Songbook of Child Ballads?

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: GUEST,David Ruiz
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 04:44 PM

I find this entire topic boring. Who listens to Child ballads these days?

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:54 PM

I recently sold the 4 volumes of Bronson on an "if you have to ask the price you cannot afford it" basis - but I promise you all they went to a good home.

Generally speaking the volumes go for about £200/£250 each!! The final volume (four) often goes for a lot more because there were less printed.

For that reason my advice if you want a complete set of Child is to go for the Dover Edition which is already complete i.e all five volumes. The Loomis House version is excellent BUT so far there are only two volumes available and that has taken since January 2002, so it will be while before all five are published. I have no reason to believe it won't happen, just that it might take a while.

The alernative for any lottery winner is to purchase my complete original set of Child, Volumes 1-5 in ten parts, limited edition of 1,000 this is number 785. But you will need a lot of money!

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 11:51 AM

Hi, Art - I think it's better to wait and get the new edition from Loomis House Press - $24.95 per volume paperbound, and $34.95 cloth. Volumes 1 and 2 are available now. You can get them direct from Loomis House, or you can get them from Dick Greenhaus at CAMSCO, 800-548-3655. the Loomis House edition has tunes for many of the ballads, and the appendix has been incorporated into the primary text, so you can get information on songs without having to refer to two volumes.
I see they have some other old ballad classics coming out. I wish they could do Bronson.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 11:30 AM

The Dover reprint seems to be available again, at $24.95 per volume or $100 for the set: here.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:02 AM

The Bronson Offer is on hold for a while. I am still willing to do this, but I have put almost 5 reams of paper through the Cop Shop copy machine and I think it is time to stop for a while. Toner is expensive....I am starting a new thread about this also. If you have already PM'd me, you will get a copy now, even if you haven't sent me your address yet. I have all addresses except one.

If you want this, trace the new thread, and when I refresh it (not this one!) we can start another round, OK?

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM

I have the texts in a readable form. There are still some proofing mistakes - but I do have the texts. So does Joe.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:59 AM

At which point this 2-year-old thread comes full circle; that's Lesley's own site you've just pointed to.

John's mention of Distiller reminded me that I actually have that now, so I've had a go at some of the Concordance files.  They seem to convert to .pdf well enough, though only one of the two formatted text files will convert, and of course the bulk of the song texts are in the "raw text" file, so that isn't going to help people who want the song texts in a readable form.  However, it looks as if the concordance itself is potentially more useful than I had realised, at any rate to people who also have the books.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Finny
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:23 AM

Try www.childballads.com

Finny

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:47 AM

Clicky repair :-(

The curious and brave may look at GSView

Can I say "fat fingers made me do it?"

John

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:42 AM

As the fog clears and the sun comes up...

I should have mentioned in my rantings above that there is a pretty good "PostScript" file reader called GhostView or, for Windows, GSView, that has been around for quite a while. It would let you look at PostScript files, although you still need a PostScript capable printer to print them. There are some associated conversion programs; but I haven't really looked at them, since I have the printer.

I don't know whether you can still download the programs as trial/shareware, but I believe that was the case a while back. The problem with the shareware version is that the manual may be rather terse.
The program is good enought that I recently paid the $50 (US) to get the whole works on CD. Came from Australia on a slow tanker, but I'm glad I've got it.

Be advised that this was (I think) originally a Unix developed program, and like many similar programs, it tends to be DOSSY (A term that insults practically everybody, but just means that the people who wrote it are "command line oriented.") Setup can be a bit frustrating, mainly with respect to getting everything into the right directory/subdirectory locations. I have not found a PS based file yet that it won't open though. (This includes PDF files, which are PostScript based.)

The curious and brave may look at GSView

John

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:44 AM

Re: Abby Sale 21-Jul-01 - 09:45 AM above:

I don't know anything about the site being discussed, but note that if you can get a good postscript file, the "Adobe Acrobat Distiller" will usually convert it into the .pdf Acrobat file.

This is, unfortunately, a rather high $$ piece of software ($249 today to US users at www.adobe.com/store/products/acrobat.html), and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone run out and buy it. If you have it, or know someone who does, it would be worth trying for a few songs. Since most, but not all PostScript files convert, it would be advisable to have someone try it out on the files you're interested in before you even consider a buy.
If the tunes you are interested in can be converted this way, the free download "Acrobat Reader" can be used to look at the .pdf, print to almost any printer, etc.

Not to get anyone's hopes up, but if you have - or can get to - a fairly recent printer, especially of the laser variety, quite a few of them can print PostScript. I have run into a few people who had !PS capable printers and didn't know it. A couple of years ago, at a large multinational company, it took me over a year to convince my Network Administrator that there was a perfectly good !PS capable printer sitting 15 feet from my desk, and that all he needed to do was load the PostScript driver for me - or give me Admin priviledges so I could do it. Worked fine - once we got through the BS! to the !PS.

File this as incidental info.

John

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 09:34 PM

It's the four-volume set; Singing Tradition is the one-volume condensed version.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Gypsy
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 09:24 PM

Betcha that it is the same as The singing tradition

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: CET
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 07:37 AM

Sorcha, if you're still willing to do this, please put me on the list. However, if it's getting to the point where it's becoming a pain, just say no (to quote Nancy Reagan). This is above and beyond the call of duty. I'll PM you with details.

A book called "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads" by Bronson has been mentioned on the Mudcat. Is this different from the various titles that have been mentioned so far on this thread?

CET

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 12:10 AM

Not to worry, JohnB. The Bronson Offer is holding steady at 4 requests and 2 copies are finished. Perhaps I'll be able to finish tomorrow and get them all in the mail Monday.......

This is not at all difficult. The copy machine has a double side option and an auto document feeder. All I do is stick about 50 pages in the feeder and go back to my book. One entire copy takes about an hour.

Now, the FIRST copy from the paperback (glued, not sewn) was horrible. Took a couple weeks to get Copy 1.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Gypsy
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 11:09 PM

Sorcha, luv, much appreciate the offer. Got my copy made thru Books on Demand last year, when i felt that "I deserve this!" So have my beauteous hard bound copy. To all else, highly recommend comb binding that which Sorcha sends you. Handsome husband got me a comb binding machine, and have been busily making all music books lay FLAT on the stand. What a treat!

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 09:45 AM

Joe, I've had the Concordance link for some time. It's notes read that it probably shouldn't be d/l'ed yet as it has some errors. But as to viewer/printer, that's Postscript; unfortunately you have to have a Postscript printer. They're thinking of moving it to the more readily available Adome Acrobat. The data base you noted seems good but is a commercial one - you have to pay first or join their system.

I'd also reiterate my recommendation of the Sargent / Kittredge edition (1904/1932). It has Child A, plus B and or C (sometimes) plus Kittredge's fine intro, all Child's notes and a full glossary. (That glossary plus MacColl's (Goldstein's?) in the Riverside E&SPB was How I Learned to Speak Ballad Scots.) Inexplicably, it leaves out five ballads. Not because they're unusually sexy...don't see any reason. The book is readily available through the usual auction/used book places online & off at $10 to $25. I've used it nearly daily since I bought one new in 1959.

For sheet music ad/or tunes, as requested, there are several sources:

Digitrad, as obvious.

Lesley Nelson's Contemplator Folk Music Page (inc. Barry Taylor archive) click to the Child pages. http://www.contemplator.com/folk.html

Printed versions include many partial collections - Niles as above;

Alexander Keith's "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads and Ballad Airs" (1925) (All the Child ballads collected by Greig, which is the majority, I believe.) This is a fine & lovingly assembled collection from soon after Greig's death and done as a memorial to the great scholar. Like Greig, the book remained in obscurity & is extremely rare - but is superb & copyable at 316 pages.

The obscurity ends with the publication of my pride & joy (as owner, not contributor), "The Greig-Duncan folk song collection" / edited by Patrick Shuldham-Shaw and Emily B. Lyle, et al. It includes all of "Last Leaves" plus the full Duncan collection & is available new for a mere pittance (if your name is Bill Gates) thru Camsco. The final volume is rumored to be available in September.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM

The Concordance was never finished, and more than one coding system appears to have been used within it.  I dissected it at one point to see what was there, and it doesn't actually contain the full text; the notes and indices (which are essential) are missing, and I think none of the additional texts from Additions and Corrections are present; if I remember correctly, the notes on textual variations are also missing. It also seems not to have been fully proof-read, so once I managed to pick up a Dover set, I didn't look at it any further.  I could always try it with the software, I suppose...

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM

Ian C, Songs of Belfast edited by David Hammond, Published 1978, by Gilbert Dalton, Skerries, Co Dublin.--This is an excellent little book comprised mostly of North of Ireland childrens street songs. The book contains 60 songs, also mill workers songs and the well known "I`ll tell my ma" etc. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:29 AM

The Concordance- I downloaded the programs they said I needed, then tried. I downloaded the first section OK, then found out that I couldn't read it- no proper viewer. I may have missed something. I thought I had the viewer programs. But I need a tutor at my elbow where computers are concerned.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:12 AM

Has anybody tried the Child Concordance? Any comments?
I haven't had time. Busy love life, y'know...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 11:56 PM

Dicho, litterally ROFLMAO!! Thanks for making my day! I will PM you so that you can see how this works. When you get my message, click on the grey area that says "You have 1 Active Message". Then, click on the title of the message (should be in the center) to read the message. To PM me back, just hit the back button and click on my name. You should get a screen that has the blanks filled in with a RE RE whatever in the subject box........

I gather you want a copy of the Singing Traditon of the Child Ballads, by Bronson??

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 09:26 PM

I typed in her name and got some nonsense about area shape ?

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: JohnB
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 07:43 PM

I did my PM ing this PM. The Post for the Bail is no problem, I live on a 5 acre lot AND have a chainsaw. Dicho, the Pm thing is not hard, I managed it. You go into your personal page thingy bit. Scroll down to the mail part, click the part that says something about Personal messages. Then type in the name of the person you wish to PM, probably in this case "Sorcha". Hit the enter doo hicky, when it comes back click on the name, if you got that far you are ready to type the praises of the Goddess Sorcha. Take a # in the list, you got numer 5, lucky devil. What's that "now serving # 37" how many #'s are there ahead of me, SCREAAAAAMMM!. JohnB

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 06:25 PM

bronson books here: click. They are outrageously expensive.

Alex

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 06:11 PM

JohnInKansasWhileI'mRebuildingMyMachine

It might save some confusion to note that the actual title of the Child Ballads, from the Dover Edition, is

"The English and Scottish Popular Ballads,"
Edited by Francis James Child.

The Dover edition was first printed in 1965, and notes that the originals contained in the 5 Volumes were:
Volume 1 - Part I, 1882
Volume 1 - Part II, 1884
Volume 2 - Part III, 1885
Volume 2 - Part IV, 1886
Volume 3 - Part V, 1888
Volume 3 - Part VI, 1889
Volume 4 - Part VII, 1890
Volume 4 - Part VIII, 1892
Volume 5 - Part IX, 1894
Volume 5 - Part X, 1898

As noted above, tunes are given in the Child books for only a few of the Ballads.

John

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:40 PM

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might incriminate me, if you actually DO get arrested.

Alex

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:36 PM

Sorcha, how do I PM you (computer illiterate)? I will pay $20 plus costs, a small donation to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:02 PM

LOL, alex! On thy heads be it!! (If I get arrested for this, you guys are helping post bail, right?)

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:59 PM

The next version of the Digital Tradition will have at least one version of the lyrics to every Child ballad (I have 4 more to enter). We have at least one tune entered for 160 of the 305 ballads.

There are many ballad collections that contain a large proportion of Child ballads and several of them include tunes. Many if these are collections of songs collected in a particular area, ie Virginia (Davis, some tunes)

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM

Our binders be upon us and upon our children! Thanks so much for the copying and mailing!

Alex

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:52 PM

Gypsy,did you ever get the "Singing Tradition"? If not, I will put you on the list as #3.

You guys will be recieving UN PUNCHED pages as I don't know what you want to do with them. 3 hole, 5 hole, spiral bind at the Kinko's, etc. I am doing NOTHING except copying and mailing. You are on your own for binders.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:37 PM

Oh man, Ms Pirate, wish ida known that you would do that. Like, BEFORE i had my copy made! Everyone, this is a fabulous offer, take her up on it, before she changes mind.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:59 PM

I believe the John Jacob Niles book is still available. I was quite surprised to find a new version last year in the local bookstore. I have the original edition, and it is quite interesting to read Niles comments.

Ron

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: DaveJ
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:50 PM

Awhile back during a discussion of The Gypsy Laddie/Davy I posted this link.

I would think that someone could do a reprint on the complete five or six vol. Dover set (like Dover?) and make a profit at it. I had a chance to buy all of them at a local used-book store but I didn't like the $200.00 price tag. It makes a sorcha-ed copy sound pretty good.
DaveJ

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM

OK--a little more info for persons interested in Sorcha the Pirate

PM me your snail mail address.
Do NOT send money until I tell you what the Postage is.It varies with the address.
Do not expect an Instant Turnaround on this, it takes about 2 days to do one full copy. I am restricted to evenings and weekends at the copy machine.
Therefore, if I get several requests, they will be filled in order by date.
Make sense?

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM

OK I'm game, start the presses rumbling. Sorcha, will PM you when I get home. Thanks Thanks Thanks JohnB.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:14 PM

I am working from a sorcha-copy and transcribing the tunes into Noteworthy Composer. I'm through the variants of the first ten.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

"Singing Traditon of Child's Popular Ballads",soft cover, Princeton, 1976. (46 pg. Intro + Contents, 536 ppg text, 4 ppg index) is what I am offering. (WARNING--Pirated xerox copies!!) If you feel out of kilter about that, remember that it is out of print, and I would not do this if it were available.

$5.00USD to buy a ream of paper + plus shipping. No charge for the copying itsself or my time!! OK? Anybody wants to pay more than that, Mudcat can have it. This is NOT an auction--it is an OFFER!

---

Are you using my name in vain, Sorcha?
-Joe OFFER-

---

Note: Sorcha says she is no longer able to produce copies.
-Joe Offer, February, 2005-

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 10:58 AM

Save your money on The Ballad as Song/Bronson. I purchased it before having my Singing Tradition made up....it is a textbook, not really a tunebook. Unfortunately, the dealer that i got Ballad from was french, and i have absolutely no french. His english was adequate, but we did a near miss on what i wanted, and what he sold me. If you wanna know how ballads work, it is a great book. If you wanna play tunes, you want the Singing Tradition.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM

I have a personal copy of the paperback abridgement, (pirate xerox, don't tell).

Lesley, I would copy it for you if you like. I believe we have been in touch about this before.........??

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 06:39 AM

Hi

Can you post anything you find here if you think it might be useful. Thanks.

Ian

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:35 AM

I was doing a Google search (click) for "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads, and came up with lots of goodies. One that looks very interesting is a downloadable Concordance to the English and Scottish Popular Ballads.
There was also a full-text database of the Child Ballads at the University of Virginia (click), but I couldn't figure out how to get access to it. Dang.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 12:38 AM

OK Bert - can I buy it? Of course it would be something to have a version on each one - I thought several of the tunes to the ballads were lost...

I too have seen references to Bronson - I found "The Ballad As Song" Berkeley: U oc California, 1969 through bibliofind (don't know if I'll get it - haven't gotten confirmation from the store that they still have it - darn).

Haven't heard of the Niles book but I'll check it out. Sounds great.

The tunes in child vol 5 are certainly great historically, but not much musically - John Davis has sequenced a couple of arrangements based on them for me. I myself can't do anything with them. When I win the lottery I'm going to take music lessons - then in about 20 years I might have some skill (good thing the women in my family are long lived).

Actually someone from the UK sent me an e-mail wanting to sell a Dover edition of Child. (I bought a battered but really cool set of Jamieson from her). If anyone is interested e-mail me and I'll pass her name and e-mail on. I don't think she's found a buyer yet.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From:
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 12:22 AM

The Sargent (Child's daughter) and Kittredge edition (1904) of Child's work has one copy of each ballad, but no music.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 11:12 PM

No Joe, That's not the one. The title has something about "English & Scottish Ballads" It appears to be a selection from Child's collection with one version of each song.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:55 PM

The Dover reprints of the Child Ballads contained a couple of dozen airs (tunes) at the back of VOlume 5.

The Bronson is out of print. It came in two varieties: a paperback abridgement containing about 500+ pages of lyric variants and tunes, and the unabridged 4 volume hardback edition. Used bookstores or your library may have copies of the above. (You can perhaps borrow and photocopy a library's copy?). There is a long term plan afoot (according to Dick Greenhaus) to digitize all of Bronson and mount in on the web, quite possibly as a n adjunct to the Digital Tradition. Needless to say, this is going to take a pantload of work before it becomes a reality.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:41 PM

The Sharp and Niles books are quite frequently available at a reasonable from used-book stores like those at www.bookfinder.com. The Bronson book is very rare - if that's the one you got at Goodwill, Bert, I'm going to have a tantrum. Dover had a five-volume reissue of Child's original, complete work - that, too, is extremely rare. If that's the one Bert has, there may soon be a California-style burglary at the Bert household....
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: rich r
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:20 PM

Here are a couple references that may overlap what you already have. I don't know which Sharp you have but "One Hundred English Folksongs For Medium Voice" by Cecil Sharp (Dover 1975, originally 1916) has a number of Child ballads

"The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles" by J J Niles (Houghton Mifflin Company 1961) is made up entirely of deriviatives of Child ballads.

"The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads" by Bertrand H Bronson (Princeton University Press 1976). I have not seen this, only references to it.

rich r

Subject: RE: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:11 PM

I picked one up at Goodwill the other day. I don't have it in front of me. I'll take a look at it soon and let you know the title.

Bert.

Subject: Songbook of Child Ballads?
From: Lesley N.
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 10:02 PM

Anybody know of a collection of sheet music of Child Ballads? I've found several in Sharp and Boosey & Co. collections, etc. but I wondered if there was anything (in or out of print) that dealt with them specifically.