Is traditional song finished?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:54 PM

Bryan;
You have my basic expectations for a folk club.

"Q "Do I, as potential audience, have any right to expect anything remotely resembling the accepted definition of folk song which my, and just about everbody I was involved with's understanding of the term is based on?
A "No, you do not because other people's understanding is different."
The rest has been covered interminably and will not be responded to by me again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:56 PM

Has it never occured to anyone that when a community has finished with a song it had served its purpose? The 'collectors and other thieves' refers to the elevated role of the collector in the folk process (every word in inverted commas). Surely the only compiler note to accompany anon is 'anon'?
If I've missed something feel free to point out what.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:05 PM

Jim Carroll

You have my basic expectations for a folk club.

You are most kind.

Just to clarify a point, my understanding is pretty much the same as yours; other people's understanding is different based on precedents going back seventy years or more and neither you nor I nor anyone else has the right to tell them they are wrong.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:31 PM

And I have said many times that accepting no standards other than "wanting to" can and has led to unacceptably poor performances
Maybe it can; maybe it has, but that doesn't mean it always will. It hasn't at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club. Your analysis may be a little simplistic. There may be other factors to consider.

I go to sessions more than clubs. In the session scene, there is no doubt that standards have risen considerably over the last couple of decades (I don't except myself - I'm playing much better now than when I started). And this has taken place with a general ethos of "if you want to play, join in" - I've never heard of any session that imposed explicit standards for performing ability. So my experience chimes 100% with Brian's.

I would be curious to know if Jim Carroll has ever actually enforced the quality standards he advocates, and if so how he (or the club he belonged to) did it. Did a panel of judges rule on whether singers were up to scratch, with a team of bouncers on hand to throw out the ones that didn't measure up? How was it actually done? [Script it as if for a film, with full dialogue and body language written in.]

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:46 PM

""It is precisely discussions of this nature that do much to convince me of the wisdom of leaving our material on the shelves for posterity to decide.""

You really need to make your mind up Jim. Either you do, or don't, want us to promote traditional music in the way we always have.

Which is it Jim? Your constant changes of stance are confusing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:22 PM

""No intention of shelving the tradition for posterity Don
Our collection is up for grabs in at least 4 publicly accessible archives (5th local one in the process of being set up) and has been so for at least thirty years - added to as it was collected - where are your songs?""

You really are an obnoxious little bastard, aren't you Jim?

I create songs, and anybody who asks for lyrics or melody gets them, with my permission to perform as and when they choose. I do put the little c on them, purely so that they will be known as my creations, and for no other reason.

I have no intention of demanding payment for their use, either live, or recorded, as long as my authorship is acknowledged.

Tell me Jim, have you ever created anything other than recordings of other peoples work? If so, why, since you despise all contemporary creations except those belonging to composers who you happen to value.

""So far Peta Webb and Ken Hall, The Silly Sisters, June Tabor and several others who haven't needed to contact so we don't know who they are, have issued songs from our collection totally free from copyright - have any of yours been distributed in the same manner?""

Do you really think that these class acts would have been voiceless without your input? If so, you really are deluded!

My songs, of course, have not reached the audience that would be attained by these singers whom I too admire, but, wherever I go to clubs or festivals, I meet people who have heard my songs, and ask for them by title.

Can you say the same Jim, and if the answer is yes, tell me why you so despise us who do the same?

If the answer is no, then it is you who has no idea what you are talking about.

If so, you are just another librarian, and librarians only need to be able to point customers toward what they are looking for. They don't have to understand the content.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:29 PM

""It's the English material that the question mark hangs over. I'm left with the impression that you and people like you wouldn't recognise or appreciate a traditional song if it ran up behind you with its hand over its ear and bit your arse - that's the stuff that'll probably stay on the shelf, because frankly, we can't think for the life of us who would possibly be interested in it - apart from the notable few; no sign of anybody here.
Come back and tell me about 'shelving for posterity' when you can match that. As they say "put your money where your rather loudly belligerent mouth is".""

So what do we learn from this nonsense?

Well, the simple fact that you are jealous of anyone who has the creative talent and ability you so obviously lack, and as a result can't stand anything that shows up your lack. Keep your petty little library of songs which are already out here. You still won't be capable of any more than recording the talent of others.

Bye
Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:02 PM

If so, you are just another librarian, and librarians only need to be able to point customers toward what they are looking for. They don't have to understand the content.

Good ones do, and Jim seems to be a good one. No need to reply to unfair dismissiveness in kind.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:22 AM

Leave it, Don. Jim is an important figure in the folk revival. He and Pat have done some very valuable work. If it were not for that, I wouldn't have bothered with him.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

"I would be curious to know if Jim Carroll has ever actually enforced the quality standards he advocates"
Depends what you mean by 'enforced' Jack.
We never ran singaround sessions, we had floor spots where singers put their names down to sing; at the Singers Club there were always plenty of these (surprisingly for such an unpopular club that was quite often full to overflowing).
Given the limited time, everybody who asked was given a spot. If they were obviously poor singers, that would be taken into consideration the next time they turned up; doesn't mean they weren't asked, but they weren't at the top of the list and if there were too many, they didn't sing.
The occurrence that started this argument was something different altogether.
We had a woman who regularly turned up who literally couldn't sing two notes that related - and she read her songs from a sheet of paper.
After the first hearing my reaction was not to ask her again until she had put in the work, which she obviouly hadn't at that point; other residents occasionally did. Over a year there was no sign of improvement whatever - tuneless readings. Those who asked her allowed her only one song. At the end of the year the committee received a written complaint that she wasn't given enough time and she should be allowed more.
I'm told that this was a one-off, but I have encounteres similar situations elsewhere, where the non-singer is encourages to sing. The time before last I visited a long-established club (not a singaround) in London I saw exactly the same situation with another singer.
Parallel with all the clubs I have been involved with we have run workshops, primarily for beginners; anybody who looks like they might want to sing were invited to join - it has never been a case of 'abandoning' a singer, but nor has it been one of encouraging people to practice in public - you owe that to your audiences, to those who have put in the work and to the music.
Don't forget, this argument first arose over the question of applying basic standards. For me the 'desire to sing' is not enough to encourage someone to stand in front of an audience and prove that they can't. For me, the clubs are the public face of our music and the future of it as a performed activity rather than a printed and recorded collection of texts and tunes will depend on how well it is performed and received.
Around here we have quite a number of public what they call 'song circles' basically singarounds, not necessarily traditional and the standard is variable.
I attend some of these regularly and have noticed that if a singer is particularly bad, and some are, the other people in the bar will ignore what is going on and begin to talk. If you have a number of bad singers, the talk will establish itself and eventually drown out the session altogether. I honestly don't know what I would do about that situation; for me these gatherings are as much social get-togethers where the singing isn't necessarily the main reason why people turn up. While I am happy that these social centres exist, it's not what I feel I want to do; probably why I have never involved myself in organising such sessions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

You've got to admire his staying power.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:47 AM

""Leave it, Don. Jim is an important figure in the folk revival. He and Pat have done some very valuable work. If it were not for that, I wouldn't have bothered with him.""

All very well Bryan but the day he shows me any respect, is the day I will stop hitting back.

He knows the square root of FA about me, what I think, how I operate, and how much respect I command from those with whom I interact in the real world.

Yet, from his high horse, he feels qualified to pontificate about the damage he feels I am doing to the music.

Earning respect requires somewhat more than barging in and telling everyone in sight they are doing it all wrong, and they must listen, because he is the expert.

For as many years as he has spent collecting the work of others, I have been out there, singing those songs, and facilitating the singing for others. I have booked dozens of wholly traditional first class acts, often making up any shortfall in takings out of my pocket.

In addition, I create songs, and whether they are good or bad is for others to judge, but I do get great responses from audiences of people who are traditionally oriented.

That is why I so bitterly resent the unfair, and unpleasant categorisation of what I do as rubbish.

Don T

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:12 AM

Thank you for that Bryan - for the record, I don't believe your club to be a bad one that adopts crass standards and I admire and am grateful for what you and your fellow organisers and enthusiasts have done and are still doing for folks song. I also am grateful for your communicating your knowledge of the present situation in the clubs, which has helped me fill in many of the gaps in my own experience.
Shit, now what are we going to fight about?
Also for the record:
"No need to reply to unfair dismissiveness in kind."
My last posting to Don(Wyziwyg)T was very much a rection to his bullying and aggression throughout our contact on this forum.
From the outset his postings directed at me have been ones of hostility and intimidation (don't take my word for this - read them through). His harranguing attitude has totally removed the possibility of reasonable discussion; his last being pretty much a repetition of the first, with all the ones in between delivered in a similar tone. I have been left with the distinct impression that, should Don and I have had this argument face-to-face (and should he have felt himself capable) I would have gone home with my teeth in my pocket, such is the violent tone of his postings.
I am quite aware of my own dogmatism and iritating persistence in pursuing what I believe to be important; I am also aware that I can be blunt to the point of rudeness on occasion, but I am not a bully who shouts people down and I resent others who do, especially when it is aimed at me.
These forums are for the exchange of ideas and experiences, sometimes delivered in friendly, agreeable terms, sometimes in heated argument. I have experienced great pleasure and gained not a little understanding through being part of Mudcat and I hope to continue to do so.
I don't believe I have been unfairly dismissive to anybody, but if I have, I apologise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM

Can we have a group hug now?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM

Oh for God s sake Jim...
Please define what is a good performance (On your terms, chapter and verse)
Do you know. If you ever heard me play concertina, I would take it as a compliment if you didn't approve.
I really would be flattered.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:40 AM

Clearly not then Ralphie!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:28 AM

Ralphie-
As far as singing, you start be being able to hold a tune and remembering the words well enough to communicate them to a degree that they can at least makes sense to the listener.
That's a good enough start as far as I'm concerned - you can only go up from there
As I'm sure you are aware (I certanly am from failed efforts to learn concertina and flute), there's a little more to it when it comes to instrumental music (anybody want to buy a Lachenal English concertina, btw).
What do you find in any way offensive or unreasonable about that?
Jim Carroll
PS Thank you for making my point so succinctly Don (cross posted)- you couldn't have timed it better.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

There is the rest of the world. Every developing country (a bad descriptive choice) has folk music.

The academic notion of a "traditional song" might be finished but whenever (as was mentioned above) there is tradition, there will be a traditional song.

What is finished is this idea that somehow some contemporary writer can pass his/her material off as traditional folkmusic.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM

"I don't believe I have been unfairly dismissive to anybody, but if I have, I apologise.""

Since every post I have made on this subject has been as a result of your initial unfair and dismissive lumping together of folk club organisers as "Anything Goes", and your continued unreasonable and arrogant responses to any argument against your entrenched disdain for people like myself.

You don't discuss, you pontificate. Every response from you is an affirmation of your belief that you are trying to communicate with well meaning idiots, and you speak of my "Hectoring" and Haranguing" tone. Must be like looking in a mirror.

In response to your entirely unnecessary comment ""I have been left with the distinct impression that, should Don and I have had this argument face-to-face (and should he have felt himself capable) I would have gone home with my teeth in my pocket, such is the violent tone of his postings."", you could not possibly be more wrong.

If I ever met you in real life, I would take you round to a dozen or more folk clubs, and destroy your argument entirely.

That, in my estimation, would do far more damage to your delusions of superiority, and infallibility, than a punch ever could.

Being the kind of person you are, I think it safe to assume that your above apology does not apply to me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: ruairiobroin
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

I've been away and what a row I have missed and MtheGM ,telling me it's sad that I think Folk must be vulgar. It must, If something is expressed   in the language spoken by the people generally,it is in the vernacular or vulgar. That is not a criticism nor is it sad

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 11:34 PM

On WNYC's Soundcheck today, there was a performer performing Little Musgrave and Lord Barnard's Wife. It was nice to hear a traditional ballad on the radio. His version, however, ended with the execution of Lady Barnard, did not have the verse on burying them and repeated the opening verse in place of the final verse.

Considering the betrayals, sex and violence in the song, I see no purpose in leaving the final verse out. His performance was quite good but, as mentioned, his ending detracted from a very good job.