BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM

kerkut defines the general theory of evolution as-

the theory that all living forms in the world have arisen from a single source, which itself came from an inorganic form.

anyone disagree with this definition?

I have little inclination to respond to the more abusive posts. if perchance such want a reply, try again without the badmouthing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 04:32 PM

Oh come on, pete! What I'm saying is that if a person insists on seeing the world through the eyes of a set of rigid, unchanging beliefs and faith, they can't be a scientist. Science is not a rigid set of beliefs but an open-minded, open-ended philosophical system based on the accumulation and analysis of evidence. Today's scientific concensus, on any particular subject, could be overthrown tomorrow if enough convincing evidence is gathered. I suspect that what you and your creationist chums object to is that there is no convincing evidence available to support either the biblical account of creation or the existence of God.

As for the politics of contemporary creationists, well I couldn't put it better than Stu did above:

"These people are the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, and should be treated with the same disdain, for they are as evil, ignorant and regressive." Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM

primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science.

Two assertions here, each one without a smidgeon of evidence to back it up. Just like all this bloke's other assertions really. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:48 PM

I sort of agree with most of your last post Shim.

But science does not do its work altruistically, they are not simply "messengers". Today, profit drives science.....the money plot poisons everything.
Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person.....but the organisation of "faith" may.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM

science has provided many benefits, but also weapons of mass destruction, so I guess it,s a mixed bag.

Yes, and science "provided" rat poison, dynamite, cyanide ampoules, Enigma machines, iPads... No, science bloody didn't! Science is neutral, and proudly so. What produces all those good and bad things is the application of science. Einstein lamented the misuse of his science in the making of nuclear weapons, but he knew that nuclear weapons were not his fault. So cut out that particularly nasty slice of dishonesty, if you don't mind. Examine your rotten conscience for once.

either way that has little to do with origins science, which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability , repeatability except in a much more limited sense.

It is subject to exactly the same rigour as any other science. Your problem is that you do not understand "origins science" (Christ on a bloody bike), nor, actually, do you understand science at all.

it does of course suit the evolutionist to equate both aspects, as if one is unscientific if they don't evolutionism.

When you have a minute, perhaps you could entertain us all by telling us what the bloody hell you're on about.

stu objects to the faith of "medieval peasants" being taught to our children. well we object to fanciful ideas of evolutionism being taught as though it were proven scientific fact.

No-one teaches any scientific theory as if it was "proven fact". You know, we do try to tell you this, ad nauseam, but you don't hear us. One other thing: you have no evidence for the Godly myth-as-truth you teach to children, whether now or in medieval times. We have evidence for evolution by the truckload. Your dishonest attempt at equivalence will catch you out every time, you nasty little man.

creation, shimrod, was standard Christian teaching long before US politics.

We don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM

Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person

Sincere faith has led to the persecution of millions of people, the subjugation of women, the repression of gay people, holy wars and the mass indoctrination of children. Keep your bloody faith strictly to yourself and keep it away from everyone else, have the humility to accept that what you have is faith without evidence, and I'm right with you. But one mention to anyone else that your faith is a good thing that they should consider and you're evil and you are doing harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM

" primitive societies sustained themselves for thousands of years, using only survival instinct and faith in their gods. Our present society is heading for destruction, despite, or perhaps because of our vastly superior knowledge of science."

Primitive societies existed (and still do here and there) because they understand that human beings are part of the natural world, a part of an ecosystem that they need to respect and sustain in order to survive; a way of living that runs contrary to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions, which says:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This nasty, ignorant and downright evil little tract absolves those with less integrity and gumption than normal of the responsibility of caring for the earth: "God says it was alright". Of course, the fact we're all brought up and raised largely as Christians/Muslims/Jews of some sort means that this point of view is entrenched in our culture; that has nothing to do with science.

"Perhaps we would have a healthier planet without science?"

Science is a system for discovering the fundamental truth of the nature of things, and it seeks to understand and enlighten. How that knowledge is used is a social question rather than a scientific one, and responsibility for forming policy based on science and establish commercial value to the results of scientific discovery is the realm of politicians, business people and the rest of us (although inequality robs most of us of any meaningful influence over policy and business).

As scientists we know the planet is in deep trouble as we are living through a mass extinction of catastrophic proportions, climate change is probably not going to be stopped and we are polluting our seas and clearing them of fish at a rate that means the oceans are fundamentally changing in nature (which is more frightening than the melting of the ice caps by some degree). Science isn't responsible for this because it advances technology; this situation has arisen because of an unsustainable economic system and politicians and big business taking advantage of their position. It's their lack of responsibility that will kill millions in the Bangladesh delta and the deserts of Africa, not scientists.

"which by its very nature is not subject to the scientific method of observation, testability, repeatability except in a much more limited sense.

Boring. The defining characteristic of science is that it is testable and falsifiable, and evolutionary theory certainly comes into this, as do many, many other aspects of science such as astrophysics and pure maths (no-one has ever directly observed the gas giant Kepler-87b orbiting it's home star, but we know it's there, know it's mass and its orbital period - about 114 days). But even though observation and repeatability do of course play a role in science, it seems that creationists do not apply these techniques to their own beliefs: creationist dogma crumbles if you try to observe it in action, it can't be repeated and it is not testable in the slightest. The maker remains conspicuous by their absence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM

Thank you for elaborating, Stu. It was past my bedtime! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:53 AM

Sincere "faith" on the other hand damages no thing or person

I dunno whether to laugh or cry!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM

>>"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This nasty, ignorant and downright evil little tract absolves those with less integrity and gumption than normal of the responsibility of caring for the earth: "God says it was alright". Of course, the fact we're all brought up and raised largely as Christians/Muslims/Jews of some sort means that this point of view is entrenched in our culture; that has nothing to do with science.<<<


A lot of Christian today take this as both a blessing and a responsibility to care for the planet and its creatures. If we have "dominion" over for instance blue whales, if they go extinct, it is on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM

"A lot of Christian today take this as both a blessing and a responsibility to care for the planet and its creatures. If we have "dominion" over for instance blue whales, if they go extinct, it is on us."

How can we have "dominion" over any living thing, apart from deciding whether we kill it or rob it of its place to live? We don't own them, you can't won a life (whatever the uber-capitalists think). The word is defined as "supreme authority" or "absolute ownership" by Miriam-Webster and there is little doubt that this is the context used in the Bible, as previously God orders man to "subdue it" (the earth) i.e. do with it as thou wilt. Little room for interpretation there.

I dunno. I don't mean to tread on the faith of most people, it's just the extremists that give such cause for concern as they attempt to impose their views on us all. Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. There's an barely concealed violence about their manner and lack of tolerance that makes me think they are beyond the rules that the rest of us agree to abide by. I get from them a sense of arrogance and ignorance that is unsettling to say the least, as they fear diversity and free thought and that is truly frightening, and never ends well.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

If you have dominion over a blue whale, you have blubber to last you a long time I suppose.

Hello sailor !

Interesting time for you to rejoin the crèche. We seem to have suspended the bingo messiah based true path and are getting deep and meaningful over creationism and other such nonsense.

Talking of nonsense... When you say a lot of Christians, do you mean you feel a responsibility to care and hope others do as Christians, or do you think the normal altruistic desire to care for the planet is a Christian thing and it is weird coincidence that some of us rational people care also?

Always fascinated to hear of how you have to be superstitious in order to do good. Just off to get the panda burgers into the bottom oven. They need to cook slowly and soak up the rhinoceros horn sauce.   Tell you what though, trying to get a blue whale into an aga top oven isn't easy. Whack its arse with the oven paddle though and you stand a sporting chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:21 PM

Plenty of blubbering from Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM

"Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. "


Somewhere in there, is the crux of my objection to Atheistic Dogmatism as practiced by Mr. Shaw and "Musket."

The same in nature, perhaps, but in consequence? A bullet to the head or the removal of sex organs is not the same as planting an idea that can be easily refuted and debated with access to the Internet.

So lumping the worst and most violent with all religious people is ignorant and wrong. I'm not talking about you Stu. You clearly are not trying to do that.

I try to see the wisdom in the Bible and guide myself by it.

Dominion: The word is defined as "supreme authority" or "absolute ownership" by Miriam-Webster.

The human race does have "supreme authority" over species like blue whales. We can preserve them or exterminate them at will. I'm not stating this as a moral argument but as a practical fact. A wolf kills Bambi's mom, it has no moral obligation. A human hunter kills a doe, he has the knowledge of good an evil and must live with what he has done. It is likewise with any issue involved with "dominion" over the Earth, recycling, building, fuel extraction and consumption. You name it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:22 PM

I see Barnacle balls is back in the fray with his usual semi digested pseudo intellectual cut and paste crapola.

This post is now getting even more tedious..in the light of this
I need to ask you "clever" people two questions, count 'em, two questions.

Collectively you seem to have all the answers:
1. then why oh why is this world in such a state of insufferable chaos, pain, famine, inequality of opportunity, were the division of wealth is massive?

2.Why are you lot are sat on your judgmental smug arses and doing nowt about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:14 PM

I dunno. I don't mean to tread on the faith of most people, it's just the extremists that give such cause for concern as they attempt to impose their views on us all. Those that would teach creationism as science are indistinguishable in nature from those that practice female circumcision, ban pop music and shoot kids in the head for daring to say they should be allowed to go to school. There's an barely concealed violence about their manner and lack of tolerance that makes me think they are beyond the rules that the rest of us agree to abide by. I get from them a sense of arrogance and ignorance that is unsettling to say the least, as they fear diversity and free thought and that is truly frightening, and never ends well.

Spot on, Stu. Best post in the thread by a country mile. The most dangerous and nasty people in the world are those who base their convictions on the kind of blind ignorance passed down to them by their particular traditions, and who studiously ignore evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM

"Atheistic Dogmatism"

What the hell is that, Wacko? Care to define?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM

well, stu, I suppose you make a point in saying that creation is not repeatable in the sense of beginnings.
that is sort of parallel to your faith that the GTE happened as per kerkut above. [pleased no one had a problem with that].
however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation. shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator, but fact remains that there is no evidence for abiogenesis - it is a faith position, as is the assertion ,that science is closing in on the "problem".
cause and effect, was, I would have thought pretty basic, as is, there was no cause, and no laws of science, if there was ever a point when there was absolutely nothing. evolutionists further assert that scientific law [ie- myriad observations of biogenesis] was broken.
then you have the cheek to mock believers for having faith.
and that is just the genesis [pun intended!] of your theory before getting to further change in scientific norms to accommodate your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:55 PM

however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation.

There certainly is not. Logic has to take a permanent back seat in creationist dogma, old chap. If you don't agree, stop faffing around and tell us your logical basis for the existence of God. Come along, we're waiting...

shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator

Typical pete dishonesty (how the hell do you live with your conscience?) The person who is doing the evading is you. Please answer: where did your God come from? It's a child's question but it's the most profound question ever to confront religion, and, if you can't answer it, you're stuffed. It really is as simple as that. Stop accusing other people of evasion and answer that question. Piss or get off the pot.

but fact remains that there is no evidence for abiogenesis

The evidence for what you call abiogenesis (I don't need to call it that, but hey) is all around you, in its diversity, abundance and beauty. The Earth was a fireball that became the home for life. That's a wonderful notion and you are not going to spoil it with your banal notions of a big bearded all-seeing bloke (where was his missus?) who you can't explain mucking in to make it all.

Actually, where was his missus? Girls??? I'd be nowhere without the missus. What makes God so bloody special? Shall there be womanly times, or shall we die? Franny??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM

Hello Sailor!

First blue whales then dogs. Reckons he's ruddy Attenborough now. Mind you, he still seems to be searching for that elusive athiest. Buggered if I can help him there.

I was under the impression, and I stand to be corrected, that the term "contemplating the navel" meant questioning the God idea. On the basis of if we are in his image, does he have a belly button? No. Sorry Jerk. Using the bible for inspiration doesn't exactly get off to a flying start. You see, the problem is, the first line is bollocks for starters and I'm afraid it goes downhill after that.

The first line of Lord of the Rings is far more jolly and doesn't stretch the imagination till later when you get a bloke who is good at conjuring tricks and comes back from the dead.   



Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:22 AM

" ... as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation. shimrod may keep evading that by his "who made..etc....",and we could argue as to the being of the creator, or if he needed a creator, ..."

All man-made things are, of course, by definition, created by someone - but it doesn't LOGICALLY follow that everything, in general, was created by someone.

The source of everything that is not man-made is still a mystery but there is not a shred of evidence that it was created by some "immaterial", ineffable super-being. And if you have evidence for the existence of such a super-being, pete, let's be having it! Oh yes, and where did the super-being come from etc., etc., etc.? That's not being evasive, that's just asking some LOGICAL questions!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:09 AM

I was in the neonatal unit at the hospital yesterday, and a rather sad event happened, as it does occasionally.

I pitied the chaplain who thought he would comfort the parents by speaking of "God's will."

Religion can be a comfort if you are in the groove already, but it sure rings hollow for Normal people.......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:28 AM

I stand to be corrected, that the term "contemplating the navel" meant questioning the God idea

Always happy to correct you Musket.
The practise is an aid to meditation, used in Yoga and Hinduism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

Obviously, we can't find out whether God has a belly button from doing yoga then.

You can get a hernia from doing it I suppose......

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:38 AM

"however, as the theist posits a creator, there is a logical source to creation."

Because someone suggests something doesn't make it a hypothesis, let alone a theory. If you can't test it, it's a myth and nothing to do with science. How do we test the theist's assumption? We can't, as he can't point us to any evidence. This is not science, and never will be.

"for abiogenesis - it is a faith position, as is the assertion ,that science is closing in on the "problem".",/i>

Aren't Christians supposed to be honest? This statement is so ludicrously wrong and misrepresentative of my position it is nothing less than a downright lie. Science is not faith. End of. It is a system of philosophy and enquiry. This is exactly what I mean about about a sort of aggression that knows no rules or bounds, there's a nasty subtext of attempting to diminish someone through misrepresentation.


"then you have the cheek to mock believers for having faith.

More barefaced lies. I'm expressing concern over the literalist, extremist elements of Christianity who pursue a rather threatening tone when promoting (but not actually debating) their dogma. People who don't interpret, but take the bible literally.

I have no problem at all with most people of faith, in fact I love the diversity of faiths in the world, and we can learn from them if even if we don't subscribe to them. What bothers me is the extremist elements who exclude all but their own faiths from being taught, and equate faith with science as they are unable to comprehend (or face) a world that makes them question their faith closely.

Creationists, any number of violent faith-based organisations etc. are all of the same ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:06 PM

It is with the deepest regret that I have to report the demise of sanity on mudcat.

From a perfect reasonable thread about "militant atheism has become a religion p" this has become hijacked by a load of no nothing, ball scratching, swinging dick bollocks and bollixes, with their cut and paste thread creationist liberal with a small"l" diversity posts.

I do say this with conviction because, if someone suggests something doesn't make it a hypothesis, let alone a theory. If you can't test it, it's a myth and nothing to do with science.

How do we test the theorist's assumption? We can't, as the ginger hypothesis calligraphy penis heads can't point us to any evidence. This is not science, and never will be.

The foolish silly people, ball scratching ,ginger cake eating prognosis positioning hominids- and it is a prognosis position, as is the assertion and not a position that science is closing in on the "problem"..Ah..not so!! seaman staynes, shaw, big baby wizzjet would probably agree with you, but not I...Crayons and fish smelling inflatable bag women are on there way you saddos. have a really nice sad day, you here..or not?xxxxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:21 PM

stu and shimrod are trying to charge me with dishonesty when I say that their's is a faith position.
not a shred of evidence for a creator, say they, when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before.
it's the biggest creation myth around.
it does not even have the benefit of any kind of first cause.
it IS ACCEPTED BY FAITH, whatever scientific sounding spin they put on it.
if you think it can happen - show us your evidence.
in the meantime ,I don't see anything illogical about saying that , anything that has a beginning, must have a sufficient cause.
that ,admittedly does not prove there is an eternal creator but sure seems a lot more logical than it all came from nothing via no one!.

and if you want to go down the path of equating creation Christians with dangerous evil, I am more than happy to remind you of the evil of some Darwin believers in recent history.
and on what basis do you call something evil. was, nt it dawkins who said that there was,nt good or evil, just blind pitiless indifference.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM

We hear you all right, bonkeresss conkeress, and I was going to nominate you for poster of the year until I read the bit about fish-smelling inflatable bag women. Almost put me right off of me fish supper, did that. Are you a scorned and defeated lesbian, by any chance? Just askin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM

You're struggling like mad, pete, and how good it is to see. You must be one very unhappy man.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 08:08 PM

"first cause". That's a joke, right Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 01:34 AM

Match abandoned. Waterlogged pitch.

Bookies not returning stakes though. Act of God apparently.

See? William Hill appear to have evidence that supports pete's position. In the meantime the rest of us trudge home in the wet and windy weather.

Is there a God? If there is, he seems to support Wigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM

I insist that my current support for the 'something from nothing', Big Bang theory is NOT a "faith" position. I would change my allegiance like a shot if evidence for a different origin for the Universe became available. But if that evidence pointed towards some sort of immaterial, ineffable super-being then I would want to know where that super-being came from, where he got his materials etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:21 AM

I recall mentioning in the very beginnings of the very original thread that Jerk infested us with that there is a fairly fundamental difference between faith and reality.

"Science" (to lump all observable theories together, sorry) is observing and finding the reason. Faith is dreaming up the reason and twisting observations to fit it.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you put your hypothesis at the beginning or the end of the process.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM

To borrow that phrase, ""History" is researching and finding the reason. Faith is dreaming up the reason and twisting observations to fit it."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM

"is something wrong, because YOU object to the politics of the scientist?!"

No! It is wrong because those so-called scientists (with no qualifications relating to evolution) are prostituting science for the purpose of perpetuating myths and fantasies based on a selective series of writings, altered and skewed numerous times to fit the agendas of people like yourself.

None of those writers had direct knowledge of Jesus (if he existed), so even their first account was largely hearsay and writings that didn't fit their agenda comfortably were discarded (the missing gospels).

Anybody who believes in YEC cannot by definition claim a scientific basis for that belief, but may still be an effective cancer researcher or similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:40 PM

Reading scripture and saying it must be true because of eminent desert dwelling peasants who wrote it.

Reading a few history accounts and saying it must be true because of the eminent newspaper hacks who wrote it.

zzzzzz

Piss off Keith, there's a good chap. A real Christian is in this debate, so no real need for a boutique Christian such as yourself. Mind you, he may be consistent but his cutting and pasting and defending what he found elsewhere sure rings a bell..

Blind pitiless indifference.... Reminds me of a few years ago sat in a city cafe on a Sunday morning waiting for my girlfriend and her mates to join me after bell ringing, watching the faithful in their best Sunday threads, crossing the road on the way to the cathedral to avoid the Big Issue guy and the old lady sat on her sleeping bag with her cupped hands.

I say pete, do you think the priests who shag young boys in their care do it in the name of their God or does Christianity embrace this blind pitiless indifference too?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 05:31 PM

pitiful response , musket. guilt by association . the priests who do such things are inconsistent with what they profess.
I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you.
either way what they have done hardly disproves Christianity, still less that there is a creator.
and whats with the cut and paste talk? we all get our info from somewhere. I thought cut and paste was directly transferring passages from elsewhere. I am one finger typing, not doing anything tech.

someone above said something about what cant be tested is not scientific and a myth.
like I say - evolutionism is the biggest myth around .

troubadour - how would you know if creation scientists have qualification in evolutionism or not. have you read their bios?
if you had, I don't think you would make such a blanket statement.
mind you, being dishonest must have an evolutionary benefit! but I will assume it was an honest mistake, at this stage.

ok shimrod, if you insist your belief in something from nothing via no one is not a faith position, you need to show us the evidence, either that it happened, or that it can happen.
and it better be better than steves, who seems to be saying that the evidence consists of the fact that we are here in this world?!
methinks he is the one struggling like mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:40 PM

Good heavens, pete, how "abrasive" you're becoming! I hope it means that you're getting so pissed off with us that you'll disappear, but hey, it's a free country!

As for this: I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you

Well now, why wouldn't they be? Are you saying that you can't sincerely believe in God if you shag underage kids up the arse or make them fellate you and threaten them afterwards to keep it quiet? Wow, if so, this religion deal is something else! A helluva lot of priests must be atheists then! Know summat, pete? You're saying that devout religious guys can't be like that, thereby implying that only us heathens could indulge in such atrocities. You really are the most dishonest and insulting person I've come across in years. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:59 AM

"ok shimrod, if you insist your belief in something from nothing via no one is not a faith position, you need to show us the evidence, either that it happened, or that it can happen."

As I understand it the current evidence for "something from nothing" comes from a study of the cosmic microwave background radiation (Google it, pete, and then you'll know as much as I know). And something that you seem unable to grasp is that I am not arguing from 'belief' - or much less, a position of 'faith' (perish the thought!) but I am quite happy to go along with the current scientific concensus. This may not be ideal but I don't have a degree in astrophysics.

Oh yes, and here's a thought. A few days ago you described your God as "immaterial" (i.e. having no substance) - so if He created the Universe, why doesn't that count as "something from nothing"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:05 AM

I would not suppose they were sincere believers , would you


    Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
    Thou shalt not kill.
    Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    Thou shalt not steal.
    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So, Pete, how do all these sincere believers who kill, torture, maim, steal and break round about every one of the above in the name of their god measure up then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:20 AM

I'll deal with the cut & paste bit.

Yes. Sometimes, in real debate, it may be pertinent to quote, but in support of your point, not being your point. You are lowering your debate technique to that of Keith A Hole of Hertford. He is the master of borrowing views and throwing his toys out of the pram when they are refuted. He cannot make his own view, being shallow, so he craves the comfort of repeating views he digs up off the internet.

You may be deluded pete, your outlook may be dangerous if enough shared it, but I have always assumed you to be able to support your ridiculous nonsense from your own mental process. If you don't, you end up as boorish as our resident apologist for the establishment.

I assume intelligent people quote in support, such as the above from the Gnomish one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 04:37 AM

"So, Pete, how do all these sincere believers who kill, torture, maim, steal and break round about every one of the above in the name of their god measure up then?"

Well, of course, Dave, you, and I (and Steve and Musket) know that religion has never really ever been about peace, love and a big, beardy (immaterial) bloke in the sky creating stuff - it's really about social control. Centuries ago, some genius realised that you could manipulate people's fear of death and the uncertainties of life by convincing them that you could intervene on their behalf with some big, beardy bloke (or blokes) in the sky who controls everything. The genius realised that he was on the right path when people started respecting him, awarding him social status, giving him stuff and even allowing him to bugger their children - just for intoning mumbo-jumbo and spouting pious platitudes - a nice little earner!

As human history progressed, and society became a bit more rational, it got harder and harder for the church to hang on to its power so it had to start torturing people and burning them at the stake etc. Now, of course, science has shown the invented religious world view to be complete balderdash and so the church is losing even more of that power. Most established religions have realised that their day is done but the fundamentalist fascists refuse to be beaten and a few of their more deluded followers, like pete, keep on rooting for them. Still, could be worse, pete could be a follower of Islamo-fascism and spend his time blowing people up rather than just spouting nonsense on here!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 10:36 AM

"when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before."

I'm guessing this is a reference to the appearance of life on earth. As it happens there 'was plenty there before'. Complex organic molecules such as amino acids existed in some abundance prior to the appearance of life, and there are plenty of reason to believe that organic self-replicating molecules could develop. I'm not a biochemist though so I don't know the ins and outs. We will find out one day.

In terms of creationism though, it's that the extremists want to teach that theirs is the only correct faith, and that EVERYONE who either doesn't believe their violent, nasty viewpoint is wrong. That's all the followers of other faiths (however many that there are) and everyone who doesn't believe who is alive and who has ever lived in human history. End of.

This astounding arrogance makes the actions of these people, whether it's a right-wing literalist Christian in America or the UK trying to deny climate change whilst forcing others to learn their lowest-common-denominator Abrahamic dogma, shorn of any nuance and subtly it might possess or inspire amongst more considered people, or whether it's some adherent of jihad flying a plane into an office block because he can't think beyond the literal, violent verses of an ancient book written in less enlightened times by people form another culture in another part of the world. They can't see beyond the lies and ludicrous interpretations of some internet pedlar of ignorance, and they don't question anything unless they're pointed to it by some anonymous writer of hate.

Creationism is a part of this sorry little clade of extremist stupidity, a dogma that abandons reason for the sort of blind, unquestioning faith that eschews the more refined tenets of it's religion (the teachings of Jesus had moved on considerably from the old testament gorefest) and rather appeals to a certain type of disaffected person.

As I've said before, religion does play a role in society and in some cases there is plenty secular society can learn from religions, but that's mostly to do with how we treat and interact with our fellow human beings, and concentrates on tolerance, community and compassion for others; all concepts that the literalists and extremists have abandoned and seem to actively despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:08 AM

It's a bit like the American Christian groups who gave money and support to the Ugandan private members' bill in Uganda to make being gay illegal. They were pushing originally for the death sentence.

Are THEY sincere believers pete? After all, they claim to be doing it because God wills it. He must have sent them an email or something.........

Stu. With the best will in the world, I couldn't take any lessons from any religion about tolerance. It's anathema to them. Tolerance doesn't accord with obedience, and without obedience, no religion has a purpose, let alone a congregation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM

"Stu. With the best will in the world, I couldn't take any lessons from any religion about tolerance."

I would say in their purest form many teachings are quite profound. I become involved in Tibetan Buddhism for a while, and also took an interest in Zen teachings and found both to be extremely, er, enlightening. I would say western medicine is some way behind these traditions i understanding how the mind works in some ways. The sermon on the mount is really quite a beautiful speech; how it's interpreted is highly individual but I would suggest that there is something in there for even the most hardened atheist (or creationist).

However, I was really talking in terms of engaging secular society in a way that means we rediscover wonder and awe in our lives, how we can learn from secular art and literature about how treat our fellow humans. This might mean taking some of the methods used by religion to impart wisdom and reinforced societal bonds, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:12 PM

Can't argue. But the sermon on the mount well may have some thought provoking ideas for any Christians too. Especially the many who could cite but constantly fail to understand it.

The Western medicine approach is alive and kicking in such areas. Placebo has a 20% success rate......

I think I was sloppy saying religion, I should have said organisations that call themselves religions. Organised religion is based on being on the bus grinning through the windows at the pedestrians, always room on top for more.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:02 PM

What i find hard to deal with is some of you seventh day Adventist bollocks like stu and shimrod trying to charge some of our comrades with dishonesty.

It is very clear that when I say that theirs is a faith position.
not a shred of evidence for a creator, say they, when there is not a shred of evidence that something popped into existence when there was [supposedly] absolutely nothing before.That is some of the most fecked up thinking I have come across in many a long day.

Even jerk the sailor would agree it's the biggest creationist myth around.

It does not even have the benefit of any kind of first cause joined up thinking and it is blindly accepted by the nobheads as faith, whatever scientific sounding spin they put on it.

If you think it can happen - I would really appreciate it if you could show us your evidence.
Whilst we are awaiting the coming of some self congratulatory evidence.I don't see anything illogical about saying that , anything that has a beginning, must have a sufficient cause.
that ,admittedly does not prove there is an eternal creator but sure seems a lot more logical than it all came from nothing via no one even the prick gnomeyo!.

If you want to go down the path of equating creation Christians with dangerous evil, I am more than happy to remind you of the evil of the Thatcher followers and believers in recent history.
On what basis do you call something evil?. Was it the gross gobshite Cameron who said that there was,no good or evil, just blind pitiless indifference?.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:52 PM

Or could it have been we are all in this together?.. well if we are, comrades, its is about time you all got have your goddam knees and started doing some thing, instead of posting crap to each other on self congratulatory smug threads like this....WAKE UP YOU SET OF sad sacks

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:10 PM

But you are doing exactly the same yourself. Join the sad sack society.

Don't get too carried away with the profundity of the Sermon On The Mount. Jesus is alleged to have said some divinely wise things therein, but he also spouted some egregious bollocks as well, particularly concerening [sic: heheh], not worrying about the morrow and turning the other cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll who is not a troll
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:26 PM

The last refuge of a gobshite shaw...quoting script from people/belief's you allegedly despise..