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Folk Against Fascism
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM and other one. is this accurate richard? It's so sad to see the failed musician Bruce still losing his composure on the cat. I see Emma B now wants to join in the fun and games ! I had hoped they would have taken up my offer of dropping the subject of the BNP on the cat, sadly not. Well if that is the way they wish to play, we can all continue in the fun and gaiety. As I said, I am a member of the BNP and mudcat, I never discuss my politics on the cat, just my love of folk music. If they leave my politics alone, then we can all be happy. I received two pm's today on the cat which saddened me to no end, great people, but a touch meddlesome. I am also a member of Red watch. Hope you have a wonderful evening. George Davis this was from 'richard bridge'. how stupid are they that they are forgetting whose name they are using???????? take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM I'm not taking issue with you either Peace but just yelling expletives (deleted or otherwise) is just reacting on the same leval as the street thugs and not exposing the true nature of the BNP and its more covert organizations. Pax? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM "Redwatch is hosted by a US server, so outside the jurisdiction of the British authorities, and as a result it is protected under the First Amendment to the US Constitution, which enshrines Freedom of Speech - however the recent test case here may make that subject to review" Being hosted in America doesn't make it fall outside UK jurisdiction. The site orginates in Britain and the perpetrators are therefore, liable to prosecution under UK law. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Jul 09 - 02:25 PM Actually the UK government does have the tools to prevent UK access (for the most part) to the Redwatch site and even to bar all Dreamhost sites from (almost all) UK ISPs. It is called "cleanfeed" and ISPA "encourages" all UK ISPs to use it. There is an official list of proscribed sites. If the user tries to access a proscribed site he gets "404 site not found" and the attempt to access the site is counted. ISPs say that the IP address of the user is not logged, but I have never believed that. It was designed to disable access to child pornography sites, but there is nothing at all to stop Dreamhost sites being added to the proscribed list. Since it is -er- only semi official no doubt the Government could deny their involvement too. Just google "cleanfeed" and run down the lists a way. There are other things also called cleanfeed but this one its there too. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 16 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM I am not taking issue with you, Emma. However, I am of the opinion that because the police do not really help it's imperative to deal with the leaders--those who give the orders--not the assholes who carry out those orders. Why leave the 'brains' alone? They are even more guilty than their followers. If a rattlesnake is gonna bite you, there isn't much sense cutting off the tail. That just makes the noise. The business end is the head. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:31 AM " I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before?" Redwatch also has a Polish site hosted also by the American based Dreamhost** In Warsaw 2 years ago an activist named Maciek was critically injured and almost killed when two nazis stabbed, kicked, and pepper sprayed him after Maciek's personal data appeared on redwatch.info - Attempted murder of an antifascist Writing in response to the existence of the Polish Redwatch site, which mirrors the British site closely, lawyers from Proskauer Rose LLP say "The content of Redwatch's site is not protected speech under the First Amendment because it constitutes a true threat," says the firm's report. "The right to free speech is not absolute. Although the First Amendment does safeguard speech advocating violence, well-established law dictates that the right to free speech does not include threats of violence." Precedent for taking action against websites can be found in Planned Parenthood v American Coalition of Life Activists (ACLA). A court in the US found that the anti-abortion group went beyond free speech in listing the names and addresses of abortion doctors on a website called the "Nuremberg Files". ACLA claimed that the website merely collated information on doctors for possible use in legal action against those involved in abortion. The court disagreed and viewed the site as threatening, especially as two of the listed doctors were subsequently killed. Black lines were put through their pictures on the site. Although the ACLA website did not explicitly call for violence against these doctors, the court took into account the history of "pro-life" violence against abortion doctors The Polish Government has twice asked its American counterparts to close down Redwatch. On both occasions the site was removed. ** "DreamHost strongly believes in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees its citizens freedom of speech and freedom of the press, among other things (both of which can apply to websites). We made a business decision long ago to value freedom of speech above any potential offense someone might take over the content of a site hosted by us." |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:07 AM " I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before?" Redwatch is a nazi website that reproduces photographs and home details of anyone who does not share their racist outlook. Some of those targeted are called "scum", others "retards", but ALL are being set up for intimidation and in some cases violence. In many cases the pictures are unidentified but linked to some are names and addresses, car registrations, phone numbers and even workplaces One Redwatch target was the Yorkshire Evening Post journalist Pete Lazenby. An NUJ activist with a proud history of exposing racism and fascism, Lazenby has long been a thorn in the side of Yorkshire's nazis. "We need to find this reporter fast," read one messageon the Redwatch 'closed' Yahoo group. "If we can scare this cunt off then we might get an easier time instead of being slagged off and made to look a bunch of muppets." Alongside the personal information on their targets, the secret members of the Yahoo Redwatch site are offered bomb manuals. The Anarchist Cookbook, simple light-bomb designs and a guide to making plastic explosives are all available. 'Redwatch was originally published in paper form by the far right racialist group Combat 18 in March 1992, when its slogan was "oderint dum metuant": "let them hate as long as they fear". Anyone listed on Redwatch (and their families) may be at increased risk of violence from far right supporters. There have been many reports to the police of people suffering death threats after their details have appeared on the website. A Leeds teacher who complained about a far right activist, Tony White, leafleting his school, had his details listed on Redwatch, after the jailing of White. Far right supporters then firebombed the teacher's car. Merseyside TUC organiser Alec McFadden received death threats shortly after his details appeared on the website. At precisely the same time, Joe Owens, an official Merseyside BNP candidate with several convictions for violent offences, began sending him e-mails gloating that he had photographic details of his house, car, and family. Since standing as a Respect candidate in the May 2006 elections, McFadden has been physically attacked, including being stabbed in the face, in front of his two young daughters at his home' - wiki Redwatch is hosted by a US server, so outside the jurisdiction of the British authorities, and as a result it is protected under the First Amendment to the US Constitution, which enshrines Freedom of Speech - however the recent test case here may make that subject to review While the Redwatch site carries a disclaimer, which states that the site is not intended to target people for attack, this is unlikely to be a defence. Their and Combat 18's history of violence means that those identified on Redwatch can legitimately believe that they are under threat. Angela Eagle MP in a Commons debate urged ministers to take action against Redwatch, pointing out: "There appears to be a pattern of violence which is aimed at individuals who are targeted by this website which cannot simply be a coincidence..." Kevin Watmough, a veteran nazi, runs Redwatch as well as the Blood and Honour site, which offers advice on how to make bombs similar to those used in the terror attacks of 7 July |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:05 AM Ruth. Redwatch must be one of the most verminous sites on the Internet. Alec MacFadden, one of the subjects of the Guardian article you refer to, is a TUC activist on Merseyside, where I live. Within the past few months, Redwatch has again posted his address, with an invitation for far right nutters to pay him a visit. As a result of this, armed police were stationed outside his house for a whole week. Charming country we live in. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:44 AM this is why people take the BNP and Redwatch seriously. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:32 AM '"It is possible that by remaining friends with "Folk Against Fascism" your identity could appear on "RedWatch", making public aparance less safe."' Fick RedWatch, too. I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:28 AM FUsK the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Date: 16 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM Earlier on in this thread I posted a link to a Conservative organisation called There's Nothing British About the BNP. I did that because I felt the only way of tackling the menace of fascism is through a broad United Front, including absolutely everybody who believes in liberty and democracy, is anti-racist etc. That is still roughly where I'm at. However, I've had a communication from TNBATBNP which has caused me some food for thought. You can read it at http://www.nothingbritish.com/ . The communication consists of 10 questions to BNP leaders, most of which I would call fair comment. But question 4 reads:- "Won't your policy of seizing land and natural assets for communal ownership, and the redistribution of the ownership of British businesses replace the free market and rule of law with socialism and bring our economy to its knees?" Sounds as though TNBATBNP doesn't understand the difference between socialism and national socialsim. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:52 PM no wonder i couldn't find it i was looking at the wrong post!! duh!!! i am jealous, his message was better than the ones i have been getting, at least his was original. mine just copy huge amounts of stuff written here. thinking about it there are only a few who can actually read and write so maybe i am lucky that my troll knows how to. not to mention copy and paste. take care all... and please troll write to me soon, i miss your witty charisma(?) jade x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:33 PM This - "It is possible that by remaining friends with "Folk Against Fascism" your identity could appear on "RedWatch", making public aparance less safe." is a direct threat as far as I can see - pretty awful spelling too :) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 15 Jul 09 - 07:21 PM i agree that with enough rope... but at the same time we cannot let them get away with lying to the public, anymore than we can let them get away with the violent and bulling tacticts(?) they use. as long as we sound reasonable and are being truthful the world will see what monsters the diehards of the BNP are truely like. take care all jade x x x x ps has anyone heard when the merch will be ready? x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Date: 15 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM "and shows the tactics that BNP supporters are currently using" nothing original here, but then again that's one of the things the BNP can never be accused of, originality....oh and creativity. Give'em enough rope etc, etc..... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Date: 15 Jul 09 - 04:53 PM Andy Turner's post on the Folk Against Fascism thread on the fRoots Forum makes interesting reading and shows the tactics that BNP supporters are currently using. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ken mellor Date: 15 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM The definition of a patriot is a person who loves his own country. The definition of a nationalist is a person who hates all other countries. P.S. I like folk music but why is most of it depressing. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:59 PM they have started to use a different tack on me now. they are being really nasty about everyone else but trying to be nice to me, in order for me to think they are really ok. we all know that these people are very lonely and have no life of their own, but what i can't figure out is how they think this sudden change towards me will get me to think any different of them. i have three messages today, it is a wonder these people have time to eat or anything else. just so everyone is clear i hate what the BNP stands for and what they are trying to do, not only to our music but our country too. they want us divided i will not let them divy up my country like it is a piece of pie. the best thing about a pie is anything can be put inside it, like this country, it would be very bland if you only got the pastry. we would lose so much if they get their way. we are fighting for something very special and unique. sorry i got quite carried away, can you tell? take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:43 AM I agree with you, Jeri. To me, this just seems a sick way of drawing attention because 1) has to be a Mudcat member to access the photos and 2) use of a controversial issue is a convenient way to fill the need for attention even more. It's reminiscent of many years ago when someone started a new "katlaughing" membership here and supposedly posted as me. Thankfully that was stopped in its tracks. If facebook doesn't remove my picture, I will look into further action. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:42 AM They seek to impede progress with "Folk against Fascism" - not least by causing question marks over the bona fides of the real identities of the supporting members, and inhibiting inter-member communication. They seek to frighten people on whose doors they might knock, people who suddenly realise that the BNP might be able to trace them. THey want to silence them, by fair means or foul. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:11 AM By looking completely impotent as himself and fairly desperate? I'm not seeing it, Richard. If this is all the BNP can do, why does anybody really give a shit? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:02 AM Jeri, the BNP clone or clones are not merely or even mainly attention seekers. They are there to do the sinister work of the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:49 AM I don't know how it works, but I'd guess this guy could be sued and Facebook would have to provide information pertinent to the case, such as identity and/or tracking information. I am not a lawyer though. I'm thinking that, knowing the nature of Facebook, they know a LOT of stuff about this person. It might be in their best interest to find a way to ban him. Wikipedia seems to have found a way to stop him, and at least once there, he was identified by his IP address. Things you post, including photos, are copyrighted intellectual property. You can't copyright a name though (although you can register a trademark). That this nut takes out multiple memberships pretending he's other people shows me 1) he thinks he's worthless as himself (he's likely right), and 2) it's more about trolling/attention seeking than it is about anything else. This troll has no identity of his own and no apparent life unless someone is irritated with him, and he does a ridiculous amount of work just to piss people off. Think about what he's had to do to create those identities: gather personal info, steal and sometimes alter photos. What sort of person would do all that? I would strongly advise those of you who wish to give him the attention he craves find some sort of way to do it where HE CAN'T SEE HOW FAMOUS HE IS. ...then, sue his ass. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:37 AM There is now a fake Kat Coffey too http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=100000084256506 |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Jul 09 - 04:01 AM What I think Facebook want if possible is the address (the bit that comes up in the address bar usually at the top of the Explorer window - ie for this thread http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=121472&messages=854#2678762 ) of the offending message or identity. It is probable that falsely assuming the identity of another to assist the BNP is an actionable libel under English law - but you have to get hold of the identity of the identity thief to sue them. You may be able to do this under US "safe harbour" doctrine, which, as I understand it, provides for a common carrier to be exempt from libel liability so long as it identifies the poster of the libel. It's probably easier to do this under those provisions than the UK law as it stands after the "Motley Fool" libel cases. Heric may have more info on the US law here. If the identity thieves are using material in which you own the copyright you may be able to requir Facebook to take down the infringment by using a DIgital Millennium Copyright Act notice (US law, so again Heric maybe able to add information). I have listed some of the impersonators of which I know on the "Will the Real Richard Bridge Please Stand up" thread. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:51 AM They are shit. Not to worry. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:48 AM You're welcome. I hope it works. Using someone's name on the Internet is a criminal act-or at least should be. And when a person's name is used to promote an organization like BNP-it makes the identity theft so much worse. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:17 AM Thanks,Azizi. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:10 AM Lemme rephrase that. A URL is a website's address. That address starts with http://www. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:00 AM URL: "Abbreviation of Uniform Resource Locator, the global address of documents and other resources on the World Wide Web". In other words, the address of a website which starts with http://www For what it's worth, I don't know about Fcebook, but when writing a comment on other websites, in addition to asking for your tag name, and your email address, some ask for a "URL" and some ask for a "web address". On those websites, I've left the box for web adress blank and the comment is still accepted. That might work on Facebook. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 13 Jul 09 - 12:28 AM Thank you very much,Kat. I will try that but one address needsaURL. What's a URL? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM Exactly, tom. Makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy about fellow 'catters, eh? Bruce, I wandered around in the Help Centre and found this posted. It seemed to work. I've sent them a message and received an email confirmation that they had received it: http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php They do not make that very easy to find. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:27 PM They're just doing what Nazis do. They brought the big lie to us all and showed how effectively the big lie works. But, I grew up on the same kinda streets they did. Thank you for that, Jeddy, Kat and Richard. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:57 PM anyone who knows you guys will know that it is not you. i am worried about those people on FB who do not visit here. i do not want your good names tarnished by these idiots. you are all people i respect and will do anything i can to help. btw you are all boring old farts and i am a silly girl,it has been awhile since anyone called me a girl, so i am happy. anyway aren't all folkies boring? though it takes a special nutter to be a morris dancer, drinking and singing till late then getting up early and putting on those bells?????????? why? or should that be how???? sorry i went off on one didn't i? take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: curmudgeon Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:51 PM "Using my Mudcat member photo." This, I believe means that the miscreant is a Mudcat member as the photo section has limited access - Tom |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:48 PM Kat, I am trying to get an e-mail address for Facebook. They are BNP types and not very nice. When I do get an address to send info to I'll message you. Richard let me know about it, too. Thank you, Sir. I have never posted on Facebook (maybe once, but if so it was about two or three months back when I was trying to post a "Hello. I'm new to Facebook," but I don't think it took. I tried to have an account but I could never figure out exactly HOW to post so I think I didn't. Someone took the info, opened up in my name and is now playing games. I hope Facebook will help with this because I not only want those posts deleted--there are two or three attributed to me that I know nothing about--but I want the addresses of the people who did it, the info on them. And I think I will get it. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:38 PM Using my Mudcat member photo. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM Whomever it is has also sent some PMs on facebook, supposedly from me. Not so, folks. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:52 PM The fake Bruce's post has been modded off FaF - but here is the address of his profile, that will still enable you to report him http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=Bruce+Murdoch&init=q&sid=6711d6872a0eef074f9fb7981efc12d4#/profile.php?id=100000056924968&hiq=bruce%2Cmurdoch |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:28 AM Apparently the fake Bruce is using my name in vain, too, to claim I called someone a "fake." I have stayed out of these threads and had closed down my facebook acct. I will get back on there to post a similar message to this one. Thanks, Richard, for letting me know. It is despicable. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:42 AM Sometimes nice don't work. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:01 AM The word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'. George Orwell, What is Fascism?. 1944. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:53 AM I appreciate you pointing it out to me, Richard. I must have said something they don't like. Perhaps it was "Funk the British Nazi Party." |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:20 AM As an example of the BNP's use of "free speech", over on FaF they have created a fake identity under the name "Bruce Murdoch", and are using a picture of Bruce from the cover of his 1971 vinyl to go with it, and are using that ID and that picture to post messages favourable to the BNP - something that (we can see from his posts here) he would never ever do. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM "Freedom of Speech" in the US is often misunderstood. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater. There are certain basic legal limits in place. Freedom of Speech has to do more with the expression of ideas. Dissidence is an American tradition. I hope it doesn't become an endangered species. Inflammatory speech can be protected under certain circumstances but not if it leads to violence against a group of people. The KKK in this country can be reigned in for their rhetoric. The Nazi Party is not given the freedom to express their ideas openly in a parade if they advocate violence. We have courts of law to settle this question. Dissidence which promotes a violent response by law enforcement is a violation of the American tradition of Free Speech. Warrantless wiretapping is another infringement. It's important to make a distinction between Free Speech, (the right to express unpopular ideas) from using inflammatory language to promote violence against groups or individuals. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:13 PM Mea culpa. THat should say "with which comments" |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM The comments of "Roots" about estuarine English, with which I wholeheartedly agree, might well make it an inconvenient song in the East London and Essex constitutency of the BNP. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy Date: 10 Jul 09 - 12:11 PM i do believe we have these 'people' worried. i am proud to be a part of this. we haven't really done anything yet and they are running scared!!! yey !!!!!! take care all jade x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Date: 10 Jul 09 - 11:13 AM "Even though Show of Hands have disgraced themselves with their anti-BNP rhetoric, no "British" Asian or Black "British" could ever write a song such as "Roots." There ARE certain elements, and they know who they are, who have long considered this song to be a "right wing" rant. The same crowd, I might add, who consider Countrylife by Steve Knightley to be playing into the hands of The Country Alliance, where as Countrylife, infact, laments the loss of rural housing to the 'townie' set who have taken the houses and made them into holiday homes, empty most of the year. and no, much to surprise of Messers Knightley & Beer, Roots has not been adopted as a BNP anthem, it's that sort of rumour that hinders the real work at hand |
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