people refer to their efforts as "self-righteous rants" - that's a recipe for leaving things as they are.

I tend to share Martin's surprise that this should be above the line - it goes far further than just music
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM

I also find it less than amusing that this feller now merits his own thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:02 AM

...And he got caught. Once...

Who knows...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:49 AM

"Who knows..."
And who else? - they used to be called 'Peter Paul and Hairy' in Liverpool!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:42 AM

Yep, once he committed a sex crime against a minor and confessed to it he introduced an element of doubt about his behavior that rightfully should follow him to the end of his days. Yarrow was 32 years old at the time of this incident and most people I've known have pretty much calibrated their moral compass by that age so it's not inconceivable to me that his lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it. I may be mistaken about him but I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims and not on the side of a self-confessed sex offender. I wish Mr. Yarrow all the best and am not arguing that he be subjected to further punishment by the law but if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:59 AM

"It saddens me when intelligent people refer to their efforts as "self-righteous rants""

Jim - you've got the wrong end of the stick...

I wasn't referring to "Me Too"..

I've stated earlier that they are a much needed movement for justice.

Nor am I referring to calm objective reasonable thinkers on this issue like yourself [most of the time],
and most others in this thread

BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people...
Or demands the infliction of disproportionately severe punishment on the most minor offenders.

I've made it more than clear I don't care about Yarrow as an individual.
I wouldn't have shed a tear for Gary Glitter if he'd been hung in Thailand
[or wherever it was he was rearrested for persisting in his serial abuse]

But it's the principles of either give 'em a 2nd chance,
or give 'em a life of shunning and vilification
that deserve rigorously intelligent rational non-emotive debate...

We certainly should not be shouted down, or guilted into silence,
by folks who habitually rely on those discussion ending strategies...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

"BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people..."
I don't think that applies heer P - Yarrow did what he did and was punished for it - no question.
I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied, but that's it
The cases of abusive celebrities continues to be an issue, more revelations about Kevin Spacey this morning (we have similar problems in Ireland at The Gate Theatre)
Until the entertainment and artistic movements clean up their act we rely largely on organisations like 'me too' - especially now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President
Jim
(waddya mean "most of the time" !!!

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

”I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied”

I’m sure we all do Jim, as someone who worked with children I know I do.

But this thread is about a venue cancelling a performer’s gig over something he did fifty years ago, was prosecuted for, and served his prison sentence. No cover-ups, no repeats of the offence.

Completely different, unrelated circumstances.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM

Jim - one more time .. I don't care about Yarrow..
He is not my concern...
For me he is just entry into a broader discussion in this thread...

Obviously he deserves justice one way or the other,
but no one should suffer unfairly in the court of public opinion.

Or at worst be beaten and burnt to death by halfwit thugs on a Bristol housing estate...
Especially when innocent of all accusations from an over righteous lynch mob of idiots...

Kiddie fiddlers do require a balance of punishment and treatment.
But it should be evaluated and served objectively by a calm headed justice system..

Wealth & power should be no let off..

Anyway, basically we are mostly in agreement on "Me Too" and the relevant issues...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Absolutely agree with all of gillymor's post. A couple of things here. He committed a crime for which he's served his punishment according to the law. He gets his "second chance" by dint of the fact that he wasn't incarcerated for ever. But that second chance comes with caveats, and there's a fair bit of conflating going on here. Public opinion isn't punishing him. There is no "court of public opinion." We are not talking about him still being punished by some law or other. The law is no longer interested in him. He will have done hundreds of gigs I'm sure since the offence. The organisers and punters either didn't care or didn't know or a mixture of the two. That's all fine by me. It's just that I personally wouldn't have gone to those gigs. That's not me punishing him. That's me refusing to hold my nose. He's a child abuser and I'm not, so I find it odd that I'm criticised for demurring while he's being stood up for. Incidentally, I've seen all his gushing sorrow, etc., for what he did. I note that one excuse (yes, excuse) was that that's what people did in those days. Well that don't wash with me, because I for one didn't and wouldn't have. That's not me being self-righteous, pfr. That's me being normal, unlike him. I also noted from the contemporary reports that the 14-year-old had been obliged to resist his advances. No casual accident, was it then? I wouldn't bandy around unfounded suspicions as to whether he did it before or since, but I know what I think and what I think informs my attitude to him. That's how it should be and I respect anyone's right to have a different attitude.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:19 AM

Well now, lets see-

"not-too serious" incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences. Which is obviously bollocks.

People are treating this as an individual case, while, in fact it is part of a whole outlook

Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?

His lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it.

So now its prosecute and punish and stigmatize people for what they MIGHT have done or MIGHT do? What's next, the thought police?

I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims

To the point where the person under consideration is the one victimized?

if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.

Rather like those bakers who didn't wish to bake a cake for 'cause they don't like faggots?

Then there's the howling mob that lynched Al Frankin because he acted like a jerk- nothing more serious. I assume you approve of and applaud that as well?

Perhaps that same mob can apply their talents to the serial rapist in the White House.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM

Steve - re: Gary Glitter...

I am mostly a lefty, but fairly right wing on law and order..
perhaps more so than a lot of conservatives...

I couldn't give a toss if Glitter rots and dies in prison,
or is free but stays hidden away out of sight.
AS long as he is robustly prevented from re-offending...

I'd even turn a blind eye if he got his share of punches and kicks in the vans and corridors of police custody...

He is a vile human being.

I know for a fact the local Somerset community were so in awe of him living in the area
they joked in envy about his jailbait house parties...
You can put that down to "it was the 80s" and "That sort of thing is normal for zummerzet.."
But he was tolerated and enabled.
There are rumours one of my cousins went to school with 15 year old girls who went to his parties.
She may even have been one of them.
It's the sort of thing no one ever talks about in that locality..

However, as evil as the man is,
I'll still enjoy his greatest hits - but discretely on headphones,
in case the neighbours hear and stir up a lynch mob...

He is by no means the only despicable artist folks have to make such difficult personal decisions about...

An old folkie recording artist was sentenced for child abuse somewhere in the west country recently.
[no.. not Harper.. a more obscure one hit wonder singer..]
I noticed it wasn't mentioned on mudcat...

[or if it was, it wasn't front page news...]

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM

As Jim Carroll said; "now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President."

Two faces of America;
1. A music festival has disinvited folk singer Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul and Mary over his 1970 jail sentence for indecent liberties with a 14-year-old girl. The 81-year-old Yarrow was to appear Sept. 8 with a performance painter.
2. Donald Trump Delivers Address at US Air Force Academy Graduation - May 30, 2019

Meanwhile, in the UK;
1. Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has seen her one-woman show cancelled after suggesting science may "produce an answer" to homosexuality.
2. A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

Ray Davies was right - it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

"Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?"
No - he should suffer for his own sins - those of taking advantage of his privileged position in order to abuse two children
Nobody is suggesting he be locked away and have the key thrown away - just that those who are in the position to do so have the right not to book him - and that the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked
'Might have done'
Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration so that it can be judged whether he is likely to repeat his crimes
What makes me howl here is that if, say Corbyn, was guilty of such a crime the press (and some here, no doubt) would be screaming for hanging, drawing and quartering to be brought back   

For me, one of the most sickening aspects of these revelations is the foreknowledge that went before the exposure.
Weinstein's predatory behaviour was a running joke in Hollywood yet it took a few brave women nay-sayers to bring him to book
The BBC was fully aware of Savile's reputation with children he was given access to yet they covered it up.
The hierarchy of the church not only ignored the rapist priests, but they moved them on in order that they could go on raping.
It's only now beginning to emerge just how deep this problem has penetrated THE POP INDUSTRY (bad taste pun intended)
Yet here we have decent, intelligent people all chorusing "Pity the downtrodden paedo".   
Sorry (lads (and lass) - I don't buy it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

""Pity the downtrodden paedo""


Jim - you might be getting a bit carried away here...

I don't see anyone saying such a daft thing...???

If they got caught they deserved their just punishment..
If they haven't been caught yet, and think they got away with it,
then it's about time they get what's coming to them...

simple enough.. innit..

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM

.. oh..and I hope this debate doesn't sink to the level of..

"if you don't agree with my views about paedos,
then there must be something very suspicious in that regard about you...!!!???"...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM

the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked

Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?

Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration

And his/her "future record" - provided by a psychic or necromancer presumably - as well?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

Jim - I'm thinking back over 20 years to banter about Gary Glitter
when news first appeared about his computer hard drive..

General tone was something like

"lucky bastard, all that fame and money, and shagging jailbait groupies.."

Then rumours started appearing that he'd raped a baby...
Which completely changed the views of average bloke in a West country pub..

Whatever the facts of his crimes - he got caught and dealt with.
Maybe not as harshly as some would have demanded...

But now to points of law...

Consenting underage teenage girl and raped baby..
Two extremes now conflated in public opinion as the same crime.
Degrees of criminal intent seem immaterial.
Paedo is the only word in use condemning either, and all ages in between.
Even though there are existing definitions distinguishing between paedos,
and sex with post pubescent underage teens..
But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo....

Consent is no defence in law, even if the minor was only one day away from the age of consent.
In such narrowly marginal cases, is consent even considered a mitigating factor for sentencing...???
Should the offender be judged to be as evil as a baby raper...???

I've now read up on Yarrow.
His offence seems non-consensual by most reasonable standards.
Perhaps he was let off too lightly..

Certain Rolling Stones seem to be teflon coated...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

I wonder what I did ....fifty odd years ago.

Answers on a post card.

1st prize...a week in Mansfield.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

"But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo...."

I see you haven't been keeping up: in common usage now, a 'paedo' is anyone sexually attracted to those below the age of consent in the jurisdiction concerned. We no longer have a term for those attracted to pre-pubescents, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:25 PM

meself - I know that.. wasn't it part of the point I was making...???

..about distinctions, degree of evil intent, etc...


btw.. the word for pervs who with a fetish for the extremely elderly is a good 'un...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

"'not-too serious' incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions"

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences."

If indeed Me Too believe that there can be no exceptions (I haven't studied their modus operandi), it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

"Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?"

I know a man who is eighty years old who is in the middle of a fifteen-year jail term for historical child abuse (dating back to the fifties and early sixties). He is absolutely no danger to anyone any more. But he ruined lives. Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM

If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing..."
Similar was being said about abusive priests not so long ago
Came to an end when their church collapsed around them
Some people never learn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?

FFS, Steve, of course not. But Yarrow WAS punished for what he did 50 years ago 50 years ago. And he freely admitted what he did. And he apologized - repeatedly- for doing it. And he's done a world of good since in various spheres of humanitarian activism. Should we "forget what he did"? Of course not. Neither should he continue to be punished and persecuted.

it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

Ah, but they HAVE done & continue to do so. Its well documented - check it out. Start, e.g., with the aforementioned Al Franken. Or Garrison Keillor.

Again, when do you figure the Me Too true believers will get around to the serial rapist in the White House?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM

I wish I'd been sexually desirable enough for celebrities to lure me into compromising situations.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM

Yep, Bill, he apologised. And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time, etc. Now look at here. I care not a jot what other people want to either condemn, indulge or ignore. I'm simply telling you what I think. And what I think is that sexual predators are a bit wicked and despite their excuses and apologies I won't let them off the hook. I can still smile nicely, I can talk politics and can say hello in the street. But I'm not going to their gigs or buying their records. No issue for me if you take a different line. That's all. He did what he did and condemned himself to lifelong side glances. That's what happens. And that's right.