BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:36 PM

I have stated,I do condemn selling weapons to despotic regimes.

Start a thread "I hate Britain and everything British" and I will discuss this stuff with you.
Leave this thread alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 02:20 AM

We should also have another thread about Israel now that you acknowledge it is surrounded by "repressive regimes" to whom no-one should supply even crowd control equipment, never mind weapons.
You will want to congratulate Israel for confronting and resisting them for so many years.

You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza,as it has stopped those "dictatorships" from supplying arms and explosives to the most "repressive regime" of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 03:45 AM

"Start a thread "I hate Britain and everything British""
You cannot start a thread deploring despots slaughtering protesters and expect not to be faced with the fact that the part Britain has played in that slaughter by supplying those despots with the wherewithal to carry out some of that slaughter
It was you who pointed out that the weapons supplied by Britain to Syria were sniper rifles "but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles" - you have eye witness descriptions of what those sniper rifles are doing to people - you appear to have painted yourself into a corner.
"You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza"
No I won't - I am referring to 'The Arab Spring' - which is exactly what the "Homs horror" is about - why the hell should I talk about land disputes?
THREAD DRIFT
You are right about one thing though
I do hate - I hate feudal dictators who enslave their people and slaughter them when they get out of hand - I hate governments who leech off that despotism by selling weapons to those dictators, and I hate the mealy-mouthed apologists who refuse to condemn them for doing so, and who, having opened a thread on the slaughter that is taking place using weapons sold to those dictators, then desperately try to steer the discussion away from exactly who is supplying those weapons.
Take your double-standards elsewhere and don't you dare try to stop me from posting to a public forum - that would be dictatorship!!
And still no condemnation of selling arms to Gadaffi - but then again, why should there be - from you anyway?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:11 AM

But Jim, you did not object to anyone trading anything with all those "despotic regimes", "repressive regimes" and "dictatorships" when you were supporting them all against Israel.

And now, should the repressive dictatorship in Gaza be supplied with weapons, or blockaded Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:47 AM

I HAVE NEVER SUPPORTED DESPOTIC REGIMES - I HAVE OBJECTED TO TERRORIST STATES SLAUGHTERING CIVLIANS - OBVIOUSLY NOT AN ISSUE WITH YOU AS LONG AS THEY BOUGHT THEIR WEAPONS FROM BRITAIN
Stop squirming and address the question "are you really claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:55 AM

In my opinion it is not Jim.
I just object to you singling out Britain for attack and ignoring all the far worse offenders.
It is another example of your prejudice.
I also object that you have hijacked a thread about atrocities committed by the regime in Syria, and converting it into a political debate about the arms industries.

Now, is it right to allow armaments to reach the appalling regime in Gaza Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 06:01 AM

No Keith - I am not singling out Britain - I have said all countries who deal in death by selling weapons to despots are as bad as one another - "they are all criminals and no better than one another"
These "atrocities committed by the regime in Syria," are being committed with weapons sold to Syria by Britain (you pointed that out yourself) that is not "hi-jacking the thread it is part of the "Homs horror" - why aren't sniper rifles a part of that "horror" or do only Russian and Chinese weapons count.
You have been shown what damage is being done to civilians by these weapons yet you have not uttered one word of condemnation on their being supplied by our government - and you still have not commented on the sale of weapons to Gadaffi.
You continue to whinge about "thread drift" (having denied you ever did such a thing) yet now we have "is it right to allow armaments to reach the appalling regime in Gaza Jim?" - is that part of the "Homs horror" too?
Why not open a new thread to debate it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

No Keith - I am not singling out Britain - I have said all countries who deal in death by selling weapons to despots are as bad as one another

In your posts you have mentioned Syria 8 times, Russia 5 times, China 4 times and Britain/UK 55 times!

The figures show clearly your prejudice in singling Britain out although the least offender.

You have firmly refused to stop hijacking this thread into a debate about arms supplies, so should armaments be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza??

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM

"Britain/UK 55 times!"
Because you continue to defend or refuse to condemn the selling of arms by Britain to dictators - my condemnation of the trade was made earlier and included all of them "It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another" - yours have only attacked Russia and China - and that continues to be the case - YOU CONTINUE TO DEFEND THE SALE OF ARMS TO EITHER GADAFFI OR ASSAD BY BRITAIN WITH YOUR SILENCE
I have never defended the behaviour of Libya or Syria they are/were ruled by despotic thugs BOTH PROPPED UP BY BRITISH ARMS SALES
You have made your position quite clear on the sales of arms to thuggish despots by Britain and have had ample chance to condemn and explain the morality of it - you have declined to do so, so I think it's time we passed the subject back to others.
I think there has been enough bloodletting on this thread - or - in your own words on a former thread "my job is done here" Yi, ho Silver
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:21 AM

Jim, "are you really claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?"

My reply, In my opinion it is not Jim.

Jim, Because you continue to defend or refuse to condemn the selling of arms by Britain to dictators
No I do not, but if we must discuss arms sales to repressive, despotic dictatorships, should arms be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:32 AM

Sale of arms to Assad's regime in Syria is from what I can gather 100% Russian, but suppliers are listed as:
- Russia
- Belarus
- Iran
- China
- North Korea

No mention of Britain or the USA.

The Syrian Army:
80% of the officers are Alawites (same tribe as Assad)
70% of the regular soldiers are Alawites (same tribe as Assad)
The military's most elite divisions, the Republican Guard and the 4th Mechanized Division, which are commanded by Bashar's brother, are exclusively Alawite.
Alawites make up just 12% of the Syrian population

The regime is Ba'athist (i.e modelled on the German Nazi Party mixed in with a bit a Stalinist repression)

Now does that remind of anywhere else in the region?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:34 AM

"No I do not,"
Then what the **** is this about - here you are suggesting that it is acceptable to supply Syria's security forces with water cannons and tear gas to suppress the revolt - fuck you and your dictator buddies Keith
"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies."
"should arms be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza? "
You are the one who permanently whinges about thread drift - open a thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:57 AM

Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, riot shields and bomb-resitant busses to take police to a riot are not military weapons even though Jim Carroll may call them that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 01:03 PM

"Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, riot shields and bomb-resitant busses to take police to a riot are not military weapons even though Jim Carroll may call them that. "
Spilitting hairs, it is being suggested here that they be sold to Syria in order to suppress the protests there are you agreeing with him?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 01:40 PM

No it is not.
You know this but it does not suit your agenda to admit it.

All decent people are horrified by the daily atrocities in Syria, but you just use it as a platform to indulge in your hate filled rants against Britain.

Start another thread Jim.
And when you do, tell us why you support that appalling regime in Gaza that uses live rounds to kill its own demonstrators and fires ball bearing packed missiles at the homes of ordinary people and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 02:27 PM

"No it is not."
Yes it is when they are used to quell demonstration - once again you are attempting to downgrade weapons as you did white phosphorus, and you have done here with 'harmless' sniper rifles (you still haven't commented on the morality of supplying such weapons to a murderous regime to suppress pro-democracy demonstrations.
"And when you do, tell us why you support that appalling regime in Gaza "
Where have I ever supported "that appalling regime in Gaza "
I have opposed the slaughter of civilians - you on the other hand have supported the terrorist state of Israel BASED ONLY ON THEIR
DENIALS
And now you are suggesting it would be acceptable to sell riot control gear to regime that has slaughtered thousands of protesters (or is that a "leftie lie".)   You are the only one hear to support state repression and you now continue to do so - in your own words "If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies" - a real role model for democracy Keith.
Racist, anti-democratic mouthpiece of terroist states - you are an extreme right-wing mess.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 03:21 PM

You put "harmless" in quotes as if I had actually said it, referring to a lethal weapon.
To what point Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:24 AM

Keith
A quick survey of where you have gone here
You open a thread quite rightly deploring the sale of weapons to a despotic dictator during one of the 'Arab Spring' revolts - so far, so good.
When it is pointed out to you that Britain also sold weapons to that dictator, this time to be used on civilians - you squeal "thread drift"
When the horrific consequences of the weapons sold by Britain are pointed out, you attempt to suggest that the weapons Britain sold were somehow harmless or unimportant and refuse to debate it.
When it was pointed out to that Britain also sold weapons to another despotic dictator, this time in Libya, you again squeal "thread drift" and refuse to debate the morality of selling weapons to such people.
You consistently refuse to condemn or even debate the morality of Britain selling weapons to dictators, squealing "anti British" and "thread drift"
When it is pointed out that you have proposed that selling riot control weapons to a despotic dictator so he can use them on protesters demonstrating against his despotism, you then attempt to use the same thread drift you have consistently whined about, here and on other threads to steer the discussion back into your comfort zone.
You continue to use "thread drift" (this time to a land dispute between Israel and Palestine) in a desperate attempt to steer the discussion away from the fact that Britain (the world's third greatest arms trader - along with the US and China) has consistently sold weapons to dictators and despots all over the world, which includes such bastions of democracy as Jordan, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Oman and Bahrain - all possible targets for future 'Arab Springs' (oh- and Egypt, already having fallen to 'Arab Spring' demonstrators).
I wonder what fantastic journeys we could steer this thread to if, for instance, I told you that IN 1975 - AT THE HEIGHT OF THE BRUTALITY OF THE APARTHEID SYSTEM, ISRAEL ATTEMTED TO SELL THE SOUTH AFRICA REGIME NUCLEAR WARHEADS
I suggest that you quit when you are only this far behind, take you flag-wagging. Litttle Britan hypocracy, your open suppost for despotic dictators, your revolting double standard attitude to the arms trade and your racism, and shove them as far from the sunlight as they will go.
Yours as ever,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 03:11 AM

No Jim.
This is what I said in the OP.

I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.

First point, the Syrian government who are committing atrocities and massacres.
You ignored that, hardly referring to Syria but raging extensively about Britain.

Second point, the support of Russia and China, who vetoed what britain and others tried to do.
You ignored that too.

Final point, the supply of HEAVY WEAPONS being used to commit the massacres.
Because Britain does not supply them, you refused to talk about them.
You just went on and on about non-lethal crowd control kit even though no-one was arguing with you.

Your were not interested in the suffering of the Syrian people at all.
You just used it as another opportunity to vent your obsessed hatred of britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM

your open suppost for despotic dictators,
Blatant lie Jim.

The arms trade is a complex issue requiring a different thread.
Countries like Saudi are ripe for plunder and have powerful, aggressive and heavily armed neighbours.
This thread is not the place for that debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM

So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population (along with tear gas of course).
You will not withdraw, or even refer to your suggestion that riot control gear should be sold to a regime that has slaughtered thousands of its citizens.
You will not comment on the sale of weapons to other Middle Eastern despots - including Libya and Egypt).
You will not comment on Israel trying to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa (at the time of the Soweto massacre)
You will not, in fact go into the obsenity of arms sales in any shape or form.
Now why am I not surprised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:47 PM

In a perfect world there would be no repressive regimes.
In the real world it is the lesser of evils if they use non-lethal crowd control.
A sniper rifle is a highly discriminating weapon.
Like an axe or a sword.
A kalashnikov is much more effective for indiscriminate slaughter, but any weapon can be used against the defenceless.
I deplore the misuse of any and all weapons against civilians.
I hope Teribus is right, as he usually is, that Britain supplied no weapons at all to Syria.

All those regimes, plus Hamas in Gaza, have been excoriated by me in debates about Israel.
In those same debates, you argued against me, supporting them.
Even here you refuse to state that Hamas should not be supplied weaponry.

Please allow this thread to be about the horror in Syria, and the suffering of the Syrian people.
Start another thread about the international arms trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:54 PM

So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain
Britain has supplied no weapons to Syria.
Teribus was right.
You claim Britain has supplied small arms ammunition.
It can be obtained much cheaper from China, Russia, India, etc. so I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:13 PM

The other thing that Jim also forgets to differentiate between

Any private citizen in Britain who sells something to "X" who "Jim" has taken an aversion to and it is "Britain" (i.e. the Government who has sold whatever it is) total rubbish of course. But when it comes to Tanks, heavy artillery, armoured cars, aircraft and missiles, well they are not sold by private individuals they are sold by Governments in Syria's case mostly Russia, China and North Korea - Not a peep out of "Jim".

And if you are waiting for him to condemn Iran for flooding South Lebanon with 50,000 odd missiles in defiance of the UN Ceasefire or weapons into Gaza then don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:16 AM

Jim Carroll, you hijacked this thread with your demented, unceasing accusations against Britain.
You have shown no concern at all for the suffering of ordinary Syrians.
You only care about suffering if there is some way you can blame Israel, US, or UK.
You could have just stayed off the thread, but you turned it into a tirade against Britain who bears no responsibility at all, while ignoring those actually responsible for all of it.

You have revealed much about yourself on this thread.
Now take your deranged and obsessed vendetta away from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

"Britain has supplied no weapons to Syria."
From the 'notoriously left-wing Daily Mail':
The 'dirty secret' of British arms sales to Libya just months before Gaddafi slaughtered pro-democracy protesters
.....Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html#ixzz1mRWHS8OT
What a heap of shit you people (sic) are - on the one hand whingeing on consistently about thread drift, then when the going gets tough, trying to take a detour into Lebanon.
You have proposed selling riot control gear to a dictator who is still in the process of slaughtering thousands of civilians,
You have described opposition to the selling of weapons to a brutal murderous regime as Britophobia.
You have been given the description of the horrific use of weapons on the civilian population (not even combatants - just ordinary citizens going about their business) and you refuse even to comment on it, let alone condemn it - ergo, you support it with your silence.
There is horror in Homs at present - its people are being slaughtered by a despotic thug - with weapons sold to him by Russia, China and Britain - the latter being supported here by a Laurel and Hardy pair of flag waggers.
Go take a cold shower - the pair of you.
"You have revealed much about yourself on this thread."
I certainly think at least one of us has.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

This thread is about real suffering.
That of the Syrian people, at the hands of a brutal regime supported by Russia and China.
All you can contribute is a rant against Britain, WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!

Even the The Daily Mail, your only source of evidence (!) does not say Britain supplied anything.
"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition.
No reason not to "approve" that. No-one would buy it when China sells it cheaper.

If you do not care about Assad's victims, stay away like most of your Lefty friends.
Take your deranged vendetta against Britain somewhere else.
Start a thread about arms sales if you must, but leave this thread alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 06:50 AM

"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition."
I doesn't mastter if it's approved or not - it has been sold to a state which is massacring its own people.
The fact that it is "approved" only serves to underline the obscenity of an arms trade in which Britain is third in the league.
The subject of "arms sales" was in your original posting - at the present times it is small arms that are being used against the people of Homs - are you really suggesting that it is "thread drift" to point this out.
As for my not caring about Assad's victims - it is you who has suggested he be sold riot control gear,and it is you who has consistently refused to comment on the sale of ammunitionion to him.
Oh, and thanks for the perfect example of how you use "thread drift"
as a way of digging yourself out of a hole of your owm making
Now sit down - head between the knees - deep breaths - relax.
Pip-pip.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 07:23 AM

Jim, read this slowly.

BRITAIN HAS NOT SOLD ARMS OR AMMO TO SYRIA.

YOUR WHOLE CONTRIBUTION TO THIS THREAD IS BASED ON A LIE.

BRITAIN IS BLAMELESS IN THE HORROR OF SYRIA.

BRITAIN WAS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS IN SECURITY COUNCIL WHO TRIED TO STOP IT.

RUSSIA AND CHINA VETOED THAT, AND IT IS THEIR SUPPLIES DOING THE KILLING, NOT BRITAIN'S.

Now read it again JIm, and hide away in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:20 AM

"BRITAIN HAS NOT SOLD ARMS OR AMMO TO SYRIA."
".....Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."
YES IT HAS KEITH
"YOUR WHOLE CONTRIBUTION TO THIS THREAD IS BASED ON A LIE. BRITAIN IS BLAMELESS IN THE HORROR OF SYRIA."
NO IT ISN'T - ON BOTH COUNTS
"BRITAIN WAS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS IN SECURITY COUNCIL WHO TRIED TO STOP IT."
HAVING ALREADY SOLD ARMS TO SYRIA WHICH ARE NOW BEING USED ON THE STREETS OF HOMS TO KILL CIVILIANS - SEE ABOVE CNN REPORT
"RUSSIA AND CHINA VETOED THAT, AND IT IS THEIR SUPPLIES DOING THE KILLING, NOT BRITAIN'S."
ALL THREE HAVE SOLD ARMS TO SYRIA - SEE DAILY MAIL REPORT
"hide away in shame. "
What - moi?
Now you are being silly - especially as it was you who pointed out that it was sniper rifle bullets that Britain supplied
"SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA,
That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
You really are not having a good day, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:07 AM

"approved" does not mean sold Jim.
Why would Assad forsake China and buy just small arms ammunition from Britain?
British workers have to be paid more than those in the Marxist Republic.
Especially the little ones.

BRITAIN HAS SOLD NO WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION TO SYRIA.
YOU HAVE MADE IT UP.
YOU HAVE USED THIS THREAD AS A VEHICLE FOR YOUR DERANGED HATRED, AND IT IS ALL A LIE.

And to use this of all threads is shameful indeed Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:09 AM

"BRITAIN HAS SOLD NO WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION TO SYRIA."
Yes we have Keith - The Daily Mail said so, so it must be true.
Also here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/22/uk-arms-sales-middle-east-north-africa
"YOU HAVE MADE IT UP."
No I haven't - but maybe the Daily Mail and the Guardian did - both are, after all, notoriously anti-British!!
"AND IT IS ALL A LIE."
Now you are becoming hysterical - remember what I said about the deep breaths.
This is now becoming embarrasing - I suggest you take a day off and think about things.
Your proposal to arm a fascist dictator with riot-control equipment will forever stand next to your Pakistani cultural perverts statement - why not try to find an 'unimpeachable expert' who has proved that selling arms to fascist dictators in order to put down pro-democracy demonstrations is a "good thing" so you can then claim to be "only the messenger"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:19 AM

For a spreadsheet of exactly who Britain sells arms to, see here
Jim Carroll
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdHRjRVRWLXNmNTNaMW80S3FUQ0g2SUE&hl=en#

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:44 AM

Yes we have Keith - The Daily Mail said so, so it must be true.
Don't be so gullible Jim.
And, it does not say anything was sold to Syria.
Read it again.

Your Guardian "data blog" refers to one licence for a small amount of small arms ammunition.
So one individual bought some cheap ammo on the international market and sold it on.
Not British ammunition.

You ignore the suppliers of the tanks, artillery and shells killing scores every day, and the regime that uses them on its own people, and try to make the whole thread about Britain on the basis of just that.
That is not rational hatred Jim.
It has twisted and turned your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 12:21 PM

Ah so the tragedy that is being played out in Syria is down to £30,000 worth of "small arms" ammunition that may or may not have been sold to Syria two years ago - WOW

Now let us see if that ammunition was sold by Britain what Syrian weapons could have been used for?

NATO calibres include:

5.56 x 45 mm
7.62 x 51 mm
9 x 19 mm
12.7 x 99 mm or .50 BMG (Browning machine gun)

Warsaw Pact calibres include:

5.45 x 39 mm
7.62 x 39 mm
7.62 x 54 mm (Rimmed)
9 x 18 mm Makarov
7.62 x 25 mm
12.7 x 107 mm or 12.7 x 108 mm
14.5 x 114 mm

AK-47 uses short chamber 7.62 rounds which Britain does not make because we do not use it our 7.62 rounds were longer.

That would leave 9mm NATO Ball ammunition for pistols? Again ours are too long. So we are not talking about British Government sales here we are talking about a dealer based in the UK who may well not even be a UK citizen.

In 2010 there were 220,000 men serving in the Syrian Army + 280,000 Reserves give each man 10 rounds "live" firing per year and that amounts to 5,000,000 rounds which would work out at 0.6p per round.

I would therefore hazard the guess that any ammunition sold to Syria by someone based in the UK with an "end user certificate" approved by British authorities has long since been expended and used way before the current stramash got underway.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

Ah - the return of the gun nut.
You have a list of the states buying weapons from Britain - I wonder how many demonstrators £30.000 worth of bullets would kill - care to give us an expert opinion Terrytoon? Or perhaps you know the Syrians have expended the British ammunition elsewhere - the pair of you seem chummy enough with them to have such information to hand   
On the one hand Stan says there are no weapons being sold, on the other Ollie agrees that there are but that the figure is insignificant - care to check your hymn sheets lads?
IT IS MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO ARM MONSTERS AND POTENTIAL MONSTERS -YOU HAVE THE LISTS - LYBIA, EGYPT, SYRIA, SAUDI ARABIA, BAHRAIN..... Britain is third in the world league for weapons sales.
Another leftie-rag comment:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-under-fire-for-selling-arms-to-bahrain-2218423.html
And since you're here Ollie - perhaps you'd care to give us an opinion on Stan's suggestion that Britain would be ok to sell riot control equipment to a Middle Eastern despot in the process of mudering his people - for or against?
"It has twisted and turned your mind."
Nope - it's twisted to claim there to be no wrong in profiteering by arming despotic thugs (and potential ones)
Perhaps a little up-to-date reminder of who Britain has sold sniper ammunition to is in order – this time from another leftie source – Reuters.
Jim Carroll

BEIRUT | Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:12am EST
SCENES OF HORROR AS SYRIA'S HOMS BLEEDS FROM SIEGE
Bombardment in Homs
Thu, Feb 9 2012
(Reuters) - Makeshift hospitals in besieged opposition areas of the Syrian city of Homs are overflowing with dead and wounded from government bombardments and snipers, according to a report by international monitor Human Rights Watch.
Medical supplies are running out and at least three field hospitals have been hit. Rooms are full of corpses while in the streets, wounded people are bleeding to death as it is too dangerous for rescuers to bring them to safety.
The New York-based Human Rights Watch provided this picture of nearly a week of carnage in Homs from talking to several witnesses inside the city, now the focal point of the 11-month-old uprising against President Bashar al-Assad's rule.
Since the military operation against opposition neighborhoods was launched Friday night, government forces have fired hundreds of shells and mortar bombs, killing more than 300 people and wounding hundreds more, including women and children, it said.
Soldiers have also strafed people from helicopters.
Government forces have taken over Homs University residences to use as a firebase and blockaded areas of the city, preventing people from getting out and food, medicine and other supplies from getting in, according to the report.
"Injured people are dying because we cannot treat them. There are still people in the street who are injured. They are missing body parts. We cannot pull them in because of the shooting. They will die in the street," it quoted one witness named Karim, a resident of Khalidiya neighborhood, as saying.
WOMEN AND CHILDREN
Homs, an industrial city in western Syria with a population of nearly a million, is the country's third largest and has a history stretching back to ancient times.
It has been in the forefront of the uprising against Assad and has seen frequent protests and repression since March.
The latest bout of bloodshed began when security forces at checkpoints and on rooftops opened fire on a protest near the Al-Zahire mosque last Friday evening, according to Hani, a witness from Baba Amro district. Soon after, shelling began.
In Khalidiya, fighters of the rebel Free Syrian Army seized a checkpoint and residents took to the streets to celebrate - provoking an intensive barrage that lasted for several hours, witness Samer said.
Wasim said that Monday, Baba Amro, Khalidiya and Wadi Iran were all shelled.
"I could hear the sound of women and children screaming while running on the streets trying to escape the shelling," he said in the HRW report.
He and some other tried to rescue wounded people but they came under fire as tried to retreat using secret passages. They were forced to stay in hiding and the 10 wounded they had picked up died from loss of blood.
A doctor at al-Waer hospital said medical supplies had run out. Monday, 18 wounded patients, including a 13-year-old child, died of complications in the hospital when the electricity was cut off, he said.
Mahmud, a Baba Amro resident, told Human Rights Watch: "There is no escape or safe passage from the area and there is no safe shelter inside the area from the rockets and shells.
"There is no bread, no medication and no nutritional supplies, and after a field hospital was targeted, we lost several of our medical staff."
Snipers targeted any moving object, he said.
"Many of the wounded have very serious injuries - they lost their limbs, or eyes, had serious wounds to the body."
Human Rights Watch said that the indiscriminate shelling of populated areas which resulted in civilian casualties was a serious human rights violation.
"This brutal assault on residential neighborhoods shows the Syrian authorities' contempt for the lives of their citizens in Homs," said Anna Neistat, HRW emergencies director.
"Those responsible for such horrific attacks will have to answer for them."
(Reporting by Angus MacSwan; Editing by Alastair Macdonald)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:25 PM

Of course, we might gain a little comfort from the thought that the British ammo sold to Assad was only used for training, so the lads shooting down civilians could do their jobs efficiantly - cling to that one Terminus - it may help you through the dark hours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 03:57 PM

Jim,

"Human Rights Watch said that the indiscriminate shelling of populated areas which resulted in civilian casualties was a serious human rights violation."

YOUR failure to take China and Russia to task for the shells involved is certain proof you have NO concern for the Syrian people, just a desire to beat up on Britain. THEY were the ones who blocked the UN taking action, yet that seems ok with you.

" I do not make any distinction between "heavy weapons" more likely to be used in military conflict and the armoured vehicles, tear gas, sniper rifles - "

Yet HRW does, and the use of those heavy weapons against civilians IS a crime against humanity, while the use of tear-gas and armoured vehicles is NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 04:37 PM

"YOUR failure to take China and Russia to task for the shells"
I have not failed to take Russia and China to task for the shells - I condemn all of them utterly but I have said repeatedly that I believe all nations who supply weapons to dictators to be no better than one another.
You have seen descriptions of the slaughter by snipers armed with British supplied ammunition.
I refuse to discriminate between weapons supplied by Russia and China and those supplied by Britain specifically to be used on civilians - that would be rank hypocracy. You've had the list of countries Britain has traded arms with - you may add to that Pinochet's Chile and Mugabe's Zimbabwe - how does that grab you?
damn them all - they are all mercenary dealers in death and it is flag-waving shit to claim otherwise - do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain or are you with the other pair of shits?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:29 PM

Sometimes James I really feel that the world would have been a far, far better place if your father had just accepted the blow job your mother offered.

I will continue to run on logic, reason and fact mixed in with a bit of commonsense and perspective.

Oh by the way, what sniper-rifles does the Syrian Army have that would take "British" ammunition - or is that just a little bit too logical and reasonable a question for you to ask yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:41 PM

I am amazed at the ability of people to discuss morals in a whorehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:19 PM

Sniper rifles used by Syrian Army

Dragunov SVD
PSL
Zastava M91
Steyr SSG 69

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM

Thanks for that 999

NATO calibres include:

5.56 x 45 mm
7.62 x 51 mm - This the Steyr SSG 69 Austrian
9 x 19 mm
12.7 x 99 mm or .50 BMG (Browning machine gun)

Warsaw Pact calibres include:

5.45 x 39 mm
7.62 x 39 mm
7.62 x 54 mm (Rimmed) - Dragunov; PSL; Zastava M91 Russia & former Warsaw Pact
9 x 18 mm Makarov
7.62 x 25 mm
12.7 x 107 mm or 12.7 x 108 mm
14.5 x 114 mm

The ammunition (unspecified as to type) sold by someone in the UK (Not the UK Government and hence NOT sold by the "British") two years ago will have long gone before the current outbreak of violence in Syria - Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 03:25 AM

"Snipers have to practice"
Already done that - you are now excusing the sale of British ammunition to a despotic regime to enable their snipers to kill the citizens of Homs more efficiantly - oh, that's all right then!
Do you do bookings - there are some great comedy venues over here.
"Sometimes James I really feel that the world would have been a far, far better place if your father had just accepted the blow job your mother offered."
There you go - the discussion is now down to the level you are most at ease with.
You really couldn't make you people up
Have a nice day there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:05 AM

I have not failed to take Russia and China to task for the shells

Millions of pounds worth of tanks and artillery and Kalashnikovs and sniper rifles and thousands of tons of shells and live rounds, and unequivocal support in UN.

Britain, possibly a British person possibly supplied a few weeks worth of bullets two years ago.

Last count, in your posts you have mentioned Syria 8 times, Russia 5 times, China 4 times and Britain/UK 55 times!

You care much more about slandering UK than for the suffering of Syria, the subject of this thread, which you have turned to shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:07 AM

PS
"Not the UK Government and hence NOT sold by the "British"
But licensed for sale by the British Government.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:12 AM

"and Britain/UK 55 times!
"In response to your attempting to defend the selling of weapons to a murderous regime.
As you rightly pointed out - these were sniper bullets now being used on civilians in Homs (or, at the very least, have been used to train the snipers who are now randomly slaughtering those civilians).
Having pointed out this fact ("That would be for the sniper rifles Jim") and despite any evidence being offered to the contrary, you have desperately attempted to deny (without a shred of proof) that Britain has not sold these arms to Assad's regime. Failing miserably, you are now trying to make this an "anti-British" thing. It is not - I don't go in for self-hatred.
Fact- Britain sold sniper rifle bullets to Assad's regime. These are possibly being used to kill civilians, or have been used to train the killers. Fact - Despite the obvious nature of the Assad regime you have proposed that it would be acceptable to provide it with the wherewithal to crush the opposition to the regime.
I do hope today will be as easy as yesterday was - keep up the good work.
By the way - do you feel that Terpitude's comments about my mother (now dead 47 years) has raised or lowered the level of debate here? Can't make up my mind, but would very much welcome your advice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

There is no reason, that I am aware of, to believe they were sniper bullets.
If you have any evidence, show us.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:22 AM

"There is no reason, that I am aware of, to believe they were sniper bullets."
But you said they were - make up your mind laddie, you really can't have it both ways.
No comment on Terminus's remarks, so, like the sale of arms to fascist regimes - I can only assume you are in favour
What a bunch you lot are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:20 AM

My mistake was to briefly believe some of the made up allegations of a compulsive liar Jim.
If we had supplied those rifles, the ammunition would have made some sense.
But Britain supplied no rifles or any other weapons.
You made it all up.

A licence for a few bullets may have been issued back then, but I doubt any was supplied.
It makes no sense. We do not make anything they use.

2010 was a wet year here.
Perhaps it was ammo for water cannon?