Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 12:49 PM

so why were the branches disbanded? and wwere the reasons correct ones and what was the membership in 1972, and what is the membership in 2012

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: treewind
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 01:50 PM

"It would be interesting to discover why Suffolk Folk decided to become independent of the Society"
It would. I wasn't involved in Suffolk Folk when that happened, and I'm not sure whether the decision was made by the regional group or by the EFDSS centrally. I may try to find out...

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM

The answers being asked for here are mostly due to historical factors. Like many similar societies involved in preservation of heritage, in the past the failure to inspire a healthy age-spread of participants was the cause of the demise of the regional organisations. They were largely run and peopled by an ageing group of cliquey dancers and when in the early days of the revival young folk club people tried to get involved in many cases this was resisted. Now most of these ageing members have passed on and there is a large generation gap between the younger enthusiasts who run their own things without the help of EFDSS and any of the codgers left. This of course is a gross generalisation and there were many exceptions on a regional level.

If you want to read about the EFDSS wars of the 70s and 80s I'm sure there must be other threads on this.

The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved. The many new people brought in over the past 10 years are trying really hard to do this after many years of neglect.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 03:03 PM

I hate the idea of even one penny being spent on a load of consultants paid to come up with some sparkling new name.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 03:04 PM

The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved.
not just youngsters but people of my age too, i have been folking away for many years regardless of efdss, about 30 years, playing clubs festivals, I even played in a band with John and Katie Howson[recent recipients of EFDSS gold badge] though it appears myself Sue Weir and Paddy Butcher have been airbrushed from their history.
When John and Katie, first arrived in Suffolk for a couple of years we all[ paddy john, katie, jan butcher, sue weir, Dick Miles] played in a band called The Suffolk Bell and Horseshoe band, Sue and I later played in a second band with John and Katie, none of this folking was in anyway connected to the EFDSS.
Congratulations to John and Katie for their EFDSS GOLD BADGE.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 03:58 PM

Dick, I think John and Katie have contributed much more to folk music than playing in a band or even several bands. Membership of EFDSS is not a requirement for being awarded the gold badge.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 04:16 PM

The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved.

A friend of mine who is on the executive of another folk-related body had a different take on this. So what if the organization and its committee are all old codgers? Young people don't join societies, old codgers do. But there a steady supply of new old codgers. At some point, everybody starts wearing tweed and looking for a society to join. There will always be enough old codgers to run things.

Larry Niven constructed an entire science-fictional interplanetary culture around this idea.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM

Very true, Jack.
The younger ones are so busy chipping away at the coalface to worry about the organisation and the boring background details.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 04:56 PM

First, the last thing that anything needs is a bunch of managementspeak.

Second, an organisation needs focus. I don't much mind if it's "English" or "British" although I prefer English as it's what interests me. But I have a little bell going off about a historical merger that did spread the net across GB so maybe it should be British.

Third, thanks to a bunch of wankers without access to a dictionary the public perception among the ignorant (as CS said) is that "folk" is Mumford and Sons and some tag is needed to distinguish the single malt from the blend. I'd like to reclaim "folk" since it correlates with other folk arts and AFAIK there is no misuse of the term "folk" in folk dance.

Fourth, what nearly destroyed the EFDSS was DEAFASS - not so much Morris and the re-invented Border Morris and re-invented Molly as Playford. The feet that were nimble go carefully now. Oh, and compulsory Scottish dancing in schools. Who can think of the Gay Gordons or the Eightsome Reel without wincing? But sex sells. So Ceilidh and E-Ceilidh needs to be accommodated (much as I hate the central European flavour of say Whapweasel).

Fifth - without music and song there will be no dance.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 04:57 PM

Steve, I did not say that John and Katies contributions to folk music was restricted to playing in a few bands, that is just your misinterpretation of what I said.I mentioned it because their contribution is an example of people whose work has existed, like mine and many others whose" folking"has existed regardless of the EFDSS.
Neither did I say that membership of EFDSS was a requirement for a gold badge.
Steve, could you do me a favour? read my posts more carefully,and stop drawing hasty conclusions from my posts , thankyou

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 06:08 PM

Dick,
I wasn't having a go at you. There are lots of people on Mudcat who will never have heard of John and Katie and who don't know much about the EFDSS. I was just clarifying.

You did very well if you managed your singing and playing without direct or indirect use of EFDSS publications, recordings and other things that derive from the archives.

Personally my introduction to longsword and country dancing and playing in a band was being taught by Kathy Mitchell who was a big noise in EFDSS in our area from before I was born. Even as a young lad I made a couple of pilgrimages to C#H to listen to recordings of local singers, before I started collecting myself. I learnt songs from such publications as Marrowbones before digging out old EFDSS books from the library.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 06:21 PM

Second, an organisation needs focus. I don't much mind if it's "English" or "British" although I prefer English as it's what interests me. But I have a little bell going off about a historical merger that did spread the net across GB so maybe it should be British.

That would go down about as well in Wales and Scotland as the first three King Edwards put together.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM

You did very well if you managed your singing and playing without direct or indirect use of EFDSS publications, recordings and other things that derive from the archives.
I have not retired[do instead of did].
Steve,correction, since you seem hellbent on being pedantic, 99 .9 per cent had no connection with the EFDSS,very very little owed itself IN THE WAY OF RECORDINGS AND PUBLICATIONS to the EFDSS.
I didnt have to go to c sharphouse to hear traditional singers, I lived in Suffolk.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: johnadams
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 08:37 PM

Dick,

John and Katie Howson were awarded their Gold Badges for their enormous contribution to folk music - as collectors, innovators, organisers and music publishers. Connection to or influence by the Society is never a limiting factor. On occasion, Gold Badge awards have been offered to people who have never even heard of the EFDSS.




I don't much understand this debate. The EFDSS has improved its ability to meet its stated aims and has gained some credibility in the arts world - enough to be granted half a million quid to get on with a good part of the job. The anonymous Commander Crabbe's mealy mouthed jibes about begging bowls are irrelevant as are his ill considered interpretations of the aims and objectives. I spent ten years on the National Council along with people like Paul Davenport (who posted earlier) trying to improve the Society's working practices and financial position and when we handed the baton over, our successors made a bloody good job of making things even better. Hurrah!

For sure there are issues still to be addressed, regionality and London-centricity being a big one, but the Society is building up from the very low base it found itself on a couple of decades ago. It's not easy and the solutions are not to be found in the magic wands that some posters seem to think exist. It's hard work and consists of step after difficult step.

As to Selby's original question about changing the name, I suggested to council a decade ago that 'Folk England' would be a good brand to adopt - one which would be inclusive of adopted cultures where 'English' is not. Steve Heap beat us to it with Folk Arts England. Although the Society eventually inherited FAE's Arts Council funding it hasn't inherited the name. So EFDSS it is and it's probably better to stick with it for a while, especially as it has a growing credibility with the funders.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:23 AM

John,for gods sake, I never said anything about connection of influence.
neither did i say they did not deserve the badge, however, if we are going to be accurate they are not innovators,they are collectors, organisers and publishers., of course they deserve a gold badger
when I use the word innovator I would use it to describe people like davy graham, or people like peadar long , or sue weir, or peter bond who introduced the clarinet and bass clarinet, or people like sue harris who introduced the oboe,or pyewackett who introduced the bassoon into english folk music

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:23 AM

sorry gold badge, but i am sure they deserve a gold badger too

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:35 AM

Correction,Sue Weir NOT PETERBOND introduced the bass clarinet into English folk music

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: johnadams
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:46 AM

Dick, I wasn't sure quite what you were saying as it wasn't entirely clear. I don't think anybody would begrudge John and Katy their awards, certainly not you, but I'm still not understanding your point. The EFDSS has an award which recognises excellence and they got it.

And _I'd_ give them a Gold Badger if such an animal existed! :-)


I think they ARE innovators. They have innovated projects which have had a great deal of effect on communities outside the general folk scene and connected those communities with their local historical music in a way which nobody else did before (excepting of course that there's nothing actually new under the sun).

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: nickp
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:56 AM

@Jack Campin - dawn is a bit too early for banjos whether they have resonators on the back or not ... for interest the total membership of the British Bluegrass crowd and the Friends of American Old Time Music and Dance (of which I am a member) is probably close to 800 maximum. And I guess both organisations are fairly introvert for the non-member enthusiast unless they happen to be handy with the internet or pick up on a suitable session.

Ok folks, back to the EFSS plot...

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:58 AM

OK,I was using the word innovator in a musical sense, I take your point, and yes they deserve a gold badger too.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 06:33 AM

PS How many folksingers does it take to change a lightbulb ?
Five.
One to change it, four to sing in harmony with concertina accompaniment how much better the old incandescent filament bulbs were.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 06:51 AM

I had many good times in Suffolk pubs with john and katie and ted chaplin, charlie stringer and the rest.
I remember one particular occasion at a pub in Earl Soham when Squire Tony Harvey [ a fine singer himself], turned up,with his horse and cab, and insisted i had to sing for him on his way home in his horse and cab, so i sang away, he insisted on giving me fifty pounds a meal and a bottle of whisky, he was a real gentleman,
sorry to digress, it has nothing to do with EFDSS and gold badgers, and happened completely out of the remit of the EFDSS,EFDSS were undoubtedly enjoying their genteel tea time dances in c#house whilst people like me were having the pleasure of being locked in suffolk pubs with traditional singers., so Steve I didnt need to do much ferreting about in c#house, althougn I confess i went there once and encountered the charming Diane Easby.

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

Once again someone [ selby ] has created a controversy where none exists, the sole point being to start an arguement.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: selby
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 07:00 AM

As the person creating the thread I think that this discussion has run its course there has been good points from both sides of the argument and I thank all the contributors for that.
I always wanted to get a feel of wether the EFDSS was for me and if there was something I was not aware off. Sadly it is not for me at the moment, that does not mean i will not support or encourage the organisation. I hope someone from the organisation has seen this and although a very small percentage have discussed the EFDSS I believe there is one really strong point that does require looking at and that is the London perception.
I would like to see at Festivals the EFDSS actively recruiting by at very least posters or better still a stall.
As the landlord would shout to bring a nights worth of good discussion between friends
to an end
TIME LADIES AND GENTLEMEN PLEASE!!!!!!!!
Keith

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Michael
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM

And no; we are not having a lock in!

Mike

Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 10 Apr 12 - 05:52 PM

John

My name's Chris Coulter.

CC