BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

Now they have set up a group?? and are studying use of robots or whatever. They do not seem to move with the utmost speed. Which is fine if you are playing chess but not in a situation like this. Oh I forgot. Calm heads must prevail. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM

Its interesting to read the deailed speculative alternatives that might be used to clean up this mess. Some are clever, some are nuanced and some are elegant but huge.

I think in the final analysis they are going to go into fuck it mode.
Fuck it mode is just dumpings much concrete on the fucker even though the fucking poison will continue to fuck up the ocean forever.

They will brag about the tonnage of concrete used and compare it to the great pyramid and blah blah blah.


IF this had happened in a desert we would be better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM

U. S. is sending robotics and trained operators to attempt work in areas where radiation levels are dangerous. The remote-controlled machines have been used to conduct environmental cleanup, etc., in contaminated environments, although not on a compromised nuclear reactor.
In addition, the U. S. Energy department has sent 40 employees and 7710 kg of equipment to Japan.

Kyodo News says the Japanese government plans to spray a water-soluble resin over debris at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 plant to prevent radiation leaks from spreading further.

Industry minister Kaieda instructed nuclear plant operators to compile emergency safety measures to prevent radiation leaks in the event that their power and cooling devices fail.
Utilities, which operate 45 nuclear reactors nationwide excluding the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants, were instructed to compile a new safety manual and submit it to NISA by mid-April.
The Fukushima emergency developed because TEPCO could not immediately secure an alternative power source after the reactors cooling systems were disabled, or tap the huge amounts of water needed to cool spent fuel storage pools, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry said.
Kaieda- "I want plant operators to place power supply vehicles to secure electricity and firetrucks to provide water to spent fuel storage pools and reactors in times of emergency."
Drastic new safety measures, including instructing operators to place a reserve electric system to pump seawater, and build seawalls to protect against tsunami, are requested.

Meanwhile, experts from French atomic fuel company Areva are offering advice and assistance in removing contaminated water accumulations.
Areva is the processor of the MOX fuel used in the Daiichi No. 3 reactor, shipped there in 1999.

Most of the above from the Japan Times, Thursday, March 31.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM

IS the water soluable resin flammable or impervious to heat?
It just might work where there is no heat source.

Still this sounds like the infamous glue remedy.

Is your containment vessel cracked? IS you basement floor at risk of of being melted and radioactive water is pouring throught the hole?
WELL JUST USE WHACKY GLUE
its safe and fun to use.

But wait there's more...

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

Q-

Thanks for doing the follow-up on the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex. One nuclear complex going rogue is quite enough.

Gnu-

Are you talking about a report filed with the NRC by the Union of Concerned Scientists above?

One of the reasons I get pedantic and repeat all the names over and over again is that it's easy to get totally mixed up in a thread like this one.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12916688

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

Charley... yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

The link that Jim Martin provided above is on another report for the need to further expand the mandatory evacuation zone around the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. There is more and more evidence that the radiation readings out to 25 miles are more than twice than the "trigger" for defining the evacuation zone in and around Chernobyl. Here's a few more words on the topic from the Union of Concerned Scientists (emphasis added):

"The IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) is reporting that measured soil concentrations of Cs-137 as far away as Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of Fukushima-Dai-Ichi, correspond to deposition levels of up to 3.7 megabecquerels per square meter (MBq/sq. m). This is far higher than previous IAEA reports of values of Cs-137 deposition, and comparable to the total beta-gamma measurements reported previously by IAEA and mentioned on this blog.

This should be compared with the deposition level that triggered compulsory relocation in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident: the level set in 1990 by the Soviet Union was 1.48 MBq/sq. m."

Evidently the Union of Concerned Scientists has been primarily focusing their own energy on preparing and presenting testimony at an energy hearing in Washington, DC, this week.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

NHK...

The US military is sending Marines specialized in responding to nuclear emergencies to Japan to help deal with the trouble at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Japan's Self-Defense Force Joint Chief of Staff Ryoichi Oriki announced the measure on Thursday.

Oriki said US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has approved the sending of the 140-member Chemical Biological Incident Response Force.

The unit is trained in search-and-rescue operations and clearing highly radioactive nuclear materials.

Oriki said the unit will not necessarily take immediate action, and that the Self-Defense Forces hope to share information with them and study how it can be put into use when needed.

The US military has provided a barge capable of carrying large volumes of fresh water to keep reactors at the plant cool. It has also sent nuclear experts to Japan as part of efforts to resolve the crisis.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 19:36 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:51 AM

gnu-

So we'll have to add a verse to this saga about "sending in the marines."

Well, the Japanese certainly need all the help they can get.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:26 PM

Some of the improvised methods of dealing with this disaster clearly shows there was no thinking of how to deal with a nuclear breach scenario.

Plastic wrap and concrete?
Sounds like a Saran wrap and plaster cast.

Keep pumping water...
hose it down

Bring in the robots
As if they are going to remove tousands of tons of nuclear fuel.

Hey I wish the best to any and all efforts
but there is no going back to any form of normalcy in mid Japan's east coast. Not for the food chain, not for residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM

Sadly, old fears are resurfacing and refugees from the radiation affected zone are being shunned, even turned away from hospitals.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Good lord no!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

Sendai, the city of over one million in Fukushima Prefecture, now has restored water, gas and electricity to about two-thirds of the city. Some subway lines are open and the rest are still being checked for problems.
The Nissan plant at Iwate, Fukushima Prefecture, is about to reopen and hopes to be in full production by June (produces high end Fuga = Infiniti models.

The Japanese government has told the IAEA that it has no plans to expand the evacuation zone at this time.

Japan will return to full industrial production in June, according to government ministers. The concern at present seems to be that Tokyo and other city use of air-conditioning and other increased uses in the hot and humid summer will put too much of a demand on energy supply, and 'rolling' blackouts are likely.
(The available power directed to industry? No announcements about allocations yet.)

Plans for 16 new nuclear reactors are under consideration by the government, although there is a hold on construction at present. (Type??)

Although a government announcement has been made that Fukushima Daiichi will be closed, there is still comment around that reactors 5 and 6 will be reopened after the other reactors are under control.

The above from Japan Times, BBC, and CBC.
It looks like the Japanese government wants to put the Fukushima 'problem' into the 'controlled' category as soon as possible so that normal industrial production can resume.

The CNN has been running loudly with a story that the workers at the Fukushima Daiichi plant do not have sufficient protective clothing and that they are poorly fed, at times having only crackers and an energy supplement. No other 'news' source has carried this story.

It is evident that some workers were badly exposed to radiation in water on the floors. This seems due to negligence on the part of TEPCO and poor worker training. Possible dangers should have been metered.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

NHK reports, as investigations continue into the tsunami... one town was hit with 19.9m (52') waves. Now, that just seems unfair in some way. (Yes, I know that's a bit silly to say, but it's the way I feel.)

The footage of these investigations is humbling and also fascinating from an engieering point of view. The failure modes for a number of large buildings "well designed" for tsunamis was surprising to me at first glance. They fell toward the ocean. Most which withstood (stayed vertical although obviously sustaining major damage) the initial forces were toppled by the receding waters indicating that these buildings could structurally withstand cyclical impact loading of short duration but were susceptible to the following continuous loads in the opposite direction. Yes, there certaily would be a weakening factor due to loads but, empirically, I just wouldn't have clued into that failure mode if I had not seen the videos.

That's a very short and skimpy description which leaves out many variables... pathways of receding waters concentrated by drainage contours, debris concentration in similar fashion... many other considerations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/

They expect to die.

And those fools running the show that can't even get food to them and blankets...send a pack animal in if you have to or a kite or?? What is the problem here other than the kind of stupidity I would never have expected. Please do not let these stupid men and/or women ever run a nuclear facility again. Perhaps solar panels if that. Wind-up flashlights perhaps. Bicycle power hooked up to batteries. Modest windmills..not big ones that could tip over and hurt somebody. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

The ground water at and around the disaster site is contminated.

The Cesium 137 in the area of the 4 leaking reactors now stands at double what Chernobyl was releasing when it was decided to evacuate everyone within 50 miles.

By criteria I hold as important, this diaster is as bad or worse than Chenobyl and is still capable of massive explosions (not like Hiroshima) but even more deadly taken on a time scale of the killing ability of the radioactive debris for the next million years.
Even if the 1900 tons of stored fuel do not have a fission excurision, the deadly qualities of this metal will still last for a million years



THE BEST CASE SCENARIO
Is if we can devise a massive way of breaking the half lives of these metals all the way down to a mere 100 years. What has left the area is a lost cause, but a project to do something like speeding up the decay until it is no more lethal than slightly radioactive lead, would be a god send.

Projected deaths from cancers world wide would be cut down.

I stress that mneasuring who lives and who dies should be over a time scale that we never talk about, thousands of generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

I have high praise for the coverage of this disaster on npr, Rachel Maddow and for an alternative slant that is mostly 'relax radiation is as normal as sunshine and banana pie' kind of coverage on FOX.

When I look at the radiation monitors in the US that report Fukushima contaminants in the US, I was shocked that with the exception of the Carolinas and COlorado all the Red Sates report no Fukushima radiation while allt he blue states do! ????????????????????? I should link the map from last night

Its here in MD. Sure it is miniscule BUT when a COW injests radiation the contamination gets condensed/magnified by a factor of 700 TIMES by the time it is found in milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:23 PM

Today's transcript of the teleconference by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) with reporters has been posted.

There's a long discussion about whether there has already been a "criticality accident" and how that would impact the region. It's an interesting discussion on what would be an even more alarming phase of this disaster but the conclusion by UCS is there is not enough information to confirm such an accident and that they still think it would be unlikely given the general situation.

Here's what I decided to harvest; the first question clarifies a point I was trying to make yesterday with regard to dealing with huge volumes of radioactive salt water:

REPORTER: Good morning. I was wondering what options you think TEPCO might have in dealing with the contaminated water, to store it or move it somewhere. And if you don't want to speculate on their options, what are the difficulties in dealing with and storing that water? Thanks.

DR. LYMAN: Thanks for the question. I mean, it looks like the first difficulty is just not having tanks to hold it, the capacity to hold it. So, there was mention of bringing in, you know, seaborne tankers. I gather there's some issues there associated with them being able to dock. So, I'm not sure if that option is realistic.

But, you know, the question is doing it quickly. I mean, you know, in the long term, they certainly would be able to manage that water. You could evaporate -- I mean, reprocessing plants that manage highly radioactive solutions are able to evaporate the water and just concentrate the radioactive isotopes, but you need special, you know, equipment to be able to do that. There's filtration, but as I said before and I also heard the Japanese confirming, that when you have such high levels of radioactive materials, it could challenge conventional filtration methods, so you would need more sophisticated techniques. But over time, you know, assuming the situation is stabilized and they were able to get at least the physical capacity to store the liquids, then they would just be left with potentially a high-level radioactive waste problem, you know, like the U.S. has in spades with liquid waste left over from defense production. But, again, they just need tanks.

(SNIP!)

This question focuses on the end-game, full decomissioning of the nuclear complex:

REPORTER: I have one follow-up.
It seems like the Reactors 1, 2 and Number 4 has to be abandoned, so what kind of steps do they have to take, you know, to successfully abandon those reactors?

DR. LYMAN: Well, I believe -- I mean, first they are going to have to achieve cold shutdown, meaning you reach a stable state where you're getting enough water to the core that the temperature remains low, well below boiling, and you have a stable supply of water to achieve that, and that will have to be achieved for the cores in the spent fuel pools.

I don't believe, you know, talk of, you know, dumping concrete over the entire site or something is plausible without first stabilizing the fuel, because, you know, you can end up with a potentially unstable situation under -- what you're burying doesn't make sense to me. So, I think it will have to proceed according to, you know, established principles of decommissioning once the fuel and the spent fuel is stabilized.
It might take years, but eventually, they will have to inspect the damage and then determine how that fuel can be removed and stored safely. I don't think just leaving it in situ there is a good solution.

So, in the case of Three Mile Island in the United States, it took several years before they even accessed the core. They determined the damage, they packaged it, and they eventually shipped it to a burial site out west.

So, you know, once the material is stabilized, then you can start worrying about how to deal with the other structures, many of which are contaminated and will probably be at least low-level waste. But you're talking about a potentially pretty long process before the site can be finally decommissioned.

And then you have to deal with the contamination of the soil. There's already been some plutonium detected. There's probably more that will be an additional expense and hazard for cleanup crews.

(SNIP!)

This question seeks to compare Chernobyl's impact with the expected impact from the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

REPORTER: Just a follow-up question to that.
Is Chernobyl really an apt comparison given that that was an actual explosion and that, so far anyway, that Fukushima has not blown up to that extent?

DR. LYMAN: Well, the impact of that is that the releases from Chernobyl are -- actually, there were greater concentrations further away from the site because of the height of the plume. The explosion caused mechanical damage to some fuel, which changed the characteristics of what's called the source term or the type of isotopes that were seen and released, but independent estimates are showing that there's already been a significant or a fraction of the amount of cesium that was released at Chernobyl already at Fukushima, and to the extent that you don't have a hot, long, graphite fire that's wafting it higher into the area, that would lead to more concentrated deposition closer to the plant.

So, I think when all is said and done, you know, they're going to find there are areas within the current exclusion zones that I would expect to be a pretty big concern.

###

Enough to digest for now, especially so close to dinner.

But the entire transcript has a wealth of information.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM

That statement reagrding a comparison to Chernobyl is a strong indication thatt he diasater has moved from a level 6 to a level 7.

You're noble as always Charlie.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:45 PM

Officials at Japan's nuclear safety agency said radiation in the latest sampling from the ocean near the Fukushima plant's discharge pipes was at 4,385 times the legal limit. That compares to the previous high of 3,355 times the legal limit, registered a day earlier.


Or in other words after a day on the beach there you would be burned, virtually boiled and dead.

Note: you would not be allowed to be buried in any conventional grave yards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:56 PM

Chernobyl had a graphite fire that was extinguished after a week

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM

Mankind at large or just the people you know, will only make large changes in their lives when confronted by crises.

What constitutes a crises is a devestating event or catastrophe.

After the Japan Meltdowns, it is crucially important that the industry spokes people shall not get away with business as usual.

Toning down the tragic permanent harful events now and for millions of years to come, with rhetoric that calls opponents of nuclear power chicken littles or hysterical ignoramuses, must be shouted down and the spokes people condemned for their heinous lies.

Losing the moment that can realisticly stop the next dozen or more disasters must not be allowed to slip through our fingers.


When you here rhetoric such as once in a 17,000 year probability, call the perpetrator of that remark immediately. We have proof of two 17,000 year accients within 3 days of each other.

When comparisons of radioactivity to TVs and bananas and healthy sunshine are heard, make it cleart we are speaking of fetal mutation and life crippling cancers and food that makes you sick kind of radiation.

When the lie "No one has ever been killed by a nuclear power plant", simply call them a liar to their face. You do not need to list each individual or each case of disaese, calling them a liar for what ever reason they have chosen to lie, is all that need be said.


The liars for nuclear energy who go over the top on a regular basis for the private corporate owners come in the form of self proclaimed independant interest groups and self declared scientists. They have their astro turf websites and fake pictures on their site.
They are the pied pipers of continual death and horrible disfigurment and mutation.
Do what ever you can to help them change.

This is a crises, this is a disaster, this is a critical time in which the death peddlers will tell all manner of lies to preserve their former way of life. Well not at the expense of our food, our lives and the future of all children and all species on Earth.

The lasting effects of this showdown has the importence of lasting a million years, even if it is then buried under 12 meters of crust or silt by that time.


You have seen media regularly call any person who has seen a very unusual event or refer to a ufo as having lost their marbles. Do not allow the facts of nuclear disasters and near disasters to be cast as fiction by cowardly kooks.

Do not let this event get swift boated, global warming hoaxed, without the strongest rehetorical response. I am not saying proponents of nuclar power are like Randy Newman's 'short people who have no reason to live'. I am just saying that corporate nuclear proponents are helping decisions to be made that render your life having no reason to continue without cancer, child mutation, sterility, conception problems and horrible disfigurment which I know first hand due to the radiactive Iodine poisoning of my half sister Carol Ann Siddens.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:53 PM

Engineers are suggesting that dismantling the Daiichi complex and decontaminating the site may take 30 years and cost more than 1 trillion yen. Three Mile Island took 12 years before the core was isolated after the burial and sent out west--


Minister Edano hasn't ruled out pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down.
Dumping concrete on the plant would serve a second purpose: it would trap contaminated water, said Tony Roulstone, an atomic engineer who directs the nuclear energy program at Cambridge University.
(NOTE: Compare with statement by Dr. Lyman, post by Charley: Experts differ on feasibility).

Prime Minister Kan is looking to split NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Industry) from METI (Ministry of Economic Trade and Industry) because of the conflict of interest.
(Note: Sound familiar? A similar conflict within our government with regard to the Gulf Oil disaster).

Kan said he is considering a fundamental change in energy policy, which at present feature plans to add 14 more reactors to the 54 in operation before March 11.

A few weeks ago, I saw a program on rice farmers who had developed a way of life over many generations. Adjacent to the rice fields, farmers had built their individual homes, protected from winds by tree plantings, which also included fruit trees and space for a few animals, and with space for vegetable gardens. Over the years, a stable, comportable lifestyle was established, providing the family with their needs.
Last night on NHK Japan, family farms in the Tohoku area were discussed. The people have had to leave and their produce and animals have been contaminated.
Sad to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:56 PM

Forgot to note- the comments about government plans and concrete burial from the Japan Times for Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM

Q-

I certainly feel for the farmers and their livestock.

But it's very disturbing to see comments like this:

"pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down"

I can see the appeal of this approach, in the short run covering up a multitude of blunders. But it's not a long term solution and they would not learn the details of this disaster which could prove so important for averting similar disasters. And it really wouldn't work in the long run anyway because they'd end up having to deal with it again in ten years or so when the concrete containment began to deteriorate.

It's far better to continue to try to stabilize reactor units 1-3 and spent fuel pool 4 for 5 years or so and then proceed to decommission the entire complex in a normal fashion, step by step.

There are no shortcuts in dealing with high-level nuclear waste, as the Russians and Ukrainians have discovered with Chernobyl; they're currently entombing the original tomb in traditional Russian fashion (figurine inside of figurine inside of figurine).

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:03 PM

NHK...

The International Atomic Energy Agency says radiation levels twice as high as its criterion for evacuation were detected in a village 40 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

This is outside the 20 kilometer exclusion zone and the 20-to-30 kilometer alert zone where the Japanese government advises voluntary evacuation.

The nuclear watchdog reported the findings at a meeting of its members in Vienna on Wednesday.

The IAEA said its experts measured levels of Iodine 131 and Cesium 137 in soil around the plant between March 18th and 26th.

It said measurements in Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of the Fukushima plant, was double the IAEA operational criteria for evacuation and that it has advised Japan to carefully assess the situation.

In Tokyo on Thursday, Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters that the government has been notified by the IAEA of its radiation findings.

Edano said the reported radiation levels in Iitate will not have an immediate impact on human health but could be harmful if exposed over a long period of time. He said the government will closely assess the long-term impact and take appropriate action.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 13:29 +0900 (JST)

I gotta go to bed... I am sure many in Japan would like to be able to sleep tonight... sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM

they will take appropriate action when it is too late to resettle the people, when other communities will fear them. they are a most incapable government. and then they talk about how the electric company did not plan well..who gave them permits? who allowed this? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM

Guidlines to assault the Nuclear Industry for their assault on you and the Earth

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:13 AM

Who can write a formula or make a graph chart to calculate the half lives of Iodine and Cesium isotopes, taking into account the number of days, the range of normal to 100 thousand time above normal, the concentration of a specific radioactivity by cows in milk (700 times) what about cheese?, leaf veggies, root veggies, apples etc

Maybe a slide rule is the tool for this but I am thinking about a simple to use functioning calculator for people to calculate particular exposure in foods, air water and over time.

The EPA monitoring stations and accureate info from Japan is essential.

Do you think this would be of any value for parents or are there just too many variables to calculate anything meaningful?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM

Contaminated water now 15m below surface:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12930949

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:33 AM

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.

No. That smoke is carbon soot. There can't be enough carbon on the Fukushima site to keep a fire going that long.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM

Jack-

I agree with you on that.

However, there will be over the years further distribution by prevailing winds of radioactive dust deposited on trees, soil, and structures. It's simply not feasible to clean up large areas downwind of the plant complex, as they've discovered around Chernobyl.

RANT ALERT!!!

I am continually irritated by the assumption by media reporters and some governmental or utility officials that radioactive isotopes are "harmless" after reaching their half-life. No, the isotopes in question haven't returned to background by that time; their radioactivity content has been reduced to half and they are still dangerous for 10 to 20 more intervals.
What does this mean for Iodine-131?

It's half-life is about 10 days.

After 10 days it retains half its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains a quarter of its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains an eight of its radioactivity.

Etc.

With cesium-137, the major difference is that we're concerned about a half-life of about 30 years. The concept is the same and it can be deadly for at least 300 years.

People prefer not to even consider the heavier radioactive isotopes whose half-life extends to thousands and thousands of years. Why consider the inconceivable? Cover it up with concrete, all smooth and beautiful!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM

Stock in Toshiba, which built 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi comples reactors, has dropped 17 per cent. Hitachi, which built no. 4, has dropped 12 per cent. Tepco, down 78% may be bailed out and taken over by the government, which says it hasn't ruled out taking a stake in the company.
An analyst at Sanford Bernstein says the disaster likely will be a boon for Areva SA of France and Dongfang of China as buyers of atomic reactors move out of the Japanese market.
Toshiba was working on selling 39 reactors by 2015 and Hitachi hoped for 38 sales by 2030.
Sat., Apr. 2, Bloomberg report in Japan Times.

Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, says the government is considering lifting the ban on shipments of vegetables and raw milk from near the Fukushima plant if they prove free of radioactive contamination in three consecutive tests- senior vice farm minister Tsutsui.
The ban would be lifted on a regional rather than prefectural basis.

Some 170,000 people are at temporary evacuation centers.
Several prefectures have announced they will accept the refugees in their area. It is hoped that they will move in groups, so they may maintain communities in the new environment.
(Much of the resettlement depends on the prefectures, which have control over the matter. Editorial in Japan Times, Apr. 2.)
"It is hoped that local governments that accept evacuees will make adequate preparations such as offering emplloyment and providing public services including education......"

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM

News yesterday that the workers didn't even have dosimeters. How much would a dosimeter cost? They lost them in the earthquake and tsunami, but how long would it take to get them from Korea or US? Post haste. I can not believe it would take over 20 days to get workers in this situation dosimeters, except by looking at other of their inept responses I guess I can believe it. Has anyone heard if workers are getting decent food, water and bedding? Yet. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM

Reading the daily press briefings from UCS is sobering, to say the least. When these guys talk about this or that incident/accident (explosions) that I have never heard of, it truly is a WTF moment for me. And, dumping of nuclear waste into a lake???... "One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

There have been no reports about inadequate food in any Japanese sources, only American and UK reports. Working conditions are difficult and it is impossible to provide a midday meal. Dinner cossists of rice with canned chicken, fish or curry. The type of high calorie "crackers" for breakfast has not been reported, they are accompanied by a carton of vegetable juice.
A Japanese nuclear official said conditions were grueling, with no facilities in the plant. It sound much like field conditions for military units under fire.

A shortage of dosimeters was reported, saying that for a time only the crew leaders had them. This lack was corrected when a shipment was received.

From the reports, it is impossible to accurately assess the exposure received by the workers; some shifts are as short as 10 minutes, but even this could be unsafe. The conditions at Chernoble come to mind, and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM

If this is an organization that can not provide food and blankets under hazardous conditions, and it can not provide readily available (I presume) instruments, how can they possibly be able to orchestrate the nuclear disaster, that affects not just Japan but certainly the region. It impacts foreign relations, the economy etc. as well as health.

I expect there is a culture of bowing to big companies there. They are not long out of a feudal situation. I think information is not going to freely dispersed, as reporters and TV stations etc. are probably in ways beholden to whatever entity is in charge. So it is going to come from other sources.

And what exactly is the problem with getting food in? People are going in and out it seems. There are firetrucks and cement trucks around the area. Could a firetruck send one of its basket ladders up to a window? Can they not open windows?

I don't care if they have to train hummingbirds to carry one leaf of contaminated spinach at a time to them. Get them some food. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:10 PM

Radiation comes from particles of ionizing isotpes of regular atoms.

U 235 has a half life of nearly the life of the universe.
Plutonium is way into the many tens of thousands of years.

Yep Iodine Cesium and other by products of HOT U 235 -8
Are short lived in comparison.

Iodine does not lose all its radioactivity for years.
But its half life is indeed 10 days. At its peak it can be devestating if injested. Horribly devestating.

poo pooing the hazared is in no ones best interest, unless you are afraid the truth will send people to suicide or hysterical break downs...which ain't likely

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

Q-

"and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island"

There was general public concern about the plume from Three Mile Island as it spread up the Eastern seaboard but the readings were relatively low. Even in the immediate plant area, it's been difficult to sort out the regional impact, the higher than expected cancers, spontaneous abortions, and mutations. The incidence rates were very low and readily debated by statisticians without resolution. That's the good news. I expect this will not be the case in Japan.

I don't remember any excessive radiation exposures for the plant workers, and we were certainly expecting them at the time and would have made use of them in our "educational fact sheets." It's a good question for anyone who has access to long term health studies of those plant workers.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM

Well, I just reviewed the new photos of the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in its current state as annotated and posted by the Union of Concerned Scientists. Take a look at the damage if you are curious and are prepared to see some shocking damage: Click here for PIXS!

There's also a link there for an earlier set of photos.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

I think one thing that should be learned from this is that governments and big businesses can be terribly inept when it comes to emergencies. So-called contingency planning allows for whet we think may happen, but few plan for the worst things that can happen because to say they've done that implies some things may be beyond their control, and it's kinda hard to sell the notion of "hey, we've considered this and guess what, we're fucked if the worst happens" to stock holders. The zaibatsu doesn't care.

The Japanese have been downright stupid in the way this has gone down. Lying bastards. The Japanese people will pay a heavy price for this, and no doubt a few heads will roll. Tomorrow, it will be SSDD, and little will change. We face a similar problem here in North America. BUT, we allow it to happen by buying into the BS that gets shoveled into our maws by TV, radio and so-called leaders, most of whom I perceive to be ass kissers for the ruling classes--read big business. They can always get more people to do their dirty work.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM

It should be understood that the workmen carry in food and whatever else cannot be found on site. There are no caterers, no beds where they are working- much of the buildings are destroyed. Perhaps mg will volunteer to bring in beds and tempura.

Even if food-bed provisions had been made in the reactor buildings, the pictures linked by Charley (and shown online by Japan Times, etc.), show that they probably were blasted by the hydrogen explosions.

Except for the first day, the firetruck(s) are not manned after positioning, but have a mobile supply tank attached which is serviced, as discussed (online diagram may have disappeared by now) somewhere above.

Undoubtedly post-mortems on the reactor complex will show that design was faulty, and operator and government agency could have done more to prevent the destruction, but now that is hindsight.

Should people have been permitted to settle, farm, or have businesses in the fertile, lowlands of Tohoku? Some 20,000 dead. Very little recrimination about this aspect of the disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

I did not ask why food and beds were not provisioned ahead of time, although some should have been. If the workers are going in and out, then there should not be a problem getting food and blankets in. Certainly when the fate of a nation depends on 600 people, the country would want them fed, and fed well, with Kobe beef if that is what they needed to keep up their stamina. It sounds to me like they were almost locked into the building though and were not leaving. You could have a shielded vehicle and drive to the door if they are opening doors. I personally can not think of a reason not to feed these men and/or women properly, and that includes the executives making them some nice delicious meals that they bring in themselves or program a robot to or whatever. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM

One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake.

It wasn't systematic, it was a catastrophic accident much like Fukushima.

Kyshtym seems to have been the second worst nuclear accident ever (so far), as measured by the amount of radiation released. The radiation levels on the shores of Lake Chelyabinsk are still so high (fifty years later) that in places you can get a lethal dose of radiation in less than an hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster

This point is rather telling:

the CIA knew of the 1957 Mayak accident all along, but kept it secret to prevent adverse consequences for the fledgling American nuclear industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:07 PM

Jack-

Thanks for the link to the 1957 Mayak disaster. I knew there were reasons I wanted to forget the details.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12945525

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Jim-

Your link provides a good update of the status of reactor units 1-4; it's estimated that 70% of the fuel melted down in one reactor and 30% in another.

It also refers to identifying an "8-inch crack" in the containment (pressure suppression chamber?) underneath the primary reactor containment of Unit 2, the evident source of highly radioactive water escaping into the environment. The utility workers are trying to devise a plan for plugging the crack with concrete, not an easy location to gain access to.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

Here's a Friday, April 1, update from the Nuclear Information Resource Service (NIRS) on the status of the spent fuel pool in Unit 4 at the Fukushima-1 Nuclear Complex:

"UPDATE, 11:30 am, Friday, April 1, 2011. New video shows that Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water. "

Unfortunately their link to the video with narration doesn't work for me. I work from a MAC platform using Safari. Anyone else have better luck? Here's the general link to NIRS: click here for report!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

"... Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water."

Can the fuel in the empty pool melt down and breech the bottom of the pool? If so, there's a lot of stuff under the pool that can burn isn't there?