TECH: Sing it in, get dots out

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:33 PM

I think Finale's new "Guitar" program is supposed to let you input sound from any source that can be plugged directly in or miked and generate either a MIDI or sheet music.

I haven't tried it myself, though. I imagine, though, that the result will depend on how true your pitch is and how simple your timing is. A really 'lyrical' arrangement, with notes held for odd lengths like 1/64 or 7/8 notes, or a voice that doesn't deliver a clear single pitch would probably confuse the program. Joe, I imagine that laryngitis might make it sound like your were playing a violin and a washboard at the same time! ;-D

Genie

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:39 PM

Here's a link to Coda Music's "Finale: Guitar," which sells for $99.
Finale Guitar

Click where it says "Enter Notes," and you will see that there are several ways to enter the notes, including SCANNING sheet music and playing a SINGLE NOTE instrument.
If your voice doesn't have a lot of distracting overtones, I'd imagine you can plug in a miked voice instead of a piano or guitar.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

Genie -

The Midi Store offers Finale Guitar for $89. The $10 difference might be wiped out by shipping, but then you'd probably pay shipping if you get it from Finale too.

I haven't dealt with these guys, but offer them just as an example of "better pricing" that you can find with a little looking about.

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

John, you can, if you wish, download the software from Coda (now MakeMusic.com) instead of having a CD shipped. If you do order a CD, I don't think the S&H is over a few bucks.

It's nice to know about discounters. Still, there may be advantages in dealing directly with the co. that makes the software. Also, Coda/MakeMusic has specials from time to time.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

Genie -

It's a little off the original subject of the thread, but I've found a need to replace my straight notation software (due to not-quite-compatible problems with XP).

I've pretty much identified Sibelius as what I'd like to have, and I'd very much prefer to deal direct - BUT:

Sibelius 2 lists at $599.00, and Photo Score Pro at $199.00, for a total of $798.00 (plus shipping), if you order it from Sibelius.

The Midi Store offers the "bundled" Sibelius 2 and Photo Score Pro for $499.00 (with free ground shipping in the US), and ProStudioMusic.com has the same package for $490 (also with free shipping).

Sibelius wants you to prove you qualify before they'll tell you what their "academic" prices are, but academic pricing from Midi Store – "available only to qualifying schools, colleges, universities, educators, students and church representatives in the USA," gets you the Sibelius 2 + Photo Score Pro for $329.00.

I have a hard time rationalizing that a 17 MB program to notate music should cost me nearly the same as a 1.4 GB operating system and a 300 MB full office suite combined ($878 for XP Pro Windows plus Office Pro at Mickey's web shop) – even given their relative market volume.

But they can discount it by 60% if you're the right kind of person?

It's a lot like the local market that tells me milk is $3.80 per gallon without their "card" but I get it for $2.89 per gallon if I use the card. Then they have the b... to try to tell me "You saved $0.91" - but the store down the street sells it for $2.74 per gallon without the card.

I just don't shop at the store with the card, but in this case there isn't a direct replacement product - so I face the moral dilema of whether withholding my business because of their predatory pricing is worth putting up with a "substitute" that isn't quite what I'd like.

I'm not objecting to their giving educational discounts - but the difference is just too great. (Since it's illegal to sell at a loss (under antitrust regulations) the "educational price" must be somewhere close to what they figure is their cost of production and distribution.)

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:24 AM

The InteliScore program at the link given by Mark Clark (10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM) above is about the only thing I've seen (for less than about $5K US) that claims to be able to handle "polyphonic" audio input. Ability to distinguish multiple simultaneous notes would be a big help in separating the "true" note from its harmonics – one of the things that makes most "one-note-at-a-time" (monophonic) converters difficult or impossible to use with any real success.

If it works, the price is would not be too unreasonable, at $79 for the registration of the download, or $99 boxed by mail, given the difficulty of doing what it "promises."

It does note, however:

"With intelliScore and additional software you can:
Print sheet music from your favorite music
Record MIDI directly into your sequencer software using your voice or any acoustic instrument
See the chord names and key detected by intelliScore
Change individual notes, swap instruments, transpose, etc."

Unfortunately, when I follow the "additional software" link, I can't discern which of the many "additional items" shown would be needed to allow you to do the above things.

I'd have to raise an eyebrow over the "with additional software you can record MIDI … using your voice or any acoustic instrument" when that's what it says the basic InteliScore program is supposed to do for you.

It looks like a program worth some investigating, and I'll put it on my rather long list - but for now I'll remain somewhat "unconvinced."

John

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:29 AM

the educational price probably includes a pretty hefty profit. From all indications it is a pretty hefty chunk of their market.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:20 AM

I'll have a further attempt over the weekend, but my procedure for testing these Wave to Midi programs goes like this:

- Download a simple diatonic tune from the DT

- Create a Wave file using Wingroove, Mono only, limit the output to 8 or 16 kb, no Reverb. Save as Whistle sound rather than (say) Piano - I haven't succeeded in doing this yet.

- Import this simple Wave file into the Wave to Midi program (whichever) and try it out.

If the program cannot handle this input Wave sample with its perfect pitch, perfect timing, zero pitch modulation, zero volume variation and limited harmonics, then its ability to handle something generated by a mere human must be limited indeed.

When I last tried this testing regime a couple of years back there wasn't a single program that came within cooee.

Of the two freeware progs I mentioned earlier Wave Goodbye appears to have a lot of the science covered, but I'll report later.

O don't have a PC on the Web at the moment so I'll take a few days.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM

Guest

Will be interested in what you find. Please post comments when you get your testing done.

I'm afraid your previous tests parallel the results I got, although I didn't make and attempt to test more than a couple of programs; and I didn't do anything very systematic. As you say, they didn't meet my needs at the time.

John (in Kansas)

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:04 AM

I have downloaded a few of the available demo programmes, but haven't had much time to play about with them.
This one - TS-AudioToMIDI 2.00 was pretty accurate at converting a Tin Whistle to a MIDI. The Demo version doesn't save MIDIs, so listening to the result is all I have been able to do. It also made a fair attempt at converting a tune picked on a mandoline, especially if you set the graphic equaliser to eliminate any noises outside the range of the melody. It was patchy when attempting to convert clawhammer banjo, and got overwhelmed by the overall sound.
As far as voice was concerned, I managed to La-La a version of Carrickfergus and get out a fairly recognisable MIDI version - the notes wobbled around and the MIDI had a lot of weird squeaks, but it WAS recognisable. As I haven't paid for the version which allows me to save the MIDI produced, I cannot comment on what you would get out if you tried to put the mIDI into a notation programme. I suspect that there would be a LOT of work cleaning up the unwanted additions.
The full version is around the 20 UK Pound mark - (30 US Dollars/Euros).
As an input you really need to record a ***.wav file on another programme and then import this file. There are four different conversions to try. Some produce better results on a particular type of "sound". There are also sliders and settings which allow you to adjust what it converts as melody and what it ignores as "Background Noise".
I intend to try some others - I have tried the Free converter, "Wave Goodbye", but it isn't as easy to use, and I haven't made my opinions on it yet.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:18 AM

The reason tin whistles will work well on automated processes and voice doesn't is because the whistle is a tuned pipe and will play the same note each time (or it is obvious if it doesn't). The human voice has the psychological factor that none of believe we sing badly or embellish as much as we do (well most of us anyway) and our larynxes are not tuned pipes - it is our brain via ears that are tuned, and not all of us have perfect pitch. Those that do often acquired it by practice. Those that can only sing are rarely trained. I speak from personal experience. My first attempts were with a guitar tuner and it latched onto harmonics. My DOS program got better the more I used it!!!!
Isn't the brain a wonderful thing ?

My Windows prog has just passed a major hurdle but it relies on free "FFT API's" for speed and the instructions were barely adequate in Chinese, in English they are sub-basic. It is still a few months away.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 04:58 AM

Just recalled this thread.
Has anybody got any further with finding a programme which does the job?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 08:55 AM

All the attempts I have seen so far either don't work, or make it harder work than learning to write the dots yourself!

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM

Mmario,
Reading music is reading in a language. It becomes necessary to know what the notes mean. First, learning sharps and flats in a major key is like learning ABC's. It should be learned systematically and intelligently though. The construction of a major scale has a pattern that can be applied to all keys. THe problem is that the say most music schools teach this is that the scales are never "internalized". In order to understand them, they must be sung.

The use of soffeggio (do,re mi etc.) is useful here but I prefer to use numbers. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 with sharps and flats being expressed as IE: b2, or #4. If you start with simple songs and decide what number corresponds to the letter name on the staff (which you can soon learn to identify) and sing those numbers, you will be on the say to learning to sight sing. Then you will have an inside track into understanding why you are reading music...to interpret musical ideas.

The best way to learn the scales is to get staff paper and write them out in their respective keys this way....C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C# for the sharp keys and C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb for the flat keys. Each time you progress from one scale to the next, you add a sharp or a flat to the key signature after the treble clef sign. Do just the treble clef as this is the most practical since melodies are generally written there.

Frank Hamilton


Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 10:04 AM

the technical aspects of it I get. What I CAN'T get is...what note is being sung? What interval is between it and the next? (or what note is it...?

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 11:10 AM

Don't spose any of you clever people would like to try singing in YMCA and sending me the dots?????!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 12:37 PM

mmario,
I can only suggest you try comparing with an instrument. But if you can't tell when you are singing the same note as you are playing, then you may truly be tone deaf. (not nearly as common as people think)

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 11 Sep 03 - 02:24 PM

If you can distinguish between high and low notes, you are not "tone deaf". It just means that the ear hasn't been trained to distinguish the pitches. It's easier for some than others but it can be acquired.

Singing is extremely important here because the sound becomes internalized. Matching the voice may require outside help such as in a teacher but it can be done.

Frank

Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

The other day I recalled this thread, and wondered if any progress is being made in the search for a useable solution.
One thing which Ibrought it to mind was hearing a song from about a year or two back. The particular track was one by Cher, and it used a sound processing effect which automatically converted anything she sang to the nearest full note. The effect was that if she sang a sliding note, instead of it being a smooth change, the computer processed note stays at the starting note, until the voice reaches a certain point, then it jumps to the next note in the scale.
I just wondered if this technology (which someome has obviously already got working effectively) could be built into the sound analysis as pre-processing before the package tries to convert it to "dots".
Quack!
GtD.