Is traditional song finished?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:53 AM

I'd still like to know how MacColl is more acceptable than a load of other idiomatic, folk-lite material. And exactly where JC draws the line.
Meantime I've been trying to discover the ultimate version of Santy Anno (Santiano) one of my favourite songs and one I hope Jim would approve of. Odetta's must be it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V26i_cHlpgA&feature=related. Unless someone knows better?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

Hey, did I just get the 500 there? Not that I give a feck about it, but nyah nyah na nyah nyah, anyway.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:57 AM

"The disagreement isn't just about Jim's method, it's also about how far this process has gone - and, to a lesser extent, how much of a problem it is."

Jim's entitled to his opinion, and I respect his efforts with traditional music! But as a 'younger' person (I say that as a thirtysumthing with some reserve) I KNOW in full flashing neon capitals style, that the 'folk' word is a dreadful barrier for anyone of my generation or younger, who doesn't know what traditional music and song is.

I KNOW that the word 'folk' will alienate anyone who isn't especially interested in 'acoustic guitar' type music. Because it alienated me for decades! And precisely ZERO of my peers know traditional song is a part of 'folk' music. This is why I preference 'traditional' as it cuts cleanly through that barrier and consequently people I speak to want to know more about it.

Focus on sharing the music, the word 'folk' can be buggered.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,tom just popping his head in the window
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:59 AM

Pip - will you email me?

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM

Ooops.. That sounded way more stroppy than was intended Pip! Sorry about that! Not aimed at you or anyone.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM

Would traditional music survive if it was never sung in clubs at all? The answer is surely "yes" - it's been collected and documented as far as it can be now, and much of it has been recorded. It won't die for those reasons - but whether people will sing it or not, or play it or not, will depend on whim, fancy, fashion, vogue.

I've been working my way through a recently-acquired s/h copy of the Northumbrian Pipers' Second Tune Book (1981) during the last day or two. It's a wonderful collection but - d'ye know - if I had to black out all the ones by known composers, I'd lose half the material. And what wonderful material! Here's a tiny sample:

The Carrick Hornpipe (Billy Pigg)
Gateshead Stadium (Forster Charlton)
The Road To Jack's (Richard Butler)
Elsey's Waltz (Archie Dagg)
The South Shore (James Hill)
The Biddlestone Hornpipe (Billy Pigg)
Rowantree Hill (Jack Armstrong)

and many, many others - all "second movement", as you might say, and nearly all composed within the last 80 years or so. How could we not play these because they're not "traditional"?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM

I could probably confess to the odd occassion on which I've sat through a long succession of performances of non-traditional material and muttered in curmudgeonly fashion, "it would be nice to hear some bloody folk music for a change", but generally I simply avoid the term as a useful descriptor.

If I were attending a conference on folklore or balladry, I'm sure that everyone in the room would share the older, narrower definition of 'folk'. For the rest of the world (and believe me, Tom B is not making it up), that train has left the station.

Thanks, Brian, for that outbreak of common sense. Been there, done that (first paragraph) and reluctantly agree (second graf).

I'd still like to know how MacColl is more acceptable than a load of other idiomatic, folk-lite material.

The thing that gets me about an awful lot of 'revival original' material (McTell, Harvey Andrews, the Corries, that class of thing) is how dated it now sounds. It's similar to the way that the first few Steeleye albums sound less dated than those of the Mike Batt period. Trad songs aren't so much timeless as pre-dated - they don't get any older. That's the effect people writing 'in the tradition' are shooting for. Hardly anyone hits it. Some of MacColl's songs, to my ear, bring it off - although of course I've only got my own contemporary perception of what does and doesn't sound dated to go on.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:22 AM

"Some of MacColl's songs, to my ear, bring it off"

Not to mine, at least as folk music though he wrote some decent pop tunes I admit. MacColl's stuff sounds more of an accompaniment to the 1950s Angry Young Man cycle, Osborne, Braine, Sillitoe but then so much of the revival original material does.
I agree with what you say about traditional music being pre-dated WR, but that sets off alarm bells that what we're really talking about is aesthetic choices retrospectively wrapped in theoretical trim until the ribbons and bows - the sound, the ambience, the aesthetic - are what really attract people after they've forgotten the music of the people inside.

Modern sensibilities can't really write about Men O'War or Hard Times on the Farm without tongues well into their cheek, so I fear SO'Ps 'wrung what yer brung' may well be what folk music really is when you get beyond the period detailing.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:44 AM

Hi Will old fruit.
I think there is a real difference between singers and musos.
Musos tend to be a more forgiving bunch by and large. (apart from the obvious Irish v The Rest of the World bun fight that pops up from time to time)
We don't really seem to mind much if we know the author of a particular tune. If it's a good tune we'll play it anyway. Jonah Lewies "Don't stop the Cavalry" is a case in point. Daarn Saarf, we hear it all the time.
And I've never heard anyone complain that someone is playing a fiddle tune on a melodeon (pick any other two instruments to taste).The reaction is more usually, "Oh, I'd never thought of playing that tune like that, how interesting"
Must be something in a musos DNA.
Or maybe it's just that we are more open to experimentation. Thinking about it, I can't name one tune that has the stamp of a particular musician stuck on it's forehead..
Tunes are open season for everyone to have their own take on it.
If I was to name the musos equivalent of "Athenry", it would have to be "Speed the Plough". But, even then, it's still quite fun to play (just not too often)
Maybe it's the fact that without words, tunes don't come with emotional baggage. Although I've known tunes that move me to tears.
Just a viewpoint from the larynxlly? challenged section of the "F" world!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:59 AM

Jim:

"try singing a traditional ballad, or performing a piece of chamber music at a pop venue (which, it appears to me, many folk clubs have metamorphosed into) - and then get ready to run for the door"

Not always the case - I refer you to my post of 10 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM

Pete.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM

"I hope I'm not going to lose your respect over a mere difference of opinion, Jim."
Sorry Brian and others, - written in a head-in-hands moment last night - all gone now - meant to apologise for it.
"Men O'War or Hard Times on the Farm"
Do people still write such stuff? MacColl certainly didn't.
Apart from his political material, much of which was never meant to survive beyond the circumstances that gave rise to it, many of his compositions still resonate - for me anyway.
Tenant Farmer, Lag's Song, Kilroy, Freeborn Man (or any of the Travellers songs), Shoals of Herring (still going strong forty years after the herring disappeared from the North Sea), Driver's Song, Come Me Little Son, Rambler From Clare, Shellback, Joy of Living, Farewell To Ireland, My Old Man, Sharpeville, Ballad of the Carpenter, Sweet Thames.... (where do you stop?)   
By the way Brian - yes; I do accept Tawney, McGinn... and others - all mentioned here somewhere. Not sure you mean by 'into the canon'; if you mean do I think they're folk songs, no I don't, but I'm delighted to hear any of them sung, wherever.
Jim Carroll

PS Re MacColl's songs. A Traveller family has settled in the town here (much to the chagrín of some of the natives) and a number of the children have taken to popping into our local in the evening and giving a few songs in return for pennies.
Last week we were treated to a beautifully sung version of 'Freeborn Man' from a eight-year-old lad followed by an equally well sung 'Come Me Little Son' from his slightly older sister.
A busker in our market town, Ennis, can be heard regularly giving voice to Peggy's 'Lifeboat Mona' - may not work for everybody but obviously does for some - chacun son goût I suppose.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM

Pete - sorry, cross-posted.
I was speaking in general terms.
Years ago at a conference (syposium given for MacColl on his 70th I think) a Scots academic proposed that we tore down the musical barriers and opened our doors to anybody who might want to perform at our clubs - her problem was she was talking about us tearing down our barriers - she didn't take too kindly to the idea of someone turning up to her local 'Songs From The Shows' gathering and giving them a blast of Chevy Chase (not the actor) - she thought it impractical!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM

I think there is a real difference between singers and musos.

Couldn't agree more, Ralphie! (and not so much of the Fruit...).

There are few political, historical, social or class associations with most tunes - though I don't suppose I'd care to play the tune to "Deutschland Uber Alles" at a session - perhaps...

Mind you, I have an atheistic but sneaking liking for many of the tunes in "Hymns Ancient And Modern". "Saint Clement" ("The Day Thou Gavest Lord Is Ended), "Melita" (For Those In Peril On The Sea") and "Bethany" ("Nearer My God To Thee") are all very playable at a session, given enough drink.

I remember with affection some very drunken evening, after-work sing-songs up at Aly-Paly in the late 60s, with Colin Bowles (ex-Temperance Seven) playing these things on the BBC Club piano...

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie - PM
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:44 AM

Hi ralphie

I think you are right. But I think it applies to most performers, including singers.

I have found that most musicians are usually very respectful for other styles. They are also keen to join in where they can and they help each other along.

In my own experience it is usually the non-participants that are picky about history and traditions.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,A sheepish and unhappy Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM

I know I shouldn't have looked. I tried, I really did, but I did take a little sideways peep and this was written on my screen.

"By the way Brian - yes; I do accept Tawney, McGinn... and others - all mentioned here somewhere. Not sure you mean by 'into the canon'; if you mean do I think they're folk songs, no I don't, but I'm delighted to hear any of them sung, wherever."

I lordy lordy lordy - that changes everything.

Jim I capitulate. I realise I have been wrong all along, and I understand your position now.

My diagram is no good to you because you can't put MacColl, Tawney, and McGinn into that smaller circle. They are not Trad.

But you are happy to hear them 'wherever,' including in a Folk Club.

So, therefore, we need a THIRD circle, yes?

In the middle is everything defined by the 54, including all the songs mentioned in that shelf-full of books you have there. Yes? This is called FOLK.

And then we need a slightly bigger circle which is labelled NOT FOLK (but Jim likes it and thinks it's folky so it's ok to do it in a Folk Club).

Outside that is my original large circle, labelled NOT FOLK (and anyone who tries to do it, or who permits it, in a Folk Club is a fraud and a cheat and is responsible for an intolerable assault on Proper Folk Music).

Is that right?

You've not been rejecting the 'invasion' of new material into the INNER circle, of course you haven't, (you know as well as me that Revival material cannot go into the inner circle).

You have been fighting stuff you don't like out of the MIDDLE 'Jim Carroll' circle. And because you are a bona fide Collector you ARE right to do this, and any offence you may cause in the process, and any negative impacts you create on the folk scene, are entirely justified.

I have been wrong all along.

You are correct that my music doesn't belong in folk clubs. Not because it isn't fully informed by the tradition, in a strongly traditional style (using tunes, language and stories from the tradition), but because Jim Carroll doesn't like it.

I stand corrected.

I'm now going into the garden to burn all my CDs, then I'm going to throw my instruments on top of the pyre. Then I'm going to sit down with my cheque book and pay back all the money I've ever earned at a gig with 'folk' in the title.

Tom

PS Apologies to everyone else. I know I've just blown my reputation as the Kofi Annan of Folk, but it was this, or call Jim by a very very rude name.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

Pip Radish

The point Jim's been making is that the second movement has swamped the first - it happened years ago. From my much more limited experience I tend to agree. At the big singaround at Saddleworth FF last year, I heard someone give a terrific rendition of I Live Not Where I Love, introduced with what was effectively an apology ("it's an old song, but if you listen to the words...") And I've seen (or rather heard) a 50-25-25 ratio (50% covers, 25% original, 25% everything else including traditional) in many different venues.

The disagreement isn't just about Jim's method, it's also about how far this process has gone - and, to a lesser extent, how much of a problem it is.

Would you like to re-read and maybe respond to my post of 10 Mar 10 - 06:45 AM? The whole thing, not just the one senetence you've picked out so far.

It would be nice if Jim commented on it as well.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

Pip Radish wrote:
"At the big singaround at Saddleworth FF last year, I heard someone give a terrific rendition of I Live Not Where I Love, introduced with what was effectively an apology ("it's an old song, but if you listen to the words...") And I've seen (or rather heard) a 50-25-25 ratio (50% covers, 25% original, 25% everything else including traditional) in many different venues."

I don't get to very many singarounds these days, but for some time now many of them (in England at least) have had their own distinct repertoire, the main feature being that pretty well every song should have a chorus. That tends to rule out a lot of the ballads and lyrical traditional songs, but rules in a whole body of more recent material written with the chorus well to the fore in the composer's mind. Many a folk movement songwriter from MacColl onwards (think 'Manchester Rambler', or 'Thirty Foot Trailer') has been aware of the sticking power of a catchy refrain.

A number of years ago I heard tirades from both Martin Carthy and Peter Bellamy about the 'fake folk songs' that were taking over from the old songs in the singaround repertoire. I make no comment except that the best singarounds I ever went to were at the Girvan Folk Festival, which went on well into the wee hours and included excellent ballad singing alongside some of the best chorusing I've heard.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM

""Whether we like it or not, no matter how wide their tastes, everybody compartmentalises their music - try singing a traditional ballad, or performing a piece of chamber music at a pop venue (which, it appears to me, many folk clubs have metamorphosed into) - and then get ready to run for the door.""

That just shows how out of touch one can get.

I regularly attend two different open mike nights where rock and pop are the staples. In both venues I am treated with the same well mannered acceptance as is accorded the occasional pop, or rock number that makes its way into a predominantly folk event.

Look again my friend, because the kind of tight arsed proprietorial attitude you describe is beginning to look very much like projection.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM

I don't get to very many singarounds these days, but for some time now many of them (in England at least) have had their own distinct repertoire, the main feature being that pretty well every song should have a chorus.

Last singaround I went to, somebody did Young Hunting. The one before that, I did Little Musgrave. We do have the odd shanty or Thousands Or More or Jones's Ale dotted about through the evening, particularly towards the end, but the other kind is welcome too. As for the Saddleworth sing, there were hardly any chorus songs, trad or otherwise (I did Bonny Bunch of Roses). Lots of songs by Gordon Bok and Keith Marsden and Tom Paxton and in one case Tom Bliss (nice song too).

A number of years ago I heard tirades from both Martin Carthy and Peter Bellamy about the 'fake folk songs' that were taking over from the old songs in the singaround repertoire.

Apparently great minds think similarly to me!

Snail: there are a lot of different points in that comment, some of which I haven't disagreed with. Which bit did you want me to comment on?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:46 PM

Tom:
Please don't be sarcastic - are you trying to do me out of a job?
If we are going to continue slugging at each other (or preferably, maybe learn from one another's different take on the music) perhaps it might be worth taking time out to look at each other's work without either of us trying to score points (yes - I do include me in that).
My attitude, from my first contact with the revival was based on my love of traditional music- Liverpool, Manchester, London and finally the west of Ireland.
I have always been involved in traditional or traditionally influenced clubs, and my aim, apart from the huge enjoyment I got as a listener and sometime singer, was to pass on that music in some way or other.
I stumbled across traditional music in my home city of Liverpool at the beginning of the sixties, attended and helped organise clubs and eventually became a resident in Manchester and London. I was part of self help workshops in both; the former I set up off my own bat with the help and advice of MacColl and Seeger.
None of the clubs I was part of were sing-arounds, but rather, resident-based, and while all of them were, I hope, friendly, welcoming places, none of them considered themselves get-togethers or social centres.
The most successful, longest running and best known was The Singers Club in London, which first emerged as The Ballads and Blues some time in the latter half of the 1950s with MacColl, and Lloyd along with Joe Heaney, Seamus Ennis, Fitzroy Coleman (West Indies), Dominic Behan (and later Peggy Seeger) as the main residents. Some time later it became The Singers Club and ran until MacColl's final illness towards the end of the eighties.
Throughout its existence it booked high quality guests from all over The British Isles and beyond, but its basis was a body of guests capable of running the club on their own - visiting artists being the decoration on the cake.
During its life/lives, the B&B/Singers opened up the ballad repertoire, the sea songs, industrial songs and the London repertoire, this latter encouraging other regions to examine their own local songs. It also pioneered 'feature evenings' - themed nights around specific subjects, often including relevant readings and poetry.
In the early sixties a number of singers asked MacColl for 'lessons' to help them develop - he declined, but instead set up and headed a self-help workshop, The Critics Group, which ran for around ten years and provided a pool of able residents for the club. From the setting up of the Critics Group the Singers put on an annual (nearly) agit-prop show entitled 'The Festival of Fools' based on newspaper cutting of the previous years events - a living newspaper with a leftward political bias.
Throughout its existence the aim of the singers was to promote traditional song and to some degree, storytelling, and to encourage the writing of new songs based on traditional (I'll use trad. rather than folk in the hope of our not leaping at each others throats) forms. In order to encourage the latter Peggy Seeger set up and edited a magazine booklet, The New City Songster which published new songs from all over the English-speaking world and ran into over 20 editions.
This is what the Singers Club did, and it is why it gained a world-wide reputation and attracted thousands of overseas visitors throughout its life.
I joined the Critics Group in 1969 and remained a member until it became a agit prop theatre group in the early 70s. I became a Singers resident some time in the early seventies and remained one for around two years till I dropped out in order to concentrate on collecting work. For a short time I edited three editions of a club magazine, 'The Lark'.
From then, I was resident/organiser at three clubs in the London area with similar policies, but not the advantages of the Singers. I also helped run the London Singers Workshop which worked with mainly new singers and ran for around sixteen years.
My main commitment to music was always traditional and traditionally based - doesn't mean I don't listen to other musics, just that it's this I have spent around two-thirds of my life listening to, performing and promoting.
Sorry (to all of you) far taking so long over this. Please feel free to comment on this, ignore it or burn it ritually - whatever takes your fancy.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan - will respond to your question, but don't want it to be swamped in all this verbiage.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM

"body of guests capable of running the club on their own"
Should read 'residents'- believe this to be essential to the running of a successful long-term club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:14 AM

No Jim, there are many viable models.

The residents approach is merely the one you like.... and how you have done it in the past. IMHO of course.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:20 AM

Pip, you could start with the bit at the beginning that is headed Pip Radish followed by a quote from you and my response to it. Perhaps I should add Tom Bliss's post of 10 Mar 10 - 03:54 AM to the list of people whose experience of the response to traditional music differs from yours. I'm sorry that things are a bit sparse in your area, but don't be in such a rush to generalise to the whole country.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:35 AM

Paul - you are right of course.
What I should have said was "I believe this to be essential for what we were trying to achieve.
I do feel strongly that it is necessary to be clear what you wish to present at folk singaround clubs otherwise they become venues where any type of song is sung - light opera to Jumpin' Jack Flash, (folk by some peoples definition, I believe - but not mine) fine if that's what you want, but "it isn't a Hen".

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:14 AM

I accept that Jim.

It's an interesting conundrum for singaround based clubs (which we're not a KFFC, we are very much "concert" based, though we have a singaround after the acts for those that want to stay).... around here at least.

We are pretty thinly populated in rural North Yorkshire, I'm really not sure how many participants/ attendees you would get for a purely Trad based singaround. There are plenty of singarounds within fairly easy travelling distance but (with the exception of The Brit in Darlington which is very much a "singers" club with a high % of trad) general "anything goes" type nights. Trad and Trad sounding are pretty well represented at most though.

It would take quite a leap of faith (and the desire) by a singaround organiser to go "Trad only". It might be an interesting (if sometimes lonely!) experiment to try.

Having said that, a couple of the leading younger local singers/ players do seem to be going through a Trad phase at the moment. I might organise a one off and see how it goes.

I'm not likely to change the direction of KFFC though as we are getting an established audience for what we do now (8o%+ of our acts include at least some traditional material) and attracting in a high proportion of "non-folkies"..... which seems important to me for the health (and growth) of folk music in general.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:21 AM

You say, "Potato" and I say,"Spud"!

      There are two other factor which need to be considered here.

       First is the fact that mass communication technology has rendered oral tradition unnecessary. Oral tradition was how these thing got passed along and preserved BEFORE the invention of audio recordings, radio, TV, the internet, etc. If you really want to get picky about it you can trace the beginning of the end of oral tradition back to the invention of moveable type which enabled the production of mass-produced sheet music. But, that's pushing things a bit far. The point is that oral tradition once filled a need which is now filled by other things.
       Second, oral tradition has not completely disappeared. Children still pass about amongst themselves song which they don't want the grown-ups to hear. Remember those subversive little ditties that you used to sing in the schoolyard? If memory serves me, Michael Cooney was collecting those for a while.

         In our complex and convoluted society almost all things still exist. You just need to know where to look for them.

Stephen L. Rich

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:21 AM

Paul;
I accept your "I'm really not sure how many participants/ attendees you would get for a purely Trad based singaround" totally, (if that's what I was suggesting - which I'm not). I don't even know what size audiences we would get for what we once did in the West London Folk Club, or Court Sessions, or The Singers Club, or any other club I have ever been involved in - there may no longer be any takers for such nights; but that's a little beside the point.
If you set out to promote a given type of music - say Grand Opera - which is what you should be doing if you call yourselves a 'Grand Opera Club', surely it's a little illogical to say, "Right, we're not getting enough punters in; let's put on 'Mothers of Invention' tribute nights instead (unless you change your name or objectives to 'M O I tribute Club.'
If your object is to, as somebody put it, "put bums on seats" - fine - call yourself a P.B.O.S. club.
If folk/traditional song is to sink or survive, surely it has to be allowed to under it's own flag?
One thing I do know for certain - not too long ago Irish music was treated with the same derision folk music is treated in England. The situation was turned around by musicians and enthusiasts getting their act together and pushing a competent version of what they want to promote, not by substituting something else.
Next week there will almost certainly be something like 100 children and young people on the St Patricks day march through this one-street town playing traditional music at at least a competent and at best a superb standard.
Stephen L Rich;
Sums it up nicely.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

Jim,

...... I thought (hoped) we might be able to move on from the definition argument and address some frankly (to my mind) more important issues of how traditional (and folk) music might best be promoted to the public.

Oh well. I would have valued your thoughts on that.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

"If folk/traditional song is to sink or survive, surely it has to be allowed to under it's own flag?"

But where, Jim Carroll, is the poor beleaguered organiser to draw the line? What may he permit in his club for it to be 'flying the flag,' and therefore exempt from your opprobrium?

When you have been asked this before you have consitently quoted the 54 as being the only true and valid definition. You've made it very plain, on numerous occasions, that unless a song conforms to the 54 definition, it is not Folk - and then you've said something like what you just said to Paul, or stronger.

But now it emerges that you DO allow some music to be 'Folk' enough to 'fly the flag' even though it doesn't conform to the 54. How you justify this to yourself remains a mystery.

I've struggled to find a way of expressing this shift in your position, and the best word I can find which manages to hide the depth of my feelings about it is 'convenient.'

But you have cited "Tawney, McGinn and MacColl" as being not 'in the canon' but never-the-less acceptable.

Now, we know that Tom Bliss is not acceptable.

Leaving aside my feelings, this is important because most people would, I think, say I was in the style of those writers (if not perhaps as gifted). So perhaps I might serve as a useful bench-mark for anyone wishing to avoid your disapproval, or worse.

So it would be very useful if you would kindly answer these questions:

Is Tom Bliss a fraud for performing in Folk Clubs because:

a) He is not good enough? (Don't hold back - I can deal with it)

b) His songs are not sufficiently close in style to The Tradition? (and please explain how if so)

c) His songs have not been taken up by enough people? (how many people would be required, by the way, bearing in mind that many songs by the writers you cite were never taken up - and could you also explain how a songwriter gets to have his songs taken up if he may never play in Folk cubs - or was this only permissible at the start of the Revival)?

d) You have never heard them, so you don't know (in which case, why the condemnation of fraud)?

e) MacColl did not give him a stamp of approval (I only ask because a few people have suggested this one, and perhaps you'd like a chance to rebut it).


Then moving on from that, perhaps you could give us a clear idea of where you DO draw the line - beyond which, if clubs do book the writer, the organiser is not 'flying the flag' so must remove the word Folk from the title of his club.

Is Jez Lowe ok? Bryn Phillips? Dave Evardson? Allan Taylor? George Papavgeris? Paul Metsers? Jimmy MacCarthy? Steve Tilston? Steve Knightly?

I am well aware of your very impressive, but now somewhat distant, CV. You plainly believe it accredits you to pronounce on these matters, so I hope you will feel able to.

If you can't, or choose not to, those who think that really and truly your actual idea of what's acceptable as Folk is no more than the songs you enjoyed in your youth, are going to draw the wrong conclusion.

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:33 AM

Oh, I've thought of some more

Could it be..

f) Because he's posh/educated/too smooth?

g) Because he's also written songs which are not informed by The Tradition?

h) He plainly only does it for the money / fame?

i) Because he has not made them Public Domain?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:35 AM

Jim –

If Walter Pardon had come to your club and wanted to sing Jumpin' Jack Flash, would you have taken him aside and reminded him of his responsibility as a traditional singer? Just pretend...


Last night at the Red Deer singaround in Sheffield, there were five Top Ten chart hits sung – and three of them were traditional! Three and a half, actually...

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:05 AM

And we also need an answer to this.

Jim Carroll wrote in reply:

"Does it really matter if all of D - X above are sung alongside traditional songs as long as the traditional songs are being sung," Yes it does - it robs it of its uniqueness."

Does this mean, therefore, that the songs of Tom Bliss should not be sung alongside traditional songs, because it robs them of their uniqueness?

Why does that not apply to songs by MacColl, Tawney and McGinn?

Does this also mean that all four of these artists were wrong to sing traditional songs alongside their own compositions?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

What will finish traditional song, is people making Solomon like judgements on it and being arrogant and obnoxious because they believe they've stored sufficient bownie points to do so.
In the 1970s I photographed and documented the lives of the residents of terrace streets that were about to be demolished. Does that make me an expert in speculative Victorian architecture, slum clearance, the post-industrial working class? None of the above I suspect.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:34 AM

I'd really like to hear clarification of Jim's position on what is 'stylistically similar enough to 54folk' - and particularly how that is to be democratically ascertained - to be deemed appropriate in a folk club?
'Cos this glaring inconsistancy in Jim's argument, renders it unsustainable IMO.

As I said further down, to my ears MaCcoll's songs are no more and no less 'traditional sounding' than anything else one might happen hear played on an acoustic guitar at an 'anything goes' singaround environment, and as songs they are no more and no less interesting likewise. But that's my personal response to them.

This is why I said further down again, the key for me is not to try to curtail what others enjoy doing 'in the name of folk' (be it at formal folk club or informal singaround) but in establishing more self-organised dedicated tradsong groups, for amateurs (newbies and dilletantes both) interested in discovering, exploring and SINGING traditional songs for themselves among themselves.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

Edit:

by "among themselves" I don't necessarily mean *exclusively* among themselves like a nerdy little huddle of whey faced D&D'ers

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM

Repeated from the other thread on "traditional song", because I think it is pertinent to both (why did we need two threads on what is really only one question?).



For Mudcat purposes, "traditional" whatever JC says it is.

Folk is whatever is enshrined within the 1954 definition, plus some "in the style of the tradition" new songs by composers whom JC respects, admires, or actually enjoys.

Anything else is lumped together as "Anything Goes", and is absolutely beyond the pale, and both "traditional", and "folk" should, if necessary be allowed to die, rather than be corrupted by the presence, in the same program, of music or song of which JC does not approve.

Those of us who write "in the style of the tradition", but are unknown to JC, should simply give it up and get a proper job.

Those of us who run folk clubs which fail to offer a written warranty of totally traditional content should do likewise.

Have I missed anything out, Jim?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

"If Walter Pardon had come to your club and wanted to sing Jumpin' Jack Flash......"
Course I wouldn't, Raymond, I wouldn't have to, unlike with many of the folkies on here:

Walter Pardon inteview:
" J. C.         All right; take another song; take something like 'Marble Arch' and 'Maid of Australia,' both of which are fairly amusing, anyway, would you see any difference in them?
W. P.         Well yes, because there's a difference in the types of the music, that's another point.
You can tell 'Van Dieman's Land' is fairly old by the sound, the music, and 'Irish Molly' and 'Marble Arch' is shortened up; they shortened them in the Victorian times. And so they did more so in the Edwardian times.   Some songs then, you'd hardly start before you'd finish, you see; you'd only a four line verse, two verses and a four line chorus and that'd finish.   You'd get that done in half a minute; and the music wasn't as good.   Yeah, the style has altered.   You can nearly tell by the old 'Broomfield Hill', that's an old tune; 'The Trees They Do Grow High', you can tell, and 'Generals All'.
Nine times out of ten I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell what is an old song.   Of course that doesn't matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that.   And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth (century), they finish this way, pulled out, look.   You take notice how 'Generals All' finish; that got an old style of finishing, so have 'The Trees They Do Grow High', so have 'The Gallant Sea Fight', in other words, 'A Ship To Old England Came', that is the title, 'The Gallant Sea Fight'. You can tell they're old, the way they how they… that drawn out note at finish.   You just study and see what they are, how they work, you'll find that's where the difference is.
And as that got further along; that's where I slipped up with 'Black Eyed Susan' I thought that was probably William the Fourth by the music, but that go back about to 1730, that one do.
Well, a lot of them you'll find, what date back years and years, there's a difference in the style of writing the music, as that progressed along that kept altering a lot.   Like up into Victorian times, you've got 'Old Brown's Daughter', you see, that come into Victorian times; well that style started altering, they started shortening the songs up, everything shortened up, faster and quicker, and the more new they get, the more faster they get, the styles alter, I think you'll find if you check on that, that's right."

Walter Pardon interview:
"J.C.         If you had the choice Walter… if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half-a-dozen or a dozen songs even, of all your songs, what would be the choice, can you think offhand what you would choose to sing?
W.P.         'The Pretty Ploughboy' would be one, that's one; 'Rambling Blade' would be another one, 'The Rambling Blade' would be two, 'Van Dieman's Land' three, 'Let The Wind Blow High or Low', that'd be four, 'Broomfield Hill', that's five, 'Trees The Do Grow High', six, that'd be six."

There's plenty more where that came from - you see, Walter knew what folk songs were and used the the term freely, as did many of the other singers we recorded. If you are the slightest bit interesed in what he and other traditional singers thought about their songs rather than trying to score points with silly hypotheses, I suggest you look up the article 'A Folksong By Any Other Name' on the Enthusiasm pages of Musical Traditions - please come back and tell me what you think of it. I'll also be happy to send you the article 'A Simple Countryman?' (note the question mark) which will give you more of a picture of Walter and his views - I'm afraid they don't make comfortable reading for you 'Anything Goes' crowd. If people knew or cared as much as Walter and his fellow traditional singers about their songs, perhaps we'd have a few more bums on seats and a better chance of ensuring that the next generation gets the opportunities we had to enjoy folk songs rather than be stuck with forty year old pop songs that are as alien to todays youngsters as a three hundred year old ballad.
"What will finish traditional song,....." is dismissing everybody who doesn't agree with him as a shower of c**** (quote).
Guest TB:
I have never heard Tom Bliss's songs, nor have I EVER suggested that he should not sing his songs alongside traditional ones - perhaps you could point out where I have.
My argument with Tom is purely on his using the term 'folk' as a landfill where you dump any song that takes your fancy - no more.
Paul;
The answer to the original question depends entirely on whether we get the definition sorted IMO.   
Will try to respond seperately CS - can't really see the point in submerging your question in this candy-floss.
"Have I missed anything out, Jim?"
Have you said anything Don?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:28 PM

And
Walter Pardon interview:

PICTURES WHILE SINGING
J C   Can I ask you something else then Walter. When you're singing in a club or at a festival, who do you look at, what do you see when you're singing?
W P   Well, I don't see anything.
J C   You don't look at the audience.
W P   No, that's why I like a microphone; I'd rather stand up in front of a microphone and that sort of thing 'cause it's something to look at, that's what I like, this sort of thing in front so you can shut the audience out, 'cause I can shut the audience right away from everywhere.
J C   So what do you see then, when you're…..?
W P   Well actually what I'm singing about, like reading a book; you always imagine you can see what is happening there, you might as well not read it.
P Mc   So you see what you're singing about?
W P   Hmm
P Mc   And how do you see it; as a moving thing, as a still thing?
W P   That's right.
P Mc   Moving?
W P   That's right. The Pretty Ploughboy was always ploughing in the field over there, that's where that was supposed to be.
J C    Over there?
W P Hmm.
J C    So it's that field just across the way?
W P   That's right.
J C    How about van Dieman's Land?
W P   Well, that was sort of imagination what that was really like, in Warwickshire, going across, you know, to Australia; seeing them chained to the harrow and plough and that sort of thing; chained hand-to-hand, all that.
You must have imagination to see; I think so, that's the same as reading a book, you must have imagination to see where that is, I think so, well I do anyhow.
P Mc   But you never shut your eyes when you're singing, do you?
W P    No, no.
P Mc   But if you haven't got a microphone to concentrate on, if you're singing in front of an audience, where do you look?
W P   Down my nose, like that.
P Mc   Yes, you do, yeah.
W P   That is so. Have you noticed that?
P Mc   Yeah.
J C   Do the people in the songs that you sing, do they have their own identity or are they people you know or have known in the past?
W P   No, their own identity, I imagine what they look like.

Wonder what he thought about when he was singing Jumpin' Jack Flash'!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:14 PM

many of his compositions still resonate - for me anyway.
Tenant Farmer, Lag's Song, Kilroy, Freeborn Man (or any of the Travellers songs), Shoals of Herring (still going strong forty years after the herring disappeared from the North Sea), Driver's Song, Come Me Little Son, Rambler From Clare, Shellback, Joy of Living, Farewell To Ireland, My Old Man, Sharpeville, Ballad of the Carpenter, Sweet Thames.... (where do you stop?)

For me you stop with "Shoals of Herring". It's the only one in that list I've ever heard anybody sing. (Last time I had North Sea herring was two weeks ago, not forty years).

"Yarmouth Pier" works better for me and sounds more like a traditional song. "The Terror Time" also works better for me and sounds *nothing* like a traditional song.

I think from the distance you're at, you don't realize what a forgotten figure MacColl now is.

On the other hand, genuinely traditional material is doing just fine in the hands of younger performers.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:15 PM

Wonder what he thought about when he was singing Jumpin' Jack Flash'!
Jim Carroll

Probably what I think about when I'm singing it, since he seems to visualise his songs in exactly the same way as I (and probably thousands of others) do. Is this ability to visualise, then, a badge of "folkness"? You seem to be offering it as such.

As for Walter's melodeon test, I get precisely the same effect on anglo with J J Flash...

Okay, it is of course a silly hypothesis, but simply substitute the name of any traditional (as opposed to revival) singer for Walter Pardon, and any non-folk song for JJ Flash, and what would be your response? Hoy, you can't sing that here – you're a folk singer! It's in your contract...

To put it another way, would you have vetted a traditional singer's repertoire in advance before you let him/her sing at your club? And would your audience have trashed the room in righteous fury if Walter had sung, say, Underneath The Arches - an "alien forty-year old pop song" at the time he was playing folk clubs - in his signature style?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

"I have never heard Tom Bliss's songs, nor have I EVER suggested that he should not sing his songs alongside traditional ones - perhaps you could point out where I have."

You told Paul only today that it is wrong to mix traditional songs with non-folk songs. I do that, therefore I am wrong. ("Does it really matter if all of D - X above are sung alongside traditional songs as long as the traditional songs are being sung," Yes it does - it robs it of its uniqueness.")

You have told me, often, that my songs are not folk songs.

You have said, often, that only songs as 'approved' by the 54 definition can be called folk. My songs cannot be approved by the 54, therefore they cannot be folk songs.

You have told us, often, that it is wrong to sing not-folk songs in folk clubs. That is something I did for 10 years, therefore I am guilty as charged.

You have told me, in so many words, that I am cheating my audience by implying (by accepting a booking in a folk clubs) that I will sing only folk songs.

You have said that clubs (who use the word folk, only) who book me are cheating their audiences by implying that I will sing only folk songs when I don't.

I'm not going to waste my time looking for the references. Everyone here knows you have said all these things.

Given the way you have laid into club organisers and artists in the past, I think you have a duty to answer the questions above properly, and not just seize on the one mention of Pardon to blow smoke from your Illustrious CV at us.

It may make you a respected collector, but it won't make you a respected person.

I repeat.

If contemporary songs, outwith the 54, are acceptable in Folk clubs after all, where are club organisers and artists to draw the line?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:14 PM

From this link - http://www.eatmt.org.uk/walter_pardon.htm

Walter had a large repertoire, 150 songs from Norfolk and beyond. Some were traditional ballads or songs of great battles, some about the experiences of young men and saucy young women ("The Maid of Australia"), some are from printed Broadsides ("The Dark-Eyed Sailor"), others are music hall tearjerkers, all sung with due respect and quiet relish.

The track list from a double CD -

MTCD305-6 Put a bit of powder on it, Father -Walter Pardon

CDR1

1. Cupid the Ploughboy
2. A Country Life
3. The Poor Smuggler's Boy
4. I'm Yorkshire Though in London
5. Seventeen Come Sunday
6. The Parson and the Clerk
7. Blow the Winds I-O
8. Hold the Fort
9. All Among the Barley
10. Black-Eyed Susan
11. Caroline and Her Young Sailor Bold   
12. Lord Lovel
13. The Skipper and his Boy
14. Thornaby Woods
15. An Old Man's Advice
16. If I Were a Blackbird
17. The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O
18. The Green Bushes
19. Polly Vaughan
20. The Saucy Sailor
21. Little Ball of Yarn
22. The Huntsman

CDR2

1. Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father
2. The Cuckoo
3. Old Joe the Boat is Going Over
4. Cock-a-Doodle-Do
5. The Harland Road /Wheel Your P'rambulator
6. Ben Bolt
7. Uncle Walter's Tune
8. Two Lovely Black Eyes
9. Alice Grey
10. Rosin-a-Beau
11. Not for Joseph, Not for Joe
12. The Old Armchair
13. The Marble Arch
14. Wake Up Johnny /When the Cock begins to Crow /Saving Them All for Mary /Down by the Old Abbey Ruins
15. The Mistletoe Bough
16. On a See-Saw
17. Your Faithful Sailor Boy
18. Here's to the Grog
19. Nancy Lee
20. Up the Chimney Pot /Slave Driving Farmers /Bound to Emigrate to New Zealand
21. Husband Taming
22. Uncle Walter's March
23. If I Ever Get Drunk Again
24. Naughty Jemima Brown
25. The Dandy Man
26. For Me, For Me
27. While Shepherds Watched


By the way, at the Royal Oak, near neighbours of the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, on Thursday night, the first four songs sung before the guest went on were from the singing of, in order, Pop Maynard, Walter Pardon, Walter Pardon, Stanley Robertson. The guest, the excellent Tim van Eyken, sang songs from the singing of Joseph Taylor, Paddy Tunney and Packie Byrne amongst others. The room was full; everybody had a good time; nobody sang Jumpin' Jack Flash.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:42 PM

"""Have I missed anything out, Jim?"
Have you said anything Don?""

Yes mate! I said the following, which you were unwilling (or unable) to rebut:-

For Mudcat purposes, "traditional" is whatever JC says it is.

Folk is whatever is enshrined within the 1954 definition, plus some "in the style of the tradition" new songs by composers whom JC respects, admires, or actually enjoys.

Anything else is lumped together as "Anything Goes", and is absolutely beyond the pale, and both "traditional", and "folk" should, if necessary be allowed to die, rather than be corrupted by the presence, in the same program, of music or song of which JC does not approve.

Those of us who write "in the style of the tradition", but are unknown to JC, should simply give it up and get a proper job.

Those of us who run folk clubs which fail to offer a written warranty of totally traditional content should do likewise.

Can you point out one single sentence in that which cannot be justified from the content and tenor of your comments on this, and other, threads?

Don T.
















Wassup Jim, too close to the truth for you?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:01 PM

Jack;
"It's the only one in that list I've ever heard anybody sing."
You must lead a very sheltered life Jack; most of them have been club favourites for years; some have been recorded since Ewan's death.
Said it elsewhere but a couple of Traveller girls came into our local on Saturday and sang 'Freeborn Man' and Come Me Little Son'.
Tom:
"You told Paul only today that it is wrong to mix traditional songs with non-folk songs."
Where did I do that Tom? I have been advocating the making and singing of contemporary songs since my early days in the revival; plodded round the Singers Club and sold New City Songsters on numerous occasions; even attended song-writing classes by Ewan and Peggy - failed miserably. You accused me of not reading your posts - please read mine. My argument is that if you are drawing an audience in for folk (traditional) songs, they are entitled to a consistency and not the hodge-podge you presented and the redefinitions by your ghost army of 54 million (was that the number).
Part of our work down the years has been in encouraging the making of songs using folk forms (the dictionary definition of folk that we have lived with since the days of William Thom rather than yours I'm afraid). I intend to go into my argument on contemporary song in reply to Crow Sister.
"You have told me, often, that my songs are not folk songs."
Nor do I believe them to be, but as I have said persistently - here and on other threads, I believe that introducing contemporary songs into the repertoire is essential for its continuance - but that doesn't mean I would include those of Britney Spears or The Jedwards.
''approved' by the 54 definition'
I assume you mean 'defined' don't you - it's a definition, not a court verdict. I always find distortions of this type a sign of desperation - don't you?
"You have told us, often, that it is wrong to sing not-folk songs in folk clubs"
Where?
"You have told me, in so many words, that I am cheating my audience by implying (by accepting a booking in a folk clubs) that I will sing only folk songs."
Where - my point remains that my differences with you are based on your manipulating the dictionary to make your songs 'folk', no more.
"I'm not going to waste my time looking for the references."
Now how did I know you were going to say that?
"Given the way you have laid into club organisers and artists in the past, I think you have a duty to answer the questions above properly"
"Am trying my best Tom, Now how about a little reciprocation?
"If contemporary songs, outwith the 54, are acceptable in Folk clubs after all, where are club organisers and artists to draw the line?"
It's called judgement Tom - most people come with it built in, especially those who feel a responsibility to those who make the effort to come and listen.
I have been told by several people (were you one of them) that I have no right to expect anything but what I am given in the name of folk song; "Caveat Emptor" wasn't it?
Raymond:
"....and any non-folk song for JJ Flash, and what would be your response?"
How long have you got. If it was our club where it happened the singer would not be asked to sing again - that's all. I have never seen a singer stopped on stage in the middle of a song and asked to desist. As I said, we ran resident-based clubs, not singarounds.
What we often got was singers turning up, asking the doorkeeper for a floorspot, then pissing off down to the bar without finding out what kind of a club we were - they were usually looking for bookings. We operated a policy club, and felt it our responsibility to honour that policy because that's what we drew our audience in for.
"To put it another way, would you have vetted a traditional singer's repertoire in advance before you let him/her sing at your club"
If we were booking a singer we would want to know what he/she did beforhand - doesn't everybody - is that what you mean by vetting?
"And would your audience have trashed the room in righteous fury if Walter had sung, say, Underneath The Arches".
The Singer's Club audience would not have been happy bunnies - they were an extremely discriminating mob. During the thirty years of its existence it built up a reputaition for traditional and traditional based songs well sung - how would you feel if you had flown halfway round the world to hear great ballad singing only to be given - what was it.....?
I'm afraid you're pissing against the wind with Walter. He had a large repertoire of music hall, Victorian parlour ballads and early 20th century pop songs which he pointedly refused to sing in public, not just our club - and was extermely reluctant to record, despite our efforts (but we got them in the end, nice man that he was). He had an almost photographic memory when it came to picking up songs and sucked them up like a vaccuum cleaner - he compartmentalised them and analysed them at great length - some transcripts available on request.
I suggest you get out of this minefield while you still have your feet.
Nobody has acknowledged the artical I recommended nor requested the other I offered, so I take it Walter's opinions are only of use to you as potential ammunition (which apparently has backfired).
Bryan:
Thanks for Walter's list - the CD was issued posthumously, so Walter had no say in its composition. As I said, we have plenty of examples of him differentiating and expressing an opinion, should anybody doubt this.
By the way, any suggestion that Walter was 'got at' by the revival were dispelled by his repertoire book of song transcriptions clearly arranged into folk-non-folk, dated 1948 - the year he returned home from the army.
Thanks also for the breakdown of your club - perhaps you might arrange Pip Radish to be flown in each week for future club nights.
G'night all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:19 PM

Sorry Don - you're a late bird too.
"For Mudcat purposes, "traditional" is whatever JC says it is."
"Folk is whatever is enshrined within the 1954 definition, plus some "in the style of the tradition" new songs by composers whom JC respects, admires, or actually enjoys."
The '54 definition has been a guide to how we worked in the field, no more - had strong opinions long before I came across it - as did the many hundreds of authors and editors of the books we have on our shelves. The whole revival was launched on the basis of knowing what folk song was - the arse dropped out of it when people like you forgot and just wanted to 'put bums on seats' without knowing what they were putting them there for.
Mind you - I have to confess thirty odd years of talking to traditional singers has had some influence!
"Anything else is lumped together as "Anything Goes....."
Please read my previous posting.
"and "folk" should, if necessary be allowed to die...."
Folk has been dying the death of a thousand cuts because people like you appear neither to know nor care what it is and have shown no commitment to what you claim to be presenting.
Those of us who write "in the style of the tradition...."
Please read my above posting
"Those of us who run folk clubs which fail to offer a written warranty...."
Please read my above posting and many many others.
"Can you point out one single sentence in that which cannot be justified from the content and tenor of your comments on this, and other, threads?"
Where do I start - perhaps you'd like to help me out and specify.
G'night and sweet dreams,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:22 AM

TB "If contemporary songs, outwith the 54, are acceptable in Folk clubs after all, where are club organisers and artists to draw the line?"

JC'It's called judgement Tom - most people come with it built in...'

Or my word and the word of people I agree with is better than your word. Jim, it's either 54 and pastiche fillers OR if it sounds like folk music ir is. Your wiggle room just ran out.
Which is it?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:47 AM

I actually went to McColls Singers club (Something of Pindar??...too long ago to remember).
But I do remember that it was the most unwelcoming, unfriendly, most exclusive room that I'd ever been to. I didn't play at the time (1973??) but watching floor singers having to go through the X Factor bit, with Ewan sat behind them on stage, almost taking notes.
It almost made me give up on the folk scene.
Luckily as a musician, I found other outlets.
And am very glad that I did.
Have to say that most of McColls songs do not appeal. Yes I know that I've recorded "Fathers Song" and "Manchester Rambler". (not the original, but the John Tams re-written version). but Sorry Jim. I found him to be Unwelcoming, Unapproachable, and rather Unpleasant.
Yes, he did great work with Charles Parker on the original Radio Ballads. for which I applaud him. and his legacy lives on with the new series of programmes.
But one night at the Singers club was enough for me.
Ralphie
PS whats this 54 thing all about???? Have never seen it. And neither have any of my mates??
Can you point me at a web site so that I can have a laugh?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:55 AM

Pindar of Wakefield? Gray's Inn Road? Little theatre room at the back of the pub?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:36 AM

"Pindar of Wakefield? Gray's Inn Road? Little theatre room at the back of the pub?"
That's the one - Singers left there some timne in the early to mid sixties.
20 years of association with MacColl and 30 with the Singers doesn't come remomotely within your description - there again, I didn't have the advantage of only visiting the place once. The friendly welcome i received as a callow youth from Liverpool when I was first there was a major reason I moved to London. The Singers was a place to hear good songs well sung - the warmth was a bonus thrown in for me.
I take it you spoke to somebody while you were there!
Glueman;
"54 and pastiche fillers OR if it sounds like folk music"
'54 has always been one of the many guides I have occasionally borne in mind in my research work; "If it sounds like..." has been a way of choosing my clubs (as with everbody, I suspect).
I've already said that - pay attention boy!
My wiggle remains untouched, but there in the remote chance that I should ever need it - not so far despite your strenuous and often malicious efforts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:38 AM

Raymond:
"....and any non-folk song for JJ Flash, and what would be your response?"
JC: How long have you got. If it was our club where it happened the singer would not be asked to sing again - that's all.

Me; That includes Walter Pardon, then?

JC: I have never seen a singer stopped on stage in the middle of a song and asked to desist. As I said, we ran resident-based clubs, not singarounds.
What we often got was singers turning up, asking the doorkeeper for a floorspot, then pissing off down to the bar without finding out what kind of a club we were - they were usually looking for bookings. We operated a policy club, and felt it our responsibility to honour that policy because that's what we drew our audience in for.

Me; Thanks for the detailed account of your club-running days, but I was actually proposing a sort of thought experiment: Imagine you were running a club that booked Walter Pardon. Would you have taken care to discourage him in advance against singing anything you didn't consider to be a folk song, or rebuked him afterwards if he had?

"To put it another way, would you have vetted a traditional singer's repertoire in advance before you let him/her sing at your club"
JC: If we were booking a singer we would want to know what he/she did beforhand - doesn't everybody - is that what you mean by vetting?

Me: Not quite. More than just a general notion of what a singer does ("Oh, Walter Pardon – sings songs learned orally from his community, unaccompanied and plays a bit of melodeon"). Would you actually make a point of confirming in advance with a booked guest that he/she would under no circumstances sing a song that didn't conform in every angle and contour with the 1954 definition? Now that's what I call vetting.

"And would your audience have trashed the room in righteous fury if Walter had sung, say, Underneath The Arches".
JC: The Singer's Club audience would not have been happy bunnies - they were an extremely discriminating mob. During the thirty years of its existence it built up a reputaition for traditional and traditional based songs well sung - how would you feel if you had flown halfway round the world to hear great ballad singing only to be given - what was it.....?

Me: Unhappy bunnies taking themselves far too seriously, by the sound of it. Did the Singer's Club really bus its audience in from the other side of the world?

JC: I'm afraid you're pissing against the wind with Walter. He had a large repertoire of music hall, Victorian parlour ballads and early 20th century pop songs which he pointedly refused to sing in public, not just our club - and was extermely reluctant to record, despite our efforts (but we got them in the end, nice man that he was). He had an almost photographic memory when it came to picking up songs and sucked them up like a vaccuum cleaner - he compartmentalised them and analysed them at great length - some transcripts available on request.

Me: Can you offer an opinion on why he took the trouble to learn these songs around which he placed this cordon sanitaire? And do you think his reluctance to inflict them on "discriminating" folk audiences (and collectors) had anything to do with what he thought they'd put up with?

JC: I suggest you get out of this minefield while you still have your feet.

Me: I assume that's the line you used with singers who didn't sing the sort of songs you liked. Okay, mate – I can take a hint. Cheerio! Nice to talk...