2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:59 PM

Jim, Peggy Seeger says that you have inherited SOME of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament. If she is right (and you say she is) then you are probably doing more to harm his reputation than anyone else.
Just a suggestion, but before clicking submit, why not pause and ask yourself "Would Ewan say this?"

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM

Apart from not having to respond directly to arguments, what do you hope to achieve Vic
Fairness.
Exchanges that address previous points that are raised.
A willingness to accept that the opinions of others are valid.
The insertion of humour when things get too heavy.
Addressing ideas in a way that can be free of rancour.
Seeing others treated fairly without comments that belittle them being made.
Discussion
Logical progression of ideas.
Clarity of thought and the way it is expressed.

All of these things.

I am phrasing my words carefully here so as to avoid confrontation. I am reaching out to achieve purposeful exchange which is the goal of interchange of ideas.
It seems that all the post at 12 Feb 18 - 02:40 PM is directed to me, but what I am expected to make of Gather your anti MacColl knockers while ye may - as the man said?
How does Amelioration Yeah explain or advance things?
I'm really trying hard here to see what is behind Like typos - a bit of pedantry goes a long way so that it can be made clear how I should respond.
Please read this in the peace making way it is intended because at the moment nothing is being achieved.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:40 PM

" really have nothing more to say to you or your ego "
Fair and even handed as ever Vic
Now try it in context
"and believe that the two statements are compatible and not contradictory. "
Like typos - a bit of pedantry goes a long way
Apart from not having to respond directly to arguments, what do you hope to achieve Vic
"amelioration"
Yeah
Gather your anti MacColl knockers while ye may - as the man said
A wordy post saying nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

It is very difficult to be able to discuss things with a mindset that believes that writing:-
Dick - I really have nothing more to say to you or your ego - go find somebody who is interested in your abusive self-promotion.
and:-
I have neither insulted, nor have I frothed or whined
and believe that the two statements are compatible and not contradictory.
How can discussion be possible when we are faced with such inconsistent, logically opposite statements? Does making barbed comments with each post strengthen the impact of the points that are being made? If it is felt that Dick is only interested in promoting himself, might it not be more effective to enunciate the reasons for this belief rather than making a bald statement that about him that can only be regarded as insulting?

In my opinion, there has been a considerable amelioration in postings emanating from Ballydehob of late.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM

"I was agreeing with Iains & Vics suggestion to "move on"
If I have misunderstood your point, I apologise
It's a little difficult to know where to move on to when nobody is responding to arguments (except with personal abuse and self-promotion) except with yet more urban legends about somebody who has been dead for nearly three decades
Like the clubs I used to visit- I'm here for the music I've spent most of my life being entertained by, nothing else
Dick - I really have nothing more to say to you or your ego - go find somebody who is interested in your abusive self-promotion
"First you whine I have not contributed, then you whine when I have."
If you believe personal abuse is contribution we work from different dictionaries Iains
I have neither insulted, nor have I frothed or whined
In three short postings you have have done little else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

Can't speak for Tom - he wasn't a resident" he was a regular attendor stop being silly.
Far away in australia is not meaning less, do you really not understand the meaning of the song that an eight year old would understand
MY ABILTIES AS A SINGER AND PERFORMER ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION, and whatever they are do not prevent me from being a critic of a musical policy that was flawed and proscrptive.
I do remember Peggy Seeger complimenting me... not on my singing but on on my concertina playing when she came to Bury st edmunds folk club, which was satisfying because i rated her as a very good song accompanist, she clearly had a different opinion to you, and since i respect her as a performer that matters to me more than your opinion.   Both Ewan andPeggy.. again passed complimentary remarks about my singing when i did a support for them at leicester phoenix theatre., as i respected them as performers this was pleasing.
Jim you do not understand , i am criticising a policy not Ewan and Peggy as performers

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:02 PM

It is not a discussion. It is a diatribe of frothing abuse to all who hold alternative views to your own.
First you whine I have not contributed, then you whine when I have.
If there are any children in the room it surely has to be you. Who is the idiot that keeps cleaning the spit off your dummy and handing it back?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:45 AM

"I would hate to disappoint him."
You don't Ian - I expected no less/more
"mighty carrol "
I come here in the hope of having a discussion on a subject I believe to be important - you come to close threads you obviously have no interest in and to present your 'spiteful child' persona
You've done one of those quite effectively
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM

I have followed many discussions on Ewan Maccoll with interest. I have made no contribution because I do not regard the man in any particularly positive light. He wrote some good songs. I do not care for his singing and he came across as an actor rather than performer, complete with affectations and convinced his way was the right way. As I did not know the man personally and thus was reluctant to make what would be a negative contribution. However the mighty carrol has spoken and I would hate to disappoint him.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:06 AM

"something that Tom Paley and Peggy were not doing lets face it"
Can't speak for Tom - he wasn't a resident
MacColl and Seeger gave their home over to researchers to use their books and recordings - they held weekly meetings in their home for getting on ten years as a response to a request to take classes
Nobody else in the revival ever did that
They and other Critics members gave seminars all over the country - and spoke at schools and colleges whenever they were asked
The Group co-operated with some of Britain's finest actors to mak two series of albums of poems and folk songs aimed at children - Poetry and Song and Voices - 22 albums in all
The Singers Club held public talks on the subject of song and music
I do know Tom took instrumental classes
Very few other clubs did any of this and those who did were usually influenced by MacColl and Seeger - Manchester and Birmingham, to name two
If you ever say them appear in public you'll know that their song introductions were an education in themselves
My whole point here has been to get a discussion around the masses work Ewan left behind based on encouraging singers and non-singers to lift the corner and look at what lies beneath the songs we sing - I'm digitising around 200 tapes worth of recordings of the MacColl working with younger and less experienced singers
What planet do you and your meaningless Australian song live on Dick?
You are entitled to put up any flaw you believe exists in any club policy for discussion, just as I am entitled to give an opinion on it.
So far, you haven't come anywhere near what MacColl, Seeger, The Critics, or the Singers Club was about and you have shown about as much interest as mot of the other contributors here - reducing the discussion to "Jim, has dug himself a hole,"
In your dreams Dick
Perhaps you'd like to put your name on the petition to close thids thread?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 09:43 AM

Jim
My sentence was
There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part in but formed opinions based on reading and media reports.

Your copy or copy and paste was
"There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part "

I was agreeing with Iains & Vics suggestion to "move on" not close the thread did you not understand that?.

Do you understand what you read and do you read your posts critically before you post them or are you like politicians and answer the quiestion you think should have been asked?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:40 AM

"Whether you like the practice, you respect it - if you don't like it, stay away"Jim Carroll
that was exactly what i decided to do, along with a lot of others,however that does not mean IM NOT ENTITLED TO POINT OUT THE FLAWS IN THE POLICY OF THE SINGERS CLUB.
on the other hand people like Cyril Tawney went around folk clubs and spoke to singers and in a pleasant way and persuaded many to look at and research and sing songs from their own cultural background[ something that Tom Paley and Peggy were not doing lets face it, they were not from appalaschia,Cyril used a much more effective and less dictatorial approach, I know I was there, and Cyril spoke to me and persuaded me to do just that.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:36 AM

"Jim I have no wish to argue with you"
You don't argue Hoot, you are no different from those who make your statement and run away - you are every bit as abusive as I have been, I have certainly not been "bitchy" (a nasty, sexist term which needs to be left in the sexist Jurassic Park where it belongs) - I have returned like-with-like
I come here hoping for honest, open, freindly, vigorous discussion - an exchange of ideas - that's what forums like these are supposed to be about
"which you/they did not witness and I did"
Likewise
My experience is just as valid as yours; minbe is more up-to-date, it covers a much longer period than and it is more detailed as it is not based on interpretations from afar, but on a long-time association with MacColl and personal experience of his work and ideas, much of which I was able to put to the test in thirty years of recording traditional singers
Mac'Coll's arguments o folk song made sense when put to a litmus test
I believe folk song needs that type of thought at present
"I have no influence in the closing of threads"
I agree entirely Kenny - then why support the suggestion that you and the proposer are not involved with, should be closed?
Sorry - didn't understand your other two points
"Jim please take note of the first verse of this next song."
I certainly hope you live up to your promise in the first line Dick
"Sweetheart, I'm bidding you fond farewell"
You have my full permission to ignore your promise to be mine!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:08 PM

"Are you so bereft of intelligent argument that you have to indulge in barrel scraping of this sort?"

Jim I have no wish to argue with you I see from the bitchy insulting replies that you make to about 99% of those that don't see things quite the way you do. It's a pointless excercise.

What I have done on several occasions is correct something that you have or somebody else has posted which you/they did not witness and I did. It's no big deal.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:11 PM

I have been out gigging, Jim, has dug himself a hole, he will soon be through to Australia.
Jim please take note of the first verse of this next song.
Sweetheart, I'm bidding you fond farewell
I would be yours some day
I'm bound for a new land, my fortune to try
And I'm ready to sail away

Far away in Australia
Soon will fate be kind
And I will be ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind

Oh, you can't leave me Jim Boy replied
I would not let you go
But I must leave you, he gently replied
If for only a while, you know

Far away in Australia
Soon will fate be kind
And I will be ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind

Now it's success or a failure
I will always be true
I'm proud in each day in a land far away
I've been choosing a home for you

Daily he waits at the old cottage gate
Watching the whole day through
Then one day a message from over the sea
And I'm hoping these words are true

Far away in Australia
Now us called the time
When I am ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:54 PM

1 I have no influence in the closing of threads
2 If you are going to quote someone do the decent thing and quote the whole sentence, being selective does you no favours
3 I agree with nowt free part if used responsibly and not in a contrary fashion

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:41 PM

"freedom of speech belongs to everyone"
Quite - why are you trying to close a thread then?
"There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part "
Not many, if any, but I have never attempted to close a thread down, whether I'm participating in it or (especially) when I'm not.
Nowt "free" about that Kenny - on the contrary
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:38 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM

"Yes and I hate to admit it but I agreed with Iains"
Why do people do this?
Neither you nor Iains have participated in this discussion yet you feel free to walk in and end it whenever it takes your fancy

Dear Jim
When people read thereads they dont neccessaily join in however
freedom of speech belongs to eveyone
There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part in but formed opinions based on reading and media reports.
Who are you to deny others the right to do the same thing?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 12:59 PM

"PS. I have no idea who the other 6 are that you refer too."
Another typo merchant rides again - perhaps it's time to form a club!!
Are you so bereft of intelligent argument that you have to indulge in barrel scraping of this sort?
Checked for typos - can't find any here - will try better next time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM

"Yes and I hate to admit it but I agreed with Iains"
Why do people do this?
Neither you nor Iains have participated in this discussion yet you feel free to walk in and end it whenever it takes your fancy
Pehasps it's time to make MacColl a no area along with "what is folksong"
This becomes ridiculous in the extreme
Why not start a petition?
Repetition Vic - is that really all you've got as a substitute for argument?
You really should be ashamed of yourself - you should have stuck to typos?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:40 AM

JIM.

My post:

"Not Isla Cameron, Isla sometimes deliberately sang American songs
because of Ewan's attitude, she freely admitted that."

Your reply:

"Then she deserved to be stopped for deliberately sabotaging club policy, whether you7 agree with it or not".

I only heard her at the Ballads & Blues club. We did not have that policy. Read the label.

PS. I have no idea who the other 6 are that you refer too.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:38 AM

Vic Smith
Yes and I hate to admit it but I agreed with Iains

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:17 AM

Does anyone think that the post at 11 Feb 18 - 11:05 AM could be regarded as bearing elements of all the repetitious circumlocution that has seemed endless on Mudcat for years (decades?) that I referred to in my previous post?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:05 AM

"Their opinions are valid but they must not be regarded as facts that cannot be disputed."
They can be disputed by those who know what they were Vic - that includes Vic's opionion
In the years I have been involved, the work has never been given a fair hearing, though the dozen or so albums, including the twenty-odd Poetry and Song albums speak for themselves - groundbreaking stuff
THe relaxation, voice, analysis and interpretation work still remains a mystery
So far it has been impossible to even discuss them
Carthy's 'How Folk Songs Should be Sung' was a spiteful distortion
If today' revival had left us with a healthy scene with some sort of future, all this work might have been superseded - the no-future shambles that we have left makes any effort to find a way out worthwhile
"it does not matter who was there first"
I've already said this
"Perhaps it is time to move on."
As with Steve Roud's reinvention of folk song, I think it worthwhile to continue with trying to bulldoze these garbage-mountains aside and get som decent discussion on this going - feel free toi join in but don't feel obliged to do so
"the obvious joke about a typo;"
An acknowledgement of the stupidity of reducing discussions to this level might repair that particular bit of damage
"YES!"
There - you've got the endorsement of someone who is so interested he hasn't bothered to post to this discussion so far
What more could you wish for?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:00 AM

Perhaps it is time to move on.

YES!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:04 AM

This, along with all the work done by others, Vic Gammon, Roy Plamer, Mike Yates.....

I will resist the obvious joke about a typo; a joke fades with constant repetition, though very many examples are still being provided by he who posted this; far more than those from another poster who he insults as 'dyslexic'. No, the mention of one of the correctly spelled names in the quotation brought this to mind:-

There are those who think that the experience of the Critics Group and the Singers Club have enriched their lives and they continue to benefit from it. Their opinions are valid but they must not be regarded as facts that cannot be disputed.

There are those who are of the opposite opinion; that it did more harm than good and this includes former members of CG and regulars at SC. Their opinions are valid but they must not be regarded as facts that cannot be disputed.

In the early 1990s I was interviewing Vic Gammon on my BBC Radio Sussex folk music programme Minstrels Gallery. Vic was leaving Sussex to take up an academic post in the north. His contribution to the local scene had been massive as a performer, singer, musician, organiser, dance band musician, researcher, journalist, broadcaster.... etc. The long interview was sort of valedictory broadcast for all that he had achieved.
At one stage I asked him for his opinion on three figures who are regarded as the pioneers of the developing scene in the UK - Henderson, Lomax and MacColl. I looked up my transcription of that interview and here's what Vic said in the relevant section:-

I think that Ewan MacColl was the greatest vernacular songwriter in Britain since Robert Burns. I have learned many of his songs and I often find myself singing them in clubs. He never lost that power, his later songs are amongst his best. I am less impressed by him as a performer and his approach to learning and improving singing has ultimately proved to be unhelpful. With the Critics Group and their self- and peer-opinions, he was leading those involved into a blind alley. The fact that this has not been replicated since is proof of that. There are plenty of workshops now; I run them myself; I go to others led by people that I feel have something for me, but they all have the attitude that says, "Don't take it as the Gospel truth but here's what I have got to offer you".

Vic Gammon's opinions are valid but they must not be regarded as facts that cannot be disputed.

All this, I write and quote to try and point out that it does not matter who was there first, or what any pro or anti statements attempt to prove or disprove. One thing is certain and that is that all the repetitious circumlocution that has seemed endless on Mudcat for years (decades?) will amount to nothing more than a difference of opinion from firmly entrenched positions.

Perhaps it is time to move on.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

"this was after she sang Single girl, are you denying this, Jim?"
I take it that as you only "understand" this you weren't there
Any proof of this Dick - or is it just another story?
That wasn't even a "rule" for The Singers Club" - it was expected from the residents but as I said, all clubs have policies
How many times have you banged on about not being able to use a musical instrument?
Whether you like the practice, you respect it - if you don't like it, stay away
We had to do this with folk clubs that stopped giving us folk songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:36 AM

Dick - I don't give a toss what happened half a century ago - I really don't
I am concerned about the overall contribution of MacColl, Seeger and all the others that put folk songs on the map for me and thousands of others, whatever mistakes thye might have made on the way
Would tyoy like me to put up the story of the little shit who put up phony "Traveller" recordings and came within a whisker of sabotaging one of the most important radio programmes that helped change the life and conditions of Britain's Travelling people?
Or how about the folkie superstar who used to throw up over the front row of club audiences as an encore, because of the amount of booze he'd consumed
None of these things ever happened at the Singers Club - yet you have defended both, as Jim Bainbridge has defended Bob Davenport's loutishness
The number of Robert Zimmerman's groupies who have banged on about MacColl's name change is countless - none seem to have noticed the ridiculousness of their criticism
It seems you have to have to be a member of a certain club to be able to get away with some things
Give us a break
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:40 AM

I also remember visiting groombridge folk club about 1970, this club was run by IsobelSutherland, the booked artists were some members of the critics group including terry yarnell, whilst they were all good singers ,in my opinion they chose some unsuitable songs, this club was a club that encouraged children to perform, the guest artists did not seem to have a clue about whether the songs they sang were suitable for children, imo a classic example of not knowing about performance. apologies for thread drift

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:33 AM

Jim you were not the only one who was around at that time, hoot, VIC SMITH and I were all around Hoot and I know that it was different form how you describe, I understand Lisa Turner was told by Ewan publicly in front of the whole club that we have a rule in the club, the rule is that singers must sing songs from their own background, this was after she sang Single girl, are you denying this, Jim?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:26 AM

"you see Jim i was there before you."
What's up with your numeracy people? - 1962 comes before 1966 on my calendar
It's not important who was here first - it's the work that has been put in in the period that counts
Proper research beats "one enchanted evening - across a crowded room" any day I don't give a toss whether people like MacColl's singing, or took to him during 'Brief Encounters'
I have my own personal experiences which I'm happy to compare with those who knew him well, but I say what I know to be the case as far as I knew it.
What concerns me is that MacColl and the CG put in a decade's worth of work on folk song which, as far as I am concerned, has no precedents
This, along with all the work done by others, Vic Gammon, Roy Plamer, Mike Yates.... and all those who took folk song seriously, holds clues to an extremely important art form
It should not be necessary to scramble over mountains of garbage such as this in order to discuss it - yet it happens each time the subject comes up.
What are you people afraid of?
If MacColl and the rest of us were wrong 0- why can't we state our case instead of this personal mudslinging (in this case, at a long-dead corpse)
If that's not ghoulish in the extreme, I don't know what is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:21 AM

I remember Ralph May in the early 1960s on the south London folk scene. He used to be accompanied by his brother who was also his 'agent' and he was as obnoxious and awkward as Ralph was friendly and amenable.

Sorry, following a thread drift.....

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:07 AM

ralph may , typo apologies

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:52 AM

i even remember the days in 1966 when ralph mctell sang blues not his own songs, mainly blind blake songs and that his real name is ralph maytand that he named himself after blind willie mctell, you seeJim i was there before you.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:52 AM

"Not Isla Cameron, Isla sometimes deliberately sang American songs because of Ewan's attitude, she freely admitted that."
Then she deserved to be stopped for deliberately sabotaging club policy, whether you7 agree with it or not
I refused to sing at clubs that asked me not to sing contemporary or politiical songs, not because I agreed with them but because I respected their right to have a policy
Behaviour such as this is typical of the shit thrown around in the revival
"1969, you were the new kid on the block."
I came onto the scene around the time of my 21st birthday - much earlier than 1969 unfortunately
As I said, I heard Ewan and Peg live a couple of years later, got to know them and stayed with them for week-ends around 1965, lived with them for a month when I moved to London, spent a couple of years in the Critics Group, was part of running the Singers for about six years, interviewed MacColl over a six month period, have spent about eight years digising and annotation nearly ten years worth of Critics Group meetings recordings and two years ago spent a month putting together two hour long programmes on MacColls life, which included three dys interviewing Peggy - The Princess Louise half a century ago - what the **** do you know about MacColl?
You haven't left the starting line yet Hoot
Stick around
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:47 AM

the song was single girl or single boy. Jim, you need to show a little respect to others

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:44 AM

did personally witness Ewan not allowing an English girl to sing an American song but that was around eight years before your time" I understand this was lisa turner a fine blues singer and guitarist, who wasc told afterwards publicly the rule.
you see Jim,I have been on the uk folk scene since 1965 since the age of 14, not as a profesional performer but as a singer and visitor to folk clubs a little bit longer than you. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:36 AM

Jim,

Not Isla Cameron, Isla sometimes deliberately sang American songs because of Ewan's attitude, she freely admitted that.

"I hope nobody ever digs up something I did nearly sixty years ago" ????

Much of what you constantly put down took part in those years.

1969, you were the new kid on the block.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:16 AM

Jim, Vic, you're welcome! There is a Shortened version which misses out the introductory "back story", and this isn't as effective as this "long" version. It's certainly a demonstration of the fact that you don't need a "perfect" voice to give an effective performance!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:07 AM

Thanks, John. For some reason that Youtube link did not come up on my internet search for his name. I liked the gentle underplayed way he sang it. It puts the song in a different light. To me it's a fine song whoever sings it.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:04 AM

Thanks John - nice to hear it again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:58 AM

Vic: here you go:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mAT-4FdP4

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

'September Song'.....Walter Houston's beautiful version....
This sounds intruiging, but I cannot find any link to it. Can anyone help me?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:19 AM

" this would indicate that you didn't attend the Singers club for the first eight years of it's existence. "
Not sure I was ever at The Ballads and Blues, but I certainly visited the Pindar of Wakefield and the Boys Club in Red Lion Square whenever I was in London
I moved there in 1969
I first saw Ewan and Peg at the Spinners Club in Liverpool in the early sixties
" I did personally witness Ewan not allowing an English girl to sing an American song "
Isla Cameron maybe?
I hope nobody ever digs up something I did nearly sixty years ago
The policy of singing songs from your own background was aimed at moving audiences away from getting singers to move away from trying to sound like Woodie and Huddy and open up their own repertoires - it was Lomax's idea originally
It led to a healthy, genuine revival of all folk songs, in my opinion
When he first met Ewan and Bert they were both singing American songs with pseudo- American accents
Happy to be described as "intransigence and argumentative" by someone I respect as much as Peggy - I agree what she says about "tunnel vision" and its values
Would the revaival had the same "tunnel vision" when it came to choosing what toput on in their clubs - it might not have led to today's mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM

From Peggy Seeger's letter to Living Tradition (https://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm)

The editor wants to know "Who are Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie?" They were members of the Critics Group for most of the life of that group. They were two of the most loyal, industrious and intelligent members by far. It is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated. Most of the collectors who've done that have had a kind of tunnel vision, without which their work would not have been as productive. They stuck their necks out and their heads are getting chopped off. They are in good company.

Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament

Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie have inherited SOME of that. What does that say about MacColl?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM

Jim,

Unless the date 1969 in line five of your above posting is another typo, this would indicate that you didn't attend the Singers club for the first eight years of it's existence. Neither if my memory is correct did you ever attend the Ballads & Blues association club from 1956/7 to 1961.

That is a total of about twelve years that Ewan and Peggy were performing together which you never witnessed personally.
However you are still ready to criticise/insult anyone here who did know them in those years and relate their own experiences. I did personally witness Ewan not allowing an English girl to sing an American song but that was around eight years before your time.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:47 AM

Sorry - missed this - swept up in a day of concertinas and pipse)
"I have stated my objective view of MacColl"
A few brif views cross a crowded room is hardly objective
You and your bunch of ghouls sally forth, garlic, crucifixes (and typos) firmly in hand, each tie the name "MacColl" is uttered to make sure his ideas are never given an airing
Five years at the Singers Club - I attended it from 1969 up to Ewan's death, and a few times when Peggy revived it.
I have no idea what the "professional" bit is about - I knew very few of them, I am certainly not one of them
"fallow"
Another typo raises it's head - "fellow" of course
My point stands - I know of nobody whp received the mindless kicking MacColl is still getting from other enthusiasts - he never turned on others the way they turned on him
Davenport, in my experience was a boorish lout who shouted down people he didn't agree with at public meetings and spoke loudly over singers who did what he didn't approve of - I gave my examples
Personally, I didn't lie his "when in doubt, shout" approach to singing, and if I wanted to hear an out-of-tune rendition of 'September Song' I'd dig out Walter Houston's beautiful version, but that's a personal taste thing.
I am not a performer - I sometimes sing publicly, but not as often as I would like
I believe that when I do, I should do it with respect both to the songs I am singing and to the people who have the good manners and tolerance to listen
I stopped going to folk clubs when that stopped happening
You describe me as nasty - perhaps you should read your own postings
"name me a group who was a copy of them,"
Around the time I stopped visiting clubs widely you couldn't throw a stone without hitting one that wasn't full of mini chirs trying to sound like on superstar group or another or trying to copy Martin Carthy's hiccoughy phrasing or intrusive guitar accompaniments, or Joanie clones, or Dylan doublers....
It gave justification to all those outsiders who claimed that "all folk songs sound the same" - in many cases they did.
Nowhere did I come across anybody being forbidden to sing songs from anywhare
We had a club policy that encouraged singers to sing songs from their own backgrounds - but that was for the club residents
All clubs have a policy of sorts - I and others were asked on numerous occasions not to sing political songs - as were Ewan and Peggy at some clubs
Some clubs didn't even like any contemporary songs "we are strictly traditional"
I sing Irish and Scots songs and a couple of American ones - if they Anglicise
If they don't, I don't sing them, not because I have ever been "forbidden£", but because they never work in phony 'mid Atlantic', or 'Oirish', or 'Jimmie Glaswiegan' - they sound what they are - false when I can't sing them in my own accent
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:35 AM

Jim Carroll you have just illustrated your complete lack of understanding of the Watersons music , they were a unique hamony group that had Mike weaving up and down in an unconventional way that has never been copied, they also had an special music that is particular to families singing together, your pontification has only illustarted your lack of understanding and portrays musical ignorance

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:18 PM

Jim you are being silly billy again, wannabe waterson choirs?, nonsense name me a group who was a copy of them, the other harmony groups were very different examples english tapestry, songwainers,wilson family valley folk, please stop talking codswallop. i can only remeber a few carthy clones ,most poeople using open tunings played in their own style.
anyway jim carroll whoever made the rule at the singers club, it was a flawed rule because it meant english or scottsh people could not sing woody guthrie songs at the singers club, what was also ridiculous was that peggy and tom were allowed to sing songs that were not from their cultural background, they were not from appalachia, the whole thing was an exercise in misguided control

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:12 AM

Jim c- don't think we'll ever agree on this! I have stated my objective view of MacColl, with my view of some of his faults. I just can't abide your canonisation of the man. I reject your charge of 'unprofessional nastiness' by me- this is totally unfounded and intended to provoke, which is your style, really.

Nor am I a professional, and although I have been paid for my music, it has never been my whole living- never wanted it either! and I can't rival you for nastiness- you say you served five years at the Singers' Club- you deserved more....

Another misnomer- please do not describe me as a 'fallow (sic) PERFORMER'
. That's the nub of this, really - what I took from Bob Davenport was his music with the Rakes, of course, but also his desire to blend into any company, and like Bob, have always tried to be a catalyst for the music rather than a PERFORMER.

Yes i've done concerts and folk clubs, but i think my real place in the movement is in such as the 'open bar' informal song/music/story sessions we did for five years in Leitrim, or which Rosie Stewart still does so well at her singing/music sessions at McHugh's in Glenfarne, Leitrim..
Bob excelled at the social 'public bar' situation, very often well away from any 'folk' context! I recall one night Bob & the Rattlers returning north after a concert at the concert hall in Harrogate. We stopped for a pint in a lively pub a few miles up the road. We chatted to the locals about where we'd been- they asked us to give them a tune. What resulted was a memorable night playing for the 'folk' who knew nothing about 'folk.
We were also once chucked out of a pub in Glencoe for playing 'dirty tunes'- I'll leave you to ponder that one, so it didn't always work! (Bob wasn't there but Donal Maguire was..)
.

Bob Davenport guided us all that evening & many times since and I'll be eternally grateful to him.

You may call yourself a performer, I don't know you, and MacColl also was more interested in the PERFORMANCE of the music he was part of, but I never have been and that' s all I have to say on the matter, except that you become a bit less abrasive and start listning to folk intstead of lecturing them.
nb Bob is fine & living in London, as always
   

I'm NOT a performer