EFDSS and competitions

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:45 AM

Oh dear. Here we go again. How come every time someone opens a thread about the EFDSS it turns into a shouting match about Comhaltas.

Still, while I'm here...

Martin, I'm not sure about 'Parish Rivalry' having a lot to do with music. Football or hurling, perhaps, but if that were the case you wouldn't expect people to travel to play at sessions, which they have been doing for years.

I agree that traditional music isn't about being the winner or the loser at the fleadh, but the great thing about the fleadhanna is the social side. Kids (and adults) form and rekindle lifelong friendships. I don't know that EFDSS provides that opportunity.

I've got a lot of time for Jim Carroll but his attitude seems to be 'Comhaltas is corrupt and who needs it anyway'. On the first point, maybe some individuals are - I don't know and I haven't seen any information on this thread or any other that has conviced me one way or the other. On the second point, well, yes, Irish music can get along perfectly well at the moment without it - Comhaltas is no longer the only game in town and the only point of entry into the music for those who want to learn it. This wasn't always the case, however.

Lately I've been looking hard at the Scottish Feisean movement. This, it seems to me, to be one way forward without the excesses and obsession with form, style or 'correctness' that you get in both Comhaltas and some areas on English music. I was at the London Feis in September 2007 and it was brilliant. No competitions, no adjudications, just the chance to learn and play music with people from all sorts of backgrounds united by their love of it, without all the baggage we sometimes carry round with us in Comhaltas.

There are also feisean throughout the year in Scotland, including junior feisean. The London event comprised lessons, workshops, a ceili, a concert and a dedicated 'slow session' where everyone (including the tutors) played sets at a slower pace to give everyone the chance to be included. It was the best weekend's music I'd had for years and I'd recommend it to anyone. Also, check out www.feisean.org.

For me, as a Comhaltas branch chairman, this is increasingly looking like the way to go and we're making preliminary plans at the moment to hold something similar in the North-West of England next summer - early days yet, though - with the intention of encompassing both Scottish and Irish traditions, bearing in mind the region's proximity to the North of Ireland (which sends hundreds of students to the North-West of England each year). I'll let you know.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:13 AM

Chris B (Born Again Scouser):maybe if you are having an open and welcoming trditional music event in the northwest of England, you should consider involving the musical traditions of the northwest of England as well? Especially as they are closely linked with those of Ireland and Scotland(obviously).We have a fantastic array of fiddle tunes, you know.Several thousand were collected in the area, and I feel you would enjoy welcoming them.(Non-competitively, of course!).

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:35 AM

Born again Scouser,
Just to set the record straight
"Comhaltas is corrupt and who needs it anyway'"
This is not my attitude to Comhaltas - Irish music needs all the friends it can get, and I have the deepest respect for the work carried out by branches such as your own, and for the rank-and-file membership who have kept the music alive when it could easily have disappeared. My antipathy towards CCE is purely reserved for a leadership which I believe has treated such branches and such people with contempt.
My first introduction was through the branches and anything I might know about the music came from such people. The first people we recorded here in Ireland were founder members of Comhaltas - they are the ones who inspired us to carry out the collecting we did, and they were the ones who were largely responsible for us taking the decision to live here.
I was part of the London Branch which was expelled for not obeying a political directive, and we have just seen similar behaviour with regard to Clontarf Branch - surely nobody can be happy with what has happened there and how it has been handled (I don't really expect an answer to this one).
My present attitude to CCE was summed up perfectly by Martin Ryan's posting on 31st July.
My concern here is on a question which has been raised on numerous occasions on this forum - that of competitions.
When I lived in London I saw the the initiative of players stifled and the heart ripped out of the music in order to please adjudicators. I saw the children of friends turned away from the music forever because competitions were the driving force behind many of the branches.
Elsewhere somebody said that competitions "are a bit of fun if you don't take them seriously" - a bit like telling an Everton supporter that "it's only a game" after his team have been thrashed 6-0 by Liverpool in a derby game (or the highly unlikely case of the opposite happening).
Competitions destroy everything that is good and communal about the music; they stir up bitterness and rivalry and introduce aspects into the music that should not and need not be there; I've seen it happen time and time again. They kill the love of the music as surely as Woody Guthrie's guitar "killed fascism".
However, this is no longer an issue as far as traditional music in general is concerned; Irish music has now found its own feet and is thriving purely for the love of it; as you rightfully say "CCE is no longer the only game in town". The question of whether or not to hold competitions is purely an internal decision.
I wish yours, and every other branch the greatest success, however you choose to approach the music, but whenever the suggestion of introducing competitions outside of CCE is raised, I can't promise to sit on my hands and say nothing.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:52 AM

there was a competition for the best sea song,at Scarborough sea fest this year the winner was Wendy Arrowsmith.
Competitions do not destroy evertything that is good about music.
   I think that is a sweeping generalisation,last year EFDSS ran a song writing competition,I have not heard any stories that bitterness arose in either[Seafest or Cheltenham Efdss] of these two competitions.
it really depends upon the attitude of the competitors, most adults are mature enough to realise that all judging is subjective.
I am quite closely involved with children who enter competitions,I had a pupil who won the all ireland CCE harmonica competition,this year he didnt progress beyond the Munster,he is not bitter, because his parents and his teacher[ME] have over the years,explained that Winning is not the be all and end all ,that learning from adjudicators comments, participating,and all the practice beforehand is just as important,a lot depends upon the parents attitudes,and in my experience the majority of parents handle the situation well.
so we have two different scenarios, competitions for adults and competitions for children.
we also have the spin off from CCE competitions,e .g. the meeting of thousands of musicians in sessions at the fleadhs.
finally competitions can be a way of raising funds for EFDSS,This is of course one reason why CCE will not drop competitions because it brings in a lot of money. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:02 AM

Woody Guthrie's guitar killed fascism, did it?

Well, that's alright then.

I think the problems in some Comhaltas branches are more than a preoccupation with Competitions - though that can be part of it. Like any voluntary activity, Comhaltas, EFDSS or your local WI tends to attract people who just like to be in charge of things. I suspect that's at least as much of a problem as the existence of competitions (which of course, are often run by the exact same people).   I think the moral is if you actually want to be in charge of something like Comhaltas - you shouldn't be (I didn't, as it happens).

Greg, fair point about the traditions indigenous to the North-West of England. If this thing comes off, though, it'll depend on who or what is available at the time. I'm wary of trying to incorporate too many styles or traditions in one event, especially first time out of the traps. Plus I'm probably not the right person to talk about the North-West tradition (though my old mate John Offord is).

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:36 AM

Chris B: would very much like to talk to you about your very interesting fleidh/feis Irish/Scottish NW England get-together plan.
Could you get in touch: either sign up a member and send me a PM, or chase me up via the Boat Band section of Harbourtown Records

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

Unfortunately, Woody Guthries guitar hasnt killed fascism.
If I was running a competition I would try to get competent judges,for a song writing competition,someone who was experienced in song writing.
at Scarborough Sea Fest,the judge was Matt Armour,who has written some fine songs, one of which was sung by Ewan Maccoll.
Jim, asks whether I consider myself qualified,well I would have thought the answer to that question was obvious,I have judged song writing competitions before,and written songs that other people have recorded,so Yes I do consider myself qualified,but as I say if I was running a competition I would prefer to ask someone else.,somebody totally independent.
Jim generally speaking my self composed songs have been well received,as have my folkclub/festival performances ,over the last 35 years.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

on the subject of fascism,one good thing Mussolini[apart from punctual trains] did, was beat the hell physically out of the Mafia.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM

Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar
"This machine kills fascists".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:06 AM

Tell you what Cap'n
You have said in the past that criticism of singers should take place in private and only when invited.
As far as I am concerned competitions - choosing the best from all participating - are criticisms of all taking part.
How about putting say half-a-dozen of your songs up on your web-site and inviting all of us to comment on your performance openly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

Jim,if you visit dickmilesmusic on youtube you will see that I have 18 videos,you can also visit www.sound lantern .com where I have 50 audios.people are free to comment on all these.
as regards my suitability to judge songwriting competitions,I have received compliments from song writers such as Richard Grainger and John Conolly regarding my compositions.
here is one which I hope people will like.
when the lads come back to port,
   they spend their money free,
its rattle the cash,jack the lad,
the boys are on the spree.

weve been to sea six weeks or more
out on deck with fingers sore
cold and wet unto the bone
waiting for the day when we get home.

its gut em and ice em down the hole
just one more net and then well go
homeward bound for yarmouth town
pockets full of gleaming siver crowns

and when to sea we do return
for beer and lasses then we yearn
the silver herring jumpin the light
its haul in the nets boys good and tight.

siver shadows in the pale moonlight
gleaming silver crowns so bright
thinking of the crack when we get home
its haulin the nets were yarmouth bound.

and now our cash is almost gone
i swear the herring hear us come
the shoakls are getting hard to find.
its haul in the nets boys one more time.

and now the fishings getting poor
we follow the sight of the whales blow
watch the gulls to find the shoals
its haul in the nets then head for home.

and when to town we do return
we swear our oilskins we will burn
but when the rentman comes around
its seaboots on for the fishing grounds copyright DickMiles

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:01 AM

http://www.dickmiles.comhttp://www.youtube.com/user/dickmilesmusic

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:30 AM

Thanks for that Cap'n.
Nasal - gappy - accompaniment too loud - and very, very flat and samey.
I'd give it two, but i wouldn't buy it.
Next
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:36 AM

Forget the EFDSS....we could have Mudcat song writing and singing comps. Jim and Dick could work together as judges.....it would be good for both of you to heal your differences!

Cool....who's going to put the first video up then?

Paul

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:35 AM

well, if we all liked the same thing,life would be boring.
I am not sure to which of the 18 videos Jim Carroll is referring,quite frankly I dont care.
the proof of the pudding is in the eating,there are 18 videos,that show both my concertina and guitar playing, and my vocal abilty.
the majority of people like what I do and I frequently get complimented on my voice /singing and concertina playing,I enjoy making music,and have enjoyed writing songs.
when recording with one mike in a home environment,it is more difficult to get a balance, than when one is in a recording studio,most people understand this and appreciate performers sharing their music on you tube.I believe that this is what music is about, sharing.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM

This kinda horseshit between musicians is why we wrote off any attempt to seek a British market for the CD. Too many jealous and pompous assholes. Just not worth the postage.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

Dick.....yes, I like what you do having had the privilege of seeing you live.....I'm just having a bit of fun!

Peace....we ain't all like that, you should try for a British market. What's with all the anti-British stuff recently?

Paul

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

As a point of clarification, both Jim and Dick are residents of Ireland.
Ireland is not Britain, though geographically ONLY, it is the second biggest island of the group that comprises the British Isles. I've no idea why residents of the Americas are in continual confusion over this. Possibly you are attempting to refer to the UK market where goods are paid for in GBP. In Ireland they use the Euro. But who knows?

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

That is exactly the kind of pompous horseshit I mean.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Second you on that, Peace. Diane is so damned arrogant at times. Trouble is she probably believes that the culturally inferior colonials don't realize that Ireland is an island unto itself, or that it has a different monetary system, unless, of course you are in the North of Ireland. But what do us continually confused residents of the Americas know. But as a point of clarification, I wonder if Diane understands that "the Americas" comprise two continents, and 33 countries (if one throws the Indies in) and many cultures, and levels of education. So the vast generalization that this resident of the British Isles puts forth is just as asinine as that which,in her arrogance, she complains about.

Mick

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:36 AM

the Americas" comprise two continents, and 33 countries

Indeed I do know this, unlike some British people who think that the land mass to our west is an amorphous "US of A". That is why I used the term "the Americas" deliberately.

The British Isles, however, are not "England" nor even the UK as a great many transatlantic residents appear to think (when they engage in this activity at all).

The two people who "Peace" is attempting to slag off and does not wish to sell some CD or other to because they are Brits are neither UK nor England residents.

Certainly sounds confused and / or ignorant to me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:40 AM

Every single time you post you prove the point.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:50 AM

The point being, presumably, that an unfortunate number of people (yourself included), neither know nor care that the peoples of Ireland and England, divided for centuries on ethnic, economic, religious and political grounds at the behest of a class-based elite, are nonetheless residents of two different countries.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM

A person is Irish simply because they live in Ireland?

There is a small group of folks of English persuasion (and possibly Irish) who consistently put others and their music down. If they didn't have music and musicians to publicly disdain and denounce, they'd have little to say. Everybody has opinions, but what turns me off the most is that a FEW folks think it's actually acceptable to go on at length about their hates.

Those who engage in this sort of slamming make music look as though it's a bloodsport. One hound catches a scent and then the others join in.

There are good people in the UK, I know, but they're less insistent and much less prolific, so guess what comes through to the observer.

As long as you keep trying to tear people down here, you will be proving his point, to him and to others.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

Lemme guess what class you are from . . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:56 AM

Needless picking of nits, Diane. We are speaking of a geographical marketplace. Just as a British band would market to the North American market. There was absolutely no need for such a broad generalization, other than to demonstrate your disdain and demonstrate some sort of self perceived intellectual superiority.

My last word.... back to the discussion of EFDSS and competitions.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM

The voice of reason. I am off this thread. Paul, I sent you a PM. Thanks all. Now Jim and Dick can get back to the spat.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:11 AM

I hold no particular brief for either Jim or Dick. I know them slightly and know that they live in Ireland. It seemed thus more than faintly ridiculous that someone who has taken a dislike to them was using this as an excuse not to sell some product in the UK where they are not resident.

Someone who is trying to imply that I think the two musicians in question are Irish because I have said that they live in that country is plainly demented. I am fully aware of their provenance and careers. My knowledge of Irish political history stems from having reported (both news and music pieces) from Belfast in the early 70s. I stayed not in the Europa along with other journos but with my friends, the McPeakes, off the Falls Road.

So will all you loud-mouthed, pretendy know-all transatlantic shits put that wherever you feel like and do want you want with it, preferably setting fire to yourselves in the process.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:13 AM

Yep, Peace, you are right. She does prove the point every time she posts. Now I really am out of this one.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM

Watch your blood pressure, Diane.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:29 AM

Well, I could draw you a map. But I really can't be arsed.
Suggested reading: the cartoon book Ireland For Beginners.
Though it's probably far too advanced for Murkans who don't recognise self-determination for any nation but their own.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Newport Boy
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:39 AM

I'd stopped reading this one a while back, thinking it had got bogged down. I just had another look, since it seemed to be busy.

I wish I hadn't - I won't again.

Phil

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM

No.

The thread should have a warning sticker: only for those who know nothing whatsoever - culturally, economically, politically or geographically - about Britain / the UK / Ireland but want to sound off incomprehensible misinformation and prejudices anyway.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:49 AM

http://www.dickmiles.com I have not slagged anyone off,in fact it is me that has been slagged off,but I am not worried.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: GUEST,watching 1
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Not to put too fine a point on it, Diane, but Big Mick is a resident of the United States and Peace is a resident of Canada. Seems to me that you decided to show your fabled attitude and these lads nicked you on it. And what was the point of you running your Irish credentials, and the idiotic name dropping (McPeake's)? You just look the prat in all of this.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

Sigh.

The point is, Dick, that somebody slagged off both you and Jim for having your usual little disagreement and announced this was why some merchandise or other was not being marketed in Britain . . . to punish you both. Now what this particular product is, or whether you'd want it in the first place, I know not. Neither of you, however, live in Britain. And in any case, IF you wanted it, you'd find out how and where to obtain it. Wouldn't you?

We are, today, fully globalised, whether we like it or not, thanks to US-inspired global capitalism. Still doesn't make Ireland part of "England", though . . . Nor does it mean the EFDSS should operate exactly as Comhaltas does.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

BM lives in the US. I know.
P lives in Canada. I know.
Your point is?

However, Dick & Jim live in Ireland. Which is not "Britain".
BM (and especially P) apparently do not know this.

I do not have "Irish credentials" Not one.
I've spent time there working.
And I've worked for the EFDSS.
I stayed with the McPeakes.
They stayed with me in England.
No one's dropping anyone's name.
Who are you anyway?

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

your right. Diane,on several points
EFDSS do not have to work like comhaltas,they could if they wished operate competitions which would raise money,but there are other ways of doing it.
they had a song writing competition,which didnt operate on the comhaltas model[local ,regional ,national],in fact regional styles are more likely to be preserved,if the competition is, for example, best northumbrian piper,or best north west fiddler etc.
so that one regional style is not being judged against another.
of course, all competitions are subjective,and not always the best person wins,but they are good focus points and they normally produce good spin offs[musicians getting together]Dick Miles

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

Sorry folks,
Having a bit of fun myself - while trying to make a point.
Better or worse - good or bad are, as you say, subjective opinions which have little or anything to do with what is under discussion.
Dick (or me, or anybody) judging a singing or songwriting competition would be expressing his (or our) own personal opinion at that moment - nothing else. Quite often your judgement on a piece of music or a song is entirely dependent on the mood you are in at that time - not a good reason to hand out the Glittering Prizes.
For me, this is what invalidates all competitions connected with something as transitory as music.
Competitions are more likely to divide and alienate musicians rather than bringing them together - note Dick's reaction to my comments on his singing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Gene Burton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

Well, having heard Dick's singing online it sounded pretty damn fine to me...I understand he tours in the UK quite regularly, and I for one certainly intend to check out his live set next time he's anywhere near me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:31 AM

Dick wants to set up competitions to assess the singing of others with himself as chief judge.
I express an opinion on Dick's singing and he regards it as being 'slagged off'.
Game, set and match.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM

Dick: don't suppose you can get it in Ballydehob, but if you get the chance take a look at the BBC Competition series "Last Choir Standing", introduced by Mylene Klass(sp?). Then come back and tell us you would like to intoduce more competitiveness into English musical life!

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

At no time did I say that Ireland was part of Britain. The self-appointed Queen of English Folk Music and All Matters Thus Connected chose to interpret it that way. You folks gotta be less afraid of her.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:07 AM

At   08:39 on 6 August, someone called "Peace" declared, à propos of a mild, though on-topic, spat between two residents of Ireland, that a market for some CD or other was not being sought "in Britain", a sanction unlikely to affect or be of any concern to the combatants who are not resident in that country.

This "Peace" person appears to regard discussion of the issue of musical competition within the English and / or Irish traditions as "kinda horseshit".

Highly constructive - not - (and far from being any of his concern as he is in no way aligned to either tradition, nor indeed any at all, as far as I know. On the other hand, both Dick Miles and Jim Carroll are eminently qualified, as a consequence of their extensive experience, to expound on whether or not competition is Good or Useful in trad music. From what I know of both Jim and Dick, they are far from being "jealous, pompous assholes", as the oddly-named "Peace" dubbed them.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

as a mature adult,I have entered competitions.
I entered one as a member of the group, The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet,we were the winners,as far as I know the other competitors,were happy with the decision,no one stopped playing the concertina as a result.
I have [when I had nothing else to do]entered comhaltas competitions I havent been too bothered if I won or not,sometimes I have sometimes I havent,I just regard it as another opportunity to play music[whatIhave found most useful is the preparation,the working on detail of specific tunes,in fact I think that is more useful],than the end decision.
Jim seems to think I am bothered by his comments I am not,as far as I am concerned Jim has no more qualification to judge my singing,than anyone else whose singing I have not heard.,
most Comhaltas Judges that I have encountered[EdelFox who is amighty concertina player was one]had generally favourable things to say about my concertina playing[particularly of airs],its these people and people like Martin Carthy[who played guitar on one of my lps],Lou Killen,Peter Bellamy,whose opinions I value,because they can do/did the business.
if I want an opinion on building I approach a master craftsman,If I want an opinion on bird song I would approach Percy Edwards.
in fairness to Comhaltas their judges are good exponents of thier craft,either good players of their instrument,or good singers.
Jim Carroll has collected some songs,I dont see that that gives him a qualification to judge my singing /concertina playing/songwriting,or any reason why I should take his opinions any more seriously than Pavarotti,Tom Jones or Joe Bloggs.
Comhaltas judges are selected on their ability to play an instrument well or sing well.[as ar as I know Jim Carroll doesnt play amusical instrument and does not sing any more]so what qualification does he have.
all that I know of Jim Carroll is that he used to collect traditional singers and their songs and he used to be friend of Ewan Maccoll,and that he used to be a member of the Manchester Critics group,am I supposed to be impressed?well Iam not ,which is why I dont value his opinion any more than the local dustman.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

Cap'n,
Your arguments get sillier by the minute.
I am not promoting myself as anything - you are.
I am not in the slightest bit interested in 'judging' anybody's performance - you are.
What qualifies you to be a judge rather than me, Countess Di, Greg, or anybody involved in the music?
You are proposing to appoint yourself as a judge over the singing of others, yet when your own singing is judged you describe it as being 'slagged off' - whence the difference?
I believe competitions are destructive and create bad feeling - as amply demonstrated by your own reaction.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

Dick,

You're both music people. Not self-appointed critics, but music people. Be nice. I hope to meet you both at some point, and I would love to hear more of your work. Why don't you two just agree to disagree and let the other shit go? Easier that way. Better for you, too.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Peace,
Thanks for that - agree entirel.
Truth te tell, we're waiting for the decree absolute to come through.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

Yeah, Peace, I am with you. It kills me to see folks argue over this aul load of shite when there is so much that is important to argue about. Jim Carroll is a knowledgeable and respected muso. I don't know as much about Dick Miles, although he surely loves the music. I could do with a little less of his self promotion, but what the hey, the guy is supporting himself.

Competitions, we might agree, are a two edged sword. While I don't think they are inherently bad, as Jim does, I surely get tired of the stage parents I see at some of them that act as though their kids are contenstants in a beauty pageant. Yet when I see the piping competitions and I see the young Uilleann Pipers striving for excellence, I know that the future will honor the past, and continue to evolve in sophisticated, and beautiful, ways.

So how's about it, lads. Can we leave this, agree to disagree, and move on?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: EFDSS and competitions
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

Mick,If you dont know, ask, I have been active in the English folk revival over the last 35 years.,in fact more active than Jim Carroll.Iam a professional musician
Competitions are ok for adults,in fact why should adults be deprived of competitions if they wish to enter,just because some dont like them,no adult is forced to enter a competition.yes Iagree to disagree.and 100.