BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:59 PM

This thread worries me. It worries me because there are those on here who are so pedantic that it takes my breath away. I guess it's the same reason that we are now all so 'controlled' and not allowed to talk to each other in a normal way.

If you are a Muslim, then you're allowed to be a Muslim at ALL times, putting it even above your nationality. Yet, if you are a Christian, you're not even allowed to 'take it to work with you'? I'd presume that if you're Christian, then you are so, 24/7. It's not another 'job' which you do part time, it's simply a part of you, a part of your being. This lady was simply being kind, not aggressive, nor wanting to 'convert' her patient, just a kind person reaching out. And for that she's been put through all that she has?

It worries me the way Christianity, seemingly above all other faiths, has now become the one faith that people feel free to abuse and ridicule. I think that's wrong. Maybe the poor nurse *asked* her patient, because she's almost become paranoid about putting anyone into her prayers without their express permission.

Sheesh! This world has gone quite barmy.

The WHOLE point of being a nurse is surely to care about people. It's not JUST about science and I can imagine nothing worse than being nursed by a cold, sterile, scientific android, who turns up to clinically change your dressings, and nowt else.

At this rate all vicars/chaplains will have to be banned from hospitals in case patients of other religions take offence that they're in there in the first place.

I mean..come ON folks.

Gawd, thank heavens I come from a time where I can still recall people being allowed to say things easily to one another, to reach out and be kind to one another, and they didn't have their heads put on the block for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM

Georgiansilver wrote: "You use the expression "a well meaning Christian" and I agree with you that is what this woman is...... but if she had been a person who believed that everything should be pristine clean and offered to clean the womans toilet... although it was not her duty to do so.... would there have been a problem? If she was someone who believed that good communication is important and offered to write a letter for the woman or made a phone call for her... again not her duty.... would there have been a problem?"

My honest opinion is that she shouldn't clean the toilet and unless it was medically-related matter (as in ringing the hospital &c), or if the person was physically able to use the phone, then she should not make the phone call either. The reason being is that if the patient was unable to do this kinds of things then, some kind of support/carer network would need to built around the patient. None of that is a nurse's job.

If she, the nurse, believed everything should be "pristine" and didn't think the house was tidy to her personal standards rather than it being some kind of issue regarding (lack of) personal hygiene because of mental or physical illness, then, frankly, that's tough shit. As with her religion, she should really keep her views to herself and not expect other people's lifestyles to on a par with hers. The same could be said about the idea of 'good communication' - she's a nurse - where is she qualified to say what 'good communication' is, other than her own personal belief? Is she a public speaker or expert in adult literacy or something?

Offering to pray for someone is a charitable thing to do and I admire the woman for offering... she can pray for me if I need healing anytime.........

So is knocking on an old person's door to see if they need any shopping. However, you don't do it at 12 o'clock at night - there's a time and there's a place.

I admire anyone with a generous heart whether it is considered from God or other.....

Again, this underlines the difference between 'good thoughts' and 'prayer'. I think everyone wants well-wishing or good thoughts, but when it comes in a religious form, not everyone is comfortable with the 'extra component'. Either because it's not appropriate in a particular environment - and, as bizarre as it may sound to you, not everyone thinks religion is appropriate everywhere - or it might even conflict on a theological level.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Mike/Georginansilver...

"...the women with the stones/crystals actively approach people and offer their healing practice...... they have access to all the wards.
I did not realize this. In my opinion this is not acceptable. I assure you, most hospitals *I* am aware of do not allow such things.

Then you say:
"...as a Christian I see it as my duty to offer prayer for ANYONE in any situation who I think might need it."

followed by:

".. miracles are performed by God when Christians pray for others who do not necessarily believe in the power of prayer or in Gods existence even. The person receiving the healing does not have to believe."

The last one seems to not require the other. I would think that IF prayer is efficacious, it would not need to be offered to possibly uninterested persons. Thus, the nurse could have silently done what she...and you... consider your Christian duties, without upsetting anyone! Then...*IF* a patient indicates their desire to share a prayer session with someone they like & trust, that can easily be arranged, whether a stone/crystal bearer or a religious person of their choosing.

In hospitals I am familar with, there are standard, easily accessed ways to obtain spiritual help and prayer...and I have NO objection to this. The information usually entered in a patient's chart when they are admitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:13 PM

Not a tough call for me. I'm with Lizzie and Nickhere on this one, and with Kendall and Mr. Voice-of-Reason himself, Kevin McGrath.

The nurse wasn't proseltyzing; she simply offered to pray, and she did take "no" for an answer.

I suppose that some would make it illegal to even admit that one has religious beliefs; even though my own beliefs are unconventional and complicated, I think it's important to resist that kind of tyranny.

This woman is having her livlihood taken away from here for the most specious of reasons. No one was hurt, no one was even offended; the observation that someone might have been offended seems to have been sufficient reason to discipline the nurse.

"Christianity" has nothing to do with this, and the nurse's membership in a particular (Baptisdt) denomination even less. No one religion has a monopoly on prayer. Jewish people pray too, and I think we all know that Muslims pray longer and louder and more ostantaciously than anyone else. I'll gladly accept anyone's prayers, nomatter how bizarre their belief system might seem to me. Certainly, if any God exists, there's only One ~ and no one could possibly be any better at understanding the silly differences of belief among humans.

When a dozen fundagelicals showed up at my house with chainsaws a couple of months after Katrina, and proceeded to help me cut up and dispose of a ton or so of fallen tree limbs, I didn't hesitate to join in with them at the completion of the job when they wanted to stand in a circle, hold hands, and pray. Not my style nor my usual practice, and I could have said "no" if it was all that important to me to maintain my agnostic cool. But that would not have been very gracious of me, would it have?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:28 PM

The fact remains that the nurse broke the code of practice not just on this occasion but previously when she had been handing out prayer cards. It is not acceptable for someone dealing with patients to involve them in their religious or any other beliefs. This has nothing to do with her being Christian or any other faith. A minister visiting a hospital is there as a representative of their faith and we would not expect him/her to offer medical advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:29 PM

She disobeyed a direct order from her superiors. THAT is why she has been suspended.

She was aware, after the first instance, that this action was not one that her superiors wanted repeated. Whether or not it is unfair to any particular religious group that is the way it was. She would have the choice of resigning and going to work elsewhere of she did not agree with the stated rules and regulations in her present job. What she does not have the right to do is to go against clearly stated rules. Nor do any of the rest of us.

On the point of whether a little bit of Christian kindness makes her a better, more sympathetic nurse - that is basic poppycock. Are you saying that non Christians, atheists and agnostics aren't capable of compassion and can't do the job as well? That's what it sounds like and that is 'bashing' everyone who isn't a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:35 PM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "If you are a Muslim, then you're allowed to be a Muslim at ALL times, putting it even above your nationality. Yet, if you are a Christian, you're not even allowed to 'take it to work with you'? I'd presume that if you're Christian, then you are so, 24/7. It's not another 'job' which you do part time, it's simply a part of you, a part of your being. This lady was simply being kind, not aggressive, nor wanting to 'convert' her patient, just a kind person reaching out. And for that she's been put through all that she has?"

What you're saying doesn't reflect my opinion on this. If you're religious then yes, it's with you all the time, whether you're a Muslim or a Christian. However, someone's religion shouldn't be an issue in non-religious matters. It might be part of them - what makes that person who they are - but it's not always relevant. It's like trying to shoehorn the fact that your most favourite food is cream-cake (to the extent you have it every day) or that you are a John Wayne memorabilia collector into conversations where it's not relevant. Why bring it up?

As I've said a few times on this thread, I have my own religious beliefs but I've not once actually said what they are anywhere on this forum as it's not relevant and no one needs to know as it's my business and no one else's. I don't think my belief is 'better' than anyone else's and I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone, so why go into them? If everyone's views on religion were like this, the world wouldn't be half the mess it is at the moment.

It worries me the way Christianity, seemingly above all other faiths, has now become the one faith that people feel free to abuse and ridicule. I think that's wrong. Maybe the poor nurse *asked* her patient, because she's almost become paranoid about putting anyone into her prayers without their express permission.

Sheesh! This world has gone quite barmy.

I kind of agree with some of this. I think Christianity is often a soft, easy target for criticism. That's one of the issues I have with Dawkins. I think he's quite careful to direct the bulk of his arguments at a demographic that's less likely to take issue with it.

That said, Christianity is the issue here. I'd be making the same argument if the nurse was a Muslim. To be honest, I'd probably be even more concerned if the nurse was a pagan, if only because I've spent all my adult life being very conscious of pagans criticising 'Teh Evil Xtians' for proselyting and 'forcing their beliefs down people's throats'.

The paranoid nurse scenario I don't buy though, because how would anyone know who she prays for? If the NHS is strapped to pay for all kinds of medical machinery, I doubt they're splashing out on mind-reading machines next to nurses' beds!

The WHOLE point of being a nurse is surely to care about people. It's not JUST about science and I can imagine nothing worse than being nursed by a cold, sterile, scientific android, who turns up to clinically change your dressings, and nowt else.

That's not quite true. They are caring for people in a medical framework. I don't think any of the nurses I've ever known were taking theological exams as well as the nursing exams. Again, you seem to be confusing the idea of being a humanitarian with a nice bed side manner with being Christian. It's possible to be to be the former without bring the latter into it.

I'd think of myself as a failure as a human being if I thought that any good deed I'd done was because of some kind of religious expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:10 PM

...the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power

You just made my point for me...you believed in its power.

maire-anne put her finger on why unsolicited prayer bothers me. It is a very personal thing for me and very specific. I do not want anyone, other than myself, deciding what they think is best for me and praying for that. Besides which I don't pray. I meditate and I give thanks, but I don't pray. Like a lot of Native American spiritual beliefs, I give thanks for the chosen outcome and I always qualify it with "this or something better for the highest good of all concerned." See? Specific and, to me, very important.

As Jacqui and others have said, the religion thing really doesn't matter in this case. She broke a rule of employment, for a second time, after being warned. That is what matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:13 PM

I have had three separate instances when "medical practitioners" have "offered" similar "religious services" and I can state without hesitation that in each case their offer was OFFENSIVE to me, by the "innocent" manner in which it was given (i.e their conviction that they were "doing good" when they weren't) and by their ASSumptions about my own belief and need for NON-MEDICAL "assistance."

As I recognize that these were "acts done in ignorance" I declined (I think politely) their offers. In two of the cases my indication of disinterest resulted only in a "reluctant and disdainful" agreement to cease, which probably I should have reported but didn't.

In a separate incident, while being prepared for cardiac surgery and after initial administration of pre-anesthetic, the anesthetist appeared, as is usual. The purpose of such a pre-op visit is to inform the patient about the procedures to be used, any risks attendant, and to assure informed consent of the patient.

Instead of discussion of the pending surgery, this person decided that I needed a moral lecture about my dissolute life-style, something he ASSumed without foundation, and which - at any rate - was none of his business since I had three other qualified practitioners to advise me on the subjects he wanted to preach to me.

When I interupted his "well intenioned" sermon to ask "How does this relate to the surgery that is about to be done" he got mad and left.

That made me feel really confident about having him participate in what was fairly high-risk surgery, but at that point there was little I could do about it.

While I'm quite certain that in his own feeble (note: sarcasm) mind he was sure that he had fulfilled the intent of the customary pre-op meeting, I felt his conduct did not include the intended consultation and was unprofessional enough that I made written reports of his conduct to my own two principal doctors with interest in the procedure, with the request that I not ever be attended by this person in the future. I did not report his conduct to the hospital, although I probably should have.

While I can be moderately forgiving of persons who "project their beliefs" in addition to performing their professional obligations, I have found that such persons invariable do inject "unprofessional" aspects into the overal handling of the patient. I also have found, irrefutably, that persons who feel compelled to "express their belief" are TOTALLY IGNORANT of how offensive they are, unnecessarily, to their VICTIMS.

In the case under discussion, the old lady's assertion that "she wasn't offended but others might be" means that she WAS VERY MUCH OFFENDED but she's a sweet old lady who didn't want to cause trouble, just as the common "I've got lots of friends who are ****" is a SURE AND CERTAIN INDICATION of poorly concealed bigotry.

Only those with full knowledge of what actually happened - and with knowledge of the persons involved - are qualified to render judgement in this case, as to whether an offense occured or as to the appropriateness of the punishment; but I have no problems with believing that the nurse quite likely exceeded the boundaries of professional conduct, based on what is included in the reports.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:21 PM

Nooooooo....

This isn't about religion as such. This is about KINDNESS!

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else! She wasn't 'trying to force her beliefs down the patient's throat'...and it stuns me, and worries the absolute beejayzus out of me that some folks can't see this.

I'm not *supposed* to help people up the steps into er...a certain shop where I work, nor even help push their wheelchairs up the ramp. I *am* allowed to put it down for them...but after that, that's where it stops. Why?   In case the er...shop where I work gets sued by the people who may fall up/down sideways over/off or under the steps, or tumble out of their wheelchairs, I presume.

Well, b*gger that for a game of soldiers!

I am sooooo not going to stand there and watch someone struggling, purely because that's what my 'job description' tells me to do. Hell, I even decorated the consulting room and treatment room for my doctors, years back, whilst they were away. I did it to surprise them...and to keep busy. They were very pleased, it saved them a small fortune. Was it in my job description? Nope!

If my little ol' ladies in lavender ask me to move their television, or make them a cuppa, or pick their knickers up off the floor ( ;0) )do I say "I'm sorry, that's not what I'm 'ere for Missus!" and walk out with my head pointing snottily towards the ceiling? No, I say "Yeah, no worries!" and just do it.

I totally, utterly and categorically refuse to ever give in to 'them' and become not only an android, but one who snitches on the humans!

GRRRR!


Your go olafr .... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM

We all need to break far more 'rules'

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

"In the case under discussion, the old lady's assertion that "she wasn't offended but others might be" means that she WAS VERY MUCH OFFENDED but she's a sweet old lady who didn't want to cause trouble,"

Pah!

Absolute poppycock!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM

Lizzie.... I have enjoyed seeing your responses and admire your understanding. You at least have a grip on what actually happened here... others seem to want to make it something else.   
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

personally I cherish prayers said for me in or out of the hospital. What really angers me in a hospital is

JELLO

I get violent now that should be cause for dismissal

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:51 PM

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else!

Kindness might include a bullet in the head for a horse with a broken leg, but there are medically and professionally appropriate kindnesses that are frequently available and that might be better used in appropriate cases. I expect my horse to be appropriately and professionally treated without regard to STUPIDLY OFFERED "kindnesses" that have NO BASIS in the needs of the horse (or his faith and moral convictions).

Such "kindnesses" are for the benefit of the one "offering" them, and completely disregard the needs of the patient, unless and until they are requested by the patient. On request, an appropriate faith healer (counselor) should be called in, and a professional medical provider should NOT be tasked with such counsel and should not offer unsolicited shamanism.

(My favored shaman does not practice your faith - I'd bet on it.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there. But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law.

Why should anyone be precluded from offering a prayer? Why should anyone be so easily offended or angry at that? There was no suggestion of conversion here. If you don't believe in God or prayer, then you can afford a wry smile at the poor simpleton's credulity and say 'no, but thanks all the same'. The only reason to be afraid of prayer is if you suspect it might have some actual effect (though why anyone would struggle against being cured - even by prayer - is beyond me, unless they wanted to die for some reason unknown).

If you're so easily offended by other people's expression of their religion, why is that? I am a Christian, but when I have visited synagogues in the past I have worn the skull cap, because Jews who worship there wear it, and I want to show a sign of respect to their beliefs. I'm not worried that I'll suddenly stop being a Christian just because I am wearing a skullcap! In my experience neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims are easily offended by expressions of each other's faith (unless we're talking about the world's flash points - but they got to be that way for many reasons of which religion is only a small part). It tends more to be people who are anti-religion as a whole who prefer not to see signs of it about (fair enough all the same, just let's not say it's to avoid conflict between the world's main religions).

Modern medicine is based heavily on medical science - surgery and drugs are anyway, and similar aspects. But anyone keeping up to date with developments in medicine will know there has been an 'East-ward' shift in medical thinking that views the curative process as more than simply a 'scientific' series of pills and surgical interventions. There is now a more holistic approach which realizes that a patient's general motivation is important, much more emphasis is placed on bedside manner, more attention is paid to making the hospital a pleasant environment with attention to ergonomics and design / colour etc., I have relatives with a lot of experience in the field of occupational therapy, where patients (for example) did painting etc. in order to speed their recovery. There is also a bigger emphasis on prevention whereas previously it was assumed that we could live as we liked and science would fix us when things went wrong, much as take a car for a 'tune up'.

Once again, I repeat, the best way seems to me to be a polite "no thank you" and move on.


Someone back a bit presented the old lady as 'the VICTIM [my emphasis] was in her 70s' - that bit made me giggle! The 'victim' of a prayer! Oh dear! I can imagine the headlines -

- The victim, in her 70s, was still in a shocked condition late last night after being admitted to hospital. She told police that the attacker had forced her way to her bedside where she offered to pray for the victim in no uncertain terms. "I was lucky to escape" she explained. She alerted one of the other nurses, who quickly raised the alarm. The perpetrator was quickly apprehended and a file is being prepared for the DPP. "I was lucky" continued the old lady, "but imagine if it had been someone else! I hate to think what might have happened!" The police say they have a suspect in custody and are making no further enquiries. "We are confident that we have apprehended the main suspect and that the matter is closed and will be speedily brought to trial" No date has been set for the trial, but a set of stocks have been dusted off and are being prepared in the village green. "We're expecting a brisk trade in old cabbages and rotten tomatoes" one greengrocer stated, while another added "I can hardly wait. I had several hundredweight of bad eggs to offload and I was wondering what to do with them"

I wonder if the day is far off?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

When I was hospitalized for surgury I was asked what religion I belonged to. I thought the wording was telling. I asked why they needed to know. The nurse said that in case of a worst case scenario a preist or rabbi would be provided for me.

I had them type on the wrist band Secular Humanist.

My mother said that until she saw the bracelet, she had no idea I was a practicing humanist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM

I am delighted you have a shaman and have your faith
but an act of kindness that the patient says did not offend them should not be cause for dismissal ...

heck for my 6th back operation, I will welcome the shaman along with my priest. any help I can get ya know. We have become way to politically motivated with the loss of all common sense. A simple no thank you I am not interested should have been enough. I don't know about other countries but we sure can use good health care professional here regardless of their belief system

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

I suppose this ruling would also mean I should never offer my seat on the bus to a pregnant woman again (unsolicited chauvanism, forcing my patriarchal and paternalistic world-view down someone's throat)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM

Nick
you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story.

I had a very distressed student once who called me at home and I quickly figured out she was saying goodbye. I called the police. Yup she took a lot of pills. She got better, married now, 4 kids and thriving

weeks later I am getting my butt kicked from the Dean cause I am not a mental health specialist and should have called the health service first instead of the police ...

needless to say, I simply said that is stupid I am done discussing it and walked out of his office. I could get away with it, I was tenured ya

Heck nothing happened to me. Just the point. You do you best to be kind yet you get it back on you. Me I still think kind is a better way of life regardless of the politics

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM

"One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer"

That's the kind of thing I had in mind about people having different notions of "prayer". That idea would never even occur to me, in the case of saying a private prayer for someone, as against praying with them or over them or faith healing or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM

Katlaughing, I'm curious. Who or what do you give thanks to?

Plus - ". I do not want anyone, other than myself, deciding what they think is best for me and praying for that"

I understand what you're saying, but there are two points to make here -

1) many people decide what they think is best for us, all the time. Politicians make laws in my country about the circumstances in which people may own guns. I may not agree with all their rules, but in general the level of deaths from guns here is low. Doctors also decide what's best for me frequently. Wasn't there a case some time back where everyone was rooting for the State because it insisted on giving blood transfusions to two Jehovah's Witness kids? Where was the 'allowing the parents and kids decide what was best for themselves and not forcing their world-view down their throats' then? Maybe the kids would have followed their parents lead and the parents had different criteria about what was right for them. I don't happen to agree in this particular case, but all I'm trying to say is people often decide what's 'best for us' and it's not always a bad thing.

2) If you object to someone trying to convert you, I quite understand that too. But it needs to be repeated over an over here that the nurse didn't seem to be trying to convert anyone. It was a prayer offered for the patient's physical recovery (as far as I know) - and physical recovery IS part of the nurse's remit. It was not a prayer offered for the patient's conversion or soul (which would be the RELIGIOUS matter).

3) Personally I don't object to anyone trying to convert me. If I have time I'll courteously listen to anyone as long as they're polite and reasonable themselves. If I don't, I'll just say, I can't right now, maybe another time? I know some of you might find this strange or threatening behaviour, but I am not fazed by it. Occasionally Mormons call to my house. I'm not and am unlikely ever to be a Mormon, but I'll listen to what they have to say and offer them a drink and bite to eat if they're hungry. If they want to say a prayer together, that's fine too. Then off they go. If they got aggressive, that would be the end of the welcome, but in my opinion they never do, even when they argue their point with conviction. It's the same with the Hare Krishna's - I won't take their book, because they always expect a 'donation' and I'm not giving them my money, but they can explain their point of view and again I'll listen politely and explain I already have my own beliefs and they do me quite well. If they want, I'll explain mine to them also.

But here once again we've (ok, I'll speak for myself) strayed into religion v. non-religion debate, not exactly my intention. But I suppose the nurse case just underlines a practical example of the tension that lies in the system, that this story is about more than mere rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM

I am not religious, but believe strongly in morality.

When my Dad was in hospital, never to come out again, I sought out the Hospital Chaplain and asked him if he had time, would he be able to go and visit my father. I explained he was Christadelphian and suggested that he maybe didn't offer prayers, but rather sat with him and talked with him, if he wanted too.
He was a very nice person and understood, and he had a calmness that irrespective of religion, gave me a good feeling and I was glad I went to him. I don't know to this day if he ever visited my father, but I trusted him and I am sure he did.

Irrespective of prayer, he had a compassion that I thought was ideal for the situation. I am sure this lady was probably the same. I see no reason for suspending her.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM

But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is.

that what gets me

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

Sorry, Kat, I've just realized I may have asked you a rather personal question, my apologies - don't feel obliged to reply to it! I only asked because you mentioned native americans and I once read a book by a guy called John Fire Lame Deer that made a very big impression on me. Anyway, don't feel obliged to reply to that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM

The nurse was suspended because she broke equality and diversity rules. Those rules were supposed to improve tolerance which seems to be far from the case here!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

NICKHERE: "She had to follow an anal code of conduct". Have you read the NMC Code of Conduct? It's there for very good reasons. Without some basic standards of professional conduct any sort of dodgy practice could be undertaken in the name of nursing with absolutely no comeback for patients. Any caring profession needs clear professional standards, if only to prevent a descent into barbarism. It's not rocket science and has bog-all to do with the thought police or "political correctness" (a right wing construct invented by those who really make a meal out of getting offended, by the way!). Nothing "anal" about setting minimum professional standards...

BUBBLYRAT: "The very notion of nurses being just cold, unemotional, atheist scientists, devoid utterly of all human love, compassion,and understanding is ,frankly,terrifying.". Erm... I'm not being funny, but have you ever met a nurse? And since when did evidence-based medicine become such a bogeyman? It's saved millions and millions of lives, you know! I suspect your view of scientists comes from watching Dr Strangelove...
GOATFELL: Why use this issue to have a pop at muslims? Any bleeding excuse, isn't it?

Another anecdote: not "evidence" of anything, but interesting in this context. A friend and ex-colleague of mine (an atheist brought up in a muslim family, for those who worry about such things) was constantly getting evangelical christian literature put in her in-tray by two born again colleagues. She asked them to stop. Next thing she knew she was hauled in by the manager threatening to have her disciplined on the grounds of oppression of expression of religious freedom or some such nonsense. The Christians had complained to management about her mild objections to their antics and the manager was stupid enough to give them the time of day.

So its not all one-way traffic.

As an atheist I would never dream of bringing up my views with those I am paid to provide a social work service to. It simply wouldn't be appropriate and isn't why I'm there. I expect christians, muslims and other medievalists to show the same basic courtesy.

Finally, she's not been sacked. she's being investigated. Probable outcome will be a slap on the wrist and a warning to really, really not do it again. It's actually quite hard to get yourself sacked by the NHS. Too hard, some might say.

And really finally, I wonder who took this story to the press. I'd put a week's wages on it not being the Primary Care Trust...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

Thanks, SC, for that dose of common sense. I deal with Health Professions students at work - Nurses, Midwives, Podiatrists, Physiotherapists, Occ. Therapists, etc. They're a good bunch of people, taught by dedicated and caring, experienced lecturers. And we have a serious ethics education which helps students, researchers and staff to understand all the complex issues which surround the care and treatment of people within the NHS. The nurse in question broke ethical rules on more than one occasion - and people who say that it's petty and doesn't matter may not always be aware of the sensitivities of dealing with patients. Which is why these guidelines and rules exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:47 AM

"...the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power

You just made my point for me...you believed in its power."

Well actually, I didn't Kat! The point I was making (obviously not very well) was that I didn't believe in its power before my illness, and that its effect on me and the way I felt was utterly unexpected, and profound. My decision to become a Christian was made some time later, and was strongly influenced by the unexpected effect that these people's prayers had on my well being. I wasn't a Christian and I didn't believe in the power of prayer until that power was visited on me.

Had I not felt that effect, I certainly would not in any way have been offended, alarmed, stressed or otherwise pissed-off by those who prayed for me, rather the opposite. I would have taken it as an indication of their goodwill, and thanked them for it.

I don't dispute that the nurse in this case broke a rule, I do believe though that it's a shitty rule. A shitty rule invoked by the PC-Loony Brigade, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:48 AM

Of course from the article we only have the nurses side of what happened we were not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Darowyn
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:09 AM

If you don't believe in a divine force, then you must believe that prayer can do no harm.
If you do believe in a Divine force, you must believe that prayer does some good.
Which of these positions could you hold which could possibly lead to being offended?
How do anyone else's prayers impose anything on my heathen philosophy?
The Nurse in question, by the way, is a Bank Nurse (temporary staff), and is not to be employed by that Primary Care Trust in future (Radio interview with an official of the PCT on BBC Radio 4 yesterday).
That is as near to being fired as makes no difference.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

britain is/was a christian country I mean if it was islamic country then I would be obeying the islamic rules but I'm not and there is no such thing as an atheist because they pray to God by sying OH GOD if they didn't believe in God why metion his name

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

Lizzie Cornish wrote:"Nooooooo.... This isn't about religion as such. This is about KINDNESS!

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else! She wasn't 'trying to force her beliefs down the patient's throat'...and it stuns me, and worries the absolute beejayzus out of me that some folks can't see this".


This just highlights the fact that you're not grasping an important point here - which is repeated by lumping your examples about decorating and helping people up steps &c in with this particular story. Kindness and good deeds are generally welcomed by everyone - even the most misanthropic of us. However, when that kindness or good deed is couched or framed in specific religious expression - which it was in this case, it wasn't just kindness - it has 'extra' implications; implications that aren't necessarily welcomed. That religious expression can be any religion - it's not about marginalising Christianity per se.

The other things you've listed might appear to be the same but they're not. Each has unique issues around it.

As weird as it might seem to you, some people are happier to struggle with something. I've known people in wheelchairs who genuinely do get aggrieved with people offering to help like that as they think it robs them of what independence they do have. I'm not in a wheelchair but, as someone who has had a chronic stammer through various parts of his life, there's nothing more infuriating than someone 'trying to help' by finishing off my sentences.

Serious question, as much as I hate the litigation culture that we've imported from the U.S., what would happen if you did get sued, Lizzie? Also, what would have happened if you'd had a serious accident whilst you were decorating the consulting room and treatment room? Not a daft question as it's more likely than you think. Or you perhaps if you accidentally damaged some expensive equipment? How would you stand there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:15 AM

who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:18 AM

Nickhere wrote: "For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there.

But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law".

No, that's a different argument entirely and it's not really what this story is about. Perhaps a suspension and investigation was harsh, but the nurse knew what the rules of conduct were in the first place, and if for whatever reason she didn't - which I'd find hard to believe - she was certainly made aware of it the after her earlier warning.

I'm not sure the analogy with the TV license works either. One example is a woman doing something she had already been told not to do during her employer's time, the other is about an old woman not paying a bill. You might want to try and stifle this with claims of 'political correctness gawn maaad!' but it's not really about what you're claiming.


olddude wrote: "you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story".

It's not political correctness that stops me getting involved, it's because twice I've had a weapon (a gun and a knife) waved in my face for trying to help - the second time actually by the person I was trying to help.

If I lived in the U.S. I'd be even more worried about the gun issue. It's not about cowardice (if it was, I wouldn't have ever tried to intervene in the first place) just acknowledging the fact I'm not Superman and invulnerable to guns and knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM

Goatfell wrote: "but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore"

I'd say that it was still culturally Christian, but the amount of bums on seats every Sunday tell another story. Is it a country of practising Christians? I'd hedge a bet that it's not. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just pointing to the reality of the situation.

All religious discrimination is wrong and I do think that Christians are often targeted in one sense (Dawkins et al), but I don't think it's similar to some of the stick that a lot of Muslims and Hindus get - for example - for their beliefs. For every incident of Muslims getting some kind of 'privilige' over Christians, I bet there's more than a dozen cases of them getting flak for their beliefs outside the walls of politically correct offices &c. I wouldn't like to be a Muslim in this country any time that there's an incident of 'Islamic terrorism' somewhere in the world.

Also, the idea of 'Britain being a Christian country' underlines the idea that Christianity is kind of the default belief. No matter how much Christians think they're maligned, at least their beliefs are accepted as being a 'real' religion - a lot of non-Christian beliefs don't even get that courtesy.


"But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is. that what gets me".

This story is set in an old woman's private home - her house - that's not really about Christians not being allowed to pray in public. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone of a non-Christian faith praying in public. Where does this happen exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:46 AM

Goatfell:"who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe"

Pithy riposte, Goatfell. Original, too. Hey, if you disagree with me, though, please just say. No need to assume I have any supernatural powers.

By the way, isn't this traditionally a heathen country? Aren't the Christians just johnny-come-latelys chancing their arms with their new-fangled religions?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

So many people in this thread are saying "if she was of another faith rather than Christian, the management would not have had a go at her."

So easy to slip off the tongue or keyboard, yet so wrong.

One of the main reasons why religion has its place in certain aspects of healthcare and not others is to allow people to work or be cared for without awkward connotations. Yes, you may well feel that you are a muslim or christian or whatever all the time, but clinicians have a duty they all understand as professionals, not to let it interfere with their duty of care.

If they did, then some doctors or nurses would not feel it appropriate to talk to or touch members of the opposite sex, or may not feel it appropriate to give contraceptive or abortion care. Consent of a female patient would only count if it was given by their husband or father in many faiths...

Luckily, clinicians, and I mean doctors, nurses and allied health professionals have a professional duty of care that is not subject to religious view, and the NHS employer, together with the accreditation body that governs their registration (Nursing and Midwifery Council in this case) give the legal right to practice their skills subject to conditions. This nurse was clearly breaking those conditions.

Just out of interest, a staff grade Muslim doctor at a local trust had his hours (and therefore pay) reduced when he kept patients waiting at his Friday clinic as he dropped everything for Friday prayers. This was not acceptable as he was contracted to be working to the end of the clinic.

I know it can seem wrong that a kind offer to pray for a patient can get you in trouble, but nurses are professionals with a code of conduct to work by, and she entered the patient's house as a nurse, not a well wisher.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

As an atheist who does say 'oh god' sometimes I would like to point out I also use phrases like 'blimey' and 'bugger me' and don't actually require any of these in reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

Nice post Ian. As an "allied health professional" myself, I'd say you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:40 AM

Actually, Mrs Duck, I think if I was blinded and buggered every time I cursed, I might end up seeking divine intervention...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

Haven't read all this thread. But what would disturb me most strongly about a situation such as this "praying for you" lark is IMO there is a potential sub-text of proselytisation.

No knowledge about the case in question, and as it happens I do believe that faith healing, as well as positive vibes or whatever, can be genuinely beneficial. But I do loathe the way some religions go out of their way to make converts of the weak and vulnerable. It's a slippery slope from allowing members of secular professions to dabble in spiritual ministering, to allowing them to proselytise and seek out converts from those dependent upon them.

And what if the situation were a Nurse who also happened to be a Witch, were to offer to do a spell on behalf of a devout Catholic. Probably not a lot of difference in the the possible metaphysical equations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

well Spleen Cringe I disagree with youin that I have never said anything bad about muslims i bet that there are good and bad in everyone but as for you Spleen Cringe and your athiest frinds I'll say a wee pray for you. if people in this country want to prctise their faiths then let them do it and let us Christains do it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

Nickhere, no need to apologise. I read the same book.:-)

I give thanks to the Universe/Cosmic/Great Spirit/Mother-Father God of my Heart/whatever one chooses to call "it."

I am picky about the wording of my thanks givings because I believe in the power of words, written, spoken, and thought, and that is one reason why I do NOT want unknown prayers said for me. I believe we can "program" our subconsciousness, just like a computer because it believes anything we put into it, so that it works to manifest whatever we say is Truth. No, I do not believe the power of other folks' prayers can harm me esp. BUT, as it is an intensely personal thing for me, I prefer to keep it private.

The person doing such may have no idea what is best for me or what is needed. Unless I know they are turning their will over to the "Cosmic" by using the thanks for this or something better for the highest good of all concerned I don't want their prayers. I had too many years of ultra-religious family members who *thought* they knew what was best and would tell me they were "praying really hard" for whatever. That right there is wrong, to me. To "pray hard" sets up a negative environment for the subconsciousness to bring about.

So, that's all I am going to say. If I ask, then prayers, good thoughts, etc. are most welcome. If not, no thanks. IMO, the nurse should not have offered unless the patient requested it. In all my years as a nurses' aide and EMT, I never imposed my beliefs on any of my patients and if I'd been told specifically NOT to do by my employer, I sure wouldn't have gone on to do so and I say that as a non-Christian, so it has nothing to do with what religion one might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

Okay, Goatfell, fair enough. I'm not a petty person, so I'll just apologise for getting you all wrong. I tend to assume that all this "it's christian country, 'you' should follow 'our' rules," palaver is a coded dig at other religions, such as Islam.

And just for the record, I have no problem with people practising their faith. Just not mixing it up with doing their job (unless they're some sort of priest... but at least you can usually see them coming, what with the fancy dress).

If you're going to pray for me, I'll return the favour by thinking a positive rational thought for you. Fair deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

LOL, Spleen Cringe!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:05 PM

I love all religons I tihnk that they all have great bits and also bad parts as well if some wants to practise their faith good ahead I don't have any problem with that and I do Like Muslims and every other faith so it wasn't a dig at the muslims or anyother faith if they want to worship whoever then that's up to them it just eejits of these faith that I don't like including CHristains you've got to remember a Christian is somtime narrow minded in certain things that they can't see the bigger picture I try and see the bigger picture but I sometimes get it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

Since when has this been a christian country? For it to be a christian country those within it would have to lead a christian life. do comments like "who died and made you God? " and "Gawd, we've lost the plot haven't we.(doesnt it say somewhere Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vane)" "Bloody Little Hitlers!" and calling an older person a "Daft old biddy" actually set a good christian example?