Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:32 AM

In your defence Gerry, I must say I thought I was being fairly direct.

Can I ask how old you are?

Everybody of my generation knows Lord of the Dance. And all our parents fought in the war against nazism, (which strange though it may seem) didn't leave a vast reservoir of empathy in the English people for anti semitism. I really do not think an anti semitic chant would have struck much of a chord, with people who had the job of liberating the concentration camps of that era. Whereas Lord of the dance was very popular withthat same generation. how could that be?

And furthermore all our generation know and can distinguish between English and American fanny. And one is tempted to add, ones arse form ones elbow - but that would be condescending.

Please don't mistake my impatience with abuse. There is a qualitative difference. Saying that someone has no knowledge of, and respect for our culture and customs, or is maybe a little deficient in understanding - that's not quite the same as accusing Sydney Carter of perpetrating an act of vile racism.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

Did I ever tell you about the poster I saw for the American Girl Rock Group

Fanny (with supporting band)

The mind boggles.

:D

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

Using the term "The Holy People" to refer to members of the Jewish nation may have been very common among the Jews of Jesus' day. It may be common among Jewish people today. I don't know. I'm not Jewish. The question is not: "is it possible to find anti-jewish sentiment in this song", but rather: "is it reasonable to believe that someone of a non-jewish background writing a song C. 1960 would associate the term "The Holy People" exclusively with the Jews."

I personally think this is a bit of a stretch. If the song actually referred to "The Jewish leaders" instead of "The Holy People" I think you would find a lot more support for the anti-semitic argument.

One might just as well argue that the Bob Dylan song "with God on our side" is anti-native american, since it contains the lines "the cavalries charged, the Indians died/For the country was young, with God on its side"

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

Dave, the terms semite and semitic were coined in the late 18th century. August Ludwig Schlozer, who coined the terms, had the idea that languages like Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic all originate from one original language, a 'proto-semitic' one. Extending that thought, if they all spoke one language, they must all be one people, a semitic people. Moritz Steinschneider was the first to coin the term antisemitic. If you know of any earlier mention, please share. He used it to describe the French scholar Renan who held that the European races were superior to Semitic ones. Renan himself used the term semitic reluctantly, for want of a better one. Many German writers and demagogues in the 19th century used Semite to reffer to Jews. Steinschneider aside, the person who came up with the noun and concept that is antisemitism was Wilhelm Marr. Marr also coined the term Judenhass (Jew-hatred).
He founded the Antisemite League in 1879.He wanted to stop what he saw as the Jewish threat to Germans. You wont find mention of Arabs or anyone but Jews in Marr's rhetoric.

If you want to use the Biblical classifications, the Phoenicians aren't the children of Shem!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

The difference I suppose is that Dylan's line is one of deep irony.

Whereas Carter is wearing his heart on his sleeve. The song (corny though some may find it) is as good a setting out the Quaker creed and their pantheistic take on things, as could be compressed into a song or single prayer. Carter would never have looked for the word of god in the testaments, particularly not the old testament..

The word of god (I think Carter would have agreed) is written by us in the dance - the joy which we create, the love and commitment we give to others, the generosity of spirit.....

that's the atrraction of mudcat - you get to spread your generosity of spirit hither and thus.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

If the Jewish people are in the habit of referring to themselves as "the holy people" then I can see that a Jewish person may feel that it refers to them. But it's not how other people generally refer to the Jews, and before taking offence it would be better if that person could first reflect on whether another interpretation might be more reasonable.

Seeking and finding offence where none is intended, especially where that offence is fairly obscure, as in this case, does nothing to help situations where the offence is real and needs to be stood up against.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

I am quite happy with your explanation, Volgadon and I have already said that I cannot provide any proof of earlier usage. Which, again, if you had read my full post you would have seen! What I am saying is that because a term has been hijacked to mean one thing doesn't mean that thing is right. Does the word 'gay' mean homosexual? No. Does the word semetic mean Jewish? No. Part of my extended family, by marriage, are Jewish in faith. They are certainly not semitic in race.

No amount of common usage will chage the original meaning of a word just as no amount of spin will make LoTD anti-Jewish! I hope you now understand that I am not ignorant of the subject, as you suggested earlier, but maybe have a better understanding than most.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

I did see that, Dave and I did read your full post. I thought I'd put the challenge out. My point is that the term wasn't hijacked. It was coined about Jews. Period. Semitic, when reffering to anything but a language group, is very inaccurate.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:08 AM

it is just a song, if anyone has a pronlem with it then tough, get a life.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:02 PM

Ok - look at the verse under discussion.

'I danced on the Sabbath and I cured the lame
The holy people said it was a shame
They whipped and they stripped me and they hung me on high
And left me there on a cross to die'

Maybe it is a little misleading but, in order to make it scan, how could SC have phrased it? Try putting in 'The Romans' - it won't scan.

Occasionally a songwriter might have to play with the accepted story in order to make a song that satisfies. I would warrant that very few people, unless, as Al says, they are looking for insult and slight, would take Carter's words as being anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:11 PM

Semitic, when reffering to anything but a language group, is very inaccurate

Exactly! So why keep using it?

Goatfell- Not as easy as that. Wish it were! Would any offensive material be acceptable as long as it was in a song? Don't think so. Not that I think LoTD is offensive but I think you know what I mean!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:16 PM

"I would recommend picking up a nice grammar book and reading up on usage of articles."

TOO TRUE!

It would be way-far gauche to use an article like a suitcase as formal wearing apparel. However, were the invitation to specify that one should wear a suitcase to a formal dinner, then check with your grammar (mine passed away in 1967) and ensure that your socks match.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

Well, you know that there are always going to be some people who will find offence in just about anything, they make it their life's work to seek offensiveness out wherever they think they can find it. This is one of those cases, and, of course, there are always the gate-keepers ready to deny the charges leveled. There are far worse things going on in this world even as we all type these posts, perhaps it is those things that need addressing rather than the alleged offensiveness of one phrase in one verse in one song.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

If the song had said "The chosen people" there would have been some justification for the accusation.

It didn't. As for the term "the holy people", this is not one which has ever been used used as an equivalent to "the chosen people" as a way of referring to the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Anyone who can start a thread on this topic or even think of agreeing with its premise really needs to:
1. become familiar with the work of Sydney Carter - read his other song words, read his poetry, read the testimonies of those who knew him, found out what he did with his life
2. do something more productive with your life than looking for offence where none was intended, or where none can reasonably be inferred
3. get yourself an absorbing, *constructive* hobby, preferably one that helps others or brings real happiness (which amounts to the same thing)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

4. Totally ignore this thread.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Just out of interest, does anyone agree with Gerry?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

Do I agree with the poster Guest,Gerry? Absolutely not, I think his posts say more about him than about Sydney Carter

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Does "Gerry" agree with "Gerry"? Or just taking the piss?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:59 PM

Just out of interest, does anyone agree with Gerry?

I don't. Dunno about anyone else.

D.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

"I danced for the scribes & the Pharisees,
But they wouldn't dance, and they wouldn't follow me.
I danced for the fishermen, for James & John,
They followed me, and the dance went on."

Surely not anti-semitic (leaving apart that the Jews aren't the only semites), Just anti-establishment. Those who should know their scriptures & be looking for a messiah (the scribes & pharisees) missed the relevance of Christ's appearance. The common people (the fishermen, tax gatherers etc.,) recognised him for what he was.

At this point I must admit to being a practising Christian (if there were any doubt)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:31 PM

I think I can see Gerry's side of the question. I've been trying to say, you can't really invalidate other people's experience and assumptions. And they grow out of a background of troubling history.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

You know what, It is an awful song ...and if it is anti anything then shame on the author ... but for me any song I don't like I could care less about. It is like TV, if I don't like the show ya know what, I turn the channel ... if I don't like a song ... I don't give it a second listen. So if the song offends anyone, hey don't listen to it because who cares about a bad song right ... I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't want censorship of any song or any literary work ... if it offends don't read it, don't listen to it don't watch it if it is on TV .. We are going way over the deep end anymore with political hair splitting .. and it is a very sad. I dispise bigots of any type. If your take on this song is that of bigotry then constant discussion only only gives it attention that is not needed. You see for me when we allow certain words to effect us so, then we are giving the words a power over us that we should not allow. No song or author that I dislike will make me want to give them a second of my time. If you feel the song is anti anything then for you and me and others who don't like it shouldn't even bother with it. My take anyway

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:52 PM

No, McGrath of Harlow, I am not just taking the piss. I honestly believe that
1. a reasonable person, seeing or hearing that stanza of LotD, and not having Carter at his shoulder to disabuse him of the notion, could very well be convinced that the "they" who hung Jesus on a cross were meant to refer to the holy people who said it was a shame he danced on the sabbath,
2. "holy people" is a reference to, if not the entire Jewish people of the time, then to a segment thereof - maybe the Pharisees, maybe the Sanhedrin, maybe the priests, maybe some other Jewish authorities, but, in any event, definitely not to the Romans,
3. it is a lie, and, historically, a horrendous lie, to say that the Jews, or the Pharisees, or the Sanhedrin, or the priests, or any Jewish authorities, legal or religious, hung Jesus on a cross.

As to whether anyone agrees with me, I'm not sure what difference that makes, but I hope that George will report back with the results of the experiment to see about the first point above. Those who are sure that no one agrees with me may also wish to conduct the experiment.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:17 PM

On the other hand, Gerry, if you understand the "holy people" ironically to refer to constituted religious authorities at large, they have a very poor record indeed, including the Zoroastrian priests who engineered the judicial murder of the the Prophet Mani, the masterminds of the Crusades and the Inquisitions, the Sunni judges who condemned Mansur-e Hallaj and other Sufi martyrs, the architects of the Salem witch trials, those responsible for "disappeared" dissidents in Iran, ....

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:07 AM

>>It hasn't been changed, it was coined to mean anti-Jewish and that was how it was used. His name eludes me right now, but an Austrian Jewish scholar used it in the 1860s to criticise some virulently anti-Jewish scholar and 20 years later, Wilhelm Marr widely used the term to reffer(sic) solely to Jews.<<

That seems to me to be a very specious and dark argument. Its like fundamentalists saying that the only meaning of "Anti-Christian" was to be against them. Or for Mexicans to say that "anti-immigrant" means anti-Mexican. Or for "pro-life" to refer only to people who are anti-abortion.

Wilhelm Marr using common english words to his own purpose does not make his usage correct. He did not trade mark the word, so "anti-Semitic" meaning against Semites, as Semites are defined is obviously the correct usage.

"Anti-Jew", is a much more precise and honest term. It is what most people mean when they say "anti-Semitic". Certainly it is what anyone who shares Mr. Marr's definition means. I don't know why they do not just use the former. I know its an old tradition to use the broader term for the specific group, and apparently we have Mr. Marr to thank for that, but I feel that there is a certain unintended comedy in hearing an Arab called an anti-Semite. Its as if a Mexican immigrant called me anti-immigrant, when I am also an immigrant.

Which brings me to Len Wallace's point. Carter is pretty blunt and specific when he names the pharisees in that song. I am sure that if he had meant to name the Semites or the Jews or anyone else and specifically blame them for the crucifixion he would have. Anyone who sings the song and doesn't interpret it as that is also in the clear.

It is very clear that in the scenario of the trial and execution of Jesus, some Jews caused his death. Most people, all sensible people, do not share that belief. If someone is determined to believe such tripe, censoring this song won't help. I think that the songwriter used a horrible metaphor to express the story as told. It is no more or less anti-Semitic than the story in the Bible, which I do not believe was anti-Semitic at all.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:16 AM

.....correction.

It is very clear that in the scenario of the trial and execution of Jesus, some Jews caused his death. Most people, all sensible people, do not share the belief that all other subsequent and contemporary Jews are to blame. That would be like blaming all arabs for what Bin Laden has done. If someone is determined to believe such tripe, censoring this song won't help. I think that the songwriter used a horrible metaphor to express the story as told. It is no more or less anti-Semitic than the story in the Bible, which I do not believe was anti-Semitic at all.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:03 AM

Speaking of gay being hijacked to mean homosexual, did anyone else hear about the website with the online language filter which caused them to post an article about a certain Mr. Homosexual, who beat the world record for the hundred metre dash? (wind aided).

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: oggie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:01 AM

St Luke 23,vs 21-24 (The whole saga beguns at 22, v66)

"Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the and of the chief priests prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required."

Steve

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:36 AM

Gerry, a person may well come to the conclusions you say. And they would not be entirely unreasonable in doing so, since there is a clear train of logic in what you say. But it is not the most reasonable conclusion. The song taken as a whole is clearly not anti-semitic, and to try to infer that from a few words is not reasonable.

If someone is going to ignore the more reasonable interpretation in order to take offence at the less reasonable one, then while I will take note of that offence I do not feel obliged to avoid giving it.

Is LOTD anti-semitic? No
Could someone be offended by it? Possibly, but only by wilfully misinterpreting the words.
Should we alter the words to avoid giving that offence? No

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:36 AM

As to whether anyone agrees with me, I'm not sure what difference that makes

My point, Gerry, is that if your views are shared by a sizeable group of Catters then it's worth having this discsusion - but if it's just you the rest of us are wasting our time.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM

There was and old saw about 'an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters wouuld eventually write the works of Shakespeare.' I never thought it would happen, but it has. Tell me though, WHY have we chosen "Much Ado About Nothing"?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:18 AM

Thank you Nigel Parsons and Jack the Sailor. At least I now know I am not the only one who feels anti-semitic is incorrect. Unless you are 'just showing ignorance about the subject' as volgadon suggested I was. If so I am proud to be in the company of such estemed ingnoramii!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:43 AM

I have to confess that, as an atheist the subject of Judaism, or any other religion, holds no interest beyond a curiosity I have in all superstitions.
This subject does does raise one important point in my mind - to what extent should we be prepared to censor any creative art for fear of giving offence.
I have in mind particularly the fad of some time ago for either altering, or omitting completely, songs that were considered derogatory to women, which was, in my opinion, responsible for removing some very fine and important songs from the repertoire.
It seems to me that, unless the songs were designed to give offence, or that their contents were so strong so as to enable them to be deliberately used to give offence, there is no case whatever for alteration or omission. Certainly in the case of 'anti-women' songs, there are plenty of 'anti-men' songs to counterbalance them - or are these to be banned too?
It's back to the old question really "what are we going to do about The Merchant of Venice?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:48 AM

Good point, Jim. And then what do we do about "Othello"? He's presented as a Moor yet described as a Black African. What Hell hath William wrought?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:56 AM

Howard, the stanza we've been discussing, on what I hold to be the plainest interpretation, propagates the antisemitic belief that the Jews, or some of their number, hung Jesus on a cross. I infer nothing about the song as a whole - I object strongly to the stanza. As to whether one has to wilfully misinterpret the words to reach the conclusions I have reached, I await the outcome of the experiment George has undertaken to carry out.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Phil
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:26 AM

Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic? Jesus, get a life people.
Phil*

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:15 AM

Gerry, you're entitled to your interpretation. However I, and it would seem nearly everyone else who's responded, including some Jews, don't share it.

Also, I don't think it's correct to look at the stanza in isolation. If the tone of the song as a whole isn't anti-semitic (and I don't believe it is), is it then reasonable to put an anti-semitic interpretation on a few words which are at worst ambiguous?

If you choose to be offended by it, that's up to you. Don't expect the rest of us to feel guilty about it.

I don't care very much one way or the other about this particular song, but I do share Jim Carroll's views about censorship.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

>So let me propose an experiment. Write out the stanza from LotD on a piece of paper, show it to a friend who is not familiar with the song, and when the friend has read it, ask whether your friend thinks that the "they" in the second half was meant by the author to refer to the holy people of the first half.

It's harder than you'd think finding someone who hasn't heard this song, and hence already has a "take" on it, but the (non-Jewish) person I asked was inconclusive about it. When asked whether he thought "they" referred to the holy people, he said it could but it didn't necessarily, and that he had never really thought about it. When pressed, the most definite answer he would give was - this is going to be a huge help! - "it depends on how you want to read it." Square one, here we come.   

I enquired if he thought "the holy people" referred to the Jewish as a defined group, and he replied Not particularly, just anyone who was super-religious. I then asked if he thought the song was anti-Semitic (he's well aware of what that term means) and he said, "What??!" Not What-as-in-I-didn't-get-the-question but What-as-in-are-you-kidding?   

It's entirely possible that someone Jewish would react in a different manner. The fact that this horrendous historical lie even exists at all must create a grievous sore spot in the sensibilities of anyone who has suffered from it. That I do not and have never believed it (and don't know anyone who does) must be scant comfort. But I do think you're being oversensitive with regard to these lyrics. However, I'm also respectfully aware - as far as a non-religion-practicing Gentile can be - of the horrors that have made you so.   

But, even after the grammar and semantics have been dissected, the overall meaning the words seem to convey is the fact that this gruesome execution was inflicted on Jesus, not that any specific group was responsible for it. "They" was read by my friend - as indeed it is by many of us here - as being whatever authority or agent was empowered to carry it out. That pronoun just has too many associations in the popular vocabulary to ever be pinned down to a single usage. Even if someone does associate "they" as indicating "the holy people" it doesn't mean they think these holy people are exclusively the Jewish. My friend didn't. I don't. Others above don't.

Have you tried conducting this experiment yourself, Gerry? If so, was it with someone Jewish or non-Jewish? As I've said, we can all go on asking people and getting their opinions (because Opinion is all it ever can be) until the next ice age, and in the end we will not have any conclusive verdict, just a great big pile of conflicting opinions. It's the five blind men and the elephant all over again.

Subject: RE: I gotta stop smokin' that stuff . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:48 AM

"Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?"

It's a sorta Zen question, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:17 AM

Now and Zen you get questions like this

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Arkie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:04 PM

I find nothing at all in Lord of the Dance that could be construed to be anti-semetic, either by intention or otherwise. Jesus was a Jew and most of his followers were Jews. The song is about Jesus and paints him in a very respectful light. On the other hand, "the holy people" is an ironic term used to describe those who thought that they, by means of their position in the temple and wealth, were superior to the common citizenry. And they acted in a most unholy way. The Sanhedrin, the Jewish governing body, pronounced the death sentence on Jesus and prevailed upon Pilate the Roman magistrate to carry out the sentence. There may be those who find that offensive but those who come to the defense of those first century religious bureaucrats would not have been all that popular on the streets of Jerusalem in that day. From the reports of writers of the first century the Sadducees, the priestly caste, were generally hated by the populace. The Pharisees were the sect most trusted by the people and some scholars associate Jesus with the Pharisees rather then the Essenes. If I am wrong, I hope someone with greater knowledge of first century history will correct me, but I read somewhere, from Josephus I think, that when the temple was destroyed by the Romans, Jewish rebels sought out the High Priest, the head of the Sadducee sect, found him hiding in a hole and dragged him out to be executed. Josephus also reported that animals sacrificed in the temple were purchased from the Bazaars of Ananais who was the most influential Sadducee of his day. The priest of the temple were the ones who approved a sacrificial animal and there were accusations that animals not purchased from the priestly bazaar were not perfect and therefore not acceptable and that the cost of animals through the bazaar were inflated well above the normal cost. I suppose being from the American south, I could claim that anyone who writes or remarks about the slave holders in the south is prejudiced.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM

I was reading the Wikipedia article "Pharisees." It makes the point that the Gospels that were selected for us as canonical, coming as long after the fact* and full of polemics as they are, present the Pharisees in a very distorted and unfavorable light. So there's a credibility gap between the image of the Pharisees in literature and songs such as Lord of the Dance, and their real role in history and as progenitors of modern Judaism.

*By contrast with the Gospels of Thomas, Philip, and Mary Magdelene, with their very different emphases.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:56 PM

Gerry,

If you are saying that it is a "lie" that some Jews were responsible for Jesus' death, then you need to read that part of the New Testament. There is no lie, as oggie, and others have pointed out, the text is clear. He would not have died that day if it were not for the prodding and insistence of certain Jewish religious leaders and a Palestinian mob presumably made up of nominal Jews.

If you are saying it is "anti-Semetic" because these Jews were not the ones that actually hung him up and pierced his side, then you are splitting some pretty irrelevant and silly hairs.

Is Dick Cheney not responsible for any deaths in Iraq because he never pulled a trigger nor dropped a bomb, or indeed never directly ordered such actions?

By the same token, perhaps Hitler could be absolved of blame for not only the Holocaust, but possibly even World War Two.

The stories in the New Testament with regard to this are not only clear but they are quite nuanced and granular. Read them and you will see who exactly is to blame. Jewish "holy men" of the time and a Palestinian mob whose religion and/or ethnicity is not specified. Jerusalem was a world crossroads at the time it seems unlikely to me that the mob was completely homogeneous. As many members here have said, by no means are all Jews blamed, in the New Testament, for Jesus' death. By the same token, not all Saudis are blamed for 9/11. Not all Americans are blamed for the Iraq War. Not all Canadians are blamed for Celine Dione.

It is obvious, that LOTD is a sincere metaphor for that story. It is also clear to me that the writer of the song understood that story. He meant to say, and rightly so that these particular "Holy People" (those words used rather sarcastically), caused Jesus to be tortured and die. There is not a single word in the song that could reasonably interpreted to mean that he meant, or the song means, ALL JEWS from then to the present day. Perhaps it may be reasonably interpreted otherwise by a Jew. But if that is so then the reasonable remedy is to explain the Christian context of the song to the offended Jew, not to censor the song.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

Jack, as I just said or at least thought I implied, the canonical gospels are not a credible source for this story.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

A beer would be nice! What a load of rubbish.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:16 PM

a beer would be nice is a load of rubbish? Well you said it!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:18 PM

You may not think it a reliable source, but it those gospels are the starting point and main source for about 1.3 billion Christians including me and the dude who wrote the song. I think that any discussion of "anti-Semitic" (anti-Jew) content of the song has to start there.

Your point may be valid in another context, but when talking about the meaning of a song sung in Christian churches by people who believe in those Gospels, I do not think it is relevant.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM

"the Gospels that were selected for us as canonical, coming as long after the fact*...*By contrast with the Gospels of Thomas, Philip, and Mary Magdelene."

If the suggestion is that these non-canonical gospels were earlier than the canonical ones, or even as early as them, that is not an opinion held by many scholars.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

I don't know anything about first-century law, so I have a question: Was Pilate legally required to act upon the wishes of those who prevailed upon him to levy this death sentence? Or did he still retain the power to go over their heads and refuse their wishes, however clearly expressed, if he wanted to? He put it to a vote - was this mere bottling out (no question there) or when he passed on the responsibility did it become some sort of mandate?   

He was the government official in charge, and if he did still have the final say as to whether the crowd's will should be carried out, then in my view the blame is Pilate's because that's where the buck stops: nobody could actually force him to act on this public exhortation. (Politicians ignore those all the time when it suits them, and slither out of unpopular decisions if they can find a scapegoat to bear the liability. No change there, then.)

Or was that call for crucifixion legally binding on Pilate? Either way, he's culpable for ducking out of his duties as the authority in charge. They always try to wash their hands of difficult issues, but that doesn't mean their hands are clean. (Lady MacBeth comes to mind.)