BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

This thread, despite appearances, is not a copycat thread.   The "God Delusion" thread is just getting too hard to access--it's too long.

And I'm sure, since Mudcat atheists have had no problem with over 1900 posts of the "God Delusion", they'll have no problem with ""The Atheist Delusion".   After all, we've been assured by them that "delusion" is not in itself an attack--perish the thought.

It's also amazing how much of what can only be called historical tripe is written on Mudcat, especially, it seems, by atheists.

1) More people died as a result of religion than as the result of the Hitler, Stalin and Mao regimes.

Patently absurd.

There weren't enough people alive on the earth before the 20th century long enough to make this possible.




2)   Hitler "sucked up" to the Catholic Church.   

More drivel--this time endorsed by a non-atheist as well as the usual suspects.


It's baffling how many Mudcatters think they establish something as a fact by just stating it--or just by linking to a website.   Don't they ever read books about history?


From Hitler's Pope, by John Cornwell, a book which obviously theorizes that Pius XII was in fact "Hitler's Pope".

German Catholics opposed Hitler both before and after the Machtergreifung.   

p 108:   "By the turn of the decade" (end of 1920's) " in fact, Catholic criticism of the National Socialists was vehement and sustained in the press and from the pulpits"

What changed?   The Concordat, an spectacularly disastrous attempt by Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII, to negotiate a treaty with Hitler favorable to the Holy See.   

Even after the Concordat, not all German Catholics fell into line.

There's a lot more to say--but no more time.

However, it's about time Mudcatters start seeing things in shades of gray instead of jumping on the first cardboard villain that shows itself--especially when that approach conveniently supports the poster (usually an atheist") 's own prejudices.

I'm still, by the way, waiting for--anybody--to cite an atheist regime which has been successful and treated its own people well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

im sure the mudcat atheists must have read a lot at some time,but i wonder if they can find time between all these threads nowadays!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:52 AM

Seen any good badgers lately?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

I've stopped believing in atheism, I've become a nihilist now, but I stll can't be bothered attacking anyone else's beliefs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:37 AM

"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone". Gran Torino

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

`I'm still, by the way, waiting for--anybody--to cite an atheist regime which has been successful and treated its own people well.`

Dang. That was written by one of my favourite all-time folks on Mudcat. Trust you`re well. Ron.

To answer your question, I would posit that Cuba answers your statement (or request). I won`t argue the level of poverty because that was basically caused by a US embargo. They have free health care which is a boon. I know something about the troubles encountered by Raoul, Fidel and Ernesto. The country isn`t rich by North American standards, but looking at the stock market lately, we ain`t doin`much better.

Peace :-) to you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:11 AM

Joe, I think that this is obviously a continuation of the an argument on another thread.

I object to the loaded word "delusion" on both this one and that one.

I would suggest that you Mudadmins combine the two and change the title to something accurate and neutral such as "Atheist and Non-atheists debate." Or "Is there a God?" or "Is there NO God?" Or "The Existence of God?"

---

Since the other thread has almost 2000 posts, it seems to be a good time for another thread. Yes, you can (and should) view long threads in segments; but even so, a 2000-message thread is cumbersome. You're right that there's a question about the thread title - it took me a while to realize this was a different thread. "God Delusion"-"Atheist Delusion" — what's the difference? Still, why not? I've cracked down on thread titles that were pure political propaganda that didn't tell much about the contents of the thread, but this one surely makes it clear that it's another one of those religion/anti-religion threads. So, I see no reason to disallow this thread, although I've lost interest in participating in such discussions because it doesn't seem possible for Mudcatters on either side to get past their prejudices. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:27 AM

I long ago gave up arguing for or against an afterlife or a supreme being.

We'll all know soon enough who's right and who's wrong -- if anyone is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:34 AM

The posts could all be put into the last thread, but I don't think it's worth the effort of 1)transferring them, and/or 2) explaining YET AGAIN how to click on the number by the title or the little "(d)".

I don't think it's religion or the lack of it that makes people in power jerks. I think it's the power. I think religion is only an excuse, and anyone who thinks the whole world should be like them is only look for an excuse.

I also think these arguments are just excuses to beat up on willing participants. At least that's better than wars and killing innocents because they may not agree with you about whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

"I long ago gave up arguing for or against.... a supreme being".

Oh,Rapaire?

Have you not, at least once or possibly more times, suggested that you were such on Mudcat's biggest (size) thread?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM

Good points, Jeri

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:40 AM

Jeri,

I object to the word "delusion" as loaded, inaccurate, insulting and chosen to pick a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:43 AM

explaining YET AGAIN how to click on the number by the title or the little "(d)".

I'm willing to be that anyone interested in continuing these discussions know that already.

I don't know how much effort is involved but how does it compare to policing two cat fights instead of just one?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

The chipmunk didn't show up this morning. I sure hope he's okay.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:04 PM

Here's Jacko again! I object to the word "delusion" as loaded, inaccurate, insulting and chosen to pick a fight.

Anyone who would like to see through Jack's risible inconsistencies might just like to refer to the amusing tirade of insults levelled by him on "that other thread." For your amusement I collated them into one post, near the end of the thread. I won't quote it again. Suffice to say that, to put it mildly, he's the last person in the world who should be whingeing about loaded, inaccurate, insulting stuff aimed at picking fights.

Yours less insanely than Wacko Jacko likes to think,

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

I like the name of this thread. On the other thread and elsewhere, I have stated that before we get too hung up over words, we need to know whether, when debating, you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me." Personally, for the record, I am in the latter camp.

As interpretations of the God concept are all man made, yet are portrayed as being other than man made, I am exceedingly comfortable with the notion "God delusion." If you believe any of it literally, as opposed to a convenient moral code or social outlet, of course you are delusional. But don't get hung up about it. I believe in Sheffield Wednesday, but accept we are in the old fizzy pop league now, and could never beat Man Utd over 90 mins, (other than an act of G... oh forget it.)

But a delusional atheist? mmm.. As God doesn't exist, I am not sure that is a term I could accept for anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me."
Actually, I don't think I'm in either camp. It's next to impossible to avoid religion having at least some influence on one at some stage, so I'm not in the latter. As for atheism being a stance, I don't see it that way. It's simply that God is a notion for which I think there is no credibility. If I have a stance at all, it's all about simply asking anyone who declares their belief to produce evidence. Not witness, hearsay, visions, tradition or the fact that billions of people happen to share the same delusion. Real evidence. Without evidence, God has just got to be a delusion as default until someone comes along with the evidence. If a shrug is a stance, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Sigh. Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.
At least there is still the sensible thread, albeit long.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:44 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it's religion or the lack of it that makes people in power jerks. I think it's the power. I think religion is only an excuse, and anyone who thinks the whole world should be like them is only look for an excuse.

Part agree and part disagree there.

On the people in power, I think it is a spot the difference game. If we were all UK football supporters, WWIII could be created by he supports Liverpool and I support ManU

On the other part. I think there is a desire for anyone with strong beliefs (including atheist ones) to put those beliefs forward. An excuse, no. I wish I could properly find Christ. I could wish you could too... I could wish others could too... but whatever happens or doesn't has to come in its own way. One can not make anything. It is not something I or anyone else can dictate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:23 PM

I think, on occasion.

These types of threads bring to mind the following: You (whoever you are) have a right to your beliefs to do with a supreme being or a lack thereof. And in the same way, you also have a right to keep it to yourself. If that statement has offended anyone, so be it (that`s the polite way of saying tough shit).

I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either. My beliefs to do with this topic are private, a position I wish others would adopt.

I dream lots. Say goodnight, Gracie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:35 PM

Guest 999: "I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either..."

Yeah, what's the difference if one is too self absorbed, to pay attention, anyway. It just means, that perhaps, they are out of step, marching to a different drummer...then arguing about the tempo!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

The woodpecker is here anyway. That's good.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:45 PM

Hey, GfS. I don`t know whether you saw the post I put (on some thread). I was asking how that music project you were working on at that time--about 7 or 8 moons ago--worked out. Well, I hope. I certainly understand if you can`t respond here. Just want you to know I wish you the best.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM

Quite well, thank you for asking. Working on another one now...more like a new arrangement of an older piece that is really cool. I'm trying to set up a thing where I can send stuff, but very anonymously.

Little Hawk: "The woodpecker is here anyway..."

Ah, Its Captain Hawk and the mystery of morning wood!

Grin, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

History is often not agreed upon. A lot depends upon whom you read.

Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South,
the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot
atrocities. Don't forget that Hirohito was into a form of Shintoism. Every war has had a religious component. Remember the Anti-Communist Christian Crusade?

Religious misinformation is a staple of propaganda to salve the guilty consciences
of the so-called "believers".

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:31 PM

The only historical religious war involving atheists was Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot but they only claimed to be atheists but in fact were lead by a political "theology". FreeThinkers don't subscribe to any political "theology". They are skeptics that question any ideology that demands adherence to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

"Vanity of vanities. All is vanity".

In other words, everything's a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

I think in pretty much every one of those cases it was a case of people with religions fighting wars for other reasons and the religion being used along with other inducements to rally support.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:37 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Er, I think Mrrzy was referring to your mate Ron, not me, Wacko. I could be wrong as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM

I would agree with that, Jack.

However...

People interpret these things strictly according to their own prior prejudices...they are generally either FOR or AGAINST religion, and they come to voice their prejudice yet again. They come to these threads for the same type of reason someone goes to a pornography site: to repeat past behaviour.

It's okay if you can see the funny side of it and not let it make you angry or mess up your day. That's why I'm worrying about the chimpmunk instead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:42 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

This gets heavy but,

Stringsinger, I have difficulty with free thinking these days as my own mind even though it is supposed to be logical has got so much wrong over the years.

I'd personally also have difficulty in free thinking as very personally I would like to submit to the power I believe is real.

Adherence is something I would try to do and have tried and failed to do...

But, yes I do see your point about "political theology" and I do not want to follow anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Once Ron Davies has decided to take any position in an argument, he becomes as immovable as a barnacle and as eternal as death and taxes. If we could get him to argue both sides, we'd have a perpetual motion machine. I'm used to it. I talk to him for as long as I find it amusing to do so, but not because I think it will achieve anything. It's just fun, that's all. Gives me a way to while a way the hours...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999--that was me above. I have slapped my w
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

I like Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Heheh, nice flip, Jack. However, you should know that I'd rather smother my privates in honey and bring on the dancing ants than count Ron among my circle of mates. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

I think Ron is fine. I have no problem with him as a person. But he is trying to pick a fight.

Shaw is happy to fight with him. On this thread and the others, they need each other and re the "mates."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:54 PM

I like Ron too. But I don't like the way he becomes totally snotty and intransigent when he's involved in a debate on some Mudcat thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:58 PM

Isn't calling someone "snotty" a little "snotty?"

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:05 PM

I didn't see the snot. Does it not photograph well?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

No Jack, he just can have snotty moods.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Duh.... He's a cat!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:18 PM

I've known cats all my life Jack. Know there get what they want from you ways, etc. but this one is especially snotty at times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:23 PM

"Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South, the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot atrocities. . . ."

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: ragdall
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Worthy certainly does portray attitude, Jon. I'm glad to see he's still around and looking so well.

LH, maybe the munk has decided it's time to dig in for a long sleep? I hope it will turn up safe and sound when it's warmer.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:42 PM

That's an old pic, ragdall. He (as you know, a stray) wandered further after that pic and wound up with a bit of an ear chopped off (my own feeling is that it was a marking for ferals to indicate he was neutered by a vet/local cat group) before deciding that we actually did provide a good home for him. I was not sure if he would stay but he seems very well settled in spite of his snotty moods.

Not sure how to get back on topic from here...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, I think the chipmunk has stored up so many peanuts that's he's decided to just hole up now for the duration.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:07 PM

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

All of 'em, Don, every single one. I'm a rabid atheist (according to some), but I know that arguments that claim that things "are done in the name of religion" (or atheism, come to think of it) are generally eyewash. There are plenty of arguments against religion already that don't require bringing in holy wars and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:14 PM

We had a squirrel taking peanuts from a bird feeder this year. Didn't mind that. One of our 3 cats and I'm pretty sure it would have been Worthy got him though.

(btw Rags on pet numbers in case you remember who we had, don't know if you remember a pic of Bella our grey cat or of Misty the dog. Both had to be put down this year. Misty's heart problems got worse and worse and diuretics, etc. did not work Bella developed some form of quick spreading face thing I guess was a cancer)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:21 PM

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

Sorry for a me too but in trying to get myself back to the thread subject.. me too and very much so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war, and religion's a handy one. What the wars are generally really about though are land, resources, trade, and money.

Politicians also use religion to get people's votes, but they don't do that FOR religion itself. They do it to get into power.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war.

That is a pretty broad statement. Have you heard of Neville Chamberlain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:23 PM

Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support of a war which they want support for. Little Hawk's statement was crystal clear to me. So wassup, Jacko?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:47 PM

Jack, it is quite easy. If you belonged to a race of green people and I belonged to a race of blue people some (not all) politician with want for power is going to say something maybe like the cause of our problems are the green people. We have gone that sort of way for centuries.

Personally and doubly personally as this is the way I want to believe, Christianity should offer a way out of that, not in to that.

Love thy neighbour but most of us fail in some way at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Love thy neighbour but most of us fail in some way at some point.

Sorry, no at numerous points.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

I sense denominational differences may soon result in disaeastablishmentarieanism and a plethora of new non-churches of non-believers. Un-A, Un-men!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

Waht are non-churches of non-believers?

Round here atm , I am aware of a Christian fellowship which has no affiliation (although I think they follow the Baptist ideas) I am also aware of a COE church that pretty well sorts itself out - it would have been closed had it not.

I have met the people who do the organisation of both and I can assure you they are very much believers. I can't speak for them but I think you would find that it is their faith/belief/whatever and wanting to share that which keeps them going.

If I ever did find faith properly, I'd personally rather be at one of these places than I would a "major church"..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:52 PM

It was meant to be humorous, Jon! Sorry if I failed.

re the second point, the "called out" are the church. "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst." JC

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

More likely my reading slag - sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 07:54 AM

When I said, we should look for shades of gray, I did not mean to deny that there are such things as true villains.   My top candidates for truly evil people would be those who cause the deaths of the largest number of humans.

That would be: Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.   Atheists all.   Not to forget Lenin--another atheist.

To return to the book by Cornwell, Hitler's Pope:

And going back to the time before the Concordat:

p 110 (Cornwell):

In the spring of 1931 a Catholic Reichstag representative, Karl Trossmann, published a best-selling book entitled Hitler and Rome, in which he described the National Socialists as a 'brutal party that would do away with all the rights of the people'    Hitler, he declared, was dragging Germany into a new war, a war that "would only end more disastrously than the last.'   Not long after, the Catholic author Alfons
Wild published a widely distributed essay entitled 'Hitler and Catholicism' in which he proclaimed that 'Hitler's view of the world is not Christianity but the message of race, a message that does not proclaim peace and justice but rather violence and hate.'

(to be continued)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:11 AM

More from Cornwell, p 110:

Meanwhile two Catholic journalists, Fritz Gerlich and Ingbert Naab, excoriated National Socialism in the pages of the Munich-based periodical 'Der Gerade Weg', characterizing the movement as a 'plague'. In the issse dated July 21, 1932, the writers declared that "National Socialism means enmity with neighboring countries, despotism in internal affairs, civil war international war. National Socialism means lies, hatred, fratricide, and unbounded misery. Adolf Hitler preaches the law of lies. You who have fallen victim to the deceptions of one obsessed with despotism, wake up.'

So why did Pacelli seek an accommodation with Hitler?

Primarily because of other enemies.

Cornwell, p 112:

"Lenin, and Stalin after him, had never concealed their intentions. They had declared war on religion itself and the Orthodox Church in Russian had suffered widespread murderous persecution at the hands of the Communists since 1917. Bishops and priests were jailed and murdered; churches were despoiled and destroyed or turned into atheist museums; the schools and the press were exploited as a means of vilifying religion.   It became a crime to teach children under sixteen about God."

"Although Roman Catholics in Russia numbered no more than 1.5 million and offered noo threat to the regime, the Catholic Church was no less a victim of Bolshevik persecution."

"By 1930 there were no more than 300 Catholic priests in Soviet Russia (compared with 963 in 1921), of whom 100 were in prison."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:47 AM

You will also note that Pacelli was not the only person to ever have balanced one evil against another.   Note Churchill's famous quote the night before Operation Barbarossa started:

"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

Nor was Pacelli the only person to think he could negotiate with Hitler and come out of it with a worthwhile outcome:   consider, Munich, Chamberlain and "peace in our time."

In fact Pacelli was one of the first to try to get a quid pro quo from Hitler.   In this case his goal was to assure that Catholicism would not be attacked in Germany.

However German Catholics, with a much clearer picture of what was actually going on in Germany, opposed the idea of a Concordat--and remained a strong party in Germany.

Cornwell p 133:

In the March 1993 elections "....the Catholic Center" (party) "which had conducted a courageous campaign in the face of widespread Nazi intimidation, remained impressively solid at 13.9 percent, actually gaining three more Reichstag seats."

Right up until March 1933,, then, German Catholicism, with its 23 million faithful, still comprised an impressive, independent democratic constituency that, together with the Catholic hierarchy, remained steadfast in its condemnation of National Socialism.   While the Center Party had no viable allies to form a coalition, and therefore no purchase on power, Hitler feared a reaction from the bastion of political Catholicism as a whole, a group that was naturally much larger than the Center Party vote, with extensive links and associations on many levels throughout the country. Because of his long-standing determination to avoid a new Kulturkampf and the attendant risk of a successful Catholic noncooperation or resistance, Hitler was not inclined to tackle the bishops head-on.   
Something nevertheless had to be done to neutralize them and it was here that Pacelli's Reich Concordat ambitions came to Hitler's aid.."

From Hitler's point of view, the ideal solution to the Catholic threat was precisely a summit agreement with the Vatican in all respects similar to the Lateran Treaty, which had outlawed Catholic political action in Italy and effectively integrated the Church into Fascist Italy."

"There could be no Reich Concordat, however, without the bishops reversing their denunciation of National Socialism".

more later

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:51 AM

Obviously "March 1933 elections"

Note also, that despite assertions of some of Mudcat's dear atheists, Soviet Russia was in fact an aggressively atheist state.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:02 AM

*Yawn* They were the wrong kind of atheists, Ron. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:13 AM

My proofreading is not the best.   I will endeavor to improve.

The story of Nazi-Catholic relations in Germany is long and complex.

And it's only one of many topics to be be discussed under the rubric of this thread's title.

But at least this thread, being short, is much easier to gain access to than the other, now unwieldy, thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:13 AM

To weigh in on this, I'm an atheist, and I don't give a fuck about this type of thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I don't have whatever it takes to argue with people on the internet who take this sort of thing so seriously they can seem obsessed because they say the same things over and over about the same subjects, and they never seem to get tired of it.

...not that there's anything wrong with that. It just ain't my type of music. Perhaps I should express THAT opinion over and over and over, using a nearly infinite combination of words.

Nah... not while I have actual things to do. (Not that you don't.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:42 AM

"Remember there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

I will make ONE comment, in line with similar comments I have made for 4-5-8-10? years here. I know many will not read or care that I do this.

It is not religion (theism) or lack or religion (a-theism) that is responsible for war and bigotry and hate and a dozen other sad conditions... nor are they responsible for, or can take credit for, peace, art, altruism, and a dozen other nice conditions.

Then what IS? Ignorance & stupidity (different conditions¹), both leading to bad reasoning about life and people and 'how to live life among people. If one starts with fallacious premises, **no matter how they got them**, it is possible to find excuses to accept anything as a basis for interaction with others. Sadly, there is no formal way in all societies to instill any comprehensive concept of what 'good reasoning' would look & feel like.

[1]stupidity I use in the sense of actual 'limited capacity to learn', while ignorance denotes not having learned what one could learn...whether intentionally or thru flawed education.

It IS possible to use 'mostly' good reasoning and still be religious/theistic, but IF one uses 'good reasoning', he/she will also see the limitations of what they can see/do/prove/defend...etc. within a religious context.
It is also possible to use 'bad reasoning' and not be an evil, cruel, hateful, bigoted..etc., person, but this requires applying the bad reasoning in different places. (lots of explication required to clarify that point)

   Until & unless education begins to instill some comprehension of what it means to think coherently, even though actually DOING that remains difficult, there will be excessive and common strife, conflict, war, bigotry...etc. in society(s).

   If all this seems like some sort of rambling generalization to you, perhaps I have failed to clarify the 'idea' of good thinking well enough-- or perhaps **grin** you need some of that specialized education stuff I tout so highly. Scholars differ....

It will be obvious to anyone who has followed my ramblings that I TRY to use that "good reasoning" stuff, and that it leads me to a position of skepticism on many topics...including religion/theism. I do NOT claim that I always manage to avoid all the pitfalls in that VERY hard process of 'thinking'(.... there are many, many places where we humans can deceive even ourselves by rationalizing and not quite realizing how & why we are doing it...) but I DO claim and assert and insist that there ARE standards by which basic reasoning and decision making can be evaluated. That doesn't mean all humans should think exactly alike, but it DOES mean there are flawed, unsupportable and thus, 'wrong' ways which lead to many of humanities problems.

   I doubt that I will see much improvement in my relatively short time, and there are obviously those with a stake in NOT encouraging education which undermines their own power...which is already BASED on flawed reasoning. (See how we get terms like "vicious circle"?)

Ok...that's more than most will even bother to read, but this ain't something that fits into short, pithy aphorisms...although there are some which apply.

You may now resume your previously scheduled bickering... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

Bill, I think these days I would use the word stupidity as failure to realise our own logic and reasoning can be wrong rather than your definition. We do wind up in oddly similar states though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

In most every war fought, religion is a part of the problem.

There has never been a true atheist society. I exempt USSR, Stalinism, Pol Pot, China
and other totalitarian regimes because a real atheist would never tolerate them.

Atheism is FreeThought which doesn't allow for others to do thinking for them.

Jeri, I think you have a point since no one's mind is going to be changed here.
There is a lot of repetitive exhortations going on.

My attempt is to clarify my position, not to denigrate anyone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

Yes it sure is true that if you define a "real" Atheist as one who will not tolerate Evil then no "real" Atheist has ever tolerated evil.

Then again if an atheist is simply defined conventionally, as one who believes there is no God, then the logic breaks down.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:41 PM

I exempt USSR, Stalinism, Pol Pot, China
and other totalitarian regimes because a real atheist would never tolerate them.

But I could feel the same way about a real Christian. I think both the real Christian and the real atheist could have objections.= to some things that happen in the world.

I might think you are wrong in your (I'm reading it that way) atheist belief (ie that there is no deity) but would I want to start a "Holy War" with you over this differences? My answer is no.

You are aware of Christianity of Bhuddism, of Islam, of atheism, and probably more belief systems than I know of I can put forward proposals and state my own lead me to wanting to keep trying (and failing) with Christ but I can not make you anything, nor should I.

Awareness of the different systems is one thing. Which one you take is yours alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM

But I don't like the way [Ron] becomes totally snotty and intransigent

Ron - the Simple Seeker - is not in the least snotty & intrasigent.

Merely omniscient and infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 04:24 PM

"Evil" is a Manichean construct which is subject to interpretation. I would say that most atheists I know are ethical people and would not tolerate what some would interpret as "evil".

As to what is a real Christian, this too, is a matter of opinion not based on any fact.
As long as your assessment of what is truly Christian, I have no problem with you believing that as long as I don't have to accept that. I think that it's OK to reject any system of religion. I don't think it's right to force that rejection on others and in fact that can't be done because arriving at a position of atheism is about thinking and reasoning and this can't be forced on any individual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:24 PM

As I said, German Catholics in general wanted no accommodation with Hitler. But they knew they were being undercut by Pacelli--and they feared the consequences.   Cornwell p 134: "So anxious was Cardinal Faulhaber at the prospects for Catholics under Hitler that on March 10" (1933) " he wrote to President Hindenburg, telling of the 'fear that besets wide circles of the Catholic population."

When Kaas (head of the Center Party) eventually faced the members of the parliamentary Center Party in Berlin on March 22-23, before the critical Reichstag vote on the
Enabling Act" (granting Hitler dictatorial powers) " he pleaded with them to support a 'yes' vote in order to exert a moral hold over the Fuehrer and his stated promises to the Catholic Church--promises he was confident Hitler would deliver in writing (although the written promises failed to materialize.)

In other words, Kaas placed his trust in "a moral hold' over Hitler and promises he felt sure would be delivered in writing.   


When a minority of the Center Party still did not want to vote for the Enabling Act, Kaas "then pleaded with the minority on the score of the probable threat to their personal safety."    He was starting to realize the truth of what Stalin put so bluntly later "How many divisions does the Pope have?"   The Catholics in Germany had no chance if Hitler was willing to use force against them.

There was no question of "sucking up" to the Church.   This is a singularly crass and wrongheaded interpretation of what went on.   Hitler lied through his teeth--and kept the option of force always open--and often used.   Any Mudcatter naive enough to think that because Hitler claimed in a speech that Christianity would be the basis of the reconstruction of Germany, therefore Hitler was not an atheist who despised Christianity, is gullible enough to swallow anything.   Perhaps this is part of the Atheist Delusion.   But there's a lot more.

As I said on the other thread "by their fruits ye shall know them".   And Hitler's actions made his attitude clear.

His actual attitude toward Catholicism--and religion in general--is made blazingly obvious in two songs sung by the Hitlerjugend at the 1936 Nuremberg rally.

I'm sorry I don't have the original German

Translations:

No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hang for all we care
The Swastika brings salvation on earth


Fuehrer, my Fuehrer
Thou hast rescued Germany from deepest despair
I thank thee for my daily bread
Abide thou long with me, forsake me not
Fuehrer, my Fuehrer, my faith and my light.

A favorite SS song had the refrain:   "Hang the Jews and put the priests up against the wall."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:13 AM

I am really tired of seeing some Atheists on this forum implying that only they had the benefit of thought and reason to choose their spiritual path, or lack of it.

I can't imagine a more dogmatic and faith based belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:47 AM

Ron, I think the Nazis were quite happy to work with any church people who would work with them, because they had a traditionally religious population, and they needed to use religion to motivate that population. They would, of course, have turned viciously on any church people who weren't willing to work with them...as they turned viciously on anyone who wasn't willing to work with them. Compliance was their concern, not whether or not someone was religious.

I'm not sure how disingenuous Hitler may have been in making statements in speeches about pursuing a "Christian" cause, but I am by no means convinced that he did not sincerely believe he was defending Christian civilization against atheistic Communism. Why wouldn't he think so? He was quite a traditional man in a lot of ways, and sentimental about traditional values.

The Fascist causes generally seem to have worked in concert with the Catholic Church, not against it. This was so in Spain, it was so in Italy, it was so in Croatia, why not in Germany? I don't doubt that many German Catholics feared the Nazis...but not because they were Catholics...rather because they could see that the Nazis were violent extremists who simply couldn't be trusted once they had power.

I also don't doubt that some hardcore Nazis despised the Church and wanted to replaced Christian worship with worship of Nazi symbols only. But I doubt that that was true of all Nazis or even a majority of them. It certainly wasn't true of the rank and file of the German Army, Navy, and Air Force.

You can cherry pick some Nazi song lyrics that attack "priests", just as I cherrypicked some pro-Christian excerpts from Hitler's speeches...but does either set of cherries ring true across the board and tell the whole story? Probably not. Hitler also wrote about Jesus in Mein Kampf, and praised him for being "a fighter" as he put it. A fighter, he implied, for the things Hitler himself believed in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:53 AM

I might agree with you there in part Jack. Some of us have reached our conclusions through making our best analysis at the time. Personally, before dropping out, I was doing (UK) A levels in physics, chemistry and maths and was would be scientist an a devout atheist.

Whether my later interpretations of events are correct or not is a matter of opinion but the sort of brianwashed by a church and have not given matters thought type argument some put forward does not wash with me.

Others may seem to feel some calling and I'm not going to argue with that either.

The other one some athiest may give is some cop out comfort. I can assure you that personally, I seemed to open floodgates to hells I didn't know of rather than that.

Why I personally stick with it (or more accurately bounce back and forth) is that all my reasoning and belief takes me back there.

In some ways, I wish I could return to atheism. It would be easier on my mind than my failed attempts at Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:22 AM

Why try to be either an athiest or a Christian, Jon? They aren't the only 2 games in town! There are a tremendous number of other possibilities for what you could be...

Why not just try to be the best person you can be and leave it at that?

I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, and I don't have a problem with that at all. You know what I am? I'm a human being. That's something of great value and unlimited potential, and I'm not going to be told what to believe or not believe by anyone.

Any sincere attempt at doing anything is not a failure. It's a step in a chosen direction. You're not here to be perfect, you're here to move forward one step at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:27 AM

Some things I think are inescapable, LH and it's the way I chose.

I have no argument with your beliefs though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:42 AM

I was hoping to read a definition of atheism that was free from catches.

You'd have thought in all these posts, never mind the myriad posts on the other thread, that this might have been possible?

Oh bugger....

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:13 AM

"I was hoping to read a definition of atheism that was free from catches."

Er... what part of 'No' don't you understand? ... :-P


:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:45 AM

"I am really tired of seeing some Atheists on this forum implying that only they had the benefit of thought and reason to choose their spiritual path, or lack of it.

I can't imagine a more dogmatic and faith based belief."

All 'beliefs' are delusion, as indeed the belief that there is something inside us that gives us our 'consciousness'.

What we have is a whole bunch of subroutines - with often many other subroutines inside them that each react to external stimului. These are connected across the whole brianbrain by sets of neurons, that if they fire within about 300 microseconds, give us the delusion of 'consciousness' across the whole organism. Stimuli that are not detected this way are simply not observed by our 'consciousness'. I enjoy reading cutting edge research.

This delusion occurs when we decide that there 'must be something in control' - a common belief among theists. Many people who are deluded that they are 'a-theists' do not understand that real atheists just say 'no' to the magical sky fairy stuff, so they keep on trying to justify WHY (and convince others) they need to say 'no'. I don't.

Proponents of any idea are likely to get carried away and try to convince others of their beliefs (delusions). I don't. (Well, mostly...)

Proponents of any idea that is used to control others (like most 'religious belief systems') have a need to spread that control, especially if their belief system contains the delusion that it is the only correct one, and can be dangerous, and attempt to exterminate the unbelievers and heretics and apostates. As an extreme, consider such as the Taliban, who easily justify murdering others supposedly of their own 'religion' on the basis that it can be no crime to destroy those who are not 'true believers' - much the same behavior as previously portrayed by medieval Christians, and indeed a fairly common belief expressed to this day by many alleged 'Christians'.

When the deluded attempt to control philosophical systems that they don't really understand, such as 'Science', forcing it to comply with their delusions about 'how the world really works', you get such nonsense as dinosaurs and humans living together, certain races of people being superior to other races, and the Grand Canyon being sculpted by water in a matter of hours - they use the faulty logic that if a little over a long time will do a task, then a whole lot more over a very short time will do just the same. In Real Life, many things just do not 'scale' conveniently this way - look at all those old movies where they used scale model boats - the water DOES NOT SCALE EXACTLY, and you can easily tell if you know just what artifacts to look for. Such deluded people must be prevented and removed, sadly forcibly, if necessary, from destroying such systems.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:59 AM

"Politicians use any pretext they can to get people in support ..."

It all goes back to that old cry "hey, there's a big bad monster over there - everybody get behind me and my big sharp stick and I will keep you all safe" - and works best of the monster is imaginary - real monster may be fatal, and not in the least bothered by the sharp stick ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:04 AM

Err.. no. Just can't quite grasp it yet.

But thanks for trying.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:46 AM

"All 'beliefs' are delusion, as indeed the belief that there is something inside us that gives us our 'consciousness'.

With all that, there is also a possibility that consciousness may also be a delusion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:01 AM

There seems to be some here who make underlying suggestions that many, most, if not all, those who believe in a God try to control science in some way or another. Is there evidence to back that up? I suspect most people who believe in a God do no such thing. It is also reasonable that most who have a belief in a God also have a capacity to understand and support science at the same time. Stating the contrary seems to be a red herring often put forward by some in attempts to "belittle" a belief in a God. Yes, there are religious organizations and extremists who have tried to control science in the past, as there are likely some, though much less so, today. But, that does not mean that most who believe in a God are part of or support such nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:11 AM

From a personal POV, I can control nothing but God can.

As for science, I think there is some tie up with science and God that I simply can not fathom. One does not deny the other but putting it all together and making sense of things which at times can seem to conflict is hard.

To give one, the biblical creation, purely evolution or some divine management of evolution?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:50 AM

Interestng information, not sure if it has changed over the past few years, though:Public opinion polls

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 09:56 AM

Science just gets on with being science. In everyday scientific endeavour there is no conflict, nay no contact most of the time, between religion and science. Unfortunately for religion, science (unwittingly) gnaws away constantly at the Big Mysteries that religion likes to have in its armoury (the one it needs in order to continue to control people). Gradually, unexplained phenomena get more and more explained. Galileo didn't exactly do himself many favours by forgetting that you sneak up on religion if you want to get on, not grab it by the throat. Darwin likewise, even though he was careful not to confront religion in his own lifetime. Whilst many believers now, teeth gritted, acknowledge that evolution is true (they simply have to, as the evidence is overwhelming), they try putting on a brave face and look for compatibility between evolution theory and religious belief. My view is that evolution is actually a lethal (but unwitting) attack on religion. Natural selection explains all of life on Earth in all its beauty and complexity and completely does away with the need for a creator. Completely. The best that religion can offer is the risible notion that God kicked it all off and now lets it all run on its own. But just look at the backlash from religion. A third of US citizens believe that evolution is false (and who told them that I wonder?) and we have places in supposedly enlightened countries where creationism is made to sit side by side with evolution in school syllabuses. It took almost 400 years for Galileo to get his apology. Let's hope that Charlie Darwin gets his a bit quicker than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM

Can anyone tell me what we're actually talking about here? After a couple of readings of the opening post, it appears that Ron is saying that atheists are delusional because Hitler killed a lot of people without resorting to religion. Aside from the obvious absurdity of saying that atheism led to the Holocaust, where is the delusion? As one of the "Mudcat Atheists" that Ron is going on about, does that mean he thinks I'm a Nazi and that I support mass killing?

By the way, Ron, have you read all the religious quotes from Hitler's speeches on the other thread? Any chance you'd tell us how that fits in with your hypothesis?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:10 AM

A lot of quotes and stuff here for all to enjoy or curse (feel free to make it Godly or non Godly) at:

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:11 AM

Charles Darwin was an agnostic.

n 1879 he wrote that "I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. â€" I think that generally ... an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:12 AM

Opps,
Here it is

An Atheist Fairy Tale

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

Some more reading, if you wish...or not, if you already know it all from every and everyones perspective... (not that any of those folks reside on Mudcat
:)

In Defense of Evolution (2003, updated 2006)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:20 AM

believing in GOD, Surely is believing in the spirit of goodness.
clearly people have different ideas of what is God.
THE JEHOVAHS WINESSES God is quite different from the God that the Quakers believe in.
personally I believe God exists, I have no idea how the world started, but i can believe in God[ or the spirit of goodness], without believing or disbelieving the creationist theory.
Humanists dont believe in GOD AS A PERSON, but they share the same principles as myself ,they just choose to call them by a different name.
it does not matter what a person chooses to call them selves, atheist humanist, christian, what matters is how they behave.
there are christians who do not behave in a christian manner. is the church investing in stocks and shares christian? it doesnt seem to correspond with jesus christ oveturning the money lenders tables does it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Another interesting information source:

Common Sense Atheism

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Cogito ergo sum? No way. I think therefore I think I am.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:22 AM

"I think therefore I know I amn't"

Harvey

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:22 AM

Hitler was not an atheist:
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."
Mein Kampf


Ron,
Why would an atheist regime treat its people any better than a deist regime? Both force people to accept a belief system whether they want to or not. Each punishes or at least penalizes anyone who strays from the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:24 AM

Good Soldier Schweik

Good point

That is why, when I post, I try to make a distinction between a belief in a human organized religion (Christianity and RC seems to hang folks up here) and a belief in a God (there are indeed many, and also differences).

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:25 AM

Previous attempt seems to have dropped out but another quote from wikipedia on Darwin

"Though he thought of religion as a tribal survival strategy, Darwin still believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver"

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:28 AM

Well, Jon, Darwin came from a religious background. He was always careful not to confront religion but he was acutely aware of the contradictions within and among big religions and he saw no particular reason why Christianity should have been accorded any more credibility than any other. I suppose "agnostic" descibes him best. He was troubled by doubts about his theory (almost to the point of recanting bits of it at times) and was notoriously sensitive to criticism. What he needed was a few good modern atheists around him to fortify him. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM

"Jesus was a good guy, he didn't need this shit"

Jesus The Missing Years, John Prine

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:32 AM

An interesting quote from Einstein:

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

---
great minds have wrestled with the "god problem"...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:39 AM

It'as always interesting to hear what famous people have to say, especially if they are the leading edge of science, where it peers into the unknown. Thing is, the unknown has a habit of gradually getting known, long after the deaths of these guys in many cases. So it's no more than just interesting. First and foremost they are scientists who are used to acting on their speculations, not having speculations they can't act on. In that regard they are at no more advantage than anyone else with a good brain on 'em. Still interesting, though, and, I might add, what they say about religion is in just as great danger of being quoted out of context as all those bits of the Bible we get bombarded with.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

at the leading edge

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 10:51 AM

I think it goes further than that, Steve. I've a good friend who was a top scientist, phd microbiologist working on things he can not talk about because of the official secrets act. He again (and we are now 2010) would concede there is a something else (he is not a Christian or other formal God believer) that is beyond science.

Of course neither that nor my quotes will prove the existance of a God but I think there is good evidence to support the idea that it is far from the "feeble minded brainwashed" who find reason at least to question the possibility of something above us existing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:00 AM

Definition of Atheism/Atheist with no catches.

# Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities. It can also mean the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
# someone who denies the existence of god
# related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"

Concerning my point that saying that Atheists come to their belief or lack of it by thought and reason is a dogma.

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly. Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:20 AM

If our current view of 'science' can be destroyed because some Aussie wingnut buit a "Flintstones" museum in Kentucky with more realistic characters, perhaps science needs to be strengthened. Stopping the wingsnuts requires extra-legal, free speech curtailing, antisocial activities, while promoting science and educating about it is a good unto itself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:12 PM

Definition of Atheism/Atheist with no catches.

# Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities. It can also mean the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
# someone who denies the existence of god
# related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"

Concerning my point that saying that Atheists come to their belief or lack of it by thought and reason is a dogma.

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly. Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

Virtually the whole of this post is complete nonsense. I have to cook the tea now. Maybe I'll come back to this afterwards, maybe I won't. I have to factor in that Jack alleges that he doesn't read my posts anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

If you like, I could provide a small cabin in North Ontario where you two guys can spend a weekend together and have a meeting of minds. I'll just let you have the place to yourselves for three days, then check in on Monday and see how it's going, and if you're both still alive...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:29 PM

Or you could either join in the conversation or sod off and mind your own business.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:38 PM

One could argue to an eternity over what the beliefs of some of the world's past and present brilliantscientists were, whether they are based on reason, and if their views are important.

There is no doubt that one would find a wide range of views among these scientists, if you could accurately determine their personal views at all.

While these top scientists followed their intellects and scientific curiously to amazing discoveries, I suspect their intellect alone adds little new insight into the existence or lack of a God. The main findings would likely be that these people spend their lives studying a complex and amazing universe, and, don't put much importance on focusing on whether there is or not a God.

So, with relatively normal brainpower and todays resources available to us, IMO, it comes down to a personal belief...a belief reached by what each person has learned from family and friends, combined with our current reasoning, leads to each personal choice on what works for each person. This should not be confused with a lazy personal choice, accepted blindly, as some put forward in attempts to belittle a personal belief in a God.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly. Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

I think we can go too far that way too, Jack. We may come to different conclusions (and believe another is wrong) but while I may believe say a Christian trying to wrestle with evolution is in a harder position than an atheist who might simply and easily deny creation, I think people trying to think and reason from all sides is a reality. From your/my side one perhaps just gets snappy when one personally believes one from any other side can not have given thought to work out their own position?

--

interesting links Ed T btw.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:47 PM

Hey, Jack?

Smile for a change!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

I guess I haven't explained myself well Jon. Frustration will do that.

I have found a lot of Atheists on these threads, though certainly by no means all, acting as if they have the monopoly on thought and reason and certainly implying that believers do not think and employ reason.

I am tired of reading that. I have said what I have to. Thank you all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:00 PM

I am also a little tired of the inventor of Chongo Chimp telling me that I am wasting my time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

The main findings would likely be that these people spend their lives studying a complex and amazing universe, and, don't put much importance on focusing on whether there is or not a God.

I suspect something is missed there Ed T. And no, I'd agree it is not a searching for God as in (as I would like to find Christ properly) search for a religion but that some things at least for some very clever scientists will not add up by science alone.

My mate for example would not convert me into Christianity (a faith he does not have anyway) but in spite of everywhere he has been which as well as MOD stuff has included working on strains of yeast for a brewery and knowing more than I can imagine does point him to a something he can not put his finger on. As far as my tiny mind would understand it is a something needed for all to make sense. And this guy is (outside bipolar) the clearest most rational thinking, most scientific most analytic, etc. person I have ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:59 PM

The concept of "the Christ" or "the Saviour" actually predates Christianity, Jon. If such a thing as "the Christ" exists (and I think it may), it's eternal, and it supercedes the Christian religion or any other religion. They just attempt to describe it in their own cultural terms, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:07 PM

I've a feeling you would allow me to go biblical on that point, LH. As far as I can recall (am not a great bible reader) at one point Christ say's that David knew him. That would only be possible if Christ the Saviour pre dated Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:23 PM

>>The concept of "the Christ" or "the Saviour" actually predates Christianity, Jon<<

Well duh, he is the Messiah of the Old Testament. That message is in the New Testament dozens of times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:27 PM

"Atheism is FreeThought which doesn't allow for others to do thinking for them."   Hmm, That may have been the case a century ago, but is no longer the case.

Today, the vast majority of the folks who give any thought to organised religion are atheists, atheism is the new orthodoxy.



In these secular times, the thinkers who hold and argue for religious belief are the "free thinkers"

I am an atheist at this point in my life, I may not always be so, it is not a stance, it is just that I dont believe the magic stuff,or Santa, or the tooth fairy, or that Mr Obama can change America.

What other people choose to believe is non of my business, for some day I may find myself in need of their crutch.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

Sorry, that GUEST was me

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

LH, amy have got myself a little confused there but

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

Definition of Atheism/Atheist with no catches.

# Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities. It can also mean the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
# someone who denies the existence of god
# related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"

None of these is correct, not by a long chalk. Atheists don't assert that there are no deities. They say that, taking into account what's expected of a deity (that he must break all the rules of physics, be far more complex than the complexities he's supposed to explain, and must reveal himself in an incontrovertible manner so as to leave evidence once and for all for his existence), atheists have decided that the chances of his existence are minimal. No denial, no lack, no absence of belief (whatever that means). We look at the notion put forward, examine the pros and cons and reach a conclusion as to whether we should allow this proposed fellow to influence our lives. Atheists just say "no" at the end of all that. It's a process of reasoning. It involves no certainties. It doesn't need to. And I have no idea what "atheist leanings" are. Of course, I speak for myself, though I'm not expecting too many fellow atheists to come battering down my door. Not in a big way anyway.

Plenty of people of faith think about the big questions and have used reason to choose it. Perhaps Jon is one of them. I know I am, I think about and re-evaluate what I believe constantly.

No-one's denying that many people of faith have arrived at their position by reasoning (though we also know that huge numbers have arrived there simply because they were told what to believe). The argument of atheists is not that thinking believers lack reason, but that they have based their reasoning on false tenets. The challenge of atheists to believers is to tell us what tenets have formed the basis of their reasoning process. They usually aren't difficult to dismantle.

Plenty of Atheists are Atheists because they were raised into it or because some aspect of or person in their former faith invoked fear or anger in them.

Well, you can be raised in an atheist family (or, more likely, a faith-apathetic family) but still be influenced by the all-pervasive religion that surrounds us in schools, the media and in the street. The latter assertion, that there are hordes of militant atheists (I'm helpfully rewording Jacko's post because I know that's what he's getting at - track record an' all that) who are no more than bitter, twisted, resentful and angry ex-Christians is just a stock, old, worn-out, knackered, unimaginative and lazy old line that religion constantly likes to peddle. As with God, there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Unless believers know different and are going to give it to us. I won't be holding my breath.

Atheists come to their belief or lack of it by thought and reason is a dogma.

Someone else will have to tell me what this means. It appears to make no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:53 PM

Who argues with the dictionary?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM

One old too many. I'm getting old, old.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 04:52 PM

Sorry Jon.

So, what was missing in the statement you posted? Please explain.

I was making reference to the very brightest scientists in history, those who some referred to earlier posts (for example, Einstein). While your buddy may be smart when it comes to yeast, I would not expect he would make that list? Not yet, anyway. But, who knows where the future takes him?
:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM

Sorry Ed T, what was missing was just that I wanted to expand with my feelings. Bad phrasing by me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

Those who purport to know atheists haven't made their case clear. Statements out of hand are simply opinions not based on fact or real knowledge because atheists have never been polled. Many arrive at this position for various reasons and not particularly out of anger or fear. That's a misunderstanding. Some are raised with it and others come to it later in life.

Actually, atheists I know are not angry or fearful but have found a kind of freedom and solace in their non-belief. They have been freed from the restrictive, authoritative and limiting views of the religious world and have learned to respect science even more as they rely on it for realistic evidence about how the world works. Actually they are free of delusions because they are faced with reality and realistic expectations of nature.

Many atheists think that religion is a choice that people have the right to make for themselves. They just don't agree with that choice for themselves. When the US government is faced with the forced Christianization of the military, the prayer breakfasts by elected officials, a criminal pope who hides child molesters, gun-toting jesus freaks, anti-abortion groups who terrorize clinics, and demands from preachers and priests to legislate in their behalf, then anyone can see why this issue is the gift that keeps on giving. There is nothing like contemporary religious practices to bring out the crazies. For this reason, those religious folk who are tolerant of those who may not share their beliefs are pushed into the shadows. Instead, we have a thread like this one which is reactive in nature and sheds no light on the views of anyone here.

If atheism is considered to be a delusion, then it must be said that a god-centered view of the world is sane. There is no evidence for this conclusion. The weight of evidence mounts daily that religion excuses violence, prejudice, child abuse, war, and lack of critical thinking as well as sheep-following of the pulpit. We have every reason to be
watchful about religious behavior which because of groups like the Tea Party who are out of control.

I don't think we can paint all religious people with the same brush, however. There are those who have their own personal belief systems and don't try to foist them on others.
There are some religious groups who attend to social issues with matters of conscience such as the Quakers. (Not many of these). But for the most part, what makes the papers and blogs are the religious nut-cases who claim to represent their respective religions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I agree with all that. But it's important to make clear (at least in my view) that none of the ills and the evils associated with religion are arguments for atheism. Seeing idiots picketing abortion clinics and reading about widespread child abuse by priests, and all the rest, does nothing to "strengthen my atheism." I'm an atheist because I've reasoned that the "evidence" for the existence of God, and the arguments in favour of him, are all, ultimately, completely bogus. One day something better may come along, but until such times the God notion is not my concern in terms of how I live my life.

It would be nice to hear for once that, just because there have been some very nasty atheists, they don't form any part of the argument against atheism. I doubt we'll be granted such courtesy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

Stringsinger,

You seem to be confusing a belief in a God, (which seems to be most of your first definition) with belonging to an organized religion, specifically Christian, and possibly RC?

The way you confuse the two makes some of your concluding points puzzling? Even if organized religion is evil, that does not necessarily make a belief in a God, outside a religion (a group which I fall in) evil? BTW, some of the bad stuff you raise with organized religion is the reason I do not associate with any).

I suspect that not believing in an organized religion, or Christianity, does not make one an Atheist?

To add to the complexity, I do not believe Buddhists believe in a god? Would that make them Atheists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM

I didn't see that confusion in Stringsinger's post at all. Have another look.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

Instead, we have a thread like this one which is reactive in nature and sheds no light on the views of anyone here.

But I've seen FAR more argumentative threads here on politics for example which go without that sort of comment - why?...

Views: which ones do you want Frank?

Gun toting Christians. I could not anyway in the UK but I am against carrying of weapons.

Abortion. In general I think it is wrong but I'm really stuck on the bringing of a kid with known deformities into this world. Would I (if strong enough) batter anyone over one? see next view.

Adultery. I think it is wrong. I once got stuck with a brother in a way I did not want. He had got into a love tangle was having a kid and asked me to stand by him whichever way he went. I didn't agree with his (initial - circumstances changed, the abortion did not happen) choices but I felt family support was the way.

Holy wars like getting in to Iraq and Afghanistan, I am very much against.

Believer, yes I feel certain on that one.

Failed believer, yes I've made more messes than I would care to mention.

Is this the sort of thing you mean this thread should contain?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

"Sorry Ed T, what was missing was just that I wanted to expand with my feelings. Bad phrasing by me.

No problem, I now understand...Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:06 AM

Christians were among the earliest atheists because they didn't believe in the divinity of Caesar.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

Nah, there was that bloke in One Million Years BC. Y'know, Racquel's boyfriend, that one. I didn't see a crucifix round his neck, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

Ron, are you with us? Your opening post puts forth the theory that the alleged atheism of a few totalitarians caused them to commit atrocities. If you are drawing a link between atheism and atrocity, please tell me why I'm not out killing people by the truck load. Either atheism makes people go crazy and kill others, or it doesn't. Which is it? If the atrocities were not directly related to atheism, what's your point?

Oh, and I'd still like your response to all the religious quotes from Hitler's speeches that Little Hawk posted on the other thread.

I know your standard operating procedure is to say outrageous things and then disappear for a couple of days and then come back and say them all over again, completely ignoring all the rebuttals that other folks gave. I'm tired of it. Please continue the conversation like an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:13 PM

Darwin was agnostic.   I don't think anybody denies that--I certainly haven't--actually I noted this in another thread.   He was not atheist. Nor was Einstein--as is clear from the vast majority of his writings.

In fact the overwhelming majority of sensible, well-adjusted people, have been either religious or agnostic.   Not atheist.

Bitter individuals, on the other hand have a more than healthy representation among the ranks of atheists.   Twain, for instance, as he became more bitter, became more atheist.

And in fact some of our illustrious Mudcatters also fit the pattern--Bill D and Amos being the main exceptions to the rule.   

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

~Adolph Hitler

The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."

- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 7

"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 51



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

Ron, are you with us? Your opening post puts forth the theory that the alleged atheism of a few totalitarians caused them to commit atrocities. If you are drawing a link between atheism and atrocity, please tell me why I'm not out killing people by the truck load. Either atheism makes people go crazy and kill others, or it doesn't. Which is it? If the atrocities were not directly related to atheism, what's your point?

Oh, and I'd still like your response to all the religious quotes from Hitler's speeches that Little Hawk posted on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

Darwin was agnostic.   I don't think anybody denies that--I certainly haven't--actually I noted this in another thread.   He was not atheist. Nor was Einstein--as is clear from the vast majority of his writings.

So what, Ron? These chaps were working scientists, not theologians or philosophers. They have interesting views but they carry no more weight on this particular topic than anyone else's. Add to that that they were very much men of their times, and who knows? Had they lived today they may well have been atheists. But I doubt that anyone really cares, except you. When it comes to relativity or evolution, I bow down to these blokes. On all other topics I can think for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

I have a concert coming up Sunday-- and lots of rehearsals for it this week.   And yes, it is heavily religious music---though there are at least two good pieces which are not.

So I have very little time for Mudcat below the line right now,.

I don't have to believe a word of what I sing in order to be eternally grateful to organized religion--especially Christianity-- for having inspired such a wealth of sublime music.   And to answer anybody who actually advocated that the world would have been better off without religion, I feel that the loss to choral music and vocal music in general would be a overwhelmingly huge reason to reject that idea. (Among other reasons, of course).

Of course I know I can't expect people who don't sing any of the wonderful variety of religious music that exists to understand this in the slightest.

But that does not diminish the power of this argument in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:56 AM

So what are the favourites of others? Through my own struggles and messes, I Heard the voice of Jesus say seems to mean something.

Read the words to Calon Lan here and I love something about it.


To my surprise. Cerys Mattews while ommitting vere 2 does it nicely here

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:17 AM

Maybe a true atheist wouldn't have anything to say in this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:04 AM

Ron, are you saying that being an atheist would cause people to not like or not sing great classical music that has a religious theme? Are you saying that great master composers would have composed worse music if they weren't writing about Christianity? Where do you get this stuff?

Enjoy your performances, it sounds like fun. As soon as you're caught up, be sure to come back and explain your idea that there is some connection between atheism and mass atrocity. Also, let us know why the allegedly atheist Hitler used so many religious reference in his speeches. Don't forget!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:25 AM

Of course I know I can't expect people who don't sing any of the wonderful variety of religious music that exists to understand this in the slightest.
You wouldn't want me singing this music but I assure you I sing along to my CDs of it lustily all the time. I appreciate that getting involved with the singing may give you insights that non-performers may not perhaps get so easily, but if the only way to understand this music is by singing it I really have to wonder what the point is of your performing it in front of an audience at all. Clearly, you think you're casting pearls before swine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:18 AM

One of the points that seem to be overlooked here is that there are degrees of atheism as there are degrees of any theism. An atheist at the most extreme point of the continuum
doesn't believe in any deity. Again, it's the religionists that want to paint everything with an absolute brush. I never contended that organized religion was "evil" because that is a religious term coming from a Manichean view. I would say that it is dysfunctional to a healthy society.

Buddhism is a religion and there are some harmful parts as witnessed by Japan's Hirohito in WWII. One thing that can be said about religion in its totality that it is harmful. There are benign aspects to it such as one can find with tumors in the body.

Organized religion(s) vary in their toxicity. Atheism at its extreme point allows for no deity. The reason that atheists are often extreme is that they find themselves defending their position against intolerant religionists and hence you have the raison d'etre for the title of this thread. It is a reaction to the idea that religion is a delusion, (So's your old man) and makes little sense as a point of discussion.

It wasn't religion that gave rise to inspirational music and art. It was inspired musicians and artists who would have been inspired regardless of the limitations place on them by clerics, priests and preachers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM

I thought Hirohito's gang were Shintoist, Frank, not Buddhist?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

I believe that there are many degrees of Atheism beyond simply not believing there is a god.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 11:00 AM

Would you care to list them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM

So far as I can see, one either believes in gods or one doesn't. Unfortunately there are people who believe in one god and yet none of the hundreds of others. I suppose that could be regarded as a different 'degree of atheism', as a true atheist wouldn't believe in any of them, on an equal basis.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:59 PM

I think the degrees of Atheism depend more on the Atheist's passion about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

"Bill D and Amos being the main exceptions to the rule."

Tweedledum & Tweedledumber?

I 'think' I am flattered...not sure about Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

"Unfortunately there are people who believe in one god and yet none of the hundreds of others"

Some, and my wish would be most, see them all wrapped up into one. So, it does not really matter what human name or face you put on each, or which version you follow. The basic messages are quite similar, anyway.

It's kind'a like there are many different versions of a hamburger, to dumb it down to a more understandable concept :).

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

I think the degrees of Atheism depend more on the Atheist's passion about religion.

I'll accept 'passion about atheism', but it would be degrees of passion rather than degrees of atheism. Somewhere there has to be a line between belief and not-belief, though admittedly it's possible to be undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

"it's possible to be undecided"

Is that not the third category, the Agnostic? From what I read, many may be on one extreme edge of being Agnostic anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

'Undecided' can also mean 'couldn't care less'..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

Two people in these discussions are consistently arguing, in a nutshell, that Atheists are all the same in that they are always logical and that they are always right. Evidence on these threads alone shows a fairly broad range of atheist opinion. The differences mostly being in the logic used, the certainty inherent in attacks and who and what percentage of the believing world they are willing to attack.

For example some equate believing that God will the reward the killing of innocents with believing that children should be brought up in their parents faith. The mistakenly cling to unfounded beliefs that the latter leads to the former.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:18 PM

'Undecided' can also mean 'couldn't care less'..
If so, I suspect they aren't post'in:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

"...some equate believing that God will the reward the killing of innocents with believing that children should be brought up in their parents faith.

Can you broaden out a bit on that....IMO, its kinda hard to understand..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

They lump all believers into one basket and blame religion itself for the action of the few.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

Atheists are all the same in that they are always logical and that they are always right.

I've yet to meet someone who didn't believe in gods/the supernatural (or did, for that matter) who at the same time thought they were wrong or that they were illogical or irrational in their belief or non-belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:42 PM

There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.

There are plenty on this forum that do not claim that All atheists are always logical and by implication that believers are not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

"I've yet to meet someone who didn't believe in gods/the supernatural (or did, for that matter) who at the same time thought they were wrong or that they were illogical or irrational in their belief or non-belief"

I dont know if I am wrong or right in a belief in a God. It is rational for me, because it is what was instilled in me as a child, and at times gives me peace. Others may feel that such a belief is illogical for them. IMO, people are never wrong to hold personal beliefs, or not to have such. If it works for you personally, why would it matter to anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

It wasn't religion that gave rise to inspirational music and art. It was inspired musicians and artists who would have been inspired regardless of the limitations place on them by clerics, priests and preachers.

Fanny Crosby is interesting on this point

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:26 PM

IMO, people are never wrong to hold personal beliefs, or not to have such. If it works for you personally, why would it matter to anyone else?

Agreed but there are more difficult positions, ED T. Having gone through the atheist stage, and then believing a God exists, my life has largely been hell (some of my own making). Whether one could argue it works for me would be debatable and many (including myself at times) would say it doesn't but whether I like it or not, the belief (even if I leave it at times) comes back and makes sense to me.

As posted elsewhere, I can feel like some strange mix of Jonah wanting to run away, Job having trials he does not understand and Paul with his wrestles.

If works means comfort, I'd say largely not. If works means I've had my life transformed in some way and I have become a better creature, I'd say not at all. OTOH, if works means I believe Christ is the way, for me (and I'm not saying for others) I;d have to say yes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:24 PM

There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.

I didn't say 'always' and I was referring only to belief in the supernatural, whether selective or not.

There are plenty on this forum that do not claim that All atheists are always logical and by implication that believers are not.

Implication is often in the eye of the beholder, but are you talking about the logic of specific beliefs or are you making blanket/generalising statements about individuals? I see a clear distinction between the two and I'm not sure which you mean. Non-belief in the supernatural seems perfectly logical and rational to me, for example, but that doesn't mean that, like every human, I'm not capable of illogical and irrational behaviour at times. Likewise there are many believers who may, at least to me, seem to be perfectly rational in other areas of their life. Perhaps the ability to compartmentalise is a relevant factor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:07 PM

Reading the Wiki on Fanny Crosby, I think that from what limited knowledge I have of her life, whether she believed or not, she would have been a person of letters and a songwriter.

This issue is no longer just a personal one. There are too many who are in judgement of an atheist view and express it with hostility, and attempt to discredit it. That is why these threads are so long. It is a problem of tolerance and understanding. To effectively reach an atheist conclusion, most people who reach this have gone through religious training and found it wanting. I have investigated many different religions and as a result have decided that none of them work for me. As to the notion of a supreme being, this is such an amorphous and unclear idea that when people talk about it, it becomes confusing and contradictory. To deny that one exists requires a definition of what it is that seems to be
beyond any consensus or description that makes sense. The definition becomes a chameleon which changes its illusive shape depending on who offers it as their belief.

One of the problems is that a definition of a supreme being requires an absolute that is impossible to prove. Absolutes are not negotiable whereas there is nothing absolute about non-belief. If someone can prove there is a singular supreme being or a pantheon of gods through any scientific evidence, most atheists I know would be open to being convinced. But since this evidence has never been forthcoming in any rational form, it must be concluded that this evidence doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:16 PM

"This issue is no longer just a personal one"


Maybe to you, not to me, and I suspect many others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:25 PM

>>There are plenty on this forum who do not claim that they are always right.<<

>>>>I didn't say 'always' and I was referring only to belief in the supernatural, whether selective or not.<<<<

Were you arguing with me or not? If you are, then I was explaining what I said. If your were not then your response makes no sense.

And no. Your Atheism is not perfectly "rational or logical" if you think it is then I admire your firm conviction and dogmatic faith in your convictions. Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data and I don't believe there is enough data either way to support such smugness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:32 PM

I think the point with Fanny Crosby, Frank is to recognise what she believed and accept what she did and what she felt.

OTOH, no I do not understand praising God for blindness, Much is a wrestle...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:50 PM

Were you arguing with me or not?

Just trying to pin down what you actually meant. I can't really argue with you if I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.

Your Atheism is not perfectly "rational or logical" if you think it is then I admire your firm conviction and dogmatic faith in your convictions. Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data and I don't believe there is enough data either way to support such smugness.

My absence of belief correlates with an absence of subjective, empirical or logical evidence. I have never felt as though I had a choice about it. How is that either irrational, illogical, or smug?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:16 PM

It isn't just that there's a lack of subjective, empirical or logical evidence. That is one facet of the problem, for sure. Just as important is that the supernatural being who is proposed would have to breach all the laws of nature that humankind has worked so hard to shed light on (using that mighty brain that this alleged being has supposedly endowed us with). I've typed that idea dozens of times on these threads and no believer has ever addressed it, not once. Equally, and I think this is really the crucial bit, God, as far as I can see, has been invented as someone whose existence explains the whole of "creation," the whole universe in all its beauty and complexity. The universe's complexities are hard enough to explain (except by believers, who insert God by default into anything that's hard to explain), but the supreme being must himself be far bigger and far more complex than the most complex things in the universe. In other words, we try to explain difficult things by inventing an infinitely more difficult and complex thing, who is not just difficult but impossible to explain, who breaks all the rules and for whom there is no evidence. I'm waiting for someone to tell me an example of any other sphere of human endeavour or thought where this approach would be considered sane and sensible. You know, we get slagged off by certain defensive believers who demonise atheism as the world's greatest evil, who say we can't be atheists at all, who pretend that atheism is some sort of religion or creed and who attempt to grade us into weird categories. Or even question our mental health, eh, Jacko? Tee hee! It would be very refreshing if, for once, they actually tried to address what it is we are saying about atheism instead of casting us as the devils incarnate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:22 PM

The Lord moves in mysterious ways, Steve, you should know that..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:27 PM

As far as I can see, most Atheists start by defining a god, and then setting out to prove that their god does not exist, whether or not any theists actually believe in this god.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:36 PM

Defining the non-existant would be rather time consuming; there's an awful lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM

Pardon my spelling, I was distracted by fairies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:41 PM

Rational and logical thought are only as perfect as the underlying data

Not at all. Thought does not necessarily require data. If I claim that my atheism is based on rational thinking, what I am saying is that everything in human experience, apart from this God chappie, follows the laws of physics, as far as we know. For notions put forward to us, it is our instinct as human beings to require evidence and to seek it out. We call it doing science. Believers in God have characterised him, without evidence or justification, as being beyond science. He's untouchable because you say he gets a bye when it comes to what everything else in the universe has to do, obey the laws. On top of all that he must be far more complicated than the most complicated thing that Einstein or Hawking or any of our other great thinkers has ever contemplated. I'd say it was rational to reject God on these bases. Highly rational, bearing in mind, of course, that rational doesn't mean right. Now the converse, taken away from the context of the comfort that believers clearly derive from their faith, must be that it is highly irrational to believe in God. It's a hard case to put, because people who believe in God often believe because they have been told to, or have just lived their lives accepting with apathy what others around them believe. Then there's the nice biblical yarns, the family thing, the long tradition, the ceremony, the highly-persuasive religious music and beautiful architecture. You could make a good case for saying that it's rational to go along with all that. Once you're in it, it's certainly more comfortable and, dare I say, personally beneficial to stay in it (and not to do too much thinking, something organised religion likes). But all that aside, if you take thought and weigh up in a detached way the pros and cons, and you still come out believing, you are indeed being highly irrational. Which doesn't mean the same thing as wrong, though you probably are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:43 PM

It's not quite the way I see it John but this is just my personal view, I do not know what I believed in at 7 before we dropped out of church but I became a comfy athiest and was glad I was right - and I knew full well how to call someone with belief brain dead.. Subsequent things led me again very personally to believe I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

As far as I can see, most Atheists start by defining a god, and then setting out to prove that their god does not exist

Then you're not listening to what atheists are telling you. Put your long-distance specs on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

I'm listening, and there's nothing out there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:50 PM

Think you are wrong above Steve. Thought IMO does require some data to work on. If your thought then takes you one way and my thought on the same data takes me another. I have to say "so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

I'm listening, and there's nothing out there.

If by that you mean the world should rely on the hearing of Dave Mc, I;d roll on the floor laughing.

We all find what we find.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:10 PM

Data and thought btw Steve could be something as simple has how you interpret the flowers in your garden sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:17 PM

Why do I love a forget me not for example?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:18 PM

A list of atheists, mainly for Ron's benefit. Some real evil people here..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

I think I get less and less comfortable with the concept of evil in that way Smokey. There acts that I despise but again in my personal woes have a "there but for the grace of God go I".

Believe me it is incredibly hard when if like me you have found yourself in jail for 30hrs accused of a rape that did not exist (she got 6 months youth detention for lying and I had never met her and I had not had sex with anyone at that time - I was 37 before that came to me and then I get someone with a boyfriend in prison) it is incredibly hard living with "there is no smoke without fire" but these are places I have been.

Evil though, from my very personal stance and these days, I try (and can fail to) blame what I would call the evil one rather than the person. It is hard. Often too hard for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:37 PM

I was being ironic, Jon..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM

And referring to Ron who started the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:47 PM

Why do I love a forget me not for example?

I can tell you why I love a forget-me-not. I have a degree in Botany, and plant taxonomy was one of my strongest subjects. It caused me to study the classification of flowering plants in detail, and, as they are classified largely on their reproductive biology, I got to look at the flowers and fruits of many species very closely. Apart from seeing patterns in plant reproduction which helped me to see evolutionary relationships between species, genera and families, it also got me admiring what I saw as the true essence of beauty, which was form and function in perfect synergy. A lot more, in other words, than seeing pretty colours and shapes in harmony. Later, I went off on my own to search for plants in their own ecosystems, and one day in 1972 (I still have my field diaries) I found the alpine forget-me-not, Myosotis alpestris, one of the rarest of all British plants, in Upper Teesdale. That was the icing on the cake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

Which I understand is the state flower of Alaska, unless that well-known bespectacled hockey-mom has shot 'em all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM

OT but they are beautiful little things aren't the Steve. ?

The Scarlet Pimpernel can be found here and loads of common poppies. However we analyse it, nature can throw up nice things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:21 PM

To further the OT comments and to repeat myself just in case Steve has not read this from me. I wish I'd properly known "Granny Westbury" who died when I was about 7. Certainly not your scientific ways but to know everything in a hedgerow or field was, I believe, something she knew very well and delighted in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 09:31 PM

Songs were another of hers but we have not record Except to say she was not rich but really wanted to and did pay for my mother's piano lessons and I believe did much to help her phyiso education at QE Brum.I do these days wish I knew what she had to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Slag
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 01:55 AM

It might help to first, define your terms and get your thinking organized. Much of what has been said here and on similar threads is the stuff of epistenology. Shared mutual experience might be a good place to find agreement. The sensory universe and its sensed perception by the human beings is the beginning of language which is wholly dependent on shared mutual experience and is evidence of its correctness. From there, find a mutual expression of illusion, delusion and its underlying causes. Define god, God, non-God, states of consciousness, identity etc. You could build a real philosophy.

Or your could just BS, poke at each other, ignore stuff and general cover and recover the ground you've already crossed. or start a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:23 AM

Who's Dave Mc?

It sounds like you agree with me, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 04:43 AM

Dave, I wasn't up to spelling your full name... I'm not sure whether I agreed with you or not as I didn't really understand where you were coming from. Hope I was agreeing with you though.

A fact to me is that I could agree with a non believer or person with different faith (if I have faith...) to mine over some point and disagree with someone who is of the same faith.

Nothing is as simple to me as say we are both Christians so we will agree on everything or he is a Christian and he believes in whatever so we will disagree. May be seeking the same God though.

Hope that makes a fraction of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:10 AM

As I've noted earlier, it's obvious to anybody who does a modicum of research--of course that may exclude some of our dear atheists, who don't want to have their comfortable assumptions disturbed-- that Hitler and Christian churches in Germany did not in fact get along.

The Third Reich pushed as hard as it could to undermine the churches--without stirring up a lot of opposition.    In fact several times it overstepped acceptable limits--even regarding a fearful Catholic community--and had to pull back.

The Nazis tried to fold all Catholic youth groups into the Hitlerjugend.


They carried out "morality" trials, accusing Catholic religious figures of sexual abuse of minors (where have we heard this before?--and it's an easy , damaging,charge, hard to refute regardless of how trumped up it may be in a given case).

In 1935 Hitler declared in Nuernberg that he was not against Christianity in itself, but " we will fight it for the sake of keeping our public life free from those priests who have failed their calling and who should have become politicians rather than clergymen."

And of course he was to determine which priests had thus "failed their calling."

There was an order to remove crucifixes from churches in northern Germany in 1936.   One bishop, Clemens von Galen, resisted this--and encouraged mass protest against it. The Reich backed down.

It's obvious to anybody who does even a bit of research that Hitler treated religion as something either to be exploited or--when that was not an option--opposed and undermined.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 09:34 AM

Ron:
You seem to be repeating yourself without ever responding to others. Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. You're theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. You say Hitler treated religion as something to be exploited. George Bush and company treat religion as something to be exploited, and yet everyone knows that he is also a devout Christian. Is it possible that Hitler treated religion the way politicians always do and that his personal beliefs had nothing to do with it?

6. If killing millions of Jews wasn't religious, what was it?

7. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

John P, I haven't been reading Davies' (I have heard the pro-believer side enough times) posts but having just read yours I might have an inkling of what he is up to.

Do you realize that you have just listed pretty much every anti-christian argument that there is, except pedophile priests, and are defending against those arguments as and atheist. Unless you actually are saved, this is as likely as you will every come to knowing the Christian side in these arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

"everyone knows that he (George W Bush) is also a devout Christian."

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

Well, I agree with you, Dave. Obviously he's not a REAL Christian. But he thinks he is and so do lots of others. In any event, he's certainly not an atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

I don't know about REAL. But other than politically convenient lip service, there is little public evidence that Bush was devout.

Jimmy Carter, maybe, Bush and Reagan, I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

If he says he's Christian, and gets his messages from a Christian version of God (which he has asserted is the case) then clearly he is a Christian. Unless, of course, he does something indefensible, in which case the safe response is, "Oh, but he's not a REAL Christian." I suppose the men who died fighting the Saracens to liberate the Holy Land were perhaps not as real Christians as one might have hoped, nor those who lit the flames around the girls from Salem and Joan of Arc. Maybe they were just misled bipeds or something. There are a lot of those around...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:42 PM

Perhaps on reflection then the fairest way of wording it to avoid "real Christian" is Bush does not match my personal best attempts at reading the bible or my personal best attempts at picturing Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:43 PM

"If he says he's Christian, and gets his messages from a Christian version of God (which he has asserted is the case) then clearly he is a Christian. " Just like Simon Magus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

He is a third generation politician. How much credence can you give what he says?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

it may be dificult to say who is a real christian.it is not difficult to judge that many of those confessing christ have done some appalling things which are totally unlike christ,s example.but many others have been shining examples.
ron-in the interests of fairness,someone suggested cuba as a succesful atheist state.i wondered about albania.i remember reading "Gods smuggler".that was the only communist country where bibles were at that time apparently not wanted by anyone.have you any comments on these states?i dont know enough to decide ,even though i might expect there to be oppression of some sort.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

There was no place for religion in Hitler's ideal society.   And some Catholics, like former Chancellor Bruening,--a conservative, by the way-- realized this.

Cornwell:   p 155

In 1933, Bruening "traveled throughout Germany, reading out reports of physical torture inflicted upon Jews and Social Democrats, warning that Hitler's ultimate goal was to destroy the Church."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:14 PM

Ron:
You seem to be repeating yourself without ever responding to others. Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. You're theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

The idea that Hitler wanted to destroy the church is not true. He wanted to use the church to promulgate his ideas and his minions were rewarded by the Catholic Church and sent to South American countries for protection.

The idea of suggesting that there is a "real" Christian is like interpreting rain by saying it is what you want it to mean without any real meaning whatever. (See Lewis Carrol's Queen who says that her "word" is "what I want it to mean and nothing more." Today, there are Christians who are attempting to subvert the Constitution by claiming that their orthodox view is the correct one and that the Founding Fathers wanted us to live in a Christian theocracy.

The idea that there is a real Christianity is only an opinion and not a fact.

Then we get into ad hominem attacks such as "Bush was an idiot so that his ideas on religion were wrong". The problem is not Bush or the sincerity of what he believed but the actual idea of religion, itself.

As to the "atheists are evil" argument, when are people finally going to put this lie to rest?

I am grateful that these threads continue and love to see them longer and longer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 02:35 PM

Frank from a personal POV, Christ has only brought me hell - some of my own making...

I do not get the Christians are always good and antsiest (while I may believe they are mistaken in believing nothing above us exists) are always bad, We, if the bible was accepted we really come to the parable of the good Samaritan on this point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:49 PM

More on Hitler and Christianity:

The Goebbels Diaries 1939-1941, translated and edited by Fred Taylor:

p 304:

(Hitler) "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity. According to Schopenhauer, Christianity and syphilis have made humanity unhappy and unfree."

That about says it:   that was the parallel for the Nazis:   Christianity and syphilis, the twin plagues.

I wonder how many of our Mudcat atheists would share this view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:54 PM

Give it a rest Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:51 AM

Ron, last chance:

Here's the questions for you that are on the table:

1. Your theory is that there is a link between atheism and atrocity. If so, why aren't I a mass murderer? If not, what's your point?

2. Are you suggesting that great classical composers were less great when writing about non-Christian themes? If so, can you give some examples? If not, why do you try to draw a link between Christianity and great music?

4. Do you really think that all atheists are alike and should be grouped together for the purposes of making a point? Why should anyone pay attention to you when you use bigoted language?

5. And the zinger, of course: why do you think there is any possibility that there are such things as gods? If you think atheists are such idiots, display your great knowledge and reasoning powers for us. Show us your evidence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

Ill attempt #1 John P. The link with atrocity is greed or desires of the flesh. As I stated before I think true reading of the bible and following that ought with love thy neighbour to provide a way out of it and I will add that it is abuse of religion that can cause a problem.


The idea that all non believers are violent/non violent or all Christians are violent/non violent matches no experience in my life. While I personally believe he is our savour we can all get things horribly wrong... and all sometimes do good deeds...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

On point 2, while it proves nothing or makes any music (my own fave when able being in an Irish session) better How did Forster write this or Fanny Crosby write anything at all?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:22 PM

Ill attempt #1 John P. The link with atrocity is greed or desires of the flesh.

Exactly. No need for atheism in the equation.

On point 2, while it proves nothing or makes any music (my own fave when able being in an Irish session) better How did Forster write this or Fanny Crosby write anything at all?

Maybe they were just good at writing music and happened to write on religious themes? Is there any indication that their music would have been less good had they not been writing about religion? Or that religious music in general is "better" than non-religious music because it is inspired by the religious beliefs of the composer?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:44 PM

Qhy this will not post is beyond me...

I do not know or your question re #2 John P. I can say find something special in I heard the voice of Jesus say but say the the Irish tune with no words. The Bank OT Turf can also mean something to me...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:05 PM

Thinking again there John Fanny C did reason her music came from a   belief in God. I as a believer in    something   beyond us exists   can not work it all out but there was something that gave her comfort and writing ability through her blindness. I can not explain though - can only feel something was there for her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:06 PM

"The idea that Hitler wanted to destroy the Church is not true."

Fine.   And what is your evidence-- besides your own wishful thinking?   Your rambling about South America is remarkably pointless--even for a desperate atheist.

The 3rd Reich was as hostile to religion as they dared be without rousing mass protest--as I have already illustrated.    And they blatantly substituted Nazi "saints" for Catholic ones, and Hitler for God--as I have also pointed out.    You can easily tell the attitude of a regime by what is taught the young--and in the 3rd Reich the attitude of the rulers was painfully obvious--except perhaps to Mudcat atheists in deep denial.

Of course it does appear that the #1 rule of the atheist catechism is to conveniently miss reading anything that disturbs the comfortable assumptions an atheist lives by--with the exceptions of Amos and Bill D, who do in fact read posts and have a much more nuanced view of the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:23 PM

Ron, your failure to examine your logic when its fallacies are pointed out to you make you boring and useless on a discussion forum. Since you won't support most of what you've said with any evidence and since your logic is full of fallacies, here is what we know as a result of this thread:

1. There is no evidence of any link between atheism and atrocity. That being the case, claiming that the atrocities committed by atheist dictators had anything to do with whether or not they believed in god is unfounded.

2. There is no evidence of a link between the writing of great music and a belief in god. Therefore, saying that religion "gave us great music" is unfounded.

3. There is no evidence to support the existence of gods. Therefore, a belief that atheism is a bad choice is unfounded.

That's about it, Ron. Your theories are empty. Have a nice, if confused, life.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 12:44 AM

Thinking again, John

1 no as stated before, we can all get things wrong.

2. personal belief would lead me to believe that great music is a gift from God

3. Much personal experience together with my best attempts at reasoning personally supports the existence of a God

4. To repeat.    How you find you God on "non God" is yours alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM

Jon,
great music is a gift from God
Does that include all the great music that wasn't written on religious themes or by devout Christians?

Much personal experience together with my best attempts at reasoning personally supports the existence of a God
I don't have a problem with that -- what I was saying is that Ron's assertion that atheism is stupid is an unfounded conclusion.

How you find you God on "non God" is yours alone.
Completely incomprehensible. What are you trying to say?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:58 AM

Jo(h)ns

I think you each know where the other stands.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 11:48 AM

believing that men are made in the image of God ,i would venture that religion does not have a monopoly on good music though i understand handel claimed divine help with the "messiah".
i,ll go with argent"God gave rock and roll to you"

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM

Regarding this post:

The Goebbels Diaries 1939-1941, translated and edited by Fred Taylor:
p 304:
"(Hitler) "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity. According to Schopenhauer, Christianity and syphilis have made humanity unhappy and unfree."

This is only one side of the story. You should read what Hitler has to say about atheists.
He also invokes a god in Mein Kampf. As to Hitler's position on Christianity or any other religion, can one actually take anything someone as disturbed as Hitler seriously?

Actually, history is fraught with many religious or pseudo-religious leaders who invoke their version of what god is and usually put themselves at the apex of their "movement".
I heartily disagree that there is a definable atheist movement which would be like the proverbial "herding cats". If you actually listen to what Dawkins, Dennet Harris, and Hitchens say about atheism, you would find considerable differences in their points-of-view. Most of the religious attack squad would not take the time to take into consideration what these men have to say on the subject.

In the meantime, attack ads such as "the atheist delusion" offer no concrete examples how atheism is delusional or why a religious belief system is sane.

History is often cherry-picked selectively to support a point of view. But it's the blind man and the elephant. In this case, history is used as a propaganda mechanism.




That about says it:   that was the parallel for the Nazis:   Christianity and syphilis, the twin plagues.

I wonder how many of our Mudcat atheists would share this view.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

John on 1. Yes my personal belief is all great music Christian or otherwise is a gift.

2 We agree on

3, Must have been bad wording on my part but I was using "non God" for atheist and again trying to say in no way can I control another's belief. Hope that is comprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:29 PM

Yes my personal belief is all great music Christian or otherwise is a gift.

Nothing personal, but this attitude that emanates from religious belief absolutely stinks. It ranks as such alongside those ludicrous harvest thanksgiving ceremonies and "grace before meals"-type prayers, where deluded people pray to a totally indolent God to thank him, not for anything he's actually done, but for the products of the blood, sweat and tears of human endeavour (those we can just tax). I note that the thanksgiving prayers don't include mention of the Staphylococcus food-poisoning bugs or the myriad pests and diseases that ravage those wonderful, God-given crops, or for the spoilage organisms that ruin the produce and cause hungry gaps. Never mind gifts. God is the prince of takers-away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

i understand handel claimed divine help with the "messiah".

Handel lied. Prove I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jjon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:03 PM

Could not disagree with you further, Steve. My own relationship[ with changed when I fell in lust with Anwen who was a brilliant concertina player. I;ve not believed music is mt God from those day on. I had to let go of a lot,,,

God is the prince of takers-away.

Not to me, while the way I think of and relate to music has changed, Satan is the prince of taker away.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:49 PM

John. want to give you a tune. Not sure I believe in rebellion these day but have a bit of Paddry Reilly.<

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:37 PM

"You should read what Hitler says about atheists."

Brilliant.

So the question becomes:   just how gullible are atheists?

If you believe what Hitler said in public, I have, as I said, several bridges to sell you.   Would you like your name embossed in gold or silver?    Your choice. I'll give you the account to send your payment to.



And as far as "Mein Kampf"--that was obviously a political manifesto.

A reasonable person--and that, more and more, seems to exclude most atheists-- would look at what Hitler actually did regarding religion. I have given some examples--but there are lots more.

I'm still patiently waiting for any evidence--direct quotes about actions taken by the 3rd Reich which contradict the fact that Hitler's ultimate goal was in the removal of religion from his "utopian" society. He was already well on the way, by substituting Nazi figures for Christian devotions.

Don't bother with quotes from his speeches or Mein Kampf---unless, as I say, you're interested in one of my bridges.   I assure you I can give you a real good deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:38 PM

"...goal was the removal..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:48 PM

I suppose the question boils down to whether atheists have ever heard the word "propaganda" used in connection with Hitler.   Perhaps the concept of propaganda is unknown to atheists--paragons of clear thinking though they are, of course.   (Just ask them.)

If propaganda is a mystery to them, they would be advised to actually read at least one book on the 3rd Reich before further commenting on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:23 AM

And the upshot of all this is...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:57 PM

Yes, Ron. You are redundant. Go over to the irrelevancy thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:14 PM

It makes you wonder why the Pope (JPII?) felt it necessary to apologise to the Jewish people for his church's part in the holocaust, or why the Vatican never banned 'Mein Kampf', or why they helped so many Nazis escape after the war.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." A.H. (letter to Engel 1941)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:20 PM

"...I am a Catholic.."

Well, I suppose we have our answer as to the gullibility of atheists. It appears unlimited.

Sure is interesting that none of our stalwart atheists has come up with an action--as opposed to words---in favor of religion, other than the Nazi-accepted version of it, which-- surprise, surprise-- is identical to Nazism.

And there are lots and lots of actions taken by Nazism against religion---some of which I've already detailed.    But don't worry, I'll be glad to give you more of them. Just have no time tonight.

Quite a few Germans were enthusiastic when Hitler took over--but as I've detailed, many also had reservations or fears.   Virtually all of them who applauded the Machtergreifung lived to regret it--(it was only a question of how long that took).   Some with their lives. Many religious people regretted it long before World War II started--in large part due to the 3rd Reich's attitude towards religion--which became progressively more obvious.

In fact Mudcat atheists are among the few people who seem totally clueless about it.   Gee, I wonder if that is because they have a vested interest in the question.   Nah, that couldn't be it. Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:02 PM

Ron, I'd suggest you give it a rest. For sure I think those that do not believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mistaken. But there are ways of turning people further off rather than on.

I think most of us here agree the roots are really greed and desires of the flesh and religion can be used in a distorted way to encourage wrong things.

Carrying on as you are can only put people further from a belief in God (if that is to be their way) not encourage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:12 PM

I'm afraid you sound like the one with the vested interest, Ron..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

"...I am a Catholic.."

Well, I suppose we have our answer as to the gullibility of atheists. It appears unlimited.

Can you prove that you are not an atheist?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:02 AM

That is an interesting question, Smokey. Personal POV would say I can though have tried am a failure ib all sorts of ways. Personal beleif now which is quite a different thing would sate God gave His only Son who got crucified, The only provable thing is there was a remarkable person at the right time and place.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM

some would even try to deny that jon.but probably accept other less attested history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:07 PM

Ron, try as I might I can't figure out your connection between Hitler and atheism. If you're not saying that he committed atrocities because he was an atheist, then what are you saying? If you are saying he was a monster who also happened to be an atheist, what's the point? You're doing an unusually bad job of making any sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:57 PM

There are alternatives to one form of religion that do not include the atheist response.
For example, "Deism" which was not necessarily a Christian point-of-view. Many signers of the US Constitution were "Deists", not Christians. Thomas Jefferson for example.

Also, Tom Paine. In his "Age of Reason" he decries atheism as a "Deist". He also decries Christianity in the same paper.

Hitler may have had his own brand of religion which would not allow for atheism.
Hitler has made statements against atheism regardless of what one of his underlings said.

To try to divine what Hitler did or didn't espouse in the area of religion has to be equated
with the fact that this was a disturbed dysfunctional madman and can't be taken seriously as to any consistency in his belief patterns.

It is also true that the kirches (churches) functioned rather normally and were not outlawed by Hitler during his despotic reign of terror. Stalin was another matter.

If you measure the behavior historically of atheists compared to Christians or other forms of religion, they come up being rather benign comparatively in terms of the havoc they caused.

When one is imbued with a belief system, any grasping of straws to make their case is inevitable. The more it's defended without proof or actual fact, the more it appears to
border if not be outright fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:52 PM

Frank, I think there is a great difference between wanting to find your personal God and believing there is a real one out there and becoming part of what I think I'll describe as religious cults.

I think from personal trying to understand the bible if one could properly follow it, the former would make you peaceful and loving. The latter can be very dangerous/

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:36 PM

I think there is a great difference between wanting to find your personal God and believing there is a real one out there and becoming part of what I think I'll describe as religious cults.

Very good point indeed, Jon. I'm not very convinced at all about the Bible though, it's far too open to interpretation to be universally useful. Despite it appearing to have some positive and beneficial content, there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM

"there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way"

Almost any document can be viewed in many ways,some honorable, some less so, if you have a reason to interpret and use it as such

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

Fair comment Smokey.

To me, the foundations are love God and love thy neighbour. But can I get that right all the while? No

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Jon, who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:00 PM

Uh? That should be "Those who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate."

Sorry about that, but it illustrates my point :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:12 PM

I do not thik it is a beating up Smokey but I have been down that route.... These days I think it is more just recognising I'm not as smart as I'd like to think I am. It has not resolved my own "God Problems" or cured my drink problems but I think to believe one is not as wise as one might like to think is a step in the right direction.

Hope that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

I hope you don't mind some advice from a stranger, Jon, but concentrate on fixing your drink problem and you'll find many of your troubles behind you. We have to learn from our experiences, and drink can be a big obstacle in that process. Booze is not your friend, it's your enemy. Pack it in, or at least learn to control it with an iron fist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:31 PM

That is almost fine by me Smokwy and I substandard what you are saying - booze just pretends to by your friend but is your enemy is too well understood... Why I get successions of real witnessed events and why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

substandard for understand was not bad above...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

... and yes, you made sense. A bit of humility goes a long way and in moderation is an admirable quality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:04 PM

why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

It's an addiction - if you can't handle it yourself, get professional help. I've watched several good mates drink themselves to death, and it aint pretty. No 'buts', do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

I hope it does not happen to me but I saw it once.

This part duplicates something I posted elsewhere. Poor old Alan. He was a WW11 navigator and could come to the house and declare "there was I, upside down flying my kite in the middle of the night". He came to cricket (he could off spin bowl btw( with us once and attacked cars on Llanwrst Bridge. He once tried to rip lights from Manchester airport runway . He once went to Ullupol then phone mum about ending it all

I'm afraid I fell out badly with him when he made some horrific sexual remarks about mum...

Only 2 locals went to his funeral but he did leave his memorials. A rock garden that may still exist (I live in Norfolk not Wales now) would say to me in memory of Alan. Also he planted some daffodils..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:14 PM

Please make damn sure it doesn't happen to you, Jon. Life's worth more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

My apologies to the thread for this digression.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:38 PM

Yes Smokey. There is nothing more horrible than falling out and feeling there is nothing more you can do for a person. It is actually
worse than just rowing.

We row at home perhaps too often but however badly know to pick up the pieces and try again. We can blow things grand style but...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

dont apologize smokey;encouragement is better than some of the negatives on some posts.

one day at a time jon-with my prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Thanks Pete, it's a shame there aren't more contributors willing to offer a bit of support and encouragement.

As my granny didn't used to say - 'If there's a man overboard, you don't ask whether he's Welsh or not before you chuck him the rope.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

If God exists, that is OK with me. I am not going to rule that out.

If on the other hand there is no God and the believers are deluded, that does not bother me either

But then, why beat up on someone that believes there is a God?

What is the purpose? What does it accomplish? What are you going to convince them of?

What are the believers going to accomplish by arguing with the non believers?

Seems people must have better, more important things to do but argue religion.

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about? Is that natures plan? Part of survival of the fittest?

Whatever you believe in, if it makes you happy, I am happy too.

Shouldn't we all be happy or should we find things to argue about and be pissed off about?

This God / no God thing is a waste of time like the chicken or egg argument.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:47 PM

Well, it looks like it's time for a little quiz.   In fact only one question.

If you are living under a regime, which is more important for you: that regime's talk or its actions?

Clue:   "Talk is cheap."

Another clue ( for some of the slower atheists we seem to have with us on this thread now):

"Actions speak louder..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

What do you think of Shostacovich's music, Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM

Though my spelling be shite...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:58 PM

"Actions speak louder..."

Not over the internet, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

So it appears we have one brilliant Mudcat atheist quoting Hitler:   "I am a Catholic."   And another stellar thinker (again an atheist, of course) saying that because Hitler said he was against atheism, he himself was not an atheist.

Sorry, this is evidence of nothing except the afore-mentioned gullibility of some Mudcat atheists--if that were ever in question.

Good thing said Mudcat atheists were not Germans living in the 3rd Reich--it sounds as if they would be easy marks for Hitler's propaganda.

I note also that even my little one-question quiz (complete with hints) has proven too difficult for the giant intellects of the Mudcat atheists we are honored to have with us.

Yet they claim to be reasonable people relying on logic to deal with issues.   Their grasp of logic evidently was not sufficient for the little quiz.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

sawsaw-sensible post essentially.as a believer i am more interested in sharing my faith than arguing it.i endeavour that to be the case in my contributions on these threads, in answer to atheist arguments

ron-while in broad agreement with your comments it does seem to me that if you expect responses,it might be a good idea to respond yourself to others.

jon-hope you,re doing OK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:17 PM

Ron, you specifically asked for a quote of Hitler declaring his non-atheism which was not from one of his speeches or from 'Mein Kampf' and I gave you one, with no indication as to my opinion of it, as that would not have been relevant. Our opinions obviously differ - try and live with it. Personal insults are counter-productive to any discussion and your opinion of me is as completely and utterly irrelevant as mine of you.

There is no point whatsoever standing on your soapbox and declaring the same old stuff over and over again, no-one is here to have their mind changed. Save your energy for something useful or join in the discussion properly; I'm sure you are a far better man than the impression you are giving.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:38 PM

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about?

Personal belief would say mankind is doomed because our in general disbelief in God and our desires and greed for bad things.

Maybe from an any/non religious POV way to look at things would be to go for a walk in the mountains or on the beach or look in your garden. Then appreciate what is there, what might have been and what messes we can make with nature,

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:50 AM

Most of the back and forth and parallel arguments here, and in similar threads (with similar postings) have been discussed at length and summed up in a multitude of Internet sites, including the one below.

Matthew (whoever he is) has put much of it together in a easy to read format. A read could possibly reduce the number of threads dedicated to the same repeated (I never said tired) arguments   (Just a suggestion, not an argument, though it is possible it could start one). :)


An Introduction to Atheism (1997), by Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

>Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat <

He is gorgeous Jon at least he is something nice to have a look at on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I like to think my cat's an atheist but it's really quite difficult to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:12 PM

I think our cats are mostly believers in their own comfort and tummies...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM

My cat thinks he's God, but I think he's deluded. He plays the part pretty well, though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

LOL John. You know the cat and dog one thats been posted here before?

In brief and I can't find the quote but sort of

dog: my master feeds and cares for me - he must be a God
cat: I can get food and comfort from my humans so I must be a God

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

Dogs look up to people, cats look down on them.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

True Dave. Odd thing is I love them both... Our other current pet Willie Weasels the (female it turned out) ferret is different again.

What is perhaps odder is the while I'd know a cat by their ways, at the same time, I'd know which one we have .once had by their personalties.

Perhaps the same could be said for humans though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:11 PM

Actually, what Hitler said or didn't say is irrelevant to this discussion unless you try to impugn atheism as a sort of nazism which seems to be implied, here. Hitler was a mad man and anything he says must be taken in that context.

The same would be true for anyone impugning atheism as a form of nazism or totalitarianism.

The fact that the Catholic Church helped Nazis is on historical record.

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:53 PM

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

It seems to conclusively indicate that contrary to Ron's belief, Nazi Germany was not an 'atheist state' whether Hitler believed in God or not, and no-one will ever really know that. Only the individual can truly know what they believe, and I don't think that's often as clear-cut as is claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 PM

I'd personally suspect Hitler comes into the agnostic category.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:15 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously. The notion that he was an atheist was propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

I have no wish to start another thread for this, and this was the religion thread near the top.

Just read a New Yorker magazine...well, cartoons.

God is sitting at a desk on a cloud, looking peeved. Hovering at his shoulder is a smallish, teen-age looking angel.

Angel is saying: "Perhaps people would pay more attention to the Lord, if the Lord had a funny blog..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:34 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously

the vicar of Bray is coming to mind

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:05 PM

Yes, Jon... I've always said that if Hitler had won, we'd now all be Catholic, and Catholicism would have taken a few steps back towards mediaeval times in its machinations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:08 PM

But out of curiosity, would you also agree that is a misuse of belief?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:23 PM

Yes, I think most organised religion is a misuse of belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:38 PM

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you say most rather than all. There is a local church near me that is lovely for example. I'll join it one day. Margaret who keeps it going (it's actually COE but would have been shut down by the authorities had she and others not helped with funding) is a bend over backwards to help anyone type and it is communal in a nice way.

I think in more "official places" one can as well as the genuine run into very judgemental holier than thou s and while the latter can be a tempting route, these days, I think it is as mistaken as you can get...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:34 PM

If not closing the door on the possibility that there might be a God makes one sound like a believer, declaring there is no God makes one sound like they are afraid there might be a God.

Why protest the existence of something that does not exist?

Or keep repeating the claim that God does not exist?

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:56 PM

Who's protesting?

If the god I don't believe in existed, the world would be a far better place than it actually is. There are times when the laws of physics are a dreadful inconvenience :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:58 PM

There is lot's I could question sawsawz, eg.

One can find onself in situations where anti-religious jokes are popular but you just once try to defend your belief and you will find "avoid him, he always talks religion" Say an an 20 anti comments to 1 pro comment ratio, the "always is totally illogical but it happens.

I've given up asking why that should be...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:14 AM

There is much none of understand Smokey. The tale of Adam and Eve, original sin or how perfection might have created imperfection is all beyond me. OTOH, I very much believe mankind has a lot to answer for...

From one very very personal point of view I just look around at nature these days and think what could have been. Despite it;s flaws, even our garden COULD *but isn;t* have been the Garden of Eden...

I think some of us who try to believe and deep down do belief can wreck our heads with this sort of stuff...

Hope that makes some sense from my personal POV. Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:33 AM

On that question of "how perfection might have created imperfection," the best explanation I've heard is that we were created incomplete, with free will and infinite potential, so that we might also create.
I like that perspective.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:44 AM

Nice one Joe. This is the wrong place probably but that would lead me to the question why when (as I believe) nothing is impossible can many of us not even (at lest at times,,,) et even the most basics right? My own take would be lack of faith (as opposed to believing something is out there) but can I find faith to that degree?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:54 AM

Well, if you know God exists, why concern yourself with people that do not believe?

And the same goes for people that do not believe.

Bigotry is not being tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Japanese people believe or used to believe that people have 3 "faces", you know how they talk about losing face.

They have one face for the public, One face for their inner circle and one face that nobody sees but them. They keep their true face or beliefs hidden.

Therefore they can respect other peoples beliefs, take a lot abuse, enjoy themselves around thier friends and still feel confident no matter what someone sys about them. It gives them an inner strength.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM

Well, Jon, some of the most creative people have no faith, not even in themselves. They may do remarkable things, but they see themselves constantly on the brink of despair. I do think that believing in what has been given to you, can be a very good tonic for the soul.
And I have always admired your creative side....but I wish you'd get folkinfo back in working order as proof of that wonderful creativity (proving it to yourself is also important).
Sometimes I think it doesn't matter what you believe - it only matters that you believe. If you believe, you open yourself to unknown possibilities. If you refuse to believe, you tie yourself to your current reality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:49 AM

Interesting reply Joe, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

Well, if you know God exists, why concern yourself with people that do not believe?

To know to date is beyond me, I can just strongly believe on that one.

I'm not really sure about the second part. I think one can get tried of hearing one's personal beliefs attacked and feel a need to defend them.

One could ask whether it's simply better to walk away or to allow the comments pass you by though. Now I'm back here, Should I walk away from here as some people will attack religion here? Should I stay silent and see only one side of arguments put forward? Should I (I hope generally in a friendly manner) try to present my views that are in opposition to those who attack religion forward? Should I pass any comment on a religious/non religious thread?

Only one I know is here would be the wrong place for me to start a God thread myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:29 PM

Gleichschaltung was also pushed hard among Protestants--with very revealing results as to the true attitude of the Nazis toward both Protestant and Catholic churches.

William R Shirer, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

p 235:

"The Reverend Martin Niemoeller had personally welcomed the coming to power of the Nazis in 1933.   In that year his autobiography, From U-Boat to Pulpit, had been published. The story of how this submarine commander in the First World War had become a prominent Protestant pastor was singled out for special praise in the Nazi press and became a best-seller."



At the close of his autobiography, he noted his satisfaction that the Nazi revolution had brought about the "national revival" he had fought for for so long.

The "Reich Church" set up by the Nazis soon revealed its nature to Rev Niemoeller.



"German Christians" who were of course by definition pro-Hitler, staged a massive rally in the Sportpalast in Berlin.   The Berlin leader of this group proposed the abandonment of the Old Testament and "the revision of the New Testament, with the teachings of Jesus 'corresponding entirely with the demands of National Socialism.' "

"All pastors were required to take an oath of allegiance to Hitler and institute the Aryan paragraph and exclude converted Jews."

"By the beginning of 1934 the disillusioned Pastor Niemoeller had become the guiding spirit of the minority resistance in both the ' Confessional Church' and the Pastors'
Emergency League".

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:55 PM

Shirer p 238:

"When, in May 1936, it (Niemoeller's group) addressed a courteous but firm memorandum to Hitler protesting against the anti-Christian tendencies of the regime, denouncing the government's anti-Semitism, and demanding an end of State interference in the churches, Frick, the Nazi Minister of the Interior, responded with ruthless action. Hundreds of "Confessional Church' pastors were arrested, one of the signers of the memorandum, Dr Weissler, was murdered in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, the funds of the "Confessional Church' were confiscated, and it was forbidden to make collections."

Hans Kerrl, Hitler's pick for Minister for Church Affairs. spelled it out:

Shirer p 239:

"The Party (Kerrl said) stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity IS National Socialism...Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen (the Catholic bishop of Muenster) have tried to make clear to me that Christianity consists in faith in Christ as the Son of God...That makes me laugh....No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed....True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real Christianity...The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation."


On the first of July, 1937, Dr Niemoeller was arrested and confined to Moabit prison in Berlin.


Some 807 other pastors and leading laymen of the "Confessional Church" were arrested in 1937, and hundreds more in the next couple of years.







So in contrast to the drivel cited by our illustrious Mudcat atheists to assert that Hitler and the 3rd Reich were not aggressively atheistic, the words of Nazi spokesmen against religion were followed up by vicious and continuing persecution of anyone who did not accept "Positive Christianity" AKA Nazism. Which, as I have detailed, also included substituting Hitler for God.

Just as other atheistic states substituted and substitute the leader for God.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:20 AM

On that question of "how perfection might have created imperfection," the best explanation I've heard is that we were created incomplete, with free will and infinite potential, so that we might also create.
I like that perspective.

It's a perspective that appears to leave out evolution. Now where have I heard that before...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

It's a perspective that appears to leave out evolution. Now where have I heard that before...

I don;t really care. Have tried to make friends with you but as a typical atheist... No more need be said...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM

Or maybe it dos. Your preaching is worse than any holier than thou type ///christian and I don't get on with that type either...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:37 PM

Not a "typical atheist", I think. More a typical "holier than thou" type. As in most cases on the internet, the reasonable people are either trying for understanding or just not getting involved. It's always the egotistical that keep trying to win.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

ron-interesting posts,but you have not addressed posts directed to you yet.

jon-i suspect steves referring to me as the resident creationist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

Most of the delusion threads have a trajectory similar to a burst balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

Yea, you are right Jeri, I just allowed myself to get angry a bad mistake on my part... I don't remember for example having any problems with you an atheist and me as attempted Christian over what 2 years of nightly talks on ICQ for example. I still even if I know I should not seem to get drawn into battles to easily... A personal failure of mine ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

Blimey, one of my more anodyne contributions and I have the God posse after me...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Oh and though this has benn posted before. But in attempt to lighten things up.

In my ICQ chats with Jeri, once my computer was playing up I tried to explain what it was and Jeri asked if I'd realised what I'd said. I'd complained about a hard dick (not disc) problem!

Most of our conversations as with any one else's are very private but I'm sure she will not mind me sharing that one again,

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:57 PM

One I hope final comment:

Blimey, one of my more anodyne contributions and I have the God posse after me...

Sounds good but oat leat one of the commentators is herself an atheist so the God Posse after you does not stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:59 PM

Yet another apology for missing name above.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:19 PM

No, I don't mind you sharing that Jon. I'd forgotten about it, and it was funny.

I have too many friends of all religious persuasions to use belief to belittle people. I think it's stupid. A person's intolerance is a better reason to not be a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 08:01 PM

True, Jon, but who's to say that members of the God posse can't be mercenary atheists?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 12:20 AM

That is so novel I can't resist!

While nothing can convince you, I can feel certain that is not the case. They may be believers in tolerance to others with different beliefs but to sell out what they believe in to become part of a God posse - absolutely no way! And Internet wise, I've known (on and off as I've left and come back here a few times...) some of these people for over 10 years now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM

"Should I stay silent and see only one side of arguments put forward?"

If god exists, no amount of comments to the contrary will change that.

Counter arguments will only provoke more contrary comments.

All it can ultimately lead to is the believers and non believers trying to kill each other off until one side prevails.

To me, all these emphatic claims that the other side is wrong only points to the fact that they must not be too sure or they would just keep their beliefs to themselves.

If you were to ask me, I would not say one way or the other. Does that make me bad or good?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

If you were to ask me, I would not say one way or the other. Does that make me bad or good?

Neither. I might believe that those who do not believe in Christ are mistaken but what you ask just makes YOU as YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM

(and IMO you are perfectly entitled to be YOU)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 09:42 PM

It's interesting that those who allege that the 3rd Reich was not an atheist state not only are unwilling to do research but they don't even read the links they themselves provide.

Wiki is not the last word on anything, but if buttressed by other sources it has value. In this case its information is confirmed by many other sources.

The Nuremberg trials revealed not only the persecution of Christian churches in the 3rd Reich but also plans for the future. After all, you will recall the 3rd Reich was to be a 1,000- year Reich.

According to documents procured by William Donovan and publicized at the Nuremberg trials, the Nazis "would have liked to meet this situation (church influence) by complete extirpation of Christianity... "

"Different steps in that persecution, such as the campaign for the suppression of denominational and youth organizations, the campaign against denominational schools, the defamation campaign against the clergy, started on the same day in the whole area of the Reich, and were supported by the entire regimented press, by Nazi Party meetings and by traveling Party speakers."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 10:23 AM

Ron, it is clear that the atrocities of Nazi Germany were caused by Mudcat atheist-bashers. I wonder how long it will take our resident Mudcat atheist-bashers to recognize that? It's interesting that they just keep saying the same deluded things over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:30 PM

i doubt it is deluded john-but it aint dialouge either.

Subject: Pagans In This?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 04:11 PM

Hey, I hain't read all this nor the last such thread-- but from past efforts I found myself wondering recently--

Do pagan gods/beliefs ever get discussed in these messes, or is it always Christians vs atheists and vice versa, and if so, why is that?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

maybe no pagan religious have posted yet?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:52 PM

I think the pagans are very smart - they're going to let the atheists and Christians kill each other off.

Tolerance and imagination and respect and appreciation of the earth seem to be the essence of modern paganism. I've read that monotheistic religions have more of a tendency to be doctrinaire and combative, since their faith allows for one god and no others. I think I'd class atheists with the monotheists from this perspective - their "one god" is "no god," and allows for no others. Actually, I think it's only the fundamentalist monotheists/atheists who are so doctrinaire and combative - and they tend to see all others as doctrinaire and combative and scandalously denying the One Truth.

I find it well-nigh impossible to carry on a reasonable discussion of religion here. Mudcat Doctrine insists that one who professes a religious belief, is responsible for all the misdeeds and odd thinking of all people who profess to have the same faith. Mudcat Doctrine insists that this is not bigotry, but I think otherwise.

I find that the best I can do is say what I don't believe, while others insist that I must believe certain things because I call myself a Catholic Christian. Despite what they think I don't believe in intolerance, I don't believe that women should be subordinate to men, I don't believe in child molestation, I don't believe in combat for any reason. I don't believe in rigid doctrine. But there are many here who insist that of course I must believe all these things, because I call myself a Catholic.

I DO believe in tolerance, imagination, respect, and appreciation of the earth. I DO believe in a God who is "gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in love." (Psalm 145)

Why would anyone choose to believe in anything other than grace, mercy, peace, and love? Personified in one god, many gods, or not personified in a god at all - isn't that what we all should seek? Pursuit of Truth is an illusion, because it rarely allows for the fact that there are many perspectives of the truth - but grace, mercy, peace, and love are universal. Notice that Truth points to a center, and the seeker who has found "truth" is at the center of it all. Those who seek grace, mercy, peace, and love must seek outside themselves. And when and where they find grace, mercy, peace, and love - they will also find real Truth.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 05:45 PM

Mudcat Doctrine insists that one who professes a religious belief, is responsible for all the misdeeds and odd thinking of all people who profess to have the same faith.

Joe, I hope that's not true. I certainly don't feel that way. But then, I find all discussion of the history of religious atrocities completely beside the point in any such discussion.

Why would anyone choose to believe in anything other than grace, mercy, peace, and love?

Exactly! I'm with you on that. Interestingly, if I had to pick a religion it would be paganism. I'm pretty big on the sanctity and holiness of the earth. I only part ways with a lot of pagans when they start talking about gods . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:42 PM

I'm with John on that, Joe. Belief in the way you present it is utterly respectable and valid. Grace, mercy peace and love are all there for the taking in the atheistic and paganistic world too, though. Sadly, many opportunities are lost for taking 'em. It is there in the faith world, but I don't envy your task in having to unpick them from all that doctrine. I've just come straight from watching a documentary about the thousands of stillborn babies who were not allowed by Catholic theology to be buried in consecrated ground, and who now lie in unmarked mass graves outside cemetery perimeter fences and in bogland. Separated after death from their families on earth and then in the afterlife as well by being consigned to limbo (at least the Church has made a little progress there, though the funeral rites for unbaptised babies are still different from those of the baptised). What else but a male-dominated, authoritarian, unchristian organisation such as the Catholic church could come up with such wickedness and cruelty. If I were still religious, the one wicked thing that would cause me to join any religion other than Catholicism is the doctrine of original sin. A God who decrees that for his flock can go and... finish that one yerself!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

" is it always Christians vs atheists"

I've just been reading about the Sea of Faith movement, which as far as I can gather is an atheist body, mainly within the Church of England, and the principal figure involved is Don Cupitt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:02 PM

Steve Shaw says: Grace, mercy, peace, and love are all there for the taking in the atheistic and paganistic world too, though. Exactly, Steve. Didn't I say that? I said, "Personified in one god, many gods, or not personified in a god at all - isn't that what we all should seek?"

No, I can't defend the refusal to bury anyone anywhere, especially not stillborn babies.

As for your comment about doctrine, I think that too many people put doctrine in the wrong place, and become slaves to doctrine or ideology. Doctrine must be subordinate to ideals and principles, not the other way around.

As for original sin, well....I think we're all born into a sinful environment, and it takes superhuman effort to overcome that environment. I think the "original sin" of the United States is the enslavement of Africans and the decimation of Native Americans, the "original sin" of Great Britain is imperialism, and the the "original sin" of Ireland may well be Irish Catholicism. Every nation, every society, every church, every family has its own "original sin."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

Yes you did say it and I should have acknowledged that.

Call me Mr Simple, but my idea of sin is that you are not guilty of it unless you've knowingly committed it. I appreciate your valiant attempt to broaden the concept, but we're talking about something far more specific here. Babies born with souls already besmirched... yep, God certainly works in mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:12 PM

joe-knowing you have a theological degee: can i ask what you think of pauls letters.as i read them ,the principles and practise seem to follow after and as resulting from explanation of doctrine?
i hope you dont think my postings combative even though my position contrasts with yours theologically,and of course with atheism.
i trust that my settled convictions do not constitute an intolerance to others views that oppose my own.

steve-certainly i believe the bible teaches original sin,in the sense of it being inherent in our nature ,though obviously not practised in the womb.i believe that infants that die go straight to a loving God ,holy water or not,and i am surprised that any church would indicate otherwise by its practise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:02 PM

i believe the bible teaches original sin,in the sense of it being inherent in our nature

Perhaps it does, but it's a pretty abhorrent bit of teaching if so. I can't think of anything more innocent or pure in spirit than a new-born baby. I don't see how anyone can argue that sinfulness is inherent in that baby's nature. Setting aside the fact that I'm an atheist for a minute, I have to ask myself whether I could ever accept that teaching under any circumstances. It sounds like another method of capturing and controlling people to me. Tell them they are fatally flawed right from the outset, so much so that heaven is denied for all eternity, and that the only salvation is to join the Catholic club. Well, I suppose it's cheaper than enticing people with introductory free gifts.

I wonder where all those good people are who died before baptism was invented.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM

Well, Steve, that's a more literal explanation of original sin than I'd buy. My thinking is that we are born into an "environment of sin." Kids learn hatred and racism at an early age, despite the best efforts of their parents. I think it's because we all live in an environment that's filled with anger.

There is a tendency to view theological issues as algebraic equations, as simplistic conclusions drawn from a simplifies set of rules and doctrines. Theology is the study of a spiritual perspective of life. Life isn't so cut-and-dried, and neither is theology. The doctrine of original sin doesn't make sense unless you assume that there's a reality behind it - the same goes for all theology: it doesn't make sense unless there's a reality behind it. I think the reality of original sin is our angry world. Most of us would agree that it's difficult to live in this angry world without succumbing to anger ourselves.

Pete, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Paul's letters follow a format that was common in his time. They begin with a greeting, and continue with words of thanks and good wishes for the recipients. Then they move to the main issue of the letter, usually a theological question. In about the second-last chapter of each letter, Paul begins what theologians call a "moral exhortation," which may or may not be related to the theological question addressed in the main part of the letter. These "moral exhortations" give advice on how to live a good life, and I find many of these exhortations to be beautiful and inspiring. The ones I like best are in Ephesians and Colossians, but then right at the end of the exhortation they go into the bit about wives being subject to their husbands and such (I tend to disagree with Paul on these matters. Some people say that Paul was a product of his time. I say he was just wrong, even though I appreciate most other things he had to say). The letters conclude with words of blessing. Then, almost as a postscript, Paul includes interesting little personal remarks and messages to individuals in the community he is addressing - I find these to be very human. At times, it seems that Paul is writing the postscript in his own hand, and the major part of the letter was written by a secretary (amanuensis in Greek).

You'll find that almost every letter attributed to Paul follows this outline, and some of the other New Testament letters follow the same outline. Other New Testament "letters" are more in the form of a sermon.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 03:36 PM

thats understandable steve as you are not christian.no doubt some believers have difficulty accepting it.
im not a catholic and i dont know if you represent their teaching fairly/accurately.i do however believe that salvation only comes through Christ and is for those who repent and believe,but includes infants and any others not reaching a state of accountability.
as for all those good people:no one makes the grade but God saves the humble repentant believers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 07:53 PM

Theology is the study of a spiritual perspective of life.

Mind if I reword that slightly, Joe?

"Theology is a study of a spiritual perspective of life."

Hope you don't mind!

I hear what you say about our angry world and so on, but a new-born baby knows nothing of any anger. Neither is it guilty of anger. And why the apparent assumption that anger is always sinful?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:24 AM

"a new-born baby knows nothing of any anger"

There are some very, very angry new-born babies around, probably because they've been dragged against their will out of the womb.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

thanks joe-very scholarly description of pauls letters,though of course i hold a more literal view of their inspiration;but well worth reading.

steve-i agree that anger is not always sinful since jesus himself exhibited anger where appropriate eg john 2 14ff"temple clearout"

is your part of the country snowbound too?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM

There are some very, very angry new-born babies around, probably because they've been dragged against their will out of the womb

Nice whimsy.

Hardly any snow in north Cornwall, though you don't want to be outdoors for long in that wind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:08 PM

Not a whimsy. Experience as a parent and corroborated by my paediatrician daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 07:53 PM

I really don't want to dwell, but how do you and your paediatrician daughter define "very angry" as it pertains to a tiny baby? Crying accompanied by a furrowed brow, perhaps? And how do you know they were "dragged out" of the womb "against their will?" Your imagination appears to be running riot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:11 PM

Babies react in different ways - crying accompanied by a furrowed brow is quite normal, and not particularly angry. When the baby screams ferociously and refuses to be pacified (and carries this behaviour on well into later life) then anger appears to be an adequate description of their mood. As the child's mother said, "if I'd had him first, he'd have been an only child".

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:29 PM

Sounds more like pain to me. I suggest that further debate on this would be futile.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

Whether one has a Christian belief or not, for respect to those on Mudcat who have a Christian belief, posters pick a time somewhere around the Christmas Holidays to have a voluntary "Christmas Truce" on posting strong views the Atheist and God discussion (though they are currently tame).

It could just be one day (pick any), to limit the physiological impact on posters with such strong views. :)

Just a suggestion for consideration (it takes two to Tango).

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 11:30 AM

Anger is a state of being, whether transiently or chronically. All beings are capable of it. It's part of the emotional spectrum of states of feeling which ranges from complete deathfulness up to exhilerated enthusiasm and serenity. In general it is on the south side of the spectrum, meaning it tends to be more destructive and less truthful than higher states such as boredom or cheerful interest.

There is nothing theological or mystical about it, though.

It does make for very poor learning, which is why exposing infants to it unduly is not a good idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

Whether one has a Christian belief or not, for respect to those on Mudcat who have a Christian belief, posters pick a time somewhere around the Christmas Holidays to have a voluntary "Christmas Truce" on posting strong views the Atheist and God discussion

I couldn't disagree more. Christmas is by far the most appropriate time of all to attack Christianity. After all, Christianity stole the midwinter feast for their own dubious ends, and just look what they've done to it. I'll agree to the truce as soon as Christians hand Christmas back to us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:57 PM

By us presumably you mean pagans - we never used to celebrate Christmas in Scotland because it was a pagan festival. We had New Year which is a purely non-religious festival, though it has plenty of superstitions attached to it. So all I can say is

Have a good Yule.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

It was originally a pagan holiday. The yule log comes from the burning of trees as a superstition to bring back the sun when it went down for the night. That's why we have christmas lights.

Mithras, the Persian sun god was born on the 25th of December of a virgin birth, according to superstitious legend. Jesus was not according to superstitious legend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:05 PM

Oh BTW Merry Mithras.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

bah humbug!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:19 PM

"bah humbug!" - great album. I used to keep a copy in van so I could play the first track whenever I reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 12:44 PM

dont know that album.i was referring to dickens "a christmas carol"
a little playful dig at christmas critics!
the mind boggles as to content of song!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:27 PM

It came out a few years ago on Greentrax G2CD7007 - Tom Lehrer, Loudon Wainwright III, Eric Bogle to name a few. "A humorous alternative to other Christmas Albums!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 10:16 PM

So we've established that not only is atheism the worst thing to ever happen to humanity--thanks to those stalwart atheists Hitler, Stalin, and Mao--but it has also not resulted in any cultural advances, much less cultural achievements.   Always excepting of course, the pinnacle of musical creation which is the body of Frank Zappa's work.

And on top of that, it doesn't even provide much in the way of humor.   Religion on the other hand, has been a wonderful and continuing source for humor.

I just heard yet another sterling contribution to the literature yesterday on Prairie Home Companion--also including Elvis Costello as the "wayward rector.", the Right Rev. Desmond McManness, DD, DVD, DDS, STD, OMG.

Set to a possibly recognizable tune:


I'm slow to anger
Don't covet or lust
No sins of pride, except sometimes I must
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you

The theology's easy
Liturgy too
Just stand up and kneel down, and do what the others do
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you
At St. Michael's we recycle
At St. Clement's we suck lemons
Morning dawns on great white swans on the lawns of St. John's

There's white folk and black
Gay and morose
Some male Anglo-Saxons
But we watch them pretty close
Episcopalian
Saving my love for you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 09:19 AM

we've established . . . .

Ron, since everyone, everybody, all of us, on all sides of the religion question have disagreed with you in the strongest terms, I have to assume you are using the Royal We. That explains a lot.

Do you remember back about four cycles ago when I said that your habit is to make some unsupported comment, ignore all the rebuttals, and then come back a few days later with the same unsupported assertions, again ignoring all attempts to engage you in a conversation about it? Do you really like proving me right over and over?

Why aren't you embarrassed?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

Ron, your beliefs are your own business and we've all heard them now. Ad nauseam repetition is pointless.

For the record, although he was probably a genius I'm not fond of Zappa's music, but I recommend you listen to Shostakovich for an example of music composed by an atheist. The 4th symphony is a fairly accessible start. I don't suppose you will, though..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:36 PM

An interesting study asks whether religious people are happier, and why. (Live Science Journal)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:02 AM

It just shows how deluded they are :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:13 AM

Ron:

I think you are misidentifying causes and correlations. Atheism is not the cause of human tragedies.

It does remove an arbitrary solution to the absurdist quandary of existentialism. But the absurdist quandary is not a big deal, and is simply solved by taking on responsibility as an individual for projecting one's preferred meanings on the world instead of snuffling around like a truffle-pig looking for one that someone else put there.

God is a verbal reflection.   

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:56 PM

interesting link amos.i was not sure if the study indicated that religious friendship was more fulfilling than other networks or not.i was a little surprised that the emphasis was friendship, as it would be belief in Gods acceptance of repentant sinners that would be more to the fore for myself.
perhaps a further study should be done on members of sceptic society or similar!