BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM

Don Firth, can I help with those figures you asked for?
Just specify please.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:29 AM

Don Firth, I think you want a comparison between MSMs and drug injectors (IDUs)
Total diagnoses for 2008
MSMs 1615
IDUs   91
Hope that helps.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM

""Don, you could not possibly believe I meant actually ZERO!""

Stop trying to spin your way out of the situation.

For about three quarters of this thread, you have been trying to beat several posters over the head with statistics.

You have consistently asserted that the only reason you have for participation, is to offset the false use of statistics. You have set yourself up as the true arbiter of fact, and a stickler for accuracy in all circumstances.

You said that "The new UK infections are within those communities."

You did not say "The majority of UK infections". You did not say "are mostly within". You did not say "with a few exceptions".

The inference I draw is that you intended to plant that erroneous idea yet again, in the hope that it would either be believed, or pass without comment, for future use.

You now ask us to believe you didnot lie.

THe alternative is that your passion for accuracy is variable, in inverse proportion to the support it lends to your point of view.

Oh! Hang on That's also lying.

So why are you here?.......To attach blame for HIV/AIDS to homosexual men, and Africans!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:35 AM

Don T , what would be the point of me trying to make anyone believe that not one heterosexual was catching AIDS?!
We have discussed endlessly the figures, always of a few hundred a year.
I would not even get that past you Don, would I!
No comment on the fact that Royston has been spinning, with your support, a false impression of a non existant heterosexual epidemic since he came on here then?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

If you are concerned about planting false ideas Don T, remember that there has been no increase in home acquired hetero infections, and that AIDS is among the rarest of diseases in the heterosexual community, and read this rubbish;

"In USA and Western Europe, that HIV is mostly a "gay thing" is now a footnote in history as the new UK infection rate by heterosexual transfer has been approaching and exceeding the homosexual transfer rate for a long time now - as at August 2009 the male/male new infections were only at 44% - source, UK Health Protection Agency.

Because "straight" people are in such denial about their risky behaviours they are less likely to get tested and treated and the prevailing view amongst health agencies is that the heterosexual figures are the tip of an enormous iceberg.

Add to that the well-documented tidal wave of heterosexually acquired STI's amongst straight teenagers in the UK, and the only statistical conclusion is that heterosexual communities are paying the greatest price for their loose morals and grotesque sexual hygiene."

Funny isn't it that Royston blames only hetero infection on loose morals and grotesque sexual hygiene!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:27 AM

""remember that there has been no increase in home acquired hetero infections""

Same lie again!

UK acquired infections among heterosexuals increased by 500%.

OFFICIAL FACT!

Irritating, I know, but indisputable.

More irritating by far, is your unbelievably naive faith that heterosexuals of African origin will never engage with anyone outside of their own group.

What do you think we are dealing with here, the Warsaw Ghetto?

Do you know how many of those Africans are out there, in social and work contact with British Born citizens. I worked for a charity caring for people with profound learning difficulties, and that charity would have collapsed if all the Kenyan, Ghanaian, and other African carers had left.

By all means pull the blankets over your head, and suck your thumb, while hoping it will all go away, but don't expect us to join you.


""The old infection could not spread among heterosexuals. Royston has provided evidence that the new strain is LESS virulent.""

So where do you suppose all the hetero victims of the 70s and 80s got it then? And how many cases went unreported because the victims died, as is normally the case, of pneumonia, and other similar causes, not of AIDS, and their condition was simply not noticed?

You should be thanking Royston, not slagging him off, for supplying you with FACTS about the lifestyle of young heteros in this country, because they are putting themselves at risk, in much larger numbers than are gay men.

The facts about other STDs confirm what he says, and HIV is an STD!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM

In that first post of his, Royston gave the Health Protection Agency as his source, but no link.
Looking at that source now I see this, which tells us that Royston was aware of the African dimension all along, but must have hoped to conceal it from the forum.

Men who have sex with men and black African heterosexuals remain the groups with the highest
HIV prevalence within the UK; efforts are needed to reinforce prevention messages and promote
regular HIV testing within these populations.

An estimated two-thirds (2,790/4,220) of new diagnoses acquired heterosexually were among
black Africans, of whom the majority (87%) acquired their infection abroad, mainly in sub-Saharan
Africa. In contrast, among the estimated 2,760 HIV-infected MSM diagnosed in 2008, 83% (2,280)
probably acquired their infection in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM

Don T, you do not need to worry about the influx of large numbers of infected and high risk immigarants.
The few hundred hetero infections in a single year are more than ample to start an epidemic if one were possible, never mind the thousands of heteros who must now have it.

It has been in the hetero population for decades, but has proved incapable of causing an epidemic as in the MSM and Black African communities.

And remember, the African strain is even less virulent.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

You just keep that head down there in the sand mate.

At least that way we'll know which orifice you are talking through.

I'm outa this.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

Help me out before you go Don.
Keeping my head in the sand means I am ignoring something significant.
What is it please?
We would all like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

Game set and match I believe....but not much glory Keith, given the quality of the opposition! :0)

No comment on the proposed aggressive testing and contact tracing amongst "at risk" groups I see.

Could be stormy weather ahead for our "liberal" friends.

Best send over a few loads of sand for them!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:06 PM

Okay, GfS, I've e-mailed Joe Offer the information he asked for:    Name of thread, date and time of the post, and the name of the person who allegedly posted it.

So we'll soon see whether you posted it, or if it was posted by someone else.

Okay?

Don F

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Don...Keith has been kind enough to post the information you requested.....anything to declare?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

.... given the quality of the opposition

And the beat goes on.........

I'll check back in... maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

""Don...Keith has been kind enough to post the information you requested.....anything to declare?""

None of your business my bigotted friend, but Keith already knows to what I refer. He just hasn't the guts to address it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

Joe, here is the address Don posted, as to the one in question. I'm posting it, because I don't trust him.

06 May 09 - 12:38 AM (Californians opposed Prop 8)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:49 AM

GfS, the question here is "Can YOU be trusted?" Are you or are you not the author of that post?

I sent the following e-mailed to Joe at 1:22 this afternoon, Pacific Standard Time. I have not heard back from him yet. And what I included was a copy-and-paste of the heading of the post in question:

Okay, Joe, here it is:

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:38 AM

Guest from Sanity swears he didn't post that message. Checking it out and verifying it one way or the other would clear up a lot of screaming and yelling, not to mention the veracity, or lack therof, of GfS. I suggested that to GfS, but he apparently didn't see fit to follow up on it.

Don Firth

If you don't trust me, then e-mail Joe yourself. His Mudcat e-mail address is:

[e-mail].

I, at least, want to get to the truth.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:24 AM

OK, so I gather the message in question was on this page posted at 12:38 AM on 6 May 2009. There are 74 messages from that group of IP numbers, and all (except a few no-name ones) were signed by Guest from Sanity. That's not absolute proof that the post came from GfS, but it's a good indication that it came from him or from somebody using his computer. At least part of the message appears to have been copy-pasted from another source, but I could not find the source and could not determine whether the statement about the father may have come from that source. Are you people really arguing about a message that was posted nine months ago?
-Joe Offer-

---

I got confused and posted this message in the "Californians" thread, and GfS responded to me there. I moved my message and the one from GfS over here. Sorry for the mistake.
Despite evidence to the contrary, I'd tend to believe whatever GfS says about the message in question. GfS has been here for quite some time, and I have seen no evidence of deception or manipulation in posts from GfS. You people know GfS better than I do - make your decision based on your own experience.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:10 AM

Thank you, Joe. As I posted earlier, a couple of posts ago, when asked about it, and why I didn't say anything, back then..I said, "Because the more you feed it, the more it grows'. I thought it was stupid. I wasn't the one who just brought it up! ..and I do resent his inference!

I didn't get the whole explanation, but it wasn't sent from here, by me, to my knowledge. There are only two of us using this computer, and it's silly or vindictive, and neither of us live there ....but, anything else you can find out..is OK with me!

Regards and Thank You,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:35 AM

Don: 'If you don't trust me, then e-mail Joe yourself. His Mudcat e-mail address is:

[e-mail].


GfS: I posted back to him, on the other thread. I have no problem being out front with it.

Don: "I, at least, want to get to the truth"

GfS: Well that's a first!...Usually you make up your own truths!(Based on the biases of the audience you play to...then piss every one off, twist words, then blame others!..for saying things, they never said, and interpreting other phrases, out to left field, that if people get emotionally hostile, you think they're on your side........regardless of the negative crap you feed them). I just don't know how much discrediting you do to yourself, until, the 'light' goes on, and you begin to wonder.."This is Houston, and we got a problem here with our facts". Perhaps, instead of resorting to bringing up this stupid, and false post..you might stick to the issue!
Maybe your bad rationalizations are running low on fuel....and Ebbie is pushing an empty car.

Waving,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:19 AM

Don T, your last post to Ake was all mixed up.
Ake was addressing Don F, not you.
Don F had asked him for some figures, which I provided.

Then you said "but Keith already knows to what I refer. He just hasn't the guts to address it."

I honestly have no idea what you are on about.
I doubt anyone else does.
Just tell me straight what it is and I promise to address it.

Some things you have not addressed Don T.
You are still pushing the "500% increase" !!
We now know that it was caused by the arrival of thousands of infected and high risk African immigrants.
There has been no change in the pattern of infection, indeed the problem is a lack of change in the newcomers.

You have also not addressed Royston's highly misleading posts about hetero infection and the fact that he must have known about the real cause of the rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:32 AM

Thank you, Joe, for your vote of confidence. Your instincts are indeed correct.
Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:38 AM

""We now know that it was caused by the arrival of thousands of infected and high risk African immigrants.""

NO! UK acquired means contracted in the UK, not brought in from outside.

There was a 500% increase in UK acquired infections.

And the issue you can't handle is the one concerning your ongoing attempts to blame gay men and Africans for HIV, combined with your lunatic belief that "if it hasn't happened yet, it never will". 65.5 million years ago the dinosaurs (had they been capable of rational thought) might have had the same notion.

With increasing contact between the African group and others, and an increase in the pool of carriers, you, and a lot of others will have to re-think that before long.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM

Yes Don T, there was a 500% increase in UK acquired hetero infection over those 8 years.
The increase of about 200 cases per year made the 500% increase.
Those 200 cases a year could all be accounted for by new infections among the Africans.

I explained all this at 7.54 AM on 8th Feb.
Royston conceded the point and dropped the "white" from his silly statement about "straight, white British" leading the increase.

It may not seem fair, but it is a fact.
AIDS is a very rare disease except among MSMs and Black Africans for whom it is a devastating epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

GfS, whether you actually wrote that or not is still up in the air.

From Joe:

That's not absolute proof that the post came from GfS, but it's a good indication that it came from him or from somebody using his computer [emphasis mine – DF].

So--Joe's research did solidly establish that it did not come from me! And that's what you've been trying to claim—that I posted the comment about your father, using your handle.

So, rather than continuing this stupid charade and your childish string of abuse, you owe me an apology.

But you can forget that. I recommend that you let the nurses take you back to The Home. They have some nice rooms there with padded walls where you can bang your head all you want without injuring yourself.

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

Have you people stopped addressing the issue?.....I haven't seen the white flag!

Everything you have been saying has been blown out of the water by Keith, and the WHO's comments on the proposed "aggressive" testing and contact tracing of "at risk groups, has proved my ideas on treatment will be proved to be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

Good grief. Shades of Sarah Palin- evidently all one has to do to WIN is to say you won. Ake says he has been proven correct, GfS says he has been vindicated by Joe...

Well, guess what. Neither one of you is reading correctly. Ake's position(s) are as nonsensical as ever, GfS, far from having been told that he is correct, has merely been told that the moderator is not aware of his using such tactics, while at the same time saying bluntly that it appears that the post in question virtually without a doubt came from G's computer.

GuestfS, do you sleep walk?

Don Firth has been here a good long time, long enough for us to know him and his views and his 'tactics'. I have not ever known him to knowingly lie, even when his patience with utter balderdash runs thin. I have no doubt but that polling Mudcat members would elicit the same information.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM

You are quite wrong Ebbie, What Joe actually said was that he did NOT believe Sanity had written the piece in question.

Would you like to qualify your opinion of my position, or is describing it as "nonesensical" the sum total of your contribution to this thread?

The reason I brought this up at all is that the opposition seem to have descended into simple abuse with no attempt to answer questions or defend their stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Ake,

Read this from Joe.

"There are 74 messages from that group of IP numbers, and all (except a few no-name ones) were signed by Guest from Sanity. That's not absolute proof that the post came from GfS, but it's a good indication that it came from him or from somebody using his computer."

So the post came from GfS's computer.


Then,


"Despite evidence to the contrary, I'd tend to believe whatever GfS says about the message in question."


Did you get that? "evidence to the contrary" ...


Joes faith is admirable, but as he says: "You people know GfS better than I do"


DUH!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:12 AM

This is my position..as stated before when I wrote this thread. When I go back over my posts, subsequent to this post, there IS a CONSISTENCY to this frame of mind. Only when I had to be 'misinterpreted', (by design), called names, and accused falsely, did I have to address the moron, in particular, who was INTENTIONALLY SPINNING lies...and false accusations.

Shortly after, came the other bogus post, in question...which i will not even address much more.
Certain people will believe what the WANT to, and create their own 'reality'...but who cares?

Now for all those who need a refresh, of what I was/am saying,and why...here it is!

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:28 AM

Thank you both for clarifying, "political rhetoric", because that's exactly what I meant, when I wrote it.
Just open your minds, just for a moment. I am not writing this in any contentious manner, but rather trying to give you something very salient, to consider. (A wise man hears all the matter, before he speaks)
As I've said MANY MANY times, especially during the primaries(you can go back and check), is that the right wing, and left wing are on the same bird! (I used an analogy of a boxer, in the ring, beating his opponent, with a right, another right, then a left, a left hook, then another right.)..What he is beating up, is US!!! Both the wings, and political parties these days are nutzo, do not represent the people, have everybody bickering over shit, that they TOLD you is important, while keeping us distracted from the major shit going down!
When I first started posting on this particular thread, I already knew what was going on with the homosexual agenda, verses the actual hurt, pain and resentments that not only bring on homosexuality, but how they, through this issue, are only evading confronting any honest help, or solution, to a situation that they have found themselves in, because they FEEL helpless to do anything about it!!
Now its become a political issue, which is comfortable, and far enough away from their inner needs, and their sense of being helped out of it, to have a normal life, being able to survive and reproduce,(as ALL living organisms on this ball spinning in space), and have to confidence to raise their own natural children, with the woman that bore them with him. Why??? Because their sensitivities,(needed ones, and gifted ones), were neglected, or perceived of being neglected, when they were young?..For the male homosexual, a needed, and not fulfilled place in his heart, from his father...so he resents his masculinity. Why??..Because a child, even you, either created or expected certain attentions, and love, security, and bonding as a given, to and from your parents. It is one's reality he lives in. When he is denied those things, or perceives he is being denied these things, he FEELS two things as a result. One, the realization that he is resented by his father, which leads him to feelings of worthlessness, to be loved by him, and hopelessness, that it will ever come from him. Two, resentment of his own masculinity, because he is like his dad, in that way, can't get the love and attention, gravitates, to the mother, resents the dad, and takes on unforgiveness to him, and learns more feminine traits to communicate closer to the mother..to be of interest to her!
In other words, the love inside them, towards their dad, he sees as ineffective!!
Listen to me,..open up...these two things are prominent, in virtually all homosexuals. The reverse for lesbians, except in cases of sexual abuse, and or, being with a man, who usually they feel ineffective with.
You have heard homosexuals say, "I FEEL like a woman trapped in a mans body(and vice versa)"...Ok?....Who gets trapped??!!?? VICTIMS!!!! Yes, VICTIMS..and who is victimizing them?........a combination, of neglect, and their sensitivities. That's how powerful it was! Ever notice some of the most brilliant artists, are homosexual??...Why? Sensitivities, and learning to speak to the other side of themselves, giving them sometimes a wider perspective!
I had originally thought of sharing a story with you, about a friend of mine, I mentioned in another post, I guy I knew, who was the most brilliant, composer, sound engineer, laser engineer, it think I had ever met, up to that point..and still heads and shoulders above many since. He taught me volumes about sound, and composing, that still is ahead of the pack. He finally opened up to me, when he finally felt no threat from me, or condemnation, but rather objective, caring, interest in him,, and his true inner needs. He and his father were distant, due to a long history of mutual bitterness, and disapproval. This guy was in the USMC Marine Band, had scholarships for music, and could play a variety of instruments..and WELL!
When we talked about sensitivities, I pointed out to him, that being sensitive was a huge quality, and being as he knew that, and we both acknowledged it, and he was gifted with it, I asked him, if instead of either resenting it, or hiding it, why not nurture it, in a child of his own, being as he knew so very well, how valuable, and powerful it was. Just hearing that, tears welled up in his eyes, and he admitted that he always wanted to do that, but didn't think he could because he had been Homosexual so long, that he lost touch with that ability, of what he really always wanted to do.
Not long after, he found his partner, Mark had come down with something he just could shake...and not too long after, Mark died of AIDS. Mark had the same issues with his dad, and in that, they found 'common ground'.
Deeply saddened, bordering on mourning, we talked more, and he opened up more. I asked him if his father had ever heard his incredible recordings. He was resolved to the thought, that his dad wouldn't like them, be interested in them, or him, and so his father never heard it.
Making a long post shorter, I'll skip the details of our conversations,(unless anyone is curious), and he took his recordings, and masters, up, and was going to get 're-acquainted with his dad, in Sacramento...possibly with the hopes of reconciling with him. Turns out, he stayed up there with him for better part of a year....and then died from AIDS, with his father, taking care of him, to the end.
So Dale, (the guy), you told me, that you wish you could have known before, and sooner...so where ever you are out there,..I'm honoring your wish..to all the other 'Dales' out there. I told you I would have, if I would have know sooner too!
Now, dying of AIDS was not the issue, I was trying to underscore. He could have died, for any reason....The thing is, my children's generation, is also denied of that genius and that gene pool is forever lost...NEEDLESSLY!!!!!! THOUGHTLESSLY!!!
What I just related to you, is the absolute truth....and to all those who give me crap, about being a 'bigot' or 'hating' homosexuals,..well frankly, you can go fuck yourselves in you little pea brain. You don't know shit, as your posts so vividly illustrate...OR..you really can, consider another side.
Thank you.
GfS

Spin it all you want..I don't care!
...and as far as 'owing you an apology' Don......Don't flatter yourself!...Shove it!

Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM

What GfS, Akeneaton and myself have all had in common here, is that we have all been told, not that we were wrong which you can reasonably expect in debate, but that we were liars and bigots.
Even though we told no lies and spoke no bigotry.

Royston's belief that the pattern of infection was changing and new groups were now at risk proved wrong.
No shame in that but it would be unforgiveable if, as seems likely, he knew it was false but pushed the lie because it suited his twisted ideology, while calling me "liar."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM

Keith, You are absolutely correct!..Meanwhile, it is those folks, of whom you speak, that have posted some of the most outrageous lies and disinformation....and did it, while they KNEW they were lying!!!

The rest is just name calling.....and as the old saying goes, 'You know when the debate is lost, when the loser resorts to name calling!'

All the best, Keith!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

The Three Wise Monkeys.

As far as I can recall, originally One blind, One deaf, and One dumb.

In this instance all three blind and deaf, and one could heartily wish that all were dumb as well.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM

I will not waste my time re-reading GfS's screed just above because it is copy-and-paste from a previous post of his. It was psychobabble then and it has not improved with time. It's still psychobabble.

This whole discussion here on Mudcat started on another thread having to do with California rescinding the same-sex marriage law, despite the fact that such laws are being passed in one state after another and will continue to be passed at an accelerating rate. The proposition in California was not put forth by Californians, but by out-of-state fundamentalist religious groups, who consider homosexuality to be a sin.

This is a direct violation of the doctrine of separation of church and state as set forth in both the United States Constitution and the Constitution of the State of California. Whether it was voted in by a narrow majority of California voters or not is irrelevant. It is still un-Constitutional.

Nevertheless, this thread brought several people out of the woodwork to express a spectrum of anti-homosexual sentiments, not based on any legal or constitutional positions, but upon their own prejudices. When challenged, they tried to support their positions by citing various studies of dubious scientific validity and by inundating the thread with carefully selected and edited statistics.

The thesis of one of the more prominent opponents of same-sex relationships, tried to claim that homosexuals, homosexual men in particular, are not just plague carriers, but plague creators, invoking the medieval notion that HIV/AIDs is created by male homosexual activity, not just that the virus can be transmitted that way, if and only if one of the two is already infected. This "spontaneous generation" idea was debunked by many of the more enlightened scientists early on, and definitely put to rest by Louis Pasteur in the mid-1800s. Nevertheless, this person continued (and continues) to assert the same medieval nonsense.

The other more prominent opponent of same-sex relationships involved the claim that same-sex orientation comes as a result of early psychological problems and, in the end, is simply a matter of the individual's choice. And that same-sex orientation can be cured through counseling, when, in fact, if such deeply rooted psychological problems were the source of same-sex orientation, they would require, at the very least, extensive psychotherapy, not just "counseling."

This person cites the work of people such as Richard Cohen, a self-proclaimed "ex-gay" who "counsels" his clients by lying on a sofa with them, caressing them, and assuring them that they are loved. A book that Cohen wrote to this effect has been used by an American fundamentalist religious group to support the Ugandan anti-homosexual laws, going to far as capital punishment for homosexuals.

This person, when confronted by the studies refuting the so-called "cures" claimed in a study by Robert Spitzer, merely ignored the data presented, reiterated their claim that same-sex orientation is merely a matter of personal choice, and became personally abusive toward me.

He becomes especially abusive when I, or anyone else, quote or post links to sites that indicate that same-sex orientation is not a matter of choice, but there are strong indications that it has a genetic component. Same-sex orientation tends to run in families, appearing even when the relatives have no contact with each other, and there is some indication that the gene or combination of genes is carried by the females of a particular line and results in the mis-timing of the release of specific hormones in utero to a developing male fetus.

Granted, the specific gene of combination of genes have not been isolated yet, but research continues, and geneticists are confident that it is only a matter of time.

Rather that being willing to admit that the possibility (probability according to geneticists involved in the research, since all other factors are present), this person categorically denies that such a gene exists or will ever be found.

Both of these people attribute those who are not strenuously opposed to legally recognized civil partnerships or gay marriage as slaves of the "liberal agenda." And are, indeed, "liberal fascists!" Thereby demonstrating that they have no idea of what "liberal" or "fascist" really means.

This is a civil rights issue, pure and simple. No matter who complicated the opponents try to make it sound.

Recently, one of these people in particular, one who has been especially free with the childish personal insults (such mature epithets as calling me an "asshole") has chosen to attack me with accusations of lying about him—when I quoted something that was posted under his own "handle"—which he now denies having posted, going so far as to claim that it was me who authored it and posted it under his name. But Joe Offer has confirmed that it came from his computer, not mine. (Now, how could I have managed that, I wonder? Bloody clever of me!!).

I suggest that anyone interested (and who has their gag reflex well under control) merely read some of the posts for themselves and make up their own minds as to who it is who is actually posting the "outrageous lies and disinformation" and doing the "name calling."

Crystal clear.

By the way, I have not followed the wrangle between Keith and Royston because after being inundated with carefully selected and skewed statistics by Ake, and trying to follow them, I simply don't have the stomach to go through the same song and dance routine yet again!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

Keith,

Not true I'm afraid.

Ake's posting history is a catalogue of biggotted assertions against Moslems, Immigrants, Gypsies and homosexuals.


On the subject of the latter, Which aspecct of his assertions that homosexuals are a "scourge", or that they have a natural propensity to abuse children do you find not to be bigotted or not to be a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM

Oh! Is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:02 PM

Yup!

Just read the posts!! It's all right there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:33 PM

You'll love this!

Don: "I will not waste my time re-reading GfS's screed just above because it is copy-and-paste from a previous post of his...."

GfS:And because you are a brain locked ideologue who might learn something from ANOTHER point of view..other than your quasi-pseudo 'concern' about your misinterpretation of 'civil rights'

Don: "This whole discussion here on Mudcat started on another thread having to do with California rescinding the same-sex marriage law, despite the fact that such laws are being passed in one state after another and will continue to be passed at an accelerating rate. The proposition in California was not put forth by Californians, but by out-of-state fundamentalist religious groups, who consider homosexuality to be a sin."

GfS: "Wishful thinking..regardless of the FACTS! The people of California voted it down because they don't agree with it..PERIOD!"

Don: "This is a direct violation of the doctrine of separation of church and state as set forth in both the United States Constitution and the Constitution of the State of California. Whether it was voted in by a narrow majority of California voters or not is irrelevant. It is still un-Constitutional."

Constitutional??? Since when did you give a flying fuck about the Constitution???!!!?? You must be not watching the news about what this (along with others) administration is doing to our Constitutional precess. The only thing you know about the Constitution is 'freedom of speech'..because it allows you to run your mouth, about things you know NOTHING about!"


Don; "Nevertheless, this thread brought several people out of the woodwork to express a spectrum of anti-homosexual sentiments, not based on any legal or constitutional positions, but upon their own prejudices. When challenged, they tried to support their positions by citing various studies of dubious scientific validity and by inundating the thread with carefully selected and edited statistics."

GfS: "ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!! Every one of YOUR plastic fantasy land, 'arguments' have been blown away...and you just can't get over it...like some child, whose mother took his thumb out of his mouth.
Anti-homosexual???? YOUR the one who is denying them of their rights(if you had your way), of getting counseling SHOULD THEY WANT IT, because you want to 'define' them into a category, that denies the reality of their situation!...and you THINK you're a 'champion' of civil rights????? Your a deluded village idiot!

The thesis of one of the more prominent opponents of same-sex relationships, tried to claim that homosexuals, homosexual men in particular, are not just plague carriers, but plague creators, invoking the medieval notion that HIV/AIDs is created by male homosexual activity, not just that the virus can be transmitted that way, if and only if one of the two is already infected. This "spontaneous generation" idea was debunked by many of the more enlightened scientists early on, and definitely put to rest by Louis Pasteur in the mid-1800s. Nevertheless, this person continued (and continues) to assert the same medieval nonsense.

GfS :"Medieval??"...rolls eyes. Methinks he's really grasping at straws!

Don: "The other more prominent opponent of same-sex relationships involved the claim that same-sex orientation comes as a result of early psychological problems and, in the end, is simply a matter of the individual's choice. And that same-sex orientation can be cured through counseling, when, in fact, if such deeply rooted psychological problems were the source of same-sex orientation, they would require, at the very least, extensive psychotherapy, not just "counseling."

GfS: "Only a downright idiot would interpret what I've been saying, and the truth about what I've said, as how you convoluted that priceless gem of biased crap!...YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T GET IT! I Think you've blinded yourself, by poking yourself in your 'I'..and what you heard some political activist told you, that SOUNDED sophisticated and 'hip'"

Don "This person cites the work of people such as Richard Cohen, a self-proclaimed "ex-gay" who "counsels" his clients by lying on a sofa with them, caressing them, and assuring them that they are loved. A book that Cohen wrote to this effect has been used by an American fundamentalist religious group to support the Ugandan anti-homosexual laws, going to far as capital punishment for homosexuals."

GfS: " Again, nonsense! I only posted about Dr. Cohen, as an example of an ex-'gay', going straight. In those post(s), I also said I didn't agree with his methods...but do you think our wise bullshitter, comprehended what he was reading???? N-O-O-O-O-O!...He just blabs on, like like a precocious little 'mommies little helper'..ignoring any thought from anyone else. Methinks he just skims the posts from those, who he disagrees with..just looking for a line, or phrase, which he can expound his moronic blather...and ignores the rest. How else could one explain such scrambled lameness?? How else can he rationalize away, that it is he, who is discriminating against homosexuals..by his sheer naivete??..then starts accusing others who happen to know more on the subject than he does??..WHAT An ASS!!"

Don; "This person, when confronted by the studies refuting the so-called "cures" claimed in a study by Robert Spitzer, merely ignored the data presented, reiterated their claim that same-sex orientation is merely a matter of personal choice, and became personally abusive toward me."

GfS: "The key word here that Don the moRON, uses is 'merely'. I have never alluded to that...so he must be talking about someone else....like one of the voices in his head!

Don: "He becomes especially abusive when I, or anyone else, quote or post links to sites that indicate that same-sex orientation is not a matter of choice,...

GfS:...Even if those same links conclude that all the other possibilites explored have been ruled out.."

Don: "...but there are strong INDICATIONS that it has a genetic component. Same-sex orientation TENDS to run in families, appearing even when the relatives have no contact with each other, and there is SOME INDICATION that the gene or combination of genes is carried by the females of a particular line and results in the mis-timing of the release of specific hormones in utero to a developing male fetus."

GfS: "(The caps I inserted, from his original text).....So, you think its an established FACT, yet??....or tends to be an indication????

Don: "Granted, the specific gene of combination of genes have not been isolated yet,..."

GfS: " .....NO SHIT, SHERLOCK!!!"

Don: ".....but research continues, and geneticists are confident that it is only a matter of time."

GfS: "..as long as there is grant money for a wild goose chase, they'll ride as long as they can. Maybe they can find another 'indication'......extend the grant and it might make it up to a 'tends'. Meanwhile, they'll issue a report, and let the moron activists make meringue out of diarrhea.
Even the post, YOU posted, by a homosexual researcher, couldn't find support for any of the popular 'theories'!...That don't matter....just keep headin' on!

Don: "Rather that being willing to admit that the possibility (probability according to geneticists involved in the research, since all other factors are present), this person categorically denies that such a gene exists or will ever be found."

GfS: "The 'researchers'(?) should try, as I posted, looking at the development of receptors, during pregnancy, and factors that could influence their development.......oh oh...Don can't wrap his brain around that concept...I must be a bigot, then...(at least he can spell that word)!

Don: "Both of these people attribute those who are not strenuously opposed to legally recognized civil partnerships or gay marriage..."

GfS: "False again. Civil partnerships is one thing marriage is another. So he combines them, for the spin..blah blah blah"

Don; "...as slaves of the "liberal agenda." And are, indeed, "liberal fascists!" Thereby demonstrating that they have no idea of what "liberal" or "fascist" really means."

GfS; "The rest of that sentence is so stupid, why comment on it..it's self explanatory, that you haven't got a clue!"

Don: "This is a civil rights issue, pure and simple. No matter who complicated the opponents try to make it sound."

GfS: "Yeah, not a medical, psychological, emotional, spiritual issue...just a civil rights issue...because you're a one trick pony..and have a one track mind. Therein lies your narrow mindedness!..but you can't see that, either!

Don: "Recently, one of these people in particular, one who has been especially free with the childish personal insults (such mature epithets as calling me an "asshole") has chosen to attack me with accusations of lying about him—when I quoted something that was posted under his own "handle"—which he now denies having posted, going so far as to claim that it was me who authored it and posted it under his name. But Joe Offer has confirmed that it came from his computer, not mine. (Now, how could I have managed that, I wonder? Bloody clever of me!!)."

GfS: hey, I call them as I see them! Now you want to make an issue, not addressing the topic, but of a post that I did not post..and Joe said he wasn't all the way sure.....but you'll run with it....just like your 'tends' and 'indications' and 'some'....and anyone could have put my 'handle' in....blah blah blah."

Don: "I suggest that anyone interested (and who has their gag reflex well under control) merely read some of the posts for themselves and make up their own minds as to who it is who is actually posting the "outrageous lies and disinformation" and doing the "name calling."

GfS: "Yeah, and you'll see the difference between wit, satire, and political insanity, taken to the absurd!"



Don: "Crystal clear."

GfS: "Yup!"

Don: "By the way, I have not followed the wrangle between Keith and Royston because after being inundated with carefully selected and skewed statistics by Ake, and trying to follow them, I simply don't have the stomach to go through the same song and dance routine yet again!"

GfS: "...and because he's obsessed with locking horns with anyone who isn't impressed with his self image, and other accompanying bullshit!'

Don Firth
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:16 AM

GfS: "Anti-homosexual???? YOUR the one who is denying them of their rights(if you had your way), of getting counseling SHOULD THEY WANT IT, because you want to 'define' them into a category, that denies the reality of their situation!...and you THINK you're a 'champion' of civil rights????? Your a deluded village idiot!"

How in the world did you get the idea that any one of us - saying that we wanted to - would wish to deprive anyone of therapy that they want to have? And just how would we go about denying them such a right?


GfS: "Yeah, and you'll see the difference between wit, satire, and political insanity, taken to the absurd!"

Guest from Sanity, you may not be aware of it but you are impressing no one. I'd lay money on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 01:30 AM

Oh, here she is!..the driving force behind Don's nonsensical cheerleaders!

Ebbie: "How in the world did you get the idea that any one of us - saying that we wanted to - would wish to deprive anyone of therapy that they want to have? And just how would we go about denying them such a right?"

GfS: "Finally you asked! By the absurdity that it is a genetic defect, if you will, and equating it to race, creed, color, and giving it the status of equality, as such, under civil rights, if a homosexual seeks to not be homosexual, for whatever reason, and people have posted of those who did just that, you deny them counsel...because you say that they can not switch from homo to hetero sexual...which is in complete error! What would they counsel for..if it doesn't exist?? How would that be covered under Obama's(or any) health care bill????? Would you want to deny them the 'pursuit of happiness'?.....or deny them the opportunity to have and raise their OWN from them, (genetic) family???...because of some stupid political position?????????? You want a political posture to allow what people can, and can't WANT??

Ummm, ....any lights going on?

Ebbie: "Guest from Sanity, you may not be aware of it but you are impressing no one. I'd lay money on it."

GfS: "Ahhh yes, 'to lay'.....object of the proposition.(wink)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:57 AM

Don T, we have been on opposite sides throughout, but you have risen above that.
You have recognised that, like the famous monkeys, I have shown wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
You are a fair man.
From your interest, AIDS is clearly an important matter for you.
I expect that you are grateful that I have uncovered some erroneous statements that would have left you operating under serious misconceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:02 AM

Don Firth, I have not agreed with all of Ake's posts, but I have not spotted any slanted statistics from him. Unless you can direct me to some, I will say that you are wrong about that.

Royston has certainly provided skewed statistics, starting with his first Jan 10th post and continuing with his "5 fold increase" posts.
They appeared to show a change in the pattern of infection, but the change was really due to the arrival of thousands of infected and high risk people from sub Saharan Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:06 AM

Lox, if I referred to cystic fibrosis as a scourge, it would not mean I was bigotted in my attitude to anyone.
That is not to imply that homosexuality is a disease, just a condition that you are born with.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM

GfS, just because you don't know the distinctions between lay and lie, don't assume that others also do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

Ebbie, you missed the pun. try re-reading it slowly, and don't assume you know what it is before hand.
GfS.

P.S. Is that ALL you got from the post???? I mean you missed that one, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:06 PM

I don't think I need to answer GfS's little tirade (running in circles, frothing at the mouth, and peeing his pants), do you?

I'd say it speaks volumes--not about me, but about GfS.

Just read what I wrote, read what he wrote, and make up your own ninds.

I wonder how he can manage to get around with all those bullet holes in his feet.

(Okay, back to the real world.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

I'm not a statistician, Keith, but a friend of mine is (he works for the census bureau and deals with statistics all the time) took a look at some of Ake's posts. He commented that the way Ake interpreted some of the statistics was like—and I stole his phrase and posted it on the Prop 8 thread—claiming that all those with prostate cancer are male.

As they say:    "Well, DUH!!!"

It may sound impressive and learnèd, but it's not statistically significant. It ignores the bigger picture and tells you nothing beyond what is self-evident.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:16 PM

Don, if the statistics are insignificant, why are the WHO contemplating an agressive testing and contact tracing programme for homosexuals, IDU's, and "sex workers"?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

I'm only coming back on here to respond to something new.

Ake, I'm not having a go at you.

I can't find any indication of WHO policy being as you suggest, I have searched extensively. Where did you get that information from? Contact tracing happens all the time in all countries as a part of diagnosis counseling, but "aggressive" and "aggressive testing", I don't understand what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

GfS, I didn't miss the pun- I gave it a little smile of recognition then went on to the pertinent point. You see, that is part of your problem- you would love to think of yourself as superior in some way. You know what a police officer once told his audience in a seminar on the criminal mind? He said that the one constant of the criminal is that he thinks he is smarter.

Not that I'm making any implications. :)