2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:52 AM

Hasn't stopped you in your one-sided moderation of me Vic
I know I shouldn't but let me try one more time.
I think that we need to have a look at what is meant by 'insults'. Let's make it simple by restricting ourselves to these most recent exchanges between Bryan and Jim. Now we know their attitudes are miles apart an that there is not much likelihood of them agreeing on this subject, and others for that matter
I have pointed out the Bryan has been pretty heated in his comments, but to my mind he stays the right side of the line.
Now let's look at the post at 14 Feb 18 - 07:33 PM. If two sentences were removed, I would say that the post was acceptable. However, look at these two questions:-
What are you people on Bryan?
What kind of sick behaviour is this?
It is these unnecessary interjections that spoil things. The first suggests that he (and unspecified others) are drug takers. The second implies that some unpleasant mental attitudes or conditions are involved. These false derogatory jibes do not put you in a good light and detract from the power of the case that you are making.
It is this constrant drip of defamatory comments that throw a smokescreen over understanding the points that you are trying to put over.
You say that you object to my "one-sided moderation" of your comments. I would really like you to see that this is because you are by far the main perpetrator. Time and again these rude barbs appear in your posts.
In recent posts you have mentioned being asked to give presentations at Irish universities and of writing a critique of The Critics Group (a difficult task for anyone I would think). How did you express yourself in those situations? If differently, then why?
Earlier in the thread you were advised by someone to check what you have written before clicking "Submit message" and it was very good advice.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:34 AM

"I read Peggys biography,and much asrespect her as a songwriter musican and singer, I did not find it as intersting, Ewan imo had a more varied career having been involved in hunger marches,and protests against enclosure of land to prevent rambling, theatre, writing plays as well as performing, which imo made a more interesting read"Jim do you agree or not what is your opinion of theTWO biographies

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM

"Jim your regular and consistent insulting of people on this forum diminshes the good side of your character your willingness to help others"
Don't be yso-self-righteous Dick - not with your serial behaviour af abusing and insulting people with no provocation at all - members and non-members alike.
It wouldn't take too much of an effort to provide a string of examples
Leave it to Vic - he does it far better than you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:51 AM

Jim your regular and consistent insulting of people on this forum diminshes the good side of your character your willingness to help others. I read Peggys biography,and much asrespect her as a songwriter musican and singer, I did not find it as intersting, Ewan imo had a more varied career having been involved in hunger marches,and protests against enclosure of land to prevent rambling, theatre, writing plays as well as performing, which imo made a more interesting read

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:08 AM

" I would produce it "
Should be "I would produce the correspondence on it"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:53 AM

"It is the job of the moderators to police Mudcat and I am not one of them"
Hasn't stopped you in your one-sided moderation of me Vic
Never mind - call it an experiment on my part - turned out as I knew it would
Bryan - I gave my position on the Walter album - it was exactly as I said
If I was the slightest bit interested in what you thought I would produce it - I am not
It was a piece of venomous spite to put it uop here anyway - it was meant to malign our work with Walter which confirms there id no place for him in today's revival
"I asked you whether you couldn't see that some people might be pissed off at him for that. You haven't replied."
Of course I can in a revival that considers itself above criticism - plenty of evidence of that here, if further were needed
"I haven't got access to that book so I asked you about it."
I found using a book you hadn't read unworthy of response - however, I have you the many comments Peggy made on Ewan' influence and abilities - including her describing him as a "tyrant" (which I as a member who received the sharp end of Ewan's tongue on occasion, which she never did) somewhat of an overstatement - she's still as prone to such as she ever was.
The book contains no condemnation of Ewan - some political criticism, but that's it - I had those with him.
Using the widow of a long-dead man to continue to dig him up and kick him is as vicious as it gets, especially when you haven't ever read what she has to say and prefer one-liners to make your accusations
Peggy said what she said about Ewan as an artist in the sections i put up - in full - not "extracts" as you snidely suggest
You really do confirm everything I've heard about you
Both Peggy's autobiography and Jean Freedman's study of her are a must for understanding the work of Ewan and Peggy, though Jean's is far more analytical and objective -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:20 AM

No, Bryan. It's on the list of the books that I want to buy but it hasn't come to the top yet.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:13 AM

You don't happen to have Peggy's book do you Vic?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 06:10 AM

I trust Vic is not going to ignore this one - Dick's behaviour fades into insignificance after this display of viciousness
It is the job of the moderators to police Mudcat and I am not one of them. I am not prepared to take the on-going role of unofficial referee. I have made an effort to bring the qualities that I mention in a post 12 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM but this behaviour has become ingrained in some Mudcat threads which is a pity because it lowers the enjoyment and spoils the discussion. In fairness to Bryan, I can read anger, outrage and frustration in his recent posts, but nowhere does it tip over into insult though my view would be that he is getting into a situation that has no easy resolution.

If anybody would like a copy of my summing up of the Critics Group, as limited as it is, they are welcome to a copy
I think that I would find these useful to read though I would suggest that sending them by PM or email might be better than posting them here.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:37 AM

How ****** dare you - fail to co-operate with what exactly?

It seems that Topic felt that these later recordings failed to show Walter at his best and so Jim and Pat withdrew from the project, leaving Topic with a single CD that was without notes or documentation.
Michael Yates
Almost two years ago, after parting with Topic, Jim and Pat asked me if I would be interested in releasing the 'second' CD - and I readily agreed. We exchanged a letter or two, but they then got involved in a protracted move to Ireland which seemed to take up most of the summer. I phoned them several times afterwards, but it seemed clear that they had lost motivation for the project.
Rod Stradling

I haven't got time for this fight. You'd better take it up with Yates and Stradling.

Dig up thirty odd year old slanderous stories to malign his character
Could you produce ONE example of where I have ever done that?

I hope you people never have the ****** nerve to denigrate MacColl again, after this display
Could you produce an example of where I have done that either in this thread or at any other time?

YOU quoted MacColl as saying
"I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"
I asked you whether you couldn't see that some people might be pissed off at him for that. You haven't replied.

YOU quoted Seeger as saying
Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner.
I haven't got access to that book so I asked you about it. You have been evasive to the point of not acknowledging that the critique exists.

You have described this as a display of viciousness.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:33 AM

This vicious, grave dancing discussion seems to have gone as far as any discussion on MacColl is ever likely to go on this forum
Like all our other field-recordings and research, our own collection will soon end up in an Irish educational institute to be used by students in their Worlk-music department - hopefully more of it will go on-line - this time with the interviews.
Walter Pardon's and Ewan's and the Revival section will be accompanied by the note - "this is what the future of folk song could and should have been about - it stands more than a chance of surviving in Ireland than it does back home"
The Critics Group ended (amicably) at the beginning of 1971 when a number of members led by Ewan, went off to form a theatrical Group - it lasted a year and broke up far more acrimoniously than any disputes that ever took place in The Critics Group - we weren't part of that break-up, so we never quite understood what happened.
Over a decade later, Karl Dallas arranged a symposium to celebrate Ewan's life and work - a number of Folk and Theatre figures from Ewan's past turned up to pay tribute - Alan Lomax, Hamish Henderson. Theatre Workshop's Howard Goorney, Leslie Shepherd, some of the old mass-trespassers.... and an array of singers and musicians - a truely memorable, shit-free week-end for Pat and I.
A few weeks before the event I was asked by Ewan and Peg, to speak on The Critics Group - in the circumstances surrounding the break-up I was, to say the least, petrified and only agreed to do so if I could interview previous members of the Critics Group and get their impressions of the experience - I did the best I could to a somewhat divided audience
Like all the talks Pat and I have given, it was fairly carefully scripted.
If anybody would like a copy of my summing up of the Critics Group, as limited as it is, they are welcome to a copy
It seems the only way to discuss MacColl and his work afer three decades since his death, is off-line - that says something about someone or something!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:54 AM

what makes you think i was a dressing you , i never mentioned anyone by name, I HAVE NEVER BEEN VIOLENT TOWARDS ANYONE, OLD WOMEN, OLD MEN, GINGER HAIRED PIPSQUEAKS, DARK HAIRED LIVERPUDLIANS, YOUNG WOMEN YOUNG MEN BLACK PEOPLE ESKIMOS or anybody at all, both you and vic are barking up the wrong tree. i have never met you,so why would i be adressing you i have no idea or interest in your appearance

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:43 PM

"not be a small ginger haired pipsqueak or an old man"
Missed this - gem - gets even better
I have had dark hair al my life - now have a fine hair of grey
You really can get nothing right "except ageist abuse)
Jay-******-sus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:33 PM

"Your failure to cooperate was also part of it."
How ****** dare you - fail to co-operate with what exactly?
We withdrew from the project, which hadn't even reached the "notes" stage because Topic had rejected what we wished to do - it was no longer our project
We still have Mike's letter requesting permission to use some of our material, which we readily gave
Mike's finished album bore no resemblance whatever to what we wanted to do and at not time did he ask for our co-operation other than our permission to use some of our recordings
We said from the beginning that we did not want "another Walter Pardon album" simply because we felt that Bill Leader's and Mike's were as good as it gets.
What are you people on Bryan?
You and your mates weigh in on the reputation of s singer who has been dead 29 years
Dig up thirty odd year old slanderous stories to malign his character, despite a plea from his widow in the article you linked to that it was time this sort of ghoulish behaviour stopped
You then take the words of his widow (out of context) to malign my character by accusing me of "intransigence", yet no one of you bunch has moved a single inch from your original position on two long threads despite being unable to respond to agruments
Kicking a fellow folk enthusiast who has been dead for thirty years is sick enough - now you appear to have gone viral and have dragged in our efforts to produce a picture of the most important traditional singer for the folksong public.
What kind of sick behaviour is this
I hope you people never have the ****** nerve to denigrate MacColl again, after this display
"I haven't got the book. I'm relying on what you can tell me and what the quote you put up from Peggy Seeger says"
So you chose to use a book you haven't read to attack me and MacColl - get's better and better with every posting !!
No wonder the revival is in the mess it it if this is anything to go by.
I trust Vic is not going to ignore this one - Dick's behaviour fades into insignificance after this display of viciousness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:04 PM

The MacColl bio is very interesting, it covers his years in the thirties his work in theatre and his thoughts on performing and songwriting, it is excellent

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM

I've explained what happened to my posting
You also said I'll send it again if I decide to be arsed
You still haven't.

You're right, it wasn't just the recording quality. Your failure to cooperate was also part of it.
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm

I haven't got the book. I'm relying on what you can tell me and what the quote you put up from Peggy Seeger says. What you have quoted from the book is very interesting but doesn't seem to constitute the "long critique of him as a person and an artist" that she says will not be "what you expected". I am relying on your honesty to tell us what the book says.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:57 PM

The post at 14 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM. Come on, Dick we are trying to move away from insults - all of us

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM

It’s a good letter, EM comes out of it well, as does JC. Certainly paints a more welcoming version of events than JC’s more spiked defence. I may just buy that book of hers. And dare I say, the MacColl biography (not) being discussed here...

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

none of the above alters the fact that i was criticising a flawed club policy,not criticising Ewan as a performer, what does Jim do ..he replies with piffle about me threatening him, tell you what Jim take me to court about this threatening behaviour,you will be a laughing stock, further more if i was to threaten anyone, which i have no intention of doing it of whatever size it would certainly not be a small ginger haired pipsqueak or an old man

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:16 PM

"Can anyone let me know the date"
It was written at the end of the nineties, if I remember rightly
It was part of the response to a letter/article I wrote entitled 'Where Have All the Folksongs Gone' so it should be searchable under that title
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:58 PM

I have only just followed the link that Bryan posted on 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM to a letter from Peggy Seeger to Living Tradition. The date is not given but it was when she was living in Asheville, North Carolina. Can anyone let me know the date? Bryan only quoted the last part of the letter but reading all of it, I must say that I was impressed by it for a number of reasons. It is well written and it sticks to the matter in hand; it is open and honest. She does not attempt to cover up things where she considers that she was in the wrong or that she made mistakes. It comes over as a truthful, straightforward and sincere
I can imagine that it was not an easy thing to write, but when someone is prepared to admit faults and regret them, it somehow manages to make the reader regard any claims of achievements as being equally free from bluster or falsehood.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:28 PM

Maaaaaybe it was this bit I missed Bryan

Appendix III The Critics Group And The British Folk Song Revival
In 1968, Ewan wrote:
If any single event can be said to have been instrumental in launching the British folk music revival it was the BBC?s broadcasts in 1952 of the series of radio programmes known as Ballads and Blues. Prior to these programmes, the emphasis had been on North American folk songs. The knowledge that there existed in Britain a huge corpus of exciting traditional songs and ballads was confined to ; mere handful of individuals. By presenting English, Scots and Irish songs in an historical and social context, these programmes transformed the situation overnight and triggered what was to become known as the folk song revival, the most extraordinary bout of public music-making Britain had ever known. It was the nineteenth-century industrial folk songs that made the first impact. These songs evoked an immediate response from working-class audiences throughout Britain, particularly among young people. Soon scores of new, young singers appeared on the scene and the audience began to reflect other class orientations
Since those early days the revival repertoire has been extended to include pastoral songs and ballads, urban broadsides, forebitters (recreational songs of the seamen), shanties (work songs of the seamen), regional songs, contemporary songs in the folk idiom and political and educational songs.
The bedrock on which the revival stands is the folk song club movement. At the present time, the number of these clubs is variously estimated at figures ranging from 800?1000, with a minimum membership of about 750,000. Almost from the very beginning of the revival there has raged a debate on the definition of folk music, a debate which (in its simplest form) has been reduced to a struggle
11, Peggy adds:
In actual fact, Ewan was the instigator, the facilitator and the person who held the group together. He poured all his training from Theatre Workshop into the group and worked like a demon when The Festival was on each year. He had no Joan Littlewood to take his script and bring it alive?he did that himself, training the singers into actors and sitting each night taking notes to bombard us all with at the end of the performance. The members of the group proved themselves worthy of the task and of the scripts. They all had 9-to-5 jobs (which in reality are 7-to-7 jobs), and everyone poured their All into the common cause. Ewan was _ a brilliant if tyrannical teacher and he and I learned and developed along with everyone else. I took over the teaching of accompaniment techniques, sightreading, script typing and duplicating, stage managing and general organisation. We carried many of these techniques into our songwriting and concert work after the group broke up.
By the time it dispersed in 1971, the Group had said hello and goodbye to three or four dozen members. Among them were: Frankie Armstrong, Bob Blair, Brian Byrne, Bobby Campbell, Jim Carroll, Alistair Clare, Aldwyn Cooper, Ted Culver, Jenny and Tony Dunbar, John Faulkner, Richard Hammerschlag,Richard Humm, Allan and Maggie Ives, Luke Kelly, Donneil Kennedy, Enoch Kent, Sandra Kerr, Hamish MacColl, Gordon McCulloch, Pat MacKenzie, Jim and Sally O?Connor, Charles Parker, Brian Pearson, Mike Rosen, Buff Rosenthal, Dave Smith, Suzannah Steel, Dennis Turner, Jack Warshaw . . . and many others.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:05 PM

"Doesn't seem to fit the brief bits you've quoted."
That was Peggy's dedication to Ewan and hius work - perhaps you can enlighten me on the bits I missed
"The rest of my points go unchallenged. Good."
You really are the pits, aren't you
I've explained what happened to my posting - much easier, (if not particularly honest) to pretend I have no answers
For the record - Topic did not "reject" our recordings as such - they decided they didn't want to do what we wished to - give an in-context picture of Walter rather than just a collection of songs
The recordings were, as all our recordings are, "kitchen quality" with ticking clocks - at no time have we ever aimed at putting our recordings out commercially - not what we did.
They did suggest that, as some recordings were made when Walter was getting on in years, perhaps it didn't show him at his best - probably true, but again, not the point of our involvement in the project
It's somewhat snide of you to concentrate on the recording quality - just as you concentrated on Peggy's suggestion of my(and Ewan's "intransigence" while ignoring her qualification of that statement
As I said before, I have no problem with her suggestion in that (ignored) context, particularly when the comparison was with the feller she wrote about in the book extract I have just put up   
Now - how about all those bits I missed Bryan - won't hold my breath though
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:44 PM

It's not which bits I mean, it's which bits Peggy Seeger meant when she said "Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner.
Doesn't seem to fit the brief bits you've quoted.

The rest of my points go unchallenged. Good.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

"I imagine you have that book, why not give it a read?"
Read it Bryan - I'm sure you don't mean this bit
Jim Carroll
The tributes feel good -the degree awarded to Ewan after his death by the University at Salford, the tree planted in his honour in Russell Square in London, the plaque placed in Salford near Coburg Street (which has now vanished), the letters I get, the requests for his songs, the enemies who will always be there for both earned and unearned reasons, our mutual friends with whom I am still in touch . . .
Coda
I love Ewan MacColl and I miss him daily, even though it’s twelve years since he died and I now have a new partner. Writing this book has been hard for me. I shared so many of my best days with him. He filled my life and our house with ideas and singing and if there is anything about him that I miss more than anything else it is the sound of that dark chocolate tenor . . . and waiting for him to haul up another creation from that fountain that was capped only by death. The songs in this book- axes and scalpels, war cries against war, silk purses and cleverly wrought sow’s ears—are now as surely his as they are yours. They cannot be taken from him as were his beloved Theatre Workshop and the Radio-Ballads.
Ewan: This book is my last material gift to you, from your companera who wants it to be known that whoever, whatever you really were, you did manage to become the best part of what you wanted to be.
Peggy Seeger North Carolina, 2001

I replied to the rest of your points, but the message did not get sent = it's happening aa lot with this forum
I'll send it again if I decide to be arsed replying to points I've answered a dozen times in the past
It really doesn't seem woth the effort

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:47 AM

".... What makes your opinions more important?"
Who said it was
You did.

and what's that got to do with urban myths?
Haven't a clue.

From what I have heard, Topic rejected you recordings of Walter Pardon because they weren't of sufficient quality to do him justice and they had other sources.
You can hear unaccompanied traditional songs at many clubs in the UK if you'd care to visit, not just ours. We don't impose standards on our floor singers. Some clubs do to the point of not having any at all on guest nights. That doesn't strike me as a folk club, more like a concert but each to their own. I would rather people didn't use crib sheets but I'm going to encourage them not to rather than drive them from my door.

Go count the number who walked away
I can't Jim, they aren't here. You're the only one I know about. I can only count the ones who stayed and stuck with what they believe in. Some of them are on this thread.
You don't feel that calling me self-satisfied and complacement might not be insulting?

You aren't really suggesting that all's well on the folk scene after all that has disappeared are you, Bryan?
That wasn't the question and is far too big a subject to go off into here. The point was that MacColl said "It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song. Do you honestly not see that the people that was directed at (basically everyone involved in the UK folk scene at the time) might be offended by that? MacColl said it forty years ago and you've been saying it ever since.

Then why have you and others concentrated on the out-of-context "intransigence"
It wasn't out of context, I quoted the entire paragraph including everything Seeger said about you. You were lambasting people for not taking part in reasoned discussion when you totally refuse to do so yourself and even Seeger describes you as intransigent and argumenative and Ewan possibly even more so.

Incidentally, this was part of a letter Peggy sent to The Living Tradition
I know, Jim. I quoted from it and gave a link to it. Here it is again.
https://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm

She also said "By the way, I'm just finishing up a book of his songs. 200 of them. 'The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook' (Music Sales, autumn 2000). Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner. Information is on my website: www.pegseeger.com.
I imagine you have that book, why not give it a read?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM

"you however have consistently insulted people on this forum"
I give as good as I get Dick - though some people choose to ignore that fact
I've never threatened anybody
Go away - finished with dialogues with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:27 PM

well come on lets have the quote, so you claim i threatened you phsically once i say it wasmeant as a joke , you however have consistently insulted people on this forum over and over, it is a shame because you have a lot to offer ,you have been helpful to people on this forum passing on info on all kinds of folk related topics, but your hasty temper diminishes your helpfulness

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:33 PM

"please find this quote ,"
We've been through this several times Dick - noot by me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM

"Dick reached his height when he threatened physical violence if ever I came into his home territory" please find this quote , i do remeber something on these lines which was meant as a joke, however there no emoticons on this forum to make it clear

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM

"Lot's of people have said things about MacColl. What makes your opinions more important?"
Who said it was and what's that got to do with urban myths?
"And you still don't understand why some people got pissed off with him?"
When we have to put our archive in Limerick to attempt to get Walter's recordings out to the public and when we have to take a gamble on whether we will come home from a folk song having heard a folk song - it makes sense to me
Just read the viciousness when 'What is folk song' comes up on this forum, or count the number of complaints about feeling not welcome when you sing an unaccompanied songs
How about the description of "elitism" when you suggest a basic standard, or the defence of crib-sheets?
Go count the number who walked away from the scene when standards took a nose-dive and the choice was taken away
Your somewhat self-satisfied - "if you want to hear a good, well-sung folk song come to our club" summed the complacency for me Bryan.

You aren't really suggesting that all's well on the folk scene after all that has disappeared are you, Bryan?
"(Actually, I quoted more context than your quote in red.)"
Then why have you and others concentrated on the out-of-context "intransigence" as if I was the only one to display such a characteristic

Incidentally, this was part of a letter Peggy sent to The Living Tradition after she had moved to Nort Carolina after Ewan's death
"Ewan MacColl was one step nearer to being a folksinger than I; having been brought up in a Scots community in Salford. He is a man who is a perfect example of the old saying "stick your neck out and someone will chop your head off". I didn't know, until after he died, just how many enemies and ex-post-facto critics we had made. WE. Please remember that he and I were in this together and you can now aim your missiles at someone who is still here and who is quite articulate on the matter. Pity more folks didn't have the courage and the knowledge to talk with him while he was alive. He was actually an interesting, approachable person and was happy to talk to anyone who approached with a less-than-hostile attitude. I learned so much from those years.... and, of course. I am biased! I am also fed up with people who criticise him with only hearsay and second (third, fourth, umpteenth) knowledge on which to base their opinions."
Sums all this up for me perfectly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

""I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"

I find it hard to believe anyone could actually make such statements and believe them. You would need some ego and level of conceit to pontificate in such a way.
It rather puts me in mind of the BBC radio broadcasts of earlier days where the announcer would be compelled to be in evening dress to talk into a microphone. Totally divorced from the real world.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:15 PM

Some of you might start by responding to what I have put up about Ewan rather than digging up more urban myths

I understood this thread was about 'Class Act: The Political and Cultural Life of Ewan MacColl' by Ben Harker not about your remniscences. Lot's of people have said things about MacColl. What makes your opinions more important?

"I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song" MacColl

And you still don't understand why some people got pissed off with him?

(Actually, I quoted more context than your quote in red.)

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM

"But people, not just me, are saying that a rude tone is objectionable and we all need to move on. "
Yes we do Vic - so stop ignoring your favourites
Personally, I no longer care too much what you think of me - I jut wanted to prick your 'neutral' bubble
If you want to comment - make it a general one
"Why not start afresh now?"
Absolutely
Some of you might start by responding to what I have put up about Ewan rather than digging up more urban myths
Maybe it might be worth discussing one of the comments MacColl made in a six-month series of interviews we did with him in 1978/79
"I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM

I'll leave most of that.

Your style of argument is never going to move anyone one iota from their original position because you don't present an argument. You state THE TRUTH and respond extemely aggressively to anyone who disagrees with you.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:21 AM

In both cases, the "tone" had been long set
But people, not just me, are saying that a rude tone is objectionable and we all need to move on. The fact that is 'long set' doesn't justify it; they are looking for a new approach where posters can concentrate on expressing their opinions without having their opinions scorned or put down. Why not start afresh now? Let's write what we believe and let a variety of opinions stand without recourse to negativity.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

"you attacked him personally."
Because it's a long standing practice of his Bryan
Dick reached his height when he threatened physical violence if ever I came into his home territory
Enough is enough with some behaviour, as far as I am concerned
Hoot deanded an answer he had already been given about half a dozen times and when I stopped responding he kept it up - stalking, as far as I'm concerned
In both cases, the "tone" had been long set
"That came from Peggy Seeger and a couple of days ago you seemed to wear it with pride."
And I still do - the whole quote, that is - you choose to concentrate on the "intransigent" bit
"is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated. Most of the collectors who've done that have had a kind of tunnel vision, without which their work would not have been as productive. They stuck their necks out and their heads are getting chopped off. They are in good company."
I ask again - how many here have moved one iota from their original position on this or the Roud book thread
I have no problem with those who stick to their guns except when they use other people doing the same as a weapon
Somewhat two-faced in my book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:05 AM

Jim, Dick prodded this thread back into life back in January with a, perhaps, contentious remark about MacColl. You did not contest what he had said, you attacked him personally.

When Hootenanny raised some old row by asking for an explanation of why you had called him dishonest, you responded by calling him "A dyslexic, a megalomaniac and a typo-stalker - three for the price of one!"

You set the tone.

As for the other accusations of "intransigence"
That came from Peggy Seeger and a couple of days ago you seemed to wear it with pride. Out of context? I quoted the whole paragraph and gave a link to the letter in Living Tradition.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 09:51 AM

"That would be the thread where Jim Carroll was insulted on 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM when it was written -"
You forgot the "self promoter" ad "attention seeker" and the rest of the diatribes Vic
It was after these that your one sided reprimands came
Enough of this - it's interfering with the ghoulish MacColl kicking ritual
Those who quote Peggy might like to recall the time she castigated those who attacked her dead husband "who is no longer around to defend himself"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 09:08 AM

You did exactly the same when Steve Gardham was slinging around his personal insults on the 'Roud Book' thread
It doesn't help the "atmosphere" in any way to single out just one culprit - that is taking sides

Ah yes! The Roud thread. That would be the thread where Jim Carroll was insulted on 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM when it was written -
you're a doddery old fool, and very few here respect your views.

and I responded straight away by posting
This is a very unhelpful comment and lowers yourself to the main perpetrator of insults on this thread. and I followed it with a request that this insult be removed - which it duly was.
I dislike such rude insulting comments and frequently react to them, sometimes in the thread, sometimes in PMs, sometimes by informing the moderators.
Please accept that the way I have been challenging your comments is not a personal vendetta.... but it isn't going to stop me doing so when I consider that you are out of order.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:50 AM

Whoops - another 'typo'
"Roud" book, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:14 AM

"Well, at least I tried....."
Not hard enough Vic
You did exactly the same when Steve Gardham was slinging around his personal insults on the 'Roud Book' thread
It doesn't help the "atmosphere" in any way to single out just one culprit - that is taking sides
It's you people who have made this about me - I have attempted to stick to the subject of MacColl
As for the other accusations of "intransigence"
Hands up all those who have shifted their position one iota on this or the Rod book argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

Well, at least I tried.....

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

"Again trying to phrase carefully and avoid provocation, there are no "sides" in my previous statement."
You carefully pint out my outburstts of bad temper and avoid the insults that caused them
Don'tt ever volunteer for Jury duty Vic
I'd comment on the relevance of an ironic comment I once made on Britain refusing to accept responsibility for the Empire - "English means never having to say "sorry" - and the effort that went ino digging it out but I'm sure you'd add that to your list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM

As one sided as ever Vic
Jim Carroll
Again trying to phrase carefully and avoid provocation, there are no "sides" in my previous statement. I don't see myself being on any "side" and don't see myself a member of any group or gang. It was an attempt to advocate fairness, civility, clarity, consideration and respect for the opinions of others in postings. It was an attempt to move away from seeing demeaning comments made about others merely for expressing an opinion. If I have been attempting to do otherwise, please explain any objections to what I have been advocating in a lucid manner. I am not on any personal vendetta here. I am seeking at atmosphere where there can be a stimulating and interesting exchange of ideas where differing or opposing ideas and opinions can be made and received without derogatory responses.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:59 AM

And for the record, I happen to be someone who believes the royal family should be replaced, again apologies for thread drift

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:57 AM

Apologies for thread drift but jims comment"English means never having to say "sorry" is Wide of the mark anyway but the first thing that springs to mind was The Queens   remarks here
She told guests from the northern and southern Irish communities: "It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all."

The remarks, at a dinner in Dublin Castle, former headquarters of British rule in Ireland before independence in 1922, came as dissident republicans staged a small but violent demonstration.

Opening her speech in Irish with "A Úachtaráin agus a chairde [president and friends]", the Queen spoke of the importance of forbearance and conciliation, "of being able to bow to the past but not to be bound by it", and of the many who have suffered the painful legacy of loss. Lord Mountbatten, her husband's uncle, was killed by the IRA off the west coast of Ireland in August 1979. She said: "To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy."

The Queen spoke also of increasingly strong bonds and values: "The lessons of the peace process are clear: whatever life throws at us, our individual responsibilities will be all the stronger for working together and sharing the load ... The ties of family, friends and affection are our most precious resource ... the lifeblood of partnership across these islands, a golden thread runs through all our joint successes so far and all we will go on to achieve."

The Irish president, Mary McAleese, said the Queen's visit marked a new chapter in relations between the two countries "that may still be a work in progress, but happily has also become a work of progress, of partnership and friendship".

McAleese said: "I am particularly proud of this island's peacemakers who, having experienced first hand the appalling, toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in."

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:10 PM

It's not about you, Jim, it's about what you say. I am just suggesting that you stop and think before you click submit.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:07 PM

"English means never having to say "sorry".
Jim Carroll" 17 dec 07, quote
we live in a world of constant change, but here we are 10 years on and Jim Carroll doesnt change, ten years on and he is doing his best to keep up English Traditions, carry on Jim you are showing the world what a fine englishman you are a trusted defender of an English Traditions, never say Sorry.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM

"Jim, Peggy Seeger says that you have inherited SOME of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament."
And you are taking what Pegguy had to say about me out of context Bryan
I have spent a lot of time with Peggy over the last year or so and hse really has no problem with how we work and what we have achieved - she has actually put this in writing in The Living Tradition if you wish to confirm it
I really didn't want to reduce this to being about me

As one sided as ever Vic
Jim Carroll