BS: Why P on anyones Parade?

Subject: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 05:56 AM

Or on their chips or whatever expression you want to choose. Do you know what I mean?

Say I start a thread saying "I realy enjoyed the CD of music from of Die Fledermaus by the Swinton Jazz and Skiffle dance orchestra". I am pretty sure that within minutes someone will come on saying it is absolute crap and should be consigned to the bin.

Now, come on guys, I may be looking for a bit of support, I don't realy know. I am not looking for approval by any means. I will openly admit that I like some pop music (I thought Robbie Williams new album was excelent) and I will freely admit that I do not like some of the elders of folk (eg Norma Waterson). I am not the king of person that would take offence at someone slagging off my tastes. Pretty thick skinned (and headed before someone else says it). I would, however, like to know why they do it.

I would never dream in a million years of, upon overhearing a conversation in a pub where someone says 'I think that Billy Bollockses new album is brilliant', of stepping in and saying 'I think that Billy Bollocks is a load of shite and anyone listening to that rubbish must be tone deaf'. I would never do it online either. Yet dozens of people do exactly that.

Why do they do it? Do they need to feel superior? Are they insecure in what they believe is good? Or is it just bad manners?

Contentious thread maybe but if we steer away from real examples and real people we may be able to discuss it without sinking to the usual mudbath:-) Maybe we can get some good out of it? Reduce the number of arguments? I dunno.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:18 AM

Dave - I am with you all the way on that topic ! There are a number of musical Genres that I do NOT enjoy , and there are a number of performers within the genres that I DO enjoy who I wouldnt cross the street to listen to ! BUT that does not mean that the genre , OR the performer are bad ! Just that I dont like what they do !
I think some people are so far up their own backsides that they have no room in their heads for anything or any body who is NOT on their personal love list !
So we now sit back and see how many people are going to have a pop at us !!

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:20 AM

I think you're fighting human nature here. I agree with you entirely though. I've never been able to see why so many people find it impossible to "Live and let live". A lot of people get very upset, for some reason, when other people have and express different opinions or even have different likes and dislikes.

As far as I'm concerned, I like what I like and don't like other things. That's my choice and my business. By the same token, other people can like what they like and do what they want. Both of these with the proviso that it doesn't impinge on me if I don't want it to and vice versa.

The pagan credo comes to the fore again..."An it harm none, do what you will".

But you won't stop them Dave

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 06:25 AM

I'd also like to know why people open a thread about a sport just to say that they are bored by this sport and never did like it and why they come back days later to say that they are still bored.
Must be the same basic feeling: I hate it when you enjoy something(one) I don't.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 08:12 AM

Dave Polshaw
I would never dream in a million years of, upon overhearing a conversation in a pub where someone says 'I think that Billy Bollockses new album is brilliant', of stepping in and saying 'I think that Billy Bollocks is a load of shite and anyone listening to that rubbish must be tone deaf'. I would never do it online either. Yet dozens of people do exactly that.

Subject: RE: What's so wrong about Barbershop?
From: Dave Polshaw - PM
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 06:31 PM

It's American shite. Nearly as bad as blues and jazz.

End of story.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM

In a word..Control Freaks. In other words, be reasonable, do it my way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:14 AM

Well, if you think that Die Fledermaus by the Swinton Jazz and Skiffle Dance Orchestra is good, you haven't yet heard their recording of the entire "Ring Cycle."

Talk about bringing new depths to Wagner!

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:20 AM

Turn it round, why can't I say I hate something or someone, without someone telling me I'm wrong, taking offence, or feeling they need to defend the person or thing I don't like.
Surely the thing to do is say, 'Well you're welcome to your opinion' but they never do.
Obviously the only opinion I'm entitled to is the one they want me to have!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:31 AM

(I think Dave was being ironic with that Barbershop comment - Dave?)

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment. The issue isn't always simply a matter of taste. Sometimes, someone is so offended by a particular artist or recording that they can't stand to hear them praised. And sometimes there may be some basis for their attitude. For instance, if someone comes on gleefully praising some band for their infectious melodies, pleasing harmonies, etc., but you have been horrified by this band's hate-filled lyrics, you may feel compelled to respond, rather than to just say, oh well, it's all relative ...

Also, there are people here with strong opinions about what constitutes a worthy approach to a particular type of music, and what may threaten that approach - for instance, let's say you see the young inheritors of some long tradition collectively turning their back on it, taking on some completely different tradition, then marketing it as the tradition they have in fact rejected - well, you might be inclined to react to praise for the young'uns doing such a fine job of preserving the old tradition.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who couldn't care less about any of that sort of thing, and can't understand why anyone else would, and ascribe any of their griping to pure bloody-mindedness. Their take on the last example is, it's so wonderful to see these young people throwing themselves into music instead of organized crime that no one has any right to criticize what they are doing.

We're talking about different personality types. Some simply 'enjoy the music or don't enjoy it', and can't understand why anyone would judge it, or pontificate about it. Others can't understand how anyone could enjoy or not enjoy music without thinking seriously about why they respond as they do to it ...

Having said all that - there are those who apparently like to insult others at any opportunity - and the internet provides no end of such opportunities. Nothing to do with music at all, really ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:14 AM

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I think we learn to respect certain posters' opinions and ignore certain other ones'.

Any road up - here's my opinion. The best reason to p on a parade is that it's a really big target. Most blokes have difficulty hitting the toilet bowl so it's nice to hit something for a change. And it makes such a welcome change from playing 'Winster Processional' over and over and over and...

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: jeffp
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:26 AM

If you are not interested in other peoples' opinions, why are you posting on an internet discussion board?

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 10:44 AM

I guess you're a bit upset about your "Rouges Gallery" thread reception & how about "American Blues & Jazz"? Depends on who you're listening to & who's doing the talking.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:13 AM

The way I look at it, Dave, is that the 'Rogues Gallery'
producers pissed all over a musical genre of which I happen
to be particularly fond.

They used the Disney/Depp cache to put out a collection of shit
and pass it off as representative of traditional (and non-traditional)
maritime and nautical music.

It's likely that many of the general public will by one, and only
one, sea music album, and it will be that one. And why would they
buy another? The first one sucked.

It's not pop. It's the worst of the worst folk, with at best
3rd-rate performances by folk performers, and at best 4th-rate
performances of folk by a few pop performers.

If you don't like my opinion, or you disagree with it, fine.

If you want to use that as an excuse to psycho-analyze me or
others who hold such opinions or to imply some personal failing
or issue because they choose to express them (basicaly at your
invitation), feel free to fuck off.

Otherwise we'll have to start a discussion about people who raise
an issue to bait other folks so they can pick them apart personally.

Maybe they do it to feel superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:17 AM

Well at least it's better than being ignored. I've been batting low with some recent threads:

The most recent;

Next to most recent;

and, there was another one, but I can't even remember it or find it, so I guess it's no loss.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:17 AM

If negative criticism is somehow a bad thing, than there's no point at all in reviewing anything. IMO, suggesting that something is bad is just as valid as suggesting something is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:47 AM

If we can't say that any genre ...is a load of shite and anyone listening to that rubbish must be tone deaf..., then we can't discuss rap and hip-hop at all, can we?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:55 AM

Why put an opinion on a thread at all if you do not want to hear anyone else's opinions? Do you put it up there expecting everyone to agree? I don't get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM

I suppose if negative and alternative views are not respected, we'd just have a single post, then a list of "ditto"s and "yeah, I like 'em too"

It IS true that some folks slip from disagreeing with the poster's taste to criticizing the poster ad hominem, and that's too bad....it is well to develop a thick skin if you're gonna take minority views.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 11:59 AM

It seems that a lot of people put opinions in threads so they can see what they think themselves. As a wise child is said to have put it, "How can I know what I think until I hear what I say?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:09 PM

There is what we normally think of as criticism, which can contribute to or stimulate discussion, and then there is something very akin to abuse, which is more likely to foment name-calling or inspire cold silence ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:02 PM

Well spotted meself! I am surprised no-one took me up on it in the thread - I was most disappointed:-) Glad you kept the ':D' in as well, Brian - Hopefuly most people understand what it means?

I thank you so much for answering on here, Greg (B). I did raise this thread because 'BS' is the place to move the discussion we were having above the line. Your explanation of why you hated the CD so much is, in my opinion, far better than your dismissive comment in the first thread. I apologise if that seems to be patronising - it really isn't intended to be. If everyone would explain why they feel the need to call something crap in the first place I am sure the world would be a much better place:-) I would not consider your above comment to be pissing on anyones chips! I would say that your remarks in the other thread were though. Surely I am not the only one that can see the difference am I?

Midchuck - I take it you are not a fan of Eminem or Slim Shady then? I think there is some good in most genres although I do find it difficult to uncover it in some!

jeffp - Who is not interested in someone elses opinion? Pissing on a parade is a far cry from saying 'I personaly don't like this because...'

Anyroads - Off home. Might get back on later before the open mic night but may not. I'll see. I may try Stings version of Blood Red Roses. I'm sure my Mancunian version of a Geordie accent will go down well in Whitley Bay:-) On second thoughts I may not. I do want to be back later after all...

Play nice.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 01:25 PM

Well, if you include a performer's name in the thread title, the thread will be opened, read, and perhaps answered almost exclusively by people who belong to either of two groups:

1) Those who share your enthusiasm for the artist in question, and...

2) Those who dislike him/her/them, and feel the need to complain that anyone would support such tripe.

Folks who are indifferent, or who have never heard of the performer in question, are unlikely to participate at all.

Now, as someone already mentioned, a long string of "dittos" and "me toos" is not likely to be very edifying. A bit of disagreement is really the only way to develop an interesting discussion.

Not saying that said disagreement has to be rude or cruel, mind you. But you really shouldn't expect unanimity of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 03:13 PM

I wouldn't expect uniformity PoppaG. But there is a WORLD of difference between "Dave Polshaw's latest album is crap" and "In my opinion Dave Polshaw's latest album could be improved by the inclusion of the Patagonion nose flute on tracks 97 to 104"

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM

Nothing wrong with negative criticism, but I think what Dave was complaining about was the people who say things like "It's a bunch of Crap", and leave it at that. That's not criticism. Explaining why you don't like something is criticism, but some people don't seem to have the time for that.

I'd love to see the stage version of the skiffle version of Die Fleidermaus> The Ring Cycle would be a bit too much for me to handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 04:50 PM

Spot on Ranger Steve.

I already have the Czardas on the Kazoo. I am wondering whether the 'Albert' referred to is the same one as in Batman and I am probably already too full of Elderflower wine and Sherry to comment on the rest of the Skifera.

Amazing what you can find on the internet. You would never guess I was a cultural enigma (or is it enema) would you?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM

I agree with everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 03:59 AM

I disagree with Cluin.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:16 AM

I agree with both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 09:41 AM

Bugger! That is one of them conflicting logic thingies that makes computers blow up on early sci fi films! What do you call then? Enimas or something?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 03:51 AM

So, in a nutshell then, people do it because it is human nature? I can't realy believe it is in all of us to be hurtful. I guess therefore it is just unthinking and possibly undiplomatic? I suppose I can accept that. Maybe in time people will start thinking before they dismiss something out of hand.

Perhaps we can start right here on mudcat! If we put in the mudcat rules of etiquette (is there such a thing?) that if anyone dislikes something enough to post a negative review or whatever they do so in a helpful manner. Rather than just saying 'It's shit' they could say 'I don't like it because...' It will help the people liking the item/person/cd/film/whatever to understand why others do not share their enthusiasm and it will help the people who don't like it to more possitive.

Then again I suppose it just me and pipe dream of a better world:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:56 AM

I'm in agreement Dave.

I try to think about this kind of thing as I would when dealing with children.

When telling a child that they should/should not do something it is generally more effective to give an explanation of why than just to issue an order. In the main the child is more prepared to heed the advice if given a reason why and less inclined to get sulky or disobedient and go against what is asked.

Same with criticism. If I don't like something I try to work out why. That way it isn't just a gut reaction against something new and unfamiliar and I can, to some degree, justify my opinion to others. That generally leads to more accord when I can agree to disagree on a subject. IMO it is certainly more respectful than just baldly stating that I don't like something or 'it's crap' which tends to come across as 'if you like it you must be stupid' in a lot of cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:20 AM

Oh, come on Dave; get of that high horse to coin a phrase. You enjoy a good scrap. Why else did you throw -

I am going to commit the most heinous crime possible and admit that I don't particularly like Norma Watersons singing...

into the Vashti Bunyan thread if it wasn't to provoke a reaction? I mean, I don't much like Frank Sinatra but I doubt if anybody cares.

When I mildly rose to the bait and suggested that further listening might be rewarded you responded -

And I don't realy give a monkeys whether you believe that the sun shines out of Norma Watersons arse as long as you don't expect me to believe it as well.

Well, excuse me for having an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:35 AM

There is a HUGE difference between 'I don't particulary like' and 'It is crap', Brian. I think Jacqui explained it far better than I.

I would have gone on to say, in addition to Jacqui's post, that worse than the 'if you like it you must be stupid' implication is the implication that some peoples tastes are, in someway, better or worse than others. They are just different, that is all. I think the last line of mine that you quote sums up the postion very well. I don't expect you to like all the stuff I do and I probably won't like all your music.

But when someone starts to throw around phrases like this IS the best or this IS the worst as if it were a fact or when someone implies that that I am in some way inferior to them then, yes, I will enjoy the scrap:-)

And you don't need excusing for having an opinion at all. Just don't believe that the people who have a different one are in any way better or worse than you!

Cheers

Dave

BTW. Glad you have started quoting me. Shows that someone takes some notice:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:58 AM

Here's another quote for you then Dave -

I would very rarely say that anything is rubbish, with odd exception, but rather say that I do not like it. The two generaly mean the same though, again, with the odd exception:-)

Carefully allowed yourself a little wiggle room but, on the whole, if you don't like it, it's rubbish.

Bryan

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:21 AM

How so? I cannot say I NEVER say anything is rubbish - What about rubbish? What am I supposed to call that? I have absolutely no idea what the last half of the quote means - apart from it has a smiley after it so I guess it is a joke. I must admit I AM puzzling myself more and more often nowadays! :-) Can I have it in context please?

I stick by my guns. I would very rarely say that anything is rubbish. I would rather just say I do not like it - Alternatively I have often said (like of Jazz) that I do not understand it. I have made mistakes. Of course I have, as has everyone. I have regretted them as soon as they are realised. All I am asking on this thread is that people at least try to offer the same courtesy.

Why the assasination attempt for that? Oh, and apologies for spelling your name with an i instead of a y.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:33 AM

If I say that Frank Sinatra is over rated, that's the truth. He IS over rated. However, when someone on this forum a while back commented that Tommy Makem was a "plodding lyricist", that rose my hackles. I took it as a personal insult and judged him dead wrong.
It's human nature. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 08:41 AM

And, sadly, they are both united now, Kendall:-( But I guess it is where we all end up in the end. I suppose this thread is just a little bit of trying to make the journey more pleasant. I think your two examples would have both been more palletable if proceded by 'in my opinion' and followed by a 'because...'. There are Sinatra fans who would dispute your absolte I guess.

Love your last line - Is it original?

D.

BTW - When are back over here?

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:06 AM

So, Dave, you don't feel that when I expressed the honest opinion that Shirley Collins and Sandy Denny were superior to Vashti Bunyan your response that I should "get off my high horse" might have been considered a little discourteous?

When I suggested that further listening might help you appreciate Norma Waterson, wasn't your "sun shines out of her arse" response just a trifle rude?

Can I have an opinion too please, Dave?

I have absolutely no idea what the last half of the quote means

Well, if you don't know what you're talking about....

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 09:49 AM

I do believe it was an honest opinion and you are well entitled to it, Bryan, but if I may quote you directly your full post was

I'm not familiar with most of the people on Joe's list, but I think that if you listen to Sandy Denny and Shirley Collins, you'll never want to hear Vashti Bunyan again.

Well, sorry if I offended you with my come back and apologies in advance if you take offence again but that just comes across as pretentious nonsense and that is what the high horse comment is all about. How do you know that the other correspondant hod NOT listened to Denny and Collins and still preffered Bunyan? Why the assumption that their tastes SHOULD correspond with yours?   Why on earth do you suggest that your preferences are so good that all else falls into insignificance?

Instead, what would have been wrong with just saying that you prefered the former two to the latter one and going on to tell them why? Far more civil and far more illuminating for the other correspondants involved.

As to the 'sun shining' comment. I said earlier, as soon as I discover I have made a mistake I regret it. You have only just told me you found it rude so I now apologise. I am quite surprised you found it rude I must say. I really DO believe that the sun shines out of Ian Andersons arse (Tull not fRoots) and I don't expect you to share that view. I would be quite happy with anyone saying so. Maybe it is just a turn of phrase, commonly used in Salford, that can be misconstrued. Explain to me how it is rude and I shall endevour to restrict my use of it to my home town. Can't guarantee but I will try:-)

I really don't know what I meant in the latter bit. The words are all English but the order seems to defy logic. I put it down to a senior moment and if you wan't to take the piss for that then please feel free.

Finaly, I guess the answer to my question about an assasination atempt is that I seriously offended you in that particular post. If so - please continue until you feel better. But I will continue a spirited defence and enjoy the scrap on the way!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 10:18 AM

BTW - Is it a slack week at work for you as well? :-)

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 11:10 AM

Dave Polshaw

How do you know that the other correspondant hod NOT listened to Denny and Collins and still preffered Bunyan?

Well maybe that was a little hard on Heart+ but I must admit I find it a difficult concept.

When the thread started, I had a listen to Vashti Bunyan on YouTube to find out what was supposed to be so wonderful. I was deeply underimpressed but didn't say anything. Only when Joe Offer posted a list of "names of similar artists" which included Shirley Collins and Sandy Denny did I react. Imagine how you would have reacted if someone said "Well, if you like the Wombles Christmas Song you'll probably like Ian Anderson who is very much the same.".

And then, all I did was suggest that people listen to them and make their own judgement.

Likewise with Norma Waterson. I merely suggested that further listening might be rewarded. You seemed to take this as forcing my opinions on you and flaunting my superiority. A slight over reaction I feel.

Missing Tull today because I don't get to Wickham till tomorrow where we're billed as "and many many more". I wonder if they're as good as when I last saw them 35 years ago.

Work? WORK! Now you have insulted me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Crazy_Man_Michael (inactive)
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 12:26 PM

"if you listen to Sandy Denny and Shirley Collins, you'll never want to hear Vashti Bunyan again"

I'm open minded enough to be able to listen to all three, comfortably.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 02:35 PM

Interesting thoughts here....I guess it comes down to, "Those who can do...those who can't - carp!"

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 06:26 PM

Nice one, Waddon Pete:-) One of my favourite sound bites is 'those who can, do. Those who can't, review'. I review as much as than I do so I tar myself with the same brush! But then again I do a fair bit as well so I claim mitigating circumstances;-)

OK - Bryan. Have we learned anything? Will you consider whether the comments you make are patronising or not? Id so I will certainly not assume that 'the sun shines out of XXXX's arse' is NOT a universaly accepted compliment!

Can we all agree that pissing on someone elses chips is NOT a good idea and we will try to avoid it in future?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Aug 07 - 07:05 PM

Dave Polshaw

Can we all agree that pissing on someone elses chips is NOT a good idea and we will try to avoid it in future?

Cut the crap Dave. You give as good as you get. Why did you say "I am going to commit the most heinous crime possible and admit that I don't particularly like Norma Watersons singing..." in the middle of a thread about Vashti Bunyan if you didn't mean to be provocative? I think my response was pretty mild considering.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:59 AM

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, Bryan. I would not consider 'I do not like...' to be pissing on the chips. However, '...is crap', would indeed be redering anothers fries inedible. I am sure it must be me - no one else seems to make the distinction. Perhaps I should have said 'I think Norma Waterson is very good but I, personaly, do not like her singing style'. Would that be better? If so could you ever bring yourself to agree that some people may think Vashti Bunyan is a good as your favourites and that their views are not necessarily any worse than yours?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:00 PM

Can I ask another question of both Bryan and the general populous. When you hear something you do not like, but it is obvious other people do, do you ever consider that it may be something in you rather than something in the music that is flawed? I do. Maybe that is why I do not like criticism without reason. I do not like a lot of Jazz and Opera and, as has been pointed out, I have admitted that I do not particulary like Norma Watersons style of singing. No problem, I'm sure she doesn't like mine. I do know however that lots of these things are good. But I Still don't like them.

If you are in the same position do you never wonder why you don't like them and why other people do? I have been hauled to task for saying I don't like Norma - But I have also said that she is good. She must be because so many people tell me so! I now have a dichotomy. I don't like something that must be good! Much in the same way that as a kid I didn't like the cod liver oil, even though I knew it was good for me:-) Maybe I just never grew up. Perhaps I have not got adult tastes? But should I be castigated for that? Should anyone?

Back to the opening question, whether I am guilty of the same thing or not doesn't matter. Is it right to criticise other peoples tastes without explaining why you think something else is better. Or, in other words, Why P on anyones Parade?

Cheers

Dave

PS - Know you may be at Wickham, Bryan. Lucky Bastard:-) When you get back will do for the reply. I'll endevour to keep the ol' thread afloat.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Aug 07 - 05:22 PM

Dave - much the same can be said for any dislike. I don't like chocolate- can't stand the taste of the stuff - but I've almost come to blows with one person who effectively called me a liar and just couldn't understand that my tastebuds were not attuned to that particular taste. I still get people saying 'how could you not like chocolate?'. As a child I was in constant battle with my father over milk and coffee. I could not drink them and he could never understand why I didn't like them.

I've learned, from personal experience, that my likes and dislikes are not shared by the rest of the population. I hope that has made me more tolerant of other peoples views on music, food et al. Maybe we all need to have a little more tolerance and understanding in that area. I try not to react when someone ridicules my opinion - basically, I know how I feel - if someone else takes offence at my opinion that is their problem, not mine. I see no need to defend my own viewpoint in most things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:37 AM

Funny you should say that, J. I cannot say I dislike chocolate but I can take it or leave it - I tend to use it as an occasional energy booster rather than for the taste. Maybe it is something to do with serotnin levels that we are in agreement while other people hold opposing views? Perhaps we should munch away on a couple of Yorkies to see if our views change:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 10:46 AM

I daren't even think about eating chocolate - the taste puts me off first and the uppers in chocolate leave me high for about 36 hours, with the corresponding hangover. Believe me, that's enough aversion therapy to leep me clear of the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 04 Aug 07 - 11:45 AM

Dave, I must get that record!

RtS
(Threatening to arrange the 1812 overture for kazoo and washboard)

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 04:31 AM

Refreshing the thread in anticipation of Bryans return:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 05:49 AM

Dave Polshaw

Refreshing the thread in anticipation of Bryans return:-)

Good grief! I've founded a religion.

Why pick on me, Dave, just because I'm the only one bothering to engage in this?

First, I have never (at least, not on Mudcat) said anyone is crap. You may be confusing me with things said on the Rougue's Gallery thread which I haven't contributed to.

Second, I am not saying Vashti Bunyan is "good but not to my taste", I'm saying she isn't very good. She's not that bad either but not in the same league, by a very long way, as Sandy Denny or Shirley Collins with whom she was compared. She sounds like someone who has heard Joni Mitchell and thought "I could do that". She can't. Her voice cracks in unsuitable places and she completely fails to get some low notes. I know singers who just do their regular floor spot in the folk clubs who are better. She has no emotional engagement with her songs because there is nothing to engage with. If she had some decent material, she might blossom. My original "if you listen to Sandy Denny and Shirley Collins" was not to attack VB but to defend two great artists against a slur.

As for your "I am going to commit the most heinous crime possible and admit that I don't particularly like Norma Watersons singing...", it was cleary intended as a wind up so I think maybe you should get off your high horse. (And give her another listen; you really might find it's worth it.)

Like chocolate. Don't like cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: GUEST,TheSnail
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:19 AM

Oh dear. Someone eat my cookie. That last guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:36 AM

I guess the above is Bryan sans biscuit?

You are quite right that you are the only one bothering to engage but I don't really see that I am 'picking on you'. Am I? You address specific points to me. In bold type at that! So I am replying directly. We could of course do it by PM but that would be pretty boring for anyone else who want's to see what a argumentative sod I can be when I set my mind to it;-)

Your first and second posts on this thread was to try and prove that I have occasionaly 'P'd on someones Parade'. Fair enough - I have. Does that mean I cannot say it is wrong? I have often had to much to drink as well but I still know it is a bad thing to do. Your opening posts were all about trying to discredit the author rather than the argument so please excuse me if I get rather defensive.

It was not my intention at all to discuss who is good, bad or ugly so apologies for allowing myself to be drawn down that route. Ditto for allowing the argument degrade into a who did what match. It does not matter whether I believe that Sid Vicious had the sweetest voice in the world and Pavarotti cannot sing for toffee. I don't believe either btw in case someone decides to take me seriously. Nor does it matter that I have made comments which undoubtably can be seen as a slur on a particular artist and may offend other peoples sensibilities.

All I am saying is that it is wrong to simply state 'such and such is crap'. I find it perfectly acceptable to say 'I do not like ... because' or '... is not to my own tastes' If I have used phrases that others have taken offense at before then, fair enough, tell me about it and I will firstly apologise and then, more than likely, explain what I really meant. When responding to threads, particularly when heated, my turn of phrase may sometimes stray but in the main I will try to keep civil and objective.

Find as many examples of me P'ing on a parade as you like. It still does not excuse it. I will endevour to keep parades dry in future and if that puts me on a high horse - fine. The view is particularly good from up here:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:51 AM

Got my cookie back!!!

Don't think this is going anywhere. All I'm saying Dave is that you should put your own house in order before demanding better behaviour from others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:13 AM

Well done that man!

I agree - It isn't.

Shouldn't everyone put their own house in order? From us prolls to our illustrious leaders in Westminster. Why highlight one persons bad behavior to excuse someone elses?

I have never demanded anything from anyone, have I? Examples please.

Not being sidetracked again though. All I have is a very simple questions. Why P on anyones parade?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:16 AM

Why P on anyones parade?

I don't know Dave. You tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 08:03 AM

I wouldn't have asked the question if I knew!

Back on the second of August I summed up the only answers I had as follows -

So, in a nutshell then, people do it because it is human nature? I can't realy believe it is in all of us to be hurtful. I guess therefore it is just unthinking and possibly undiplomatic? I suppose I can accept that. Maybe in time people will start thinking before they dismiss something out of hand.

I don't recall anyone coming up with anything further to add since and I don't think it has been denied anywhere. So, do we have a definitive answer?

Cheers

Dave

PS - Forgot to ask. How was Wickham? Get to see the inimitable Mr A?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:17 PM

Hi Dave (There's only us left).

So, do we have a definitive answer?

The reasons that you have given so far (or that have been given on your behalf) are -

You were being ironic,
You were having a senior moment,
"I have often had to much to drink"

I think one or a combination of those probably covers all situations.

Didn't get to Wickham till Friday afternoon so missed Tull on Thursday night. Missed The Spooky Men as well which was a pity. The Kathryn Tickell Band, Eliza Carthy and the Ratcatchers, Les Barker, Cherish the Ladies, the Mike West Band all brilliant. The rest a bit too rocky for my taste although it was interesting that the Saw Doctors who were a good old fashioned rock band realised that you don't need to turn the bass up so you can feel it through your feet a quarter of a mile away.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:33 AM

It's a hell of a good line up isn't it though! I think I am only going to manage Swinton this year so I won't see too much. Unless I manage a couple of days at Fylde - rain permitting! Maybe Tull will be at Manchester again soon and, hopefuly, get to see Maddy Prior in 'Span or the Carnival Band at Christmas.

I think we can answer the thread question with all those reasons and, maybe, pure cussedness! Human nature could be an enveloping phrase for all of them I guess:-) At least it isn't, often, spite or maliciousness. I hope human nature is, generaly, better than that.

I have certainly had food for thought and will, hopefully, explain the whys and wherefores of why I do or do not like something better in future. I doubt it will catch on universaly but, as they say at Tescos, every little helps:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 04:38 AM

Oh - BTW - an interesting comparison using your comment about the Saw Doctors - I only saw them once, at the Manchester Apollo, and thought they were OK but too loud! Funnily enough, at Fylde, I saw the Albion band who who were equaly loud but, with Mr Hutchins influence, the bass WAS rattling my fillings. I enjoyed that more! Just shows - one mans meat etc:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:47 PM

Everybody has grumpy days.

And if you're holding your parade in a free internet forum, you really shouldn't be surprised. It's like standing with your eyes cl;osed and legs apart at a crotch-kicking contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 05:16 PM

I think we've hammered this one pretty flat. Basically, people will say things on the internet that they wouldn't dream of saying face to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Why P on anyones Parade?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:36 PM

It's like standing with your eyes cl;osed and legs apart at a crotch-kicking contest.

Have you been watching what I do for a living, Cluin?

:D