Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:44 AM

Hi,

I've put most of the songs in my collection for No. 73 Lord Thomas/Bown Girl. Please to add (post lyrics) if you have additional versions. Here's the list:

Lord Thomas and Fair Elendar- Stone (Kansas) 1897
The Brown Girl- Pettit (KY) pre1907 Kittredge
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender- Harmon (TN) 1928
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor- Songster- c. 1840s
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellen- (VA) 1898 Brown A
Fair Ellender and the Brown Girl- Fish (NC) 1913
Fair Ellender- Caldwell (NC) 1913 Perrow
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender- Holder (NC) 1914
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor- Greer (NC) 1915
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Blacknall (NC) c.1812
Lord Thomas- Freeman (Ark.) 1941 Randolph J
The Brown Girl- (VA) 1889 Babcock- Child
The Brown Girl- Urice (WV) 1816 Cox A
Fair Ellender & the Brown Girl- Bronley (WV) 1916 Cox B
Fair Elander & the Brown Girl- McCourt (WV) 1916 Cox C
Fair Ellender- Mrs. Boggs (WV) 1917 Cox D
Lord Thomas- Bennett (WV) 1916 Cox E
Lord Thomas- Miller (WV) 1916 Cox F
Fair Ellenger- McAtee (WV) 1917 Cox G
The Brown Girl- Bosely (WV) 1917 Cox H
Lord Thomas- Ramenes (Ark.) 1914 Cox I
Lord Thomas- Mackay (New Brunswick) 1881 Child D f.
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellendry- House NC 1916 Sharp A
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Moore Ga 1909 Sharp B
Little Eleanor- M. E. B. (Vt.) 1905 Barry
Lord Thomas- Williams (Mo.) pre1906 Belden A
Lord Thomas- Vaughan (Mo.) pre1906 Belden B
Lord Thomas- Simmons (Ark.) pre1906 Belden C
The Brown Girl- Fore (Mo.) pre1906 Belden D
The Brown Girl- Creed (Illinois) pre1939 Neely
Lord Thomas & Fair Alander- Lowrimore (CA) 1946
Lord Thomas- Beeman (Michigan) 1936 Gardner A
Lord Thomas- Loughlin (Michigan) 1878 Gardner B
Lord Thomas- W. H. E. (VA) 1950 Davis JOAFL
Lord Thomas And Fair Ellen- Aveline (Ind.) 1942
The Brown Girl- Barnett (Miss.) 1926 Hudson
Lord Thomas- Underhill (Ind.) 1936 Brewster A
The Brown Girl- Bryant (Indiana) 1937 Brewster B
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Sullivan (IN) 1935 Brewster C
Lord Thomas's Wedding- Lenington (IN) 1935 Brewster D
Fair Eleanor- McDonald (Indiana) 1935 Brewster E
The Brown Girl- Davis (Indiana) 1935 Brewster F
Lord Thomas- Johnson (Indiana) 1935 Brewster G
The Brown Girl- McAllister (Indiana) 1935 Brewster H
Lord Thomas & Fair Elenor- Mitchell (VA) 1920 Davis A
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Nelson VA 1924 Davis B
The Brown Girl- Welch (WV) 1957 Musick A
The Brown Girl- Keener (WV) 1957 Musick B
The Brown Girl- Ammons (WV) 1957 Musick C
The Brown Girl- Eddy (WV) 1957 Musick D
Lord Thomas- Grimm (Nebraska) 1913 Pound
The Brown Girl- Pierce (SC-NC) pre1927 Reed Smith
The Brown Girl- Pierce (SC-NC) pre1927 Sandburg
Fair Eleanor and Lord Thomas- Wallin (NC) 1983
Lord Thomas & Fair Elinor- Compton SC 1913 Smith A
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Simons SC 1928 Smith B
Lord Thomas & Fa'r Elinor- Means SC 1899 Smith D
The Brown Girl- Clement (SC) 1913 Smith E
Lord Thomas- Walters (Newfoundland) 1929
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Hart VA 1921 Davis C
Fair Ellen- Sears (VA) 1916 Davis D Lord
Thomas & Fair Ellender- Ritchie KY 1961 Rec.
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- McNab (Halifax) pre1932
The Brown Bride- Wyman (KY) pre1919
The Brown Girl- Yowell (VA) 1914 Davis E
The Three Lovers- Wiley (VA) Davis F
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Via (VA) 1920 Davis G
Lord Thomas- Eubank (VA) 1914 Davis H
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Doss VA 1921 Davis I
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Rodes (VA) 1917 Davis J
The Brown Girl- Boyd (VA) 1916 Davis K
The Brown Girl- Maxie (VA) 1914 Davis L
Lord Thomas- Stone (VA) 1914 Davis M
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Mullens (VA) 1921 Davis N
Lord Thomas- Grainger (VA) 1913 Davis O
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- Cover VA 1913 Davis P
The Brown Girl- Seoane (VA) 1914 Davis Q
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- (Ga) 1933 Niles B
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Smith NC 1936 Niles A
Lord Thomas- Andrus (Schenectady NY) 1844
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Brown (KY) 1930s Niles C
Thomas and Ellen- Turner (NC) c.1930s Niles D
The Brown Girl- Horton Barker (VA) 1939 Halpert
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Kennison (VT) 1930
Lord Thomas- Gentry/Long (NC) 1916 Sharp E
Lord Thomas- Parsons (TN) 1917 Sharp L
Lord Thomas- Snipes (NC) 1918 Sharp B b
Lord Thomas- Chrisom (NC) 1918 Sharp C c
Lord Thomas- Maud Long (NC) 1946 Moser Rec.
Lord Thomas- McGill (KY) pre1917 McGill
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- Decker (NL) 1959
The Brown Girl- Collier (VA) pre1936 Scarborough A
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Gibson (VA) 1936 Scar B
Lord Thomas- Morris (VA) pre1936 Scarborough C
Lord Thomas- Owens (VA) pre1936 Scarborough D
Fair Ellender- Lambert (VA) pre1936 Scarborough E
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Ports (OH) 1939 Eddy A
Lord Thomas- Stork (OH) 1939 Eddy B
Lord Thomas- Chapel (OH) 1939 Eddy C
The Brown Girl- Mace (OH) 1939 Eddy D
The Brown Girl- Lozier (KY) pre1973 Recording
The Brown Girl- McDonald (Arkansas) 1958 Hunter
The Brown Girl- McCord (Mo.) 1958 Hunter
Lord Thomas- Brewer (Ark.) 1958 Hunter
The Brown Girl- Kisner (Ark.) 1960 Hunter
Fair Annalee- Driftwood (Ark.) 1969 Hunter Rec.
The Brown Girl- Daugherty (Ark.) 1958 Wolfe Collection
Lord Thomas- McMillon (NC) 1985 Recording
Lord Thomas- Enzor (KY) 1957 Roberts
Fair Ellender- Proffitt (NC) 1959 Warner
Lord Thomas- Tilllett (NC) 1941 Warner
The Brown Girl- Bethel (Mo.) 1930 Randolph A
Lord Thomas & the Brown Girl- (Mo.) 1928 Randolph B
Brown Girl- Bullard (Mo.) 1927 Randolph C
Fair Ellender- Baber (Mo.) 1924 Randolph D
The Brown Girl- Morris (Mo.) 1935 Randolph E
The Brown Girl- Hastings (Ark.) 1941 Randolph F
The Brown Girl- Reba (Mo.) 1941 Randolph G
The Brown Girl- Short (Mo.) 1941 Randolph H
The Brown Girl- McCord (Mo.) c.1900 Randolph I
Lord Thomas- Freeman (Mo.) 1941 Randolph J

You can view individual versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-73-lord-thomas--fair-annet.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:50 AM

Hi,

I found one version published in the US in 1939, no source given, and two from the 1840s (one is a broadside from Forget-Me-Not Songster). Several versions can be traced through family accounts earlier- one to c. 1716 (Cox).

Any other early US or Canadian versions?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM

Flanders gives 12 versions from Vt, Me and NY and some interesting points of comparison in the intro, some referring to Belden's study.
Mainly re certain stanzas not present in American versions.

Are you using the Roud Index to identify texts you haven't got access to?

Are you also keeping a weather eye on Canadian versions? I have occasionally noted similarities between some Me and Ny ballads and Nova Scotia and other Maritimes. Cazden/Catskills is good for this info, but surprisingly they don't have a version of 73.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:56 AM

Hi,

Don't have Flanders.

I am using the Roud Index sometimes. I have a number of versions not found in the index. I'm missing a number of them- of course.

Trying to look at Canadian (Peacock) (Fowke)

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:16 AM

Richie,
Does this mean you've nearly got them, or do you want us to supply copies?

I have Peacock and some of Fowke's books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:54 AM

Hi,

Steve, I don't have Fowke's version. If you have any versions I'm missing please post. I need to get more books which I will soon. Having some financial problems.

Here's Dew Henson's 1938 version of Child 74. Can anyone hear the second line? I've made a rough transcription. Any corrections? Listen here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/lady-margaret--sweet-william--henson-ky-1938-.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

Richie

I've had a listen and posted my corrections below. Drops in v2 I'm not completely sure of, but I think that's what it is. v7 l2 I'm not sure whether the word should be lint rather than linen. (A couple of words were just omitted in the transcript and you have one those instead of them; I've included them below).

Mick

---

LADY MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM

One morning, one morning, one morning in May,
There rose a grievous alarm
Sweet William, he said, he was pestered in his head
By the dream he had dreamt last night.

He dreamed---,
That his bed was swilted by drops
And his bride was all swimming in blood.

He called to his horses all,
And he counted one, two, three,
At the last of them all he called for his bride,
Liddy Marget may I go and see.

He rode till he came to Liddy Marget's gate,
And he tingled on the ring,
No one was so ready as Liddy Marget's brother,
To rise and bid him come in.

"Is she in the kitchen," said he,
"Or is she in the hall?
Or is she in that far back room,
Among the ladies all?"

"She's neither in the kitchen," said he,
"Nor she's neither in the hall.
But there she lies in her cold, cold coffin
A- sitting up agin the wall."

"Unfold, unfold that linen white sheet
That's made of linen (lint?) so fine
And let me kiss them clay cold lips
For often they kissed mine."

He first kissed her rosy red cheeks,
And then he kissed her chin;
And then he kissed them clay-cold lips
Which 'ffected his heart within.

They buried Liddy Marget in a church graveyard
Sweet William by her side.
And from her breast sprung a merry red rose,
And from his knees a green briar.

They growed, they growed to a top of a tower,
And they could not grow any higher.
They linked and they locked in a true-loves knot,
A red rose and a green briar.



Source: Daw Henson on Kentucky Mountain Music, 1938

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:27 AM

Richie
I have 7 of Fowke's books but can't find any versions of 73. Do you know if it has been published and if so where?

Have you got the version and fragment in Peacock yet? The bindings on Peacock make it hard to scan but I could type it.

If you PM your email I will scan the versions of 73 in Flanders.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:03 PM

Hi,

Thanks Mick for sorting out Hensen's version, I just had a quick listen. Love the guitar- it sounds like my version of Willie Moore to me, tho I haven't tried playing it yet.

Steve, I'll put my email here. If anyoen want to eamil me that's fine: [e-mail]

Thanks for the help,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:13 PM

Richie

I was out walking the dog after listening to the recording and without thinking about it I found I was singing bits of Willie Moore as I was walking along!.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:36 AM

Hi,

Here's what I have so far for Child 74 US Versions:

Sweet William- Herskille (WV) pre1917 Cox A
Sweet William- (KY) 1910 Combs JOAFL
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Williams (Mo.) 1906
William and Margaret- Zehner (Illinois) pre1939 Nealy
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Henson (KY) 1938
Lady Margaret- Brown (WV) c.1875 Cox B
Lydia Margaret- Neff (Mo.) 1914 Kittredge JOAFL
Sweet William and Lady Margery- (KY) 1916 Wyman
Sweet William- (KY) 1917 McGill
Sweet William- Jones (WV) c.1871 Cox C
Lady Margaret's Ghost- Johnson (WV) 1916 Cox D
Lady Margaret- McAtee (WV) 1917 Cox E
Lady Margaret- McKinney (WV) 1919 Cox F
Sweet William- Ayers (WV) pre1918 Cox G
Sweet William- Stockton (TN) 1916 Sharp A
Lady Margret- Hensley (KY) 1910 Sharp B
Lady Margaret & King William- Davis (VT) 1939
Prince William & Lady Margaret- Haskins (MA) 1934
Sweet William- Bennett (NC) 1918 Sharp P
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Ritchie (KY) 1961
Lady Marget- Fish (NC) pre1913 Brown/Perrow
Lady Margaret- Perry (NC) c.1940 Brown B
Sweet Willie- Brown (NC) c.1920 Brown C
Little Margaret- Lunsford (NC) 1953 Recording
Sweet William- Martin (VA) 1917 Davis A
Lady Margot- Holcolm (KY) 1932 Niles A
Lady Margot- Mullens (KY) 1933 Niles B
Little Margaret- Lofgren/Lunsford 1997
Little Margaret- Ramsey (NC) 1957 Recording
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Roberts (NC) 1943
Sweet William- Smith (IN) 1935 Brewster A
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Bryant (IN) 1935
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Johnson (IN) 1935
Lady Margaret- Lasher (IN) 1935 Brewster D
Sweet William- Shriver (IL) 1935 Brewster E
Lady Marget- Sands (NC) 1916 Sharp C
Lady Margret- Hensley (NC) 1916 Sharp D
Lady Margaret- Morris (VA) pre1936 Scarborough
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Goon (OH) c.1874 Eddy
Pretty Polly & Sweet William- Topper (OH) pre1939
Lydia Marget- Dove (VA) 1914 Davis B
Sweet William- Mitchell (KY) 1956 Roberts
Lady Margaret- Huddleston (Ark.) c.1972 Wolfe Coll
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Kennison (VT) 1930
Lady Margaret- Riddle (Ark.) c.1970 Wolfe Collection
Lady Margret- Hawkins (Ark.) 1962 Wolfe Coll.
Lady Margaret- Sutton (AR) 1952 Wolfe Coll.
Lady Margret- Brewer- (Ark.) 1958 Max Hunter
Lady Marg'ret- Sutton (NC) c.1920s Brown D
Sweet William- Walker (NC) 1936 Brown G
Lady Margret & Sweet William- Maxie (VA) 1914
Sweet William- Bucher (VA) 1914 Davis D   
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Clark (VA) 1920
Lady Margret- Armistead (VA) 1915 Davis G
Lady Margaret- Lynch (VA) 1916 Davis H
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Dickson (VA) 1920
Fair Margaret- Seoane (VA) 1914 Brown L
Lady Margret- Hogan (VA) 1914 Davis M
Sweet William's Bride- Rodes (VA) 1917 Davis N
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Armstrong (VA) 1922
Lady Margret- Morris (Mo.) 1962 Max Hunter
Lady Marget- Gilbert (Ark.) 1965 Max Hunter
Lady Margret- Martin (Kansas) c.1970 Max Hunter
Lady Margret- Majors (Kansas) c.1963 Max Hunter

You can look at individual versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-74-fair-margaret--s-will.aspx

Anyone have addition versions? Please post lyrics if you do,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM

Flanders=9

Just a thought, do you have Bronson?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:13 AM

No, need to get Bronson, hopefully I can afford to get books soon and a scanner.

I need to get several other books, some of them are a bit expensive- I plan on acquiring a few more.

Thanks for the Flanders,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 10:46 AM

Bronson of course should contain all of the American versions extant prior to the 1950s.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM

Bronson should have the American versions available with their tunes. He explicitly rejects anything from John Jacob Niles.

Bronson doesn't includes tuneless texts.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

Ah yes,
I should have mentioned that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:22 AM

Hi,

Thanks to Steve I've added Flanders A-I plus Randolph and am finished with my texts /music of Child 74 for now:


Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Smith (NM) 1917 Flanders B
Lady Marget- Keister (VA) 1913 Davis F
King William & Lady Margaret- Greene (VT) 1941 Flanders
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Smith (VT) c.1882 Flanders
Fair Margaret- Ashford (VT) 1937 Flanders I
Lady Marg'ret- Baber (Mo.) 1922 Randolph A
Lydia Margaret- Lane (Mo.) 1930 Randolph B
Pretty Polly- Kinnaird (Mo.) 1934 Randolph C
Lady Marget- Short (Mo.) 1941 Randolph D

There are some newer recordings but most are not traditional,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:09 PM

Hi,

I'm now on Lord Lovel. My question is concerning US broadsides. The broadside found at American Memory says:

Lord Lovel. J. Andrews, Printer, 38 Chatham St. N. Y. [n. d.]

Is there a way to find out approximately when it was printed? Here's a view:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-75-lord-lovel.aspx

There are several parody versions from the US in the 1860s when it was popular.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:56 PM

Richie - according to this document: Studying 19th Century Popular Song (pdf), "John Andrews opened a broadsheet printing shop on Chatham Street in New York, NY, in 1853".

Steve generally knows a lot about printers (I don't know how much about US ones), so he may be able to give you better information.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:21 PM

A book on New York mayors at google books suggest it may have been in 1854 that he bought a 4-storey house there.

There's also an interesting song here: lee's songbook called:

DEAD RABBITS' FIGHT WITH THE BOWERY BOYS
WORDS BY SAUGERTIES BARD
To the tune of JORDAN IS A HARD ROAD TO TRAVEL
1857.

It has the last verse:

  If you want all the good songs, 38 Chatham Street,
  There a printer lives, you may rely on;
  Lay in a large stock and supply all your friends,
  And they'll sing them on the other side of Jordan.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:25 PM

And finally (I hope) this entry at Johns Hopkins Libraries: I'm Off To California catalogue entry, states that: "The printer John Andrews was located at 38 Chatham Street in New York from 1853 to 1859."


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:26 AM

Hi,

TY Mick. Here's the text from c. 1853:

LORD LOVEL

Lord Lovel stood at his castle gate,
Combing his milk-white steed,
When up came Lady Nancy Bell,
To wish her lover good speed, speed, speed,
Wishing her lover good speed.

"Where are you going. Lord Lovel?" she said,
"Oh, where are you going?" said she;
"I am going, my Lady Nancy Bell,
Strange countries for to see, see, see."
Strange countries, &c.

"When will you be back, Lord Lovel?" said she,
"Oh, when will you be back?" said she;
"In a year or two, or three at most,
I'll return to my fair Nancy-cy-cy."
I'll return, &c.

But he had not been gone a year and a day,
Strange countries for to see,
When languishing thoughts came into his head,
Lady Nancy Bell he would go see, see, see.
Lady Nancy, &c.

So he rode and he rode on his milk-white horse,
Till he came to London town,
And then he heard St. Pancras bells
And the people all mourning round, round, round,
And the people &c.

"Oh, what is the matter?" Lord Lovel said,
"Oh what is the matter?" said he;
"A Lord's Lady is dead." the woman replied,
"And some call her Lady Nancy-cy-cy."
And some, &c.

So he ordered the grave to be opened wide,
And the shroud to be turned down,
And there he kissed her clay-cold lips
Till the tears came trickling down, down, down.
Till the tears, &c.

Lady Nancy died as it might be to-day,
Lord Lovel he died as to-morrow.
Lady Nancy she died out of pure grief,
Lord Lovel he died out of sorrow, sorrow, sorrow.
Lord Lovel he died, &c.

Lady Nancy was laid in St. Pancras church,
Lord Lovel was laid in the choir:
And out of her bosom there grew a red rose,
And out of her lover's a brier, rier, rier.
And out of, &c.

It grew, and it grew to the Church steeple top,
And then it could grow no higher,
So there entwined in a true lover's knot,
For all true-lovers to admire, rire, rire.
For all, &c.

This is essentially the same text as the broadside found in Child H, a London broadside of 1846, in Dixon's Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p. 78.

Curiously, the same text was found in Missouri dated 1812 which leads me to believe that the broadside version was around much earlier. Another version dating back c. 1776 is found as Brown E.

Is there an earlier English version?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 08:12 AM

Child A: Percy Papers, communicated by the Rev.P.Parsons, of Wye from singing; May 22, 1770, and April 19, 1775. (Or are you asking about broadsides?)

From quick look at Roud it looks as if most of the sources are C19.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 02:17 PM

Surely the c1853 text above is a burlesque!

A quick glance at all the British versions I have could all be after 1850 and could all be based on the popular burlesques which were widely printed as sheet music. I have several different issues c1840s 1850s of sheet music.

However I have a reference in Welsh and Tillinghast to a Glasgow printed version which could be older. This would be at Harvard.

There's an Andrews NY version on AMMEM and a Wrigley, NY version online. De Marsan printed a parody and there's a no imprint version of this on the AMMEM site with the Lord Lovell title.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 12 - 10:07 PM

Looks like the earliest US published version of Lord Lovel is 1832 in The New England Songster, Portsmouth, NH, Nathaniel March and Co., pp. 86-88. The next version, found in Hadaway's Select Songster (1840), can be viewed online.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 07:52 AM

Hi,

I've moved on to Child 76; Lass of Roch Royal. The number of authentic tradtional US and Canadian versions seems small- at least the versions that tell the story of Lord (Love) Gregory and the Lass.

Jean Ritchie's version seems to be a rewrite of the supplimental version found in Child. Any information on that one?

Carey Woofter's versions seems to be a rewrite of Child D. Anyone know about that one? (Found in Combs)

The Cox version seems to be based on a print version.

What are the versions? Georgie Jeems; Fowke's; Niles B;

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 08:58 AM

Here's Ritchie's version:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/fair-annie-of-lochroyan--ritchie-ky-1961-recording.aspx

Woofter's: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/sweet-annie-of-roch-royal--wv-1924-woofter.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 12 - 02:59 PM

Okay Richie,
If you want to give us a list of the books you've got, I'll see what else I have.
A quick glance at my indexes tells me Sandberg gives 4 versions, likewise Mellenger Henry, Davies lists 30!! Gainer 9, the Moores 2, Owen 1, Morris 1, Flanders just a couple of fragments, Randolph some, Wolf some and probably others if I looked closer. Bronson should have those with tunes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 05:03 PM

Hi,

I have Sandburg, Davis, Henry, Sharp, Randolph. Don't have Morris or Gainer.

I'm intersted in identifying the ballad in the US and Canada not just songs with the floating "Who Will Shoe Your Feet?" floating verses.

None of Davis's 30 versions qualify. Need at least some part of the ballad story.

TY Steve,

Ricihie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:36 AM

Apologies, Richie, it's not Gainer I've got, it's Brewster with the 9 versions which I'll check.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:40 AM

Brewster no good to you. It's also all 'who will shoe'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:58 AM

Morris has some of the ballad stanzas but like one of the Brewster versions is crossed with 'Turtle Dove' at p278.

The Lonesome Turtle-Dove, from Mr Lowery Davis, Gainesville, who learned it from the singing of his mother in Alabama.

As i was riding out one cold winter night,
A-drinking of sweet wine,
I went a-courting of that pretty little girl
That stole this heasrt of mine.

She's like one pink, one pink or rose,
That blooms in the month of June;
She's like one bright new instrument
That's never out of tune. (Wow! Love it!)

'I'm going away my own true love;
I'm going away for a while;
I'm going away but I'm coming back again,
Though it be ten thousand-mile.'

'Oh stay with me, my own true love,
Oh stay with me for a while;
Oh stay with me till the rocks all melt,
And the rolling sea runs dry.'

'And if I should prove false to you,
And I should never return;
The fire will freeze in a cold cake of ice,
And the rolling sea will burn.'

'Oh who will shoe my feet, my love,
And who will glove my hand,
And who will kiss my sweet ruby lips,
While you're in a foreign land?'

'Your father will shoe your feet, my love,
Your mother will glove your hand;
Your friends will kiss your sweet ruby lips,
While I'm in a foreign land.'

Her mother saw me in the door;
She rung her hands and cried,
'Oh oh you've come too late,
For now she's dead and gone.'

'Oh is she not in the dining room,
Or is she not in the hall,
Or is she not in the parlor room
Among those ladies all?'

'She's neither in the dining room,
And neither in the hall,
But yonder she lies in her cold cloudy coffin,
With her pale face to the wall.'

'Unfold, unfold those winding sheets;
Unfold those sheets so fine,
And let me kiss those sweet ruby lips,
As oft as she's kissed mine.'

'Oh don't you hear that lonesome turtledove,
That flies from pine to pine;
It's mourning the loss of its own true love,
And why not me for mine?'

Is this any good to you?
Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 May 12 - 01:24 PM

Hi,

Interesting version Steve. The last part except for the final stanza is, of course, 74. Fair Margaret and Sweet William.

The beginning is "A-Roving" and "Blackest Crow" "True Lover's Farewell" songs.

I don't think this tells the ballad of 76. Lass of Roch Royal. One verse gets close- the one about the mother and her dying.

TY

I'll use it tho,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 May 12 - 11:28 PM

Hi,

I'm lost in the English/Scottish Child versions of No. 76 now, too many details. For example, Child B has several text mistakes:

According to Jamieson the "Tabean birben kame" in stanza 2 & 4 must denote, "an ivory comb made at Tabia." If you check Herd's original you will see that in the Child text "birben" is mispelled as "brirben."

The Child text in Stanza 5 [2] is also wrong: "It's a' cored oer with pearl" should be "It's a' cover'd oer with pearl."

Details- details.

Comments?

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 12 - 05:05 AM

Richie
If you look at p225 you'll see Child acknowledges the birben/brirben differences. Presumably what he is saying is in the ms it is 'brirben' and in A&MSS it is 'corrected?' to 'birben'.

If you look in the glossary in vol 5 you'll see Finlay had 'birchen' which of course in Scots would be 'birken'. A handwritten copy could easily mistake 'birken' for 'birben'. The comb to me was obviously made of birch.

As for 'cored', well, nobody's ferpect!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 12 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve, for getting that srt8- haha.

I do have a general question regarding broadside The Lass of Ocram c. 1740 (or 1765)and the related versions titled The Lass of Aughrim.

I know The Lass of Aughrim (Child version H) from Mr. G.C. Mahon, of Ann Arbor, Michigan, as sung by a laborer, at Tyrrelspass, West Meath, Ireland, about 1830 is similar to The Lass of Ocram.

Are there other traditional Irish versions titled The Lass of Aughrim or that use those lyrics? I know Joe Heaney's "Lord Gregory" uses the The Lass of Aughrim.

Am I missing the lineage? Waht are the collected versions?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 12 - 07:34 AM

Here is one of the Irish version of Lass of Ocram:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/lord-gregory---cronin-ireland-1952-ennis.aspx

She pronounces it "Lass of Orms."

LORD GREGORY- Cronin 1952

1. I am a king's daughter that strayed from Cappoquin
In search of Lord Gregory, may God I'll find him
The rain beats at my yellow locks and the dew wets me still
The babe is cold in my arms, Lord Gregory let me in.

2. Lord Gregory is not here, and as full can be seen,
He is gone to bonny Scotland to bring home his new queen.
Leave now those windows and likewise this hall,
For it's deep in the sea you should hide your downfall.

3. Who'll shoe my babe's little feet, who'll put gloves on her hand,
And who'll tie my babe's middle with a long and green band?
Who'll comb my babe's yellow locks with an ivory comb,
And who'll be my babe's father till Lord Gregory comes home?

4. I'll shoe your babe's little feet, I'll put gloves on her hand,
And I'll tie your babe's middle with a long and green band;
I'll comb your babe's yellow locks with an ivory comb,
And I'll be your babe's father till Lord Gregory comes home.

5. Leave now those windows and likewise this hall,
For it's deep in the sea you should hide your downfall.

6. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in Cappoquin,
When we both 'changedp ocket handkerchiefsa, nd that against my will?
For yours was pure linen, love, and mine was coarse cloth,
Yours cost one guinea, love, and mine but one groat.

7. Leave now, etc.

8. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in Cappoquin,
We both 'changed rings off our fingers, and that against my will?
For yours was pure silver, love, and mine was block tin,
Yours cost twelve guineas, love, and mine but one cent.

9. Leave now, etc.

10. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in my father's hal,
When you stole away my fond heart, and that was worse than all?

11. Leave now, etc.

12. My curse on you, mether, and my curse it be sore,
I dreamt the Lass of Orms came rapping to my door.
Lie down, you foolish son, ah, lie down and sleep,
For 'tis long ago her weary locks are waving on the deep.

13. Come saddle me the(m) black horse, the(m) brown or the bay,
Come saddle me the(m) best horse in my stable this day.
I'll range over valleys and o'er mountains alway,
Till I find the Lass of Orms, and I lie by her side.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:03 AM

What is the source for these lyrics?

Unquiet Grave

Two were the sisters, one the bride,
John was so young and so brave.
The sisters stood silently side by side,
The one betrothed sobbed by his grave.

Cold blows the wind today, my love,
Bringing the clouds that rain.
Oh what can I do or say, my love,
To bring you near me, near me again?

I'll do as much for my true love,
As any young girl may.
I'll come and I'll mourn on his lonely grave,
For fully twelve months and one more day.

Time has gone by, a year, a day,
Lo! And a ghost did rise.
Said he: I beg you to let me stay,
And sleep forever, with my closed eyes.

How can I let you sleep, my love,
Now that your dear voice I hear?
I crave but a kiss from your clay-cold lips,
I long to kiss you, holding you near.

Then spoke the spirit angrily:
This would be harming you,
If you feel the touch of my clay-cold lips,
Your days, oh dear one, they will be through.

The spoke the maid in warm sweet tone:
This I would gladly do,
I so want to join you, my love, my own,
If this be dying, take me to you.

So goes the tale that time has told,
She rests beside him at last,
She's close to her love as in days of old,
She's with her lover, as in the past.

Unquiet grave, be still, be still,
Unquiet soul rest in peace.
Your lov'd ones will join thee, they will, they will,
When once their journey here has to cease.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:05 PM

Sorry if this sounds facetious, but definitely not oral tradition!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:20 PM

Hi,

TY Steve I agree.

I have a photocopy of the music to the lyrics dated adn copyrighted 1968. It's obviously a rewrite by someone- sounds like a country music version.

There are several online sites that have the lyrics posted.

Anyone else?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 15 May 12 - 08:51 AM

Hi,

Here are the US versions I have so far for child 78:

The Restless Grave- Barnett c.1913 Brown Coll.
The Unquiet Grave- White (Newfoundland) 1929
The Auld Song from Cow Head- Bull (NL) 1929
The Wind Blew Up- Netter (KY) Niles A
The Resurrected Sweetheart- Cottrell (KY) Niles B
The Green Grave- Nolan (KY) 1913 Niles C
The Unquiet Grave- Ritchie (KY) 1961 Recording
The Unquiet Grave- Clevenger (NJ) 1937 Halpert
Shakespeare's Ghost- Grant (NJ) 1938 Halpert
Cold Falling Drops Of Dew- Decker (NL) 1959
The Unquiet Grave- Kinslow (NL) 1959 Peacock A
Cold Blows the Wind- Delorme (NY) 1941 Olney

I don't have lyrics for Cold Blows the Wind (Ballads Migrant NE)
and I'm missing a version from VA from Davis (More Ballads). Anyoen have lyrics for those?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:43 PM

Ballads Migrant

Sung by Lily Delorme of Cadyville, NY
Coll. Olney & Porter Aug 16 1943

Cold Blows the Wind (with tune)

Cold blows the winter's wind, sweetheart,
Cold blows the drops of rain;
I never had but one sweetheart
And in the greenwood she was slain.

I'll do as much for my sweetheart
As any young man may;
I'll sit all on her grave and mourn
A twelvemonth and a day.

A twelvemonth and a day being past,
Her ghost began to speak;
'Why sit upon my grave and mourn
And will not let me sleep?

What do you want of me, sweetheart?
What do you want of me, I pray?'
'One kiss of your clay cold lips
And that is all i want of thee.'

'My lips are colder than clay, sweetheart,
My breat I'm sure is not strong,
If one kiss of my clay cold lips you have,
Your time it won't be long.'

Pretty standard.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:57 PM

MTBV is The Broken-Hearted Lover. Contributed by R E Lee Smith of Palmyra, Va. Sung by his brother, Thomas P Smith and himself. Dec 1912.
Learned from the singing of Mrs. Chaney Smith, who heard it sung by her mother 70 years before.

I wouldn't normally trust the Smith family material but there's nothing too freaky here, except perhaps the language is rather close to early versions in Child, such as 'breath smells earthy strong' and the last verse.

FWIW here it is.

'Wind cold today, my love,
And some wee drops of rain;
I never had but one dear love,
And in the cruel grave she was lain.

'I do as much for my dear love
As any young man will say;
I will set and cry on her grave
For one year and a day.'

The one year and a day being up,
the dead began to speak;
'Oh, who's weeping on my grave
And will not let me sleep?'

'It's me, my love, sets on your grave
And will not let you sleep;
For I crave one kiss from your fair lips
And that is all I ask.'

'You crave one kiss from my cold lips,
But my breath smells earthy strong;
If you have one kiss from my cold lips
Your days will not be long.

'It is down in yonder fields so green,
Love, where we used to walk;
The beautifulles' flower that ever was seen
Is withered now to a stalk.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:52 PM

Without delving very deep I'm struggling to identify any version that definitely predates 1800. There are plenty of broadsides but all identifiable ones are definitely early 19thc and none with Chid's title. Where did that editorial title come from? Broadsides are 'Cold Blows the Wind' or 'The Weeping Lover' or 'The Mournful Lovers'. The no imprint ones with the last title could well be late 18thc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 01:51 PM

Hi,

I've started Barbara Allen- will I ever finish it? haha

I'd like to find the earliest collected version- I think there was one from 1893 JOAFL.

Certainly there's earlier collected versions, anyone? Perhaps the Stevens-Douglass version would count. Any others?

I have a broadside from 1836. Are the US broadside reprints of earlier English broadsides?

Any US traditional versions with "Martimas time"?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 02:20 PM

Is this the oldest US print version, guessing early 1830s? Can we determine an approximate date?

Sold Wholesale and Retail, by L. Deming corner of Merchant's Row & Market Square, Boston.

BONNY BARBARA ALLAN

IT was in and about the Martimas time,
When the green leaves were a falling,
That Sir John Graeme in the west country
Fell in love with Barbara Allan.

He sent his man down through the town,
To the place where she was dwelling,
O haste, and come to my master dear,
Gin ye be Barbara Allan.

O hooly, hooly rose she up.
To the place where he was lying,
And when she drew the curtain by,
Young man, I think you're dying.

O it's I'm sick, and very sick,
And 'tis a' for Barbara Allan,
O the better for me ye's never be,
Tho' your heart's blood were a spilling.

O dinna ye mind, young man, said she,
When ye was in the tavern a drinking,
That ye made the healths gae round & round
And slighted Barbara Allan.

He turn'd his face unto the wall,
And death was with him dealing;
Adieu, adieu, my dear friends all,
And be kind to Barbara Allan.

And slowly, slowly rose she up,
And slowly, slowly left him;
And sighing, said, she could not stay,
Since death of life had reft him.

She had not gane a mile but twa,
When she heard the death-bell ringing,
And every jow that the dead-bell gied,
It cry'd, Wo to Barbara Allan.

O mother, mother, make my bed,
O make it saft and narrow,
Since my love dy'd for me to-day,
I'll die for him to-morrow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 09:12 PM

Richie

This entry at Google books: Wife, Children & Friends; Together with Bonny Barbara Allan gives Sold wholesale and retail, by L. Deming, corner of Merchant's Row and Market Square, Boston., 1829.

The entry appears to be 1 page only with no preview, so you can't get any other details, except the publisher and date. (though I notice at American Singing, as115010 - Wife, Children and Friends is given as n.d.).


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:13 PM

Hi,

TY, Mick I guess that makes it the first printed version in the US. The usual date given is 1836. Does anyone know the source?

Martimas time, is that Nov. 11?

Was Sir John Graeme a historical figure?

R-

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 07:38 AM

Hi Richie,
This is just off the top of my head and I will check in more detail later, but the 2 distinct strains of BA are this one and the Reading/Scarlet town strains. I would guess that the Sir John Graeme strain is likely the stage ballad referred to by Pepys in the late 17thc. The Scots language doesn't necessarily mean the ballad came from Scotland. Stage Scotch songs were very popular in the 17thc just as stage Irish songs were popular in later centuries. The 2 strains appear both to have long pedigrees in Britain.

The name Graeme appears in several border ballads and is very likely just generic. Even if you could relate it to the Graemes there were very probably many Sir Johns as I found when I was trying to trace another Scots family mentioned in ballads.

You can easily get 'Martinmas' by Googling.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 09:57 AM

Refersh