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Worst singing accent.

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GUEST,Wellsy 29 Jun 18 - 01:22 AM
BobL 29 Jun 18 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 03:17 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 18 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,LynnH 29 Jun 18 - 03:40 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 18 - 06:54 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 18 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Pancho 29 Jun 18 - 04:29 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 02:46 AM
The Sandman 30 Jun 18 - 03:21 AM
FreddyHeadey 30 Jun 18 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Visior 30 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM
The Sandman 30 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 07:05 PM
The Sandman 01 Jul 18 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM
The Sandman 01 Jul 18 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 03 Jul 18 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,VISIOR 03 Jul 18 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Corrector of link 03 Jul 18 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Karen 03 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 03 Jul 18 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Hedge Accentor 03 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Peter Plum 03 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Jimmy Riddle 03 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:17 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM
StephenH 03 Jul 18 - 10:57 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 12:46 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 04 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM
Jeri 04 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 04 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Wellsy
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:22 AM

Wow, we Australians have escaped remarkably unscathed in this thread. Didn't anybody think of Rolf Harris ? Now that would annoy the pants off anyone ..... errrr, sorry. Wrong metaphor.

Oh, and Aussie bush band singing is an acquired taste. I love it meself, but I know it would make some of you sensitive Brits come out in boils.
As for Eric Bogle, whom Jack Campin mentioned: sorry Jack, Eric doesn't come within coo-ee [ viz, a long way] of an Aussie accent. His affected twang is deliberate, and good!, comic relief.

But to put my 2 bob's worth into the argument - a couple of contenders as yet unmentioned I think: Rita and Sarah Keane ( of ethnomusicological worth only), and .... sorry to speak even more ill of the deceased ... Margaret Barry ( just torture).


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: BobL
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:54 AM

"Nothing is guaranteed to bring tears to the eyes of a native speaker so much as a Yorkshireman trying to speak Welsh"


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:17 AM

" In every music venue we walked into in the West of Ireland"
You must have gone to Doolin Joe - full of Yanks wearing stetsons
In our part you can't get into the pubs for youngsters playing that **** diddley-di on pipes, concertinas, flutes and fiddles
Unfortunately, singing is still a bit thin on the ground, but it's getting there gradually
Hopefully, when it does, it'll come without that dreadful Mid-Atlantic drawl

Seriously, most of the good traditional songs and ballads transmit into a fair, neutral accent with a little work
I love the Scots ballads, but I wouldn't dream of attempting them in a Scots accent
The ones that don't without losing the beauty of the vernacular should be left to those who speak the language
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:25 AM

Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jack Campin - PM
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 11:04 AM

I have yet to hear any British or American singer do a convincing Australian accent (except Eric Bogle but he doesn't count as British any more)
have a listen to Gerry Hallom, or Martin Wyndham Read


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:40 AM

Just about anybody trying to sing in a foreign language - some can do it, a lot can't.
I live in Germany and have, in the recent past, recorded english voice-overs for various companies etc. A lot of companies here specify that mythical wonder 'Mid-Atlantic' english. Nobody has ever been able to convincingly demonstrate to me what that is and what it sounds like when it's at home.

Lynn


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:54 AM

As I have lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I sometimes find myself singing a couple of words in the "wrong" accent. Nevertheless, I am happy to report that a fellow friend and singer (who is a stickler for authenticity) does give me a bit of slack for my hybrid deliveries.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:00 PM

I love the Scots ballads, but I wouldn't dream of attempting them in a Scots accent.Jim Carroll.
Remarkable, one area where you take a different line from Ewan MacColl, who was born in Salford had a Scottish mother and an English Father, and IMO only got the Scottish accent, half right.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Pancho
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:29 PM

Know what you mean, Sandman but what about his "Irish" accent re The Galway Races? Third rate stage Irish.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:46 AM

"a Scottish mother and an English Father, "
Ewan's father was from Falkirk (maybe that't moved to Oxfordshire!)
"one area where you take a different line from Ewan MacColl,"
How is that Dick (apart from the fact I disgreed with Ewan on many things while he was alive and we argued about them on several occasions - but you wouldn't be expected to know that?

Early in his career Ewan, like everyone in the revival, were singing in a 'Rainbow Nation' of accents - both Ewan and Bert indulged in the mid-Atlantic American ones occasionally
Alan Lomax appeared on the scene, took them all by the scruff of the neck and demanded to know why they weren't singing their own songs in their own accents - they began to do just that
MacColl was no different than kids from Irish families born in London - his accent was formed from what he heard at home and what he heard in the street - he was (according to a contemporary I once spoke to, Eddie Frow) a mixture of both, depending who he was with.
His parents spoke, their own dialects they had Scots neighbours and friends and they took in a series of Scots lodgers
I lived with Ewan Peggy and his mother, Betsy for a short time when I moved to London - when Ewan and his mother were in deep conversation his accent thickened to much you may as well have been sitting with a Bangladeshi mother and son at times.

Maccoll loved the Scots ballads - he was found singing them to a cinema queue in Manchester by a BBC employee during the Depression
From a report of his first being discovered in 1931.
Prospero and Ariel, G D Bridson.

"MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queueing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester’s Piccadilly."

MacColl and Bert took it on themselves to popularise the ballads and made the groundbreaking 'Riverside' albums
Ewan's training as an actor taught him to utilise his familiarity with an accent he was well used to to make the ballads and Scots songs accessible to a British and American audience
In m opinion, it was far more genuine than most of the attempts at American accents you still hear in clubs today, which somehow never make it further west than The Isle of Man

I was brought up in a working class area of Liverpool with a broad local accent that everybody took the piss out of when I left home
I moved to Manchester and my accent changed, the same when I moved to London - now I live in the west of Ireland it's changed again - but it has never lot its earlier influences and it broadens when I phone home (I'll bet E.T's did too!)

Ewan always had a poor Irish accent when he used it - if he'd continued to do so it would have been a problem nowadays it's only an issue to people who want it to be
He had a not bad Liverpool accent when he sang sea songs in the early days - he never kept that up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:21 AM

Ewan always had a poor Irish accent when he used it - if he'd continued to do so it would have been a problem nowadays it's only an issue to people who want it to be. quote
like yourself and your friends here
I'm always intrigued by the conversation at local singing sessions here in the West of Ireland when a visitor who has sung in an 'oirish' accent departs - "gently condemnatory" usually sums it up.
I doubt if they would repeat their efforts if they had remained as 'flies on the wall'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:03 AM

I cringe and feel awkward when I hear what I consider a "wrong" accent.
Sometimes, I think, I'm justified because it is a middle class Cheshire singer-songwiter singing about meeting his love on the Derbyshire Moors singing in(what sounds to me like) an American accent.

But it's my loss. The singer is happy. The rest of the audience is happy. I wish I could relax and enjoy it.

Other times I feel awkward but I'm just wrong.
There was a BBC radio drama recently and one actor had the most awful and peculiar Scottish accent.   Bad enough that I felt I needed to write to complain.
But I thought I'd better go with some evidence. It turned out that the play was set on Skye and the actor was born and bred in .... Skye.

Accents with one label can vary widely.
JC will probably concur that in Liverpool you can hear the word 'book' as 'bewk' or 'buch'(ch as in loch). Depends which estate your family lived.

I don't particularly like Ewan MacColl's Scottish accent but it was 'his' Scottish accent and I'm content he had enough immersion in Scottish accents that we should accept it as such.
And as JC said our own accent can change as we move round the world. I find it difficult to go on holiday without starting to talk in my version of the local accent. Same with singing songs I've heard and try to sing.
I try to start with an apology especially if there is someone in the audience with the genuine thing.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:39 AM

There is a problem with all accent when you consider our chosen form of artistic expression and musical pleasure comes from all over Britain and Ireland - each part having its own distinctive accent and vernacular
Back in the early sixties, not long after I'd first got into folk songs
I went with a couple of mates to the Edinburgh Festival and we were drawn to a new production of MacBeth - the main attraction (apart from the three witches dressed in diaphanous, see-through robes) was that Matt McGinn was cast as the Gatekeeper
We didn't understand a **** word!
For years I loved the sound of Jeannie Roberton's singing, ut it took some time and a fair amount of reading to understand what she was singing about

MacColl made a point of introducing ballads into the revival, eventually he breathes life into 175 Child Ballads, many in multiple versions
Personally, I'd be more than happy to forget the occasional iffy Scots pronunciation for that

WE are now faced with a problem of what to do with around fifty Irish traditional stories we recorded from elderly Irish storytellers
We can publish transcriptions, but the printed word is very much inferior to the spoken versions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Visior
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM

Why not donate the recordings to Eddie Lenihan


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:21 AM

"Why not donate the recordings to Eddie Lenihan"
Not really
Eddie is a performer who 'populates' folk tales raher than keeps tham as they are
He is, of course, welcome to use them when they go on line, (soon, we hope) but our aim is to issue them as examples of traditional storytelling
In my opinion, Eddie'over-edits' what he publishes.
It should be noted that some of thee tales are long - up to an hour, in some cases
Thanks for the suggestion though

There is a chance that our local Traditional heritage group Oidreach an Chláir (O.A.C.) will publish a collection of songs and stories as examples of local culture, but over here, unless you can get a grant or find a sponsor you have to raise the money yourself
O.A.C. struggles to pay the rent on its headquaters
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

are there any other story tellers who might use them pete castle for instance


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:05 PM

It's not a matter of them being used Dick - anybody is welcome to do that anyway - it's a matter of them being preserved as performances.
THey will be archived as part of our collection of course, but it would be a tribute to the memory of the storytellers and especially to their families to see them circulated widely
We used a couple when Malcolm Taylor was Librarian at Cecil Sharp House established a series of Vaughan Williams Memorial Library Cassettes - now sadly discontinued
The first was one of our recordings of Travellers; "Early in the Month of Spring"; then one on British and Irish Storytellers, '...and That's My Story; next, Malcolm and I edited selections from the Fred Hamer collection, 'Leaves of Life', then one of Yorkshire Singers, "Will's Barn" and finally a Fred Jordan Cassette.

It was a great series - Malcolm got no credit for it and 'them upstairs' finally sat on the project.   
If we can't get a book of these stories published - that type of thing would do just as well.
THere doesn't seem the interest in the U.K. nowadays
We'll see
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 11:25 AM

Should performances be preserved,should they not be different every time


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM

I'm tlking babout the recordings Dick - not how people should choose to use them
To answer your question - the old storytellers didn't feel the need to change their performances
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:30 PM

They undoubtedly did it unconsciously, Im sure the performances were not the same every time, however if it is a question of preserving them as a record or museum piece, why not donate them to a historical society or a folklore society or a museum


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 05:12 AM

Worst singing accent Ewan McColl trying to sing in a West Country accent (The Sheepstealer)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,VISIOR
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:09 AM

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGbLjOl6CZE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGbLjOl6CZE THE SHEEP STEALER.I nominate Rev Ken Loveless


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Corrector of link
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:22 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGbLjOl6CZE


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM

why not donate them to a historical society or a folklore society or a museum?
How can they be "used" in that way Dick?
They are examples of how the old storytellers approached their material, not museum pieces to be looked at - something very much needed as examples when you consider the 'tricksy' approach of modern storytellers who feel the need to act out their tales in pseudo-medieval costume
You appear to making too much of this Dick - you've lost my attention - sorry

Nick - not a great example of Ewan, but hardly the worst
I've heard far more diabolical attempts at 'Mummerset' - even from people who are from that part of the country
The Yetties always managed to set my teeth on edge when I could bear listening to them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM

WE are now faced with a problem of what to do with around fifty Irish traditional stories we recorded from elderly Irish storytellers
We can publish transcriptions, but the printed word is very much inferior to the spoken versions


Add some who/what/when metadata and upload them to archive.org. Links to them could then be placed anywhere, e.g. here, Facebook or a blog.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM

Hello

This business of accents is odd. I know a person who sounds completely 'English' and has never lived in Ireland but whose ancestors (not sure how far back) were Irish. This chap, who is lovely, sometimes sings in an Irish accent, and it always feels strange.

But as a child I was always puzzled about why pop stars sang in odd accents, with Mick Jagger being a prime example. It took me a while to realise they were imitating American accents. I have read pieces which on the basis that Jagger would have been imitating African American accents accuse him of being an example of latter day 'minstrelsy' though the comparison only goes so far. It is an emotive term, but the contexts and attitudes are different.

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned 'code switching' here, but linguists have noticed that most of us can speak in varying degrees/styles of accent. We tend to switch depending upon the context and company. Another term is I think accommodation, which is how when two people with different accents meet, their accents automatically tend to get closer together. These terms seem potentially useful to me when thinking about the way people sing.


Thinking in terms of just English, it isn't just accents, but the whole language has changed a lot over the years. If we went back in time to the centuries when some traditional folk songs are said to have started, I don't think we would understand much of what people said. Certainly not the French speaking Normans. Reading it is problematic too. So it isn't just that the 'accent' has changed over the years, the whole language has too. So the 'old' songs, it seems to me, have to have changed too.

Jack, on transcribing oral texts, the linguists have devised methods of annotating these to show pauses and so on. There are also complicated methods of showing how pitch varies during speaking (which I cannot use, just know about). But you are right that the printed word cannot capture everything about a spoken version, and a spoken version will omit all of the non-verbal communication that accompanies the verbal.


I once met a Frenchman who had learned to speak English in Yorkshire and had a wonderful Yorkshire accent. It came as a surprise, but I quite liked it: you felt he had learned it among people, not from books teaching Received Pronunciation.

Accents are emotive things.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:21 AM

Just listened to Ewan again. No not the worst but close.
I didn't mind the Yetties. At least they were from Dorset. (Well they still are in fact)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM

Thanks Jack

Karen
It's always struck me that, certainly since the late fifties, all British pop music is based on a somewhat odd Americanese - even my fellow Liverpudlians, The Beatles
Not just pop, of course - that has filtered into singer-songwriter 'folk'
We once booked a very fine Welsh harmonica player at The Singers Club - also a singer of his own songs
He had a fine speaking accent but sang everything in 'mid-Atlantic'
He introduced one of his songs, telling how he had been inspired by a girl he met while he was working at a Holiday Camp - it was based on their parting and going their separate ways, and his measuring the separation by the names of the stations he passed though on the way home - quite a nice idea.
Then he said "The English and Welsh names didn't work for me, so I changed them to American ones" - the spoiling of a nice idea.
I've never understood people's lack of confidence in their own natural way of speaking

One of the big culture shocks we had regarding language was when we were staying on a Greek Island and had climbed the hill above the town for some refreshment
We twenty into a small shop to buy ice cream and, while we were bending over the fridge trying to interpret the different brands we were approached by the young woman serving, swathed entirely in the traditional black of Greek widow, who told us "that's vanilla, that't's lime and that's chocolate chip, luv" - in pure, fluent North-East Londonese
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Hedge Accentor
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM

Yetties are from Dorset. They sing in Dorset accents,their own accents. Jimmy Miller failed when he tried to sing in different accents, other than his own, his attempts at Scottish and Irish and West Country are laughable.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Peter Plum
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM

Peter Pears,Lonnie Donegan,Bob Dylan,Ewan McColl.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM

"Jimmy Miller"
Did Robert Zimmermann do the same, or Ethel Gumm or Maria Louise Ciccone?
Who the fuck is Jimmy Miller?
Why do people insist on posting this garbage thirty years after the man snuffed it
You undermine your argument before you start
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

Just occurred to me - ARE there any recordings of Ewan MacColl singing in a Salford accent?


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Jimmy Riddle
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM

Jimmy Miller is the name he was born with, it is the name Joan Littlewood his ex partner refers to him in her book.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

"Jimmy Miller is the name he was born with, "
And he changed it by deed poll
Do you talk about Robert Zimmerman?
Bet you don't
How about John Pandrich?
This Jimmy Miller" garbage is becoming a sure sign of old-folkie senility - the youngsters don't know who you are referring to and just seems spiteful sour grapes from folkie crumblies to continue is's necrophobic use.
I do wish some people would grow up so we can discuss these things sensibly   
Personally, I don't give two monkeys what people thought of Ewan as a singer and most of them who take snide digs at him never met him - none of that matters to me
To me, MacColl is a dead friend who went out of his way to work with younger singers who asked for his help while the rest of the folkie-stars got on with their careers

Is your name really "Jimmy Riddle" by the way - I thought that was a bodily function?
If it isn'yt, why did you change it?

"ARE there any recordings of Ewan MacColl singing in a Salford accent?"
Don't think there are - his period as an actor and his nomadic life changed that as it did mine and others
THe BBC description from the 1930s depression described hims as singing in a Scots accent
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:15 PM

Jim, he should have sung in a Salford accent, Particularly as he and Peggy were so critical "of the cockney who sang rock island line?in his own "cockney" accent".


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:17 PM

Thinking about it Jack, there is an album where MacColl sings with a Salford accent, Topic's early - 'The Singing Streets', on which he swaps Children's Songs with Dominic Behan
Jim


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM

"Jim, he should have sung in a Salford accent, "
He didn't speak in a Salford accent when he became a singer - why should he sing in an accent that was not his own?
As far as the young feller trying to sing like Leadbelly (Peggy not both) - the Singers Club (that was where the argument was aimed at) was set up to encourage singers singing songs from their own national backgrounds - certainly not English honkies trying to sound like black American convicts
The aim was to put British songs on the map rather than the predominantly Yankee stuff that filled the record shelves in those days
If your own repertoire is basically British, you owe a vote of thanks to the people who followed our lead in opening up venues which encouraged those songs
I do wish I didn't have to keep repeating this piece of simple common sense
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

As far as the young feller trying to sing like Leadbelly (Peggy not both) - the Singers Club (that was where the argument was aimed at) was set up to encourage singers singing songs from their own national backgrounds - certainly not English honkies trying to sound like black American convicts
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT A HONKIE IS? anyway this guy was singing in his own cockney accent,so he was not trying to sound like leadbelly, but peggy found this funny, she was hyprocitical, there she was singing appalachian songs with a new york accent,its like the mad hatters tea party


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

non of which alters the fact that both of them were very good performers, [and Peggy still is] and very good songwriters


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM

"I DO NOT KNOW WHAT A HONKIE IS? "
Really - yuo ahve lived a sheltered life !!
It's a black term for a white man - no need to shout
No - the lad wasn't singing in his own Cockney accent - that's the problem - very few people who sing American songs ever do
Apart from that, you haven't read a word I wrote and you will continue to regard Peggy (an American) as a hypocrite for singing American songs
I suggest if you ever meet her you should tell her what you think - she will probably think you are as daft as I do, though she's more good manners than I am so she won't tell you so.
Can you produce proof that Ewan (or anybody) ever suggested you should sing songs from your own street, area, town or county?
Won't hold my breath !
By the way, Peggy may have been born in New York, but she was educated in Massachusetts and she traveller the world, including Russia and China, before settling in England with Ewan, where she lived most of her life
As a child her family welcomed singers and musicians from all over America to their home - they had a live in home help, Elizabeth Cotten, a singer and guitarist from North Carolina, who taught Peggy to play and gave her her songs, including 'Freight Train'
When Ewan died, she moved to North Carolina and is now living in Oxford
A chance to have picked up more accents than most people
Now, if you have nothing sensible to add - I really think we are finished
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM

i have met her, in fact i booked both of them, they are good performers, and if the time was appropriate and i met her again i would be delighted to discuss the good points and the bad points of the singers club policy.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: StephenH
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:57 PM

A couple of points that I'd like to address.
Firstly, I think people are conflating singers attempting accents that they have only heard from other singers, with singers singing in an accent that was likely the one they were spoken to in their early formative years, until socialising with other children altered their speech. So,for me, Ewan MacColl singing with a Scots accent - having been raised by Scottish parents - is not the same thing as someone singing in an accent they have no real familial or cultural ties with.
You may not like MacColl's Scots accent, and I leave it to the Scots to judge its acceptability, but he didn't simply decide to adapt it from recordings.
Secondly, since Peggy Seeger and the Singers Club has been once again brought into the discussion, I think it's worth quoting from Peggy's
very well done memoir:
(After the London singer's performance of "Rock Island Line").."My gut reaction was to laugh. It was rude, outrageous - but I couldn't stop.I had to be taken out of the room. After the show, other resident singers insisted that we talk about it. Members of the audience were invited......one of the French audience members said he didn't like my singing of French songs. Stung, I passed the aggro on to Ewan: Well, I don't really like it when you sing 'Sam Bass' with an exaggerated American accent. Then Isla Cameron objected to Bert singing songs from Scotland. A trail of dominoes - we all lost, but in the process found a policy for our club and our club only. Repeat: The Policy was for our club only....(it) has been blown up out of all proportion. It was only meant for onstage singing....(s)ing whatever you want elsewhere..."

There is more in that section, and I realise this is Peggy Seeger's personal recollection of the event, but I do find it tedious that she and Ewan MacColl do seem to come in for more than their fair share of stick when it comes to this subject. (apologies if this section of Peggy Seeger's book has been quoted before elsewhere.)


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:46 AM

STEPHEN H,yes we have seen that before, the recollection i have of that time is different, in that the knock on effect of the policy had much more influence than Peggy says
.The good side of the knock on effect was that many singes explored in more depth the repertoire of the geographical british isles. the down side was that   in doing so some of us steered away from some very good american songs of social comment.
My recollection of the knock on effects of their policy is a different one.
.Cyril Tawney by contrast went around trying to quietly encourage singers to look at indigineous repertoire rather than trying to impose rules.
finally MacColls attempts at scottish, irish and west country accents are not very good, and for Jim Carroll to criticse the yetties for singing in their own accents is bizarre


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM

Agreed. Specially the bit about Cyril.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

Thanks Stephen - my feelings exactly - you said what need saying
That incident took place when the fledgling revival was still basking in the glow of the 1950s BBC recording campaign which had opened up the treasure box of British traditional song yet enthusiastic singers with basically good voices and instrumental skills where still herding cattle and slaving away on chain gangs in a mythical America that they knew nothing about.
Peggy's reaction to the wannabe Leadbelly was only one in that period; there was 'The John Snow' meeting; I don't think that's dealt with in either Peggy's biography or autobiography, (Freedmans bio is ecxcellent, if you haven't read it).

Ewan, Bert and others were concerned with the way the scene was beginning to dissipate so they called a meeting in Central London to see if anything could be done - Bert introduced it, MacColl was in the chair, and they along with Bob Davenport and Alex Campbell gave short summing ups of what they thought was happening and where things should go, then it was thrown open to everybody; it ended up in a shouting match, basically because of the behaviour of one person.
We have a recording of it - it is a fascinating peep at what was good and bad at the time.
Bert went off and continued to plough his furrow and Ewan set up The Critics Group to examine the techniques and relevance of folk song and produced 'The Song Carriers', ten (well-twelve really) programmes on British traditional singing that have, in my opinion, not been surpassed in over half a century

A few years later, I became involved with the work of Ewan and Peggy, and that lucky break put enough petrol in my engine to keep me going till now.
I don't care if people like Ewan or his singing - I like both, but that's not why I stand up for a man who has been dead for nearly three decades
What Ewan had to say, his ideas, his arguments, his suck-it-and-see approach to folksong represents over ten years of concentrated work on the social and technical aspects of the performance of folk song - much of it was recorded and still exists
We have around 200 tapes of Critics Group meetings on our shelves which I hope to sort out and pass on one day.
Shortly after the Critics Group ended Pat and I embarked on a six-month long interview of Ewan concentrating on his work and ideas rather than his personal history - twenty tapes of fluent outpourings.
There are stacks more examples of his work here, seminars, talks, interviews, by him, Peggy Charles Parker and others, all on the subject that has entertained and inspired me for most of my life.
I believe it needs to be accepted or rejected on the basis of people having listened to so they can decide whether MacColl said or stood for anything worth listening to.

Instead, we get this facile and often disturbingly nasty cat-'n-dog fights that seldom get beyond accents or name change or war-records, based largely on Chinese whispers and spiteful rumours - more than a little frustrating.

MacColl wasn't perfect by any means, but his knowledge and his and Peggy's generosity in being prepared to share what they had, well made up for any physical flaws
Sometimes I think all of this is not unlike rejecting The Theory of Relativity because someone told you that Einstein had halitosis or picked his none
Taking the man and his work into consideration, none of this nonsense is worth a fiddler's fart.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

Ewan, Bert and others were concerned with the way the scene was beginning to dissipate so they called a meeting in Central London to see if anything could be done - Bert introduced it, MacColl was in the chair, and they along with Bob Davenport and Alex Campbell gave short summing ups of what they thought was happening and where things should go, then it was thrown open to everybody; it ended up in a shouting match, basically because of the behaviour of one person.
I listened to that audio clip, and the one person who made the most sense was Alex Campbell[ the same man who genrously married peggy seeger andthus allowing her to stay in the uk] particularly when he said does that mean because i am scottish i am not allowed to sing a woody guthrie song.Alex comes across very well IMO
Viewed in hindsight part of the problem with that meeting was the allowance of any alcohol and the large chip on the shoulder of Bob Davenport, there is no excuse for violence, however i can understand Bob Davenports frustration with the controlling attitude of Ewan MacColl.
Ewan was a fine songwriter but imo wanted to control situations too often, you are right ,his legacy will be the many fine songs that he wrote. however of all the people at that meeting the two whose company i would enjoy the most would be A.L .Lloyd and Alex Campbell


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM

" Alex Campbell"
Was pissed out of his mind and his main contribution was to slur drunkenly 'I love the old folk'
If there was violence, it isn't clear who started it - I've never been sure there was

It wasn't a 'clip' - it was an hour-and-a half recording
I've only ever given it to close friends and a member of this forum I trust
I don't know which bit you heard
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM

It isn't just the worst accent in singing.

You can 'write' in an accent not your own, and that can feel weird to the reader. So recently I was reading something by an African American (which I am not) who didn't like the way the early "race records" marketing used what was supposed to be a representation of African American parlance to advertise their products. Suppose this is the 'buy in any language, sell in the buyer's language' principle.

I have seen similar imitations of that speech used to advertise blues-type events in the UK and it just feels 'fake'. And I've read articles about blues music by white English people which do the same sort of thing. Come n dig dee blues man! It's smokin


Probably fallen into the trap myself of course, but there you go


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Guest, I've always hated the pronunciation white people ascribed to African Americans. About the weirdest example of that is a 78 rpm record I have of a Black college choir singing "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" with these college guys singing the dialect. The words are pretty much the same. The accent is what's different. Nobody does song lyrics à la Mainers, or Minnesotans.


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM

Rosemary Clooney's singing, in her own American-English accent, is a pleasure.

I cringe, though, when a young Rosemary Clooney sings an English lyric with a fake Italian accent.
I guess it sold records and made her a show-business name at the time,
but ...


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Subject: RE: Worst singing accent.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM

Possibly mine.

But I'm lucky, I don't have to listen to it!

200


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