Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

"Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism."

I don't agree.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Multiculturalism took on new meaning for me last night when the International Folk Dance group (Seattle), out of close to 40 dances we did, enjoyed the Greek dance Syrtos to the music of Ruby Love, Cat Stevens and the Turkish dance Sweet Girl to the Beatles Do you Need Anybody. No one complained about "tradition"; everyone had fun. Tradition is important to the point that is becomes a hindrance - maintained without being worshipped?

"Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

"To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted."

The FaF has a very *specific* focus to raise awareness of the BNP's activities, because English/British traditional music and folk customs are being *specifically targeted by the BNP* for far-right wing propaganda.

As RA explained below, the organisation was created to counter propagandist activities of the BNP targeting English traditional music and custom. It could have been called: "Campaign to raise awareness about, and challenge the British National Party's politicisation of Traditional English and British music and customs." But it would be less catchy. However I think the Facebook page makes the remit very clear.

No doubt if the organisation develops and gains momentum, the brief could be expanded in time to encompass broader issues. But IMHO it's far too early to demand it extend itself beyond this immediate challenge, at such an early point in its conception.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM

When some BNP members made appreciative noises about Bellowhead John Boden gave a suitable response.He put an anti fascist sticker on his fiddle and spoke out against the BNP.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:38 PM

Crow sister - How did you guess? :-)

Rifleman - Stop siniping :-P

David el Gnomo antigua

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

"Let's get some FAF gigs sorted!"

There's a meeting at the beginning of July to discuss a concert tour of major venues, but it will be important to have events of all sizes, appealing to different types of audience.

More news as it becomes available, but it's all looking quite exciting.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Azizi,

I think your post on the atrocities in Nigeria fit well within the "Folk Against Fascism"
agenda. It has to be recognized that throughout history and the world, Africans and African-Americans and Blacks, Asians, Hispanics all have been victimized by fascism which contains the component of discrimination by race and culture. To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted. FAF must address the larger issues in order to be effective in informing how folk music is used as a social force for change.

What happens in Africa affects us all. It resonates in communities all over the world.

At the present time, fascism is rearing its ugly head in many countries including the US.
Mussolini's definition of fascism prevails today in the form of corporate tyranny in the world's economy. It impacts on every country in the world.

Power, greed and money are the three major components of fascism and the capitulation
of world leaders to this ideology are evident. At stake are the goals of the IMF, NAFTA and the other financial bodies that promote "Free Trade" without "Fair Trade". The former is fascistic, the latter, anti-fascist.

Thanks for keeping us informed about Africa.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM

How promising and interesting too.
I suspect that younger people (of whatever background - but in particular including British folk) will generally be more interested in becoming involved that kind of positive pro-action than some of the older folk enthusiasts who may prefer a more conservative form of action. Though to be fair to DeG there (who isn't I believe a yung'un?), that was an excellent post IMO...

Inevitably some forms of participation in FaF, will be more reserved than others, while some will be more dynamic and challenging. I believe what matters is not that all participants agree on a single *unified method of action*, but that each do what they *enjoy* and are *happy to*, while maintaining a *unified purpose*.

Though there can never be any harm in trying something new once in a while for anyone...?

I think the thing to hopefully attempt to maintain in view throughout, is that the music is there to be shared and enjoyed. If people are not genuinely enjoying their form of activism (though of course there are unpleasant challenges for those in very public view), then something needs to be reconsidered.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM

My idea seems to have gone down well.
There is every possibility that the Birmingham based Urban Jungli Project will be recording a set of British Folk songs.
It's a sort of reverse multi-culturalism, by which people with roots in other cultures are invited to share their take on the native one.
I can't be bothered with all the arguing on here, I just want use our music to lay down a marker about what the real Britain is, as a counter to the racist and factional nonsense that is coming out of the woodwork recently.
Let's get some FAF gigs sorted!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM

Ruth, yes, I was aware of the history and all the various reasons why Englishness has been a difficult thing to deal with. And this is precisely why I'm concerned that we shouldn't feel we have to be defensive if some of our folk clubs continue to concentrate on what they've always concentrated on. I think it's interesting that Dick and I are making substantially similar points - he lives in Ireland, I live in Wales, and both of us can see the difference in countries that are proud of their own culture.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,coolkieless Rifleman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

"BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about."

I'll rest easy in my bed knowing that.........

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM

Dick, Greg does indeed organise some very good multicultural sessions and concerts. Although I am sure he needs no-one to fight his corner for him I do know he could be too busy to respond for a few days.

I don't think anyone is advovating that traditional English music should be somehow banned or restricted. All we are saying is that it is simply because most clubs do have a image of English exclusivity, rightly or wrongly, then it does encourage organsisations lik ethe BNP to latch on to them.

As you say, we have Irish centres, Cajun clubs etc. I, for one, have sung and English song at an Irish club. I have not been to a Cajun club but I am pretty sure they would be happy with me squeezing out an Englsh tune in a Cajun style. As long as the BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about.

Greg is one of the people that is that is doing just that. Alongside playing and promoting some very fine English music and it is doing the cause of FaF no good to argue between ourselves!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

"the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery"

try telling that to several cities where there are more than one BNP member sitting on council, Stoke-on-Trent comes to mind.

While I'm posting this,I'm listening to Sandy Denny's wonderful recording The North Star Grassman and the Ravens, Late November at the moment, and I got to wondering what, if anything, Sandy would have made of all this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

Azizi,I was adressing Greg Stephens.
nobody accuses the hammersmith irish centre of being racist because it promotes Irish music,nobody accuses CAJUN MUSIC CLUBS of being racist because they specialise in one kind of music,you cannot have one rule for some and another rule for others.
Iam in favour of multi national folk music clubs ,I am also in favour of clubs/ societies that promote exclusively one kind of music.
what I am fighting against,is the BNP hijacking our music,and the attitude of certain people to dictate what club organisers should have as booking policies,leave that up to the organisers,if you dont like it start your own club,instead of whingeing on this forum.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 05:02 AM

"As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet."

That statement is worth examining in the context of the wider discussion here.

We shouldn't forget that it's in large part the legacy of the pre-BNP (the National Front) which got us to this place. They did such damage to the whole concept of English nationalism in the 80s, by linking it to racism, that it has never recovered. Now those very same people (many of whom now run the new-look BNP) are capitalising on the legacy THEY CREATED to say to white English people, "All these other cultures can celebrate their identity - why can't you? Why should you have to be embarrassed?"

I find it incredibly perverse that they present themselves as the solution to a problem they not only created, but would, if they became more powerful, both strengthen and perpetuate.

I can't believe there are people who fall for their rhetoric.

The other thing to say to people who tell us that the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery, is that it only took a tiny minority back in the 80s to bring English nationalism into such disrepute that 25 years later it has not yet recovered.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM

Azizi: You said it yourself:
"My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda."

That is why I am supporting FAF. Any diversions into yet more discussion of Darkie Days and Blacked up Morris, only dilutes and distracts from the present mission. You have agreed that Americans have a diifferent view of this than us over here. Let's leave it at that for now and concentrate on the real issue. Other threads exist to discuss blacking up in all its guises.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 04:27 AM

Oh, Greg, if you meant me when you referred to "multicultural compulsion" then I wish you would read such comments in context. Your wish to invite performers to your club or session is great and I have often wished (and expressed that wish) that we had more diversity in our clubs and festivals.   
But what I am trying very hard to say is that where a folk club wants to concentrate on traditional English music (and wants to define that in whatever way they choose) there should be no implicit or explicit interpretation that they would be a home for BNP supporters. As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet.

Make the choices you want. I too would go out of my way to hear South African black unaccompanied singers - although as people have a tendency to sing along in most UK folk clubs I wouldn't necessarily think that was the best venue for hearing their voices.

And I used the phrase "multicultural compulsion" because I have lived with that in my professional life for some time, both in teaching and in storytelling. Too often it's a matter of lipservice to qualify for funding or political approval rather than an intelligent choice. If you're making intelligent choices, I'm in your corner.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 01:41 AM

Goid point... flooding implies that the UK popylation would rise from aproximately 60 million to 90 million in a short period of time. I hink in my lifetime (nearly 50 years) it has risen by about 6 million.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM

"This is ugly but no doubt true

As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase."

This is one of the scare tactics used by the BNP to whip up paranoia: they talk aobut whites becoming a minority in Britain in just a few decades due to unregulated immigration. They talk about being "flooded". But immigration into the UK is, in fact, strictly regulated. And Britain is still 92% white.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM

Joan, thanks very much for that information. I wasn't familiar with that "BME" term.

With regard to "black"/"Black", I learned from another Mudcat thread that in Britain some Asian people such as those from Sri Lanka and Pakistan are also called "black". This is different from the custom/definition in the USA. I recognize that this is tangential to this thread. However I believe that this example points out the difficulties that are inherent to an international discussion forum.

I recognize that and understand why most of the members of the Folk Against Fascism group are now and probably will always be from Britain. However, if more Americans join the FaF group, there will be other examples such as the "nationalities" means "races" in Britain that demonstrate the differences in terminology that are between us and which may cause problems if not properly explained and understood.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

Here's one reason why as an American I'm concerned about the issues of White supremacists organizations/political parties such as the BNP:

"Guys like this [former politician/current television news commentator Pat Buchanan] really do scare me

The xenophobia, the ultra-nationalism, the utter contempt for rule of law... if the Republican Party becomes the party of this clown, and of Sarah Palin, they may lose more of the electorate, but we have also lost something important. I the only person who misses an Eisenhower-style Republican Party? Conservative, wrong, but not hateful? I would like to see a real opposition party based on real ideas, based on some kernal of rationality - even if I don't agree with their specific policies.

Maybe in a changing nation clowns like this asshole undermine Republican electoral chances. Maybe they will be marginalized for a generation or until they change or until they fall apart completely. But unexpected disasters can and do happen. Economies can melt down, violent events can take place, and the public is easily stampeded. It scares the crap out of me to see the opposition turning into this sort of nativist nationalist - indeed fascist - opposition. "

by ivorybill on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 05:26:41 PM PDT

**

"This is ugly but no doubt true

As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase.

Even in Europe the demographic changes resulting from immigration are driving a massive increase in far-right white racial separatist and supremacist politics. WHith the US's much deeper heriatage of racist exclusivism and lack of a leftist tradition to siphon social tensions into class-based politics, racial confrontation politics on the part of whites, especially among the marginalized, poor, working-class, and small-town population, is very likely to be one of the dominating features of AMerican politics for the next 30 years."

by ActivistGuy on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:57:44 PM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/12/741739/-MSNBC,-Pat-BuchananWhite-Supremacists

MSNBC, Pat Buchanan & White Supremacists
by BarbinMD
Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:50:06 PM PDT

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:31 PM

The current phrase that equates with PoC in Britain is BME (black and minority ethnic). But it's primarily used in government and funding circles. Most British people still just say black.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM

Captain Birdseye,

If you are specifically asking me a question or questions, I would appreciate it if you would address those questions to me by name.

If you are asking if I criticize clubs that focus on specific music genres for specializing in specific music genres, of course I don't.

With regard to British folk clubs that focus on "English traditional music", my point is that I'm not sure what "English traditional music" means and I'm not sure if everyone in England-including Black Britons (in general) and other British People of Color-agrees on what that referent means. Ditto for English folk music-which I gather from reading Mudcat threads isn't necessarily the same thing as "English traditional music".

In addition, I don't agree with your comment (one that I read before on this thread or other threads from you and/or from others) that "if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS, then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating.
There are other ways that racism can be expressed and/or condoned apart from excluding "other nationalities" from participating.

[my italics added for emphasis]

BTW, I assume when you wrote "other nationalities" that you meant what Americans would refer to as "race" since quite a number of People of Color are British, that is-they are the same nationality as White British people.

As I write this, I'm mindful that I learned from some other Mudcat discussions that there is not only a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "race" but there is also a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "Black [people]". The referent "People of Color (PoC) as I am using it to refer to all those persons who are considered [in the USA at least] to be non-White) has become widely used in formal & scholarly discussions at least among PoC.

The fact that sometimes British English and American English are "foreign languages" to their residents may mean that we don't always "get" (understand) the nuances of what people are saying on this international discussion forum. Added to that is the fact that there are also Canadians, Australians, people from other European nations, and other folks posting on this forum and probably also on this thread-and add to that fact that we also include colloquial expressions and are each speaking from our own experiences, it's a wonder that we appear to understand each other as well as we do.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:47 PM

I do not view black singers singing in folk clubs with hostility.
Folk club organisers ,have the right to book who they wish.
These decisions will vary,Vic Smith will have had a different booking policy,say to the Ruskin house folk and blues club,or to Traditions at the Tiger,what is wrong with that.,is there any evidence that any organisers are racist,if there is then name them if not shut up.
if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS,then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating.

Mission Statement & Strategy
MISSION STATEMENT:

The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to:

• maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
• provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
• celebrate diversity and promote equality.
are you suggesting that the EFDSS,should put up a notice saying Whites only at Cecil Sharp House,if you are, then it is you that is racist.
if the EFDSS has a brief to promote English traditional music and song,is it not reasonable to accept that other Folksong clubs if they so wish should not do the same.
do you criticise BLUES CLUBS for promoting one specific music,and excluding English Traditional music,no I bet you dont,neither do you criticise Cajun Music Clubs for promoting Cajun Music exclusively.,do you criticise the Northumbrian Pipers society for promoting Northumbrian Pipe tunes.
please answer these questions

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:16 PM

Joan, I posted my comment before reading yours.

I agree that the discussion of blackening up should not continue on this particular Mudcat thread. FWIW, I'm not interested at this time in in continuing that discussion beyond what I wrote in my preceding comment to this thread and my previous comments in other Mudcat threads.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM

I remain unconvinced that there is no historical connection between the British custom of blackening up and the American blackface minstrel shows (which toured widely in Britain). That said-I admit that I don't have-(as Jack Campin) phrased it-"a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual" and therefore I don't know what blackening up means to different populations of British people-including those who blackened up in the past (and sung minstrel songs, including songs with the "N" word) and those who blacken up now (who may or may not sing minstrel songs, including those with the "N" word-a word I find offensive regardless of the race of person singing it.

In 2005 and 2007 I asked if any research studies had been done on the attitudes about blackening up that are held by People of Color in the United Kingdom.

"Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

I repeat a question I asked in 2005: Have there been any research studies of the impact of UK blackening up traditions on self-esteem and group-esteem of people of colour in the UK and on White people in the UK? If so, what were those studies and what were their results?"
thread.cfm?threadid=87981#1943998

-snip-

It is now 2009 and I'm asking the same question. Surely some reputable research has been done on this subject. I would appreciate it if someone could point me to reports of such studies.

As I wrote earlier in this thread or another recent Mudcat thread about the BNP, I realize that everyone who supports the Folk Against Fascism group and its mission will not agree on everything. Regardless of the rationale that most British Mudcatters have made for blackening up (that it is a disguise) and regardless of the comparisons that some African performers have made to the British custom of blackening up and the custom of using white ashes or white face and body paint in traditional African rituals and blackening up, I still don't like the British custom of blackening up. Because I am an American, I realize that I don't have to like it, but again, I wonder how Black Britons and other British people of color feel about this. I also wonder what Black Britons in general and other British People of Color consider to be "British traditional folk music". Perhaps it's as difficult if not impossible for one definition of "British traditional folk music" from British People of Color as it is from Mudcat members in general. However, I don't think that this is a tangential question to the mission/issues of the Folk Against Fascism group.

My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM

"Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess."

It's more than a guess: Azizi has been party to the various mudcat discussions about the roots of blacking up in minstrelsey, as well as those about Padstow Darkie Days. Personally, I think the issue of whether blacking up is acceptable is far from an open and shut case within the folk world, and that even "a close-up experience of the the sociology of British folk ritual" doesn't necessarily tell you what those acts "mean". But I'd prefer not to discuss it on this particular thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:28 PM

Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now.

Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess.

I still haven't had any response to my query about what the BNP might be up to with regard to the Scottish folk scene. Excalibur did include a few Scottish numbers in their catalogue so they're not totally ignoring us. Nobody know more?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM

hello all,
i can't see why it should even be an issue if the person sitting next to you is black and singing or white and singing, as long as everyone is having a good time and hopefully singing in tune( me included) it's all good. why should anyone be offended by what we sing? we sing songs of love, compassion, gaitey, and strife, which anyone who understands the language could identify with. why would anyone want an all white folk club on purpose? i always thought that anyone was welcome ,if you know anywhere like that,, please tell me so i can make sure i never go there.

i join in with the bits i can of foriegn singers so i wouldn't have thought there would be an issue. (if i don't like the song i simply go for a smoke break) lol

take care all

j x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM

It does happen, Greg. We managed to get Sherrifo booked into a number of folk clubs on those tours - including our own in Lewes, of course.

Other recent guests at our club have included Abdul Tee-Jay giving a wonderful evening of Palm-Wine music from Sierra Leone which - like Southern African harmony - fits well into the folk club setting and Musa M'Boob's masterly drumming in a pairing with Roger Watson's melodeon.

And the guest list at the Magpie's Nest has included a locally-based Congolese band.

Get me to tell you the story of Rev. Gary Davis staying at our flat after the folk club some time; I remember it really well though it was nearly forty years ago now.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM

Shit I used to be happy to pay to see Johnny Silvo, a grand singer. Still would be. I've never seen a folk club disrespect a folksong singer from a different ethnicity.

Rifleman - I am coming to like some of your posts more and more. Some of the time!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM

I made a modest suggestion that it might be nice to invite Zimbabwean friends down to the pub singsong or folk club. A capella African sits very attractively and pleasantly alongside Coppers harmony songs. I am surprised(well I'm not really) that this simple suggestion has been turned into "multi cultural compulsion" by another poster. I appreciate that there are about three posters on this thread who view the idea of a black singer visiting a folk club with hostility, but I am very pleased that the vast majoriy of folkies here in Britain would be absolutely delighted by a such a visit, and would be very welcoming. On that basis I will continue to arrange such visits, which luckily have so far led to very nice social occasions. AS far as I am concerned, a folk club is a folk club. If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

Well done for your last post, Vic. Common sense demonstrated by a very clear example.

Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I'm a bit concerned that we are expected to put photos of ourselves on the petition.
Since there has been for some time a photo of me talking to ANL supporters picketing an NF stall at a fete - a stall which, despite the woman running it claiming she was not ashamed of her party, did not show who it was, and was happy to take money from the local Indian population, I am a little cautious of contributing more information to their database.Photos are part of their intimidation techniques.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

Folknacious, I'm still trying to work out why you quoted Billy Bragg's song at me. You think I don't know the history of these islands and our folklore? I think you missed the point of my posts, and as you're accusing others of being dense that's a bit ironic.

I'll try to keep it simple. As someone who is NOT "half English" I want the same right to claim and support my cultural heritage as someone from another background, without any risk of hi-jack from the BNP or any other political group. Like anyone else, I also want to be able to incorporate other influences (or not), invite participation (or not) from other people who share my ethnicity (or not)and not feel I'm doing this out of compulsion or coercion either to attempt the strange phenomenon of "multicultural diversity" or to cock a snook at the BNP.

My fears about the multicultural compulsion come after years of teaching in Hackney and Tower Hamlets.   It feeds the fears of the "Little Englanders" who are the target audience of the BNP. Only when the English (and I'm deliberately not saying British in this context) feel they can express pride in their own cultural heritage and feel it's equally valued by the media and grant-funders will we de-fuse that particular situation.

Me, I love the rich mix of Britain in all of its diversity. I'm also an enthusiastic supporter of our indigenous culture. Please don't preach at me, even through the words of Billy Bragg.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM

Here's my contribution to the blacked-up faces part of this thread.......

Twice in recent years, whilst we were organising British tours for our great friend, the Gambian kora player and singer, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, we have managed to get him booked at the Tenterden Folk Festival. This was great for Sherrifo because he loves all aspects of traditional culture wherever they are from. At one of these we were watching the Saturday afternoon procession and a blacked-up border morris team danced by.

"Why do they put black on their faces?" Sherrifo asked.
My reply was that it was to help to disguise their faces.

"Oh yes. Like the Fula dancers that I took you to see in Busara." he replied.

That reminded me that on one of our trips to The Gambia, Sherrifo had taken us to a boys' circumcision/coming-of-age ceremony in a village in the south of the country and the Fulas in that village - it was a predominately Mandinka village - that were going to be dancing covered their faces with a sort of white chalky mud.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM

WV the whole purpose of this is to stop extreme right-wing politics highjacking folk music for their evil ends. Read the posts!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM

Folknacious, you are getting this so utterly wrong that I don't quite know how to get through to you. Busy for the next couple of days. I might try and get back to you on Sunday. In the meantime, have a think about what you are saying.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

note the use of for FOLK sake...I've seen the usage somewhere before on these threads, damned if I can remember who used it though....

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM

Reminds me of someone going out of their way to watch dodgy porn, and then exclaiming in moral affront to the world, how dreadful and shocking their dodgy porn viewing experience was!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music"

Oh look a Welsh troll *LOL

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Welsh Viv
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Folknacious, some people WANT to be offended, they feel their day simply isn't made unless they feel offended at least a half dozen times.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

There was no such implication. The only "implication" was exactly what it said: that people who [b]aren't[/b] BNP supporters but want - and why not? - to have a specialist white Brit trad music policy for a club have to pick their words carefully to avoid it inadvertently looking like they're saying the same thing as the BNP manifesto. And that adding support for FAF would be a good way of helping that.

Nobody said you had to book folk music from other cultures. Or were a BNP supporter. Just that you jump to conclusions that aren't there . . . which makes me wonder why you're so over-defensive.

Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM

Well I think I know what I am going to do.
I'll get the crew who were involved in this together again:-
Colourblind Cafe
and record some folk tunes and songs. The example is a multi lingual Jazz track- but you'll get the message!
The project includes people from four continents and a dozen national origins.
A good British band who will bring a world feel to British tunes.
And let the blasted BNP find some comfort in that if they can!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM

With reference to "blacking up" in the UK, it doesn't have the connotations it might have in the USA as the following may illustrate.

Two weekends ago, I was dancing at Thaxted at a large Morris Ring gathering (about 400 morris dancers etc.). After we'd danced for the day, we (being rapper sword dancers) thought we'd like to dance inside a pub with a decent floor. Went in and found the Britannia Coconut dancers (very trad. Lancashire morris who black up ... looking, as has been said, like coal miners) and on the front corner of the bar a black morris dancer from a team in the West Country. All just talking together affably.

No fuss. No suggestion of anything racial. Just a bunch of blokes having a convivial pint. All male of course, cos this is the Morris Ring, but that's another theme (and something I find quite difficult in itself).

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

Jack Campin: "Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP."

I must agree with Jack here, too much damage done by whites 'in the name of' race relations has already occurred in the UK. It generates antipathy towards the cultures it purports to protect and is too often counterproductive. I believe in depth dialogues with British black people, would have to occur before anyone started intensive alterations of long existant native traditions 'on their behalf'.

As for the N word, I've only ever heard OF it being used second hand, though the context was very ugly sounding - and there is a clear danger in such practices gaining popularity amongst BNP 'folkies'. But I do think it aught to be actively discouraged in any folk gathering, due to the potential wrongful abuse of 'historical accuracy' and 'tradition'.

I liked the post by SPB-Cooperator however: "Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts." As any such declaration, must deter fascists from indulging in 'traditional' practices for racist reasons.

Nice post from Ruth A there too. Sorry to hear about the trashy intimidation tactics - much respect to you for being willing to undertake organising a public response to this this challenge to folk traditions and the the folk community.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

Folknacious

Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with?

Er, all of it. I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear.
FOLKNACOIUS these were your words,you said that it is only just justifiable with difficulty.
it is perfectly justifiable.
The Northumbrian PipersSociety,EFDSS,Comhaltas,the Strathspey and Reel society,[Icould probably find more examples]All have as their aim the promotion of one specific music,rather than the promotion of international folk music,it only becomes RACIST OR UNJUSTIFIABLE when they exclude someoneFROM PLAYING MUSIC on race grounds.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG


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