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BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate

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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

Uh Oh, Party Pooper is back! Ermmm...not ALL the Alonquin People will be celebrating in the 'traditional' way, that being The White Man's Way....

Mohawk - Thanksgiving

The Wampanoag

The speech of Frank James, which he was NOT allowed to deliver, even though he had been cordially invited to make a speech that day. Answers for why he was then 'uninvited' on a postcard, please to"

Bloody Befuddled
'WhyDoWeKeepDenyingThis' House
TimeWeGrewAndAcceptedWhatHappened Lane
Truth Town


"I speak to you as a man -- a Wampanoag Man. I am a proud man, proud of my ancestry, my accomplishments won by a strict parental direction ("You must succeed - your face is a different color in this small Cape Cod community!"). I am a product of poverty and discrimination from these two social and economic diseases. I, and my brothers and sisters, have painfully overcome, and to some extent we have earned the respect of our community. We are Indians first - but we are termed "good citizens." Sometimes we are arrogant but only because society has pressured us to be so.

    "It is with mixed emotion that I stand here to share my thoughts. This is a time of celebration for you - celebrating an anniversary of a beginning for the white man in America. A time of looking back, of reflection. It is with a heavy heart that I look back upon what happened to my People.

    "Even before the Pilgrims landed it was common practice for explorers to capture Indians, take them to Europe and sell them as slaves for 220 shillings apiece. The Pilgrims had hardly explored the shores of Cape Cod for four days before they had robbed the graves of my ancestors and stolen their corn and beans. Mourt's Relation describes a searching party of sixteen men. Mourt goes on to say that this party took as much of the Indians' winter provisions as they were able to carry.

    "Massasoit, the great Sachem of the Wampanoag, knew these facts, yet he and his People welcomed and befriended the settlers of the Plymouth Plantation. Perhaps he did this because his Tribe had been depleted by an epidemic. Or his knowledge of the harsh oncoming winter was the reason for his peaceful acceptance of these acts. This action by Massasoit was perhaps our biggest mistake. We, the Wampanoag, welcomed you, the white man, with open arms, little knowing that it was the beginning of the end; that before 50 years were to pass, the Wampanoag would no longer be a free people.

    What happened in those short 50 years? What has happened in the last 300 years? History gives us facts and there were atrocities; there were broken promises - and most of these centered around land ownership. Among ourselves we understood that there were boundaries, but never before had we had to deal with fences and stone walls. But the white man had a need to prove his worth by the amount of land that he owned. Only ten years later, when the Puritans came, they treated the Wampanoag with even less kindness in converting the souls of the so-called "savages." Although the Puritans were harsh to members of their own society, the Indian was pressed between stone slabs and hanged as quickly as any other "witch."

    "And so down through the years there is record after record of Indian lands taken and, in token, reservations set up for him upon which to live. The Indian, having been stripped of his power, could only stand by and watch while the white man took his land and used it for his personal gain. This the Indian could not understand; for to him, land was survival, to farm, to hunt, to be enjoyed. It was not to be abused. We see incident after incident, where the white man sought to tame the "savage" and convert him to the Christian ways of life. The early Pilgrim settlers led the Indian to believe that if he did not behave, they would dig up the ground and unleash the great epidemic again.

    "The white man used the Indian's nautical skills and abilities. They let him be only a seaman -- but never a captain. Time and time again, in the white man's society, we Indians have been termed "low man on the totem pole."

    "Has the Wampanoag really disappeared? There is still an aura of mystery. We know there was an epidemic that took many Indian lives - some Wampanoags moved west and joined the Cherokee and Cheyenne. They were forced to move. Some even went north to Canada! Many Wampanoag put aside their Indian heritage and accepted the white man's way for their own survival. There are some Wampanoag who do not wish it known they are Indian for social or economic reasons.

    "What happened to those Wampanoags who chose to remain and live among the early settlers? What kind of existence did they live as "civilized" people? True, living was not as complex as life today, but they dealt with the confusion and the change. Honesty, trust, concern, pride, and politics wove themselves in and out of their [the Wampanoags'] daily living. Hence, he was termed crafty, cunning, rapacious, and dirty.

    "History wants us to believe that the Indian was a savage, illiterate, uncivilized animal. A history that was written by an organized, disciplined people, to expose us as an unorganized and undisciplined entity. Two distinctly different cultures met. One thought they must control life; the other believed life was to be enjoyed, because nature decreed it. Let us remember, the Indian is and was just as human as the white man. The Indian feels pain, gets hurt, and becomes defensive, has dreams, bears tragedy and failure, suffers from loneliness, needs to cry as well as laugh. He, too, is often misunderstood.

    "The white man in the presence of the Indian is still mystified by his uncanny ability to make him feel uncomfortable. This may be the image the white man has created of the Indian; his "savageness" has boomeranged and isn't a mystery; it is fear; fear of the Indian's temperament!

    "High on a hill, overlooking the famed Plymouth Rock, stands the statue of our great Sachem, Massasoit. Massasoit has stood there many years in silence. We the descendants of this great Sachem have been a silent people. The necessity of making a living in this materialistic society of the white man caused us to be silent. Today, I and many of my people are choosing to face the truth. We ARE Indians!

    "Although time has drained our culture, and our language is almost extinct, we the Wampanoags still walk the lands of Massachusetts. We may be fragmented, we may be confused. Many years have passed since we have been a people together. Our lands were invaded. We fought as hard to keep our land as you the whites did to take our land away from us. We were conquered, we became the American prisoners of war in many cases, and wards of the United States Government, until only recently.

    "Our spirit refuses to die. Yesterday we walked the woodland paths and sandy trails. Today we must walk the macadam highways and roads. We are uniting We're standing not in our wigwams but in your concrete tent. We stand tall and proud, and before too many moons pass we'll right the wrongs we have allowed to happen to us.

    "We forfeited our country. Our lands have fallen into the hands of the aggressor. We have allowed the white man to keep us on our knees. What has happened cannot be changed, but today we must work towards a more humane America, a more Indian America, where men and nature once again are important; where the Indian values of honor, truth, and brotherhood prevail.

    "You the white man are celebrating an anniversary. We the Wampanoags will help you celebrate in the concept of a beginning. It was the beginning of a new life for the Pilgrims. Now, 350 years later it is a beginning of a new determination for the original American: the American Indian.

    "There are some factors concerning the Wampanoags and other Indians across this vast nation. We now have 350 years of experience living amongst the white man. We can now speak his language. We can now think as a white man thinks. We can now compete with him for the top jobs. We're being heard; we are now being listened to. The important point is that along with these necessities of everyday living, we still have the spirit, we still have the unique culture, we still have the will and, most important of all, the determination to remain as Indians. We are determined, and our presence here this evening is living testimony that this is only the beginning of the American Indian, particularly the Wampanoag, to regain the position in this country that is rightfully ours."

Taken from here:
The National Day of Mourning


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:25 AM

And please remember that whilst your President is busy pardoning yet two more Turkeys from being killed, he presides over a government which keeps an innocent Native Americann in prison, for the 37th YEAR now, STILL refusing to pardon Leonard Peltier....preferring to Pardon Turkeys instead...

Obama should be hanging his head in shame, for of ALL Presidents HE is the one who should have freed Leonard Peltier, almost the moment he first became President, sending out a message to the Native Americans that FINALLY things were going to be changing, fast and furious..

Sorry for making anyone feel uncomfortable, but maybe, just maybe, there are many things about Thanksgiving to feel uncomfortable about, until all these Wrongs have finally been Righted....


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Marmdad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM

Peltier doesn't equal votes, but somehow illegal immigrants do.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS:What are you doing for Thanksgiving?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:44 AM

Sorry all my US friends - You are for it now :-( Thanksgiving - No thanks, Think of the Indians. Christmas? Don't make me laugh. How many Moslems will you offend celebrating that? Easter? I am surprised Israel hasn't already declared war! Independance Day? Us UKers will have a thing or two to say about that.... National blind, one-legged, black lesbian unicyclists day? I am sure it must offend tri-cyclists...

Or, on the other hand, you could do like I do and celebrate EVRYONES day. It's great. I enjoy Christmas, Hanukah, Divali, Eid, Samhain and the occasional Bastile day :-) Ignore the wankers who try to win political points by claiming that whatever you celebrate is wrong. Poo-poo the poopers. By all means have a social consience. It feels great to help others and we all benefit from it. But have a day off. Enjoy yourself without feeling guilty once in a while. Even the most ardent nay-sayers occasionaly say yay. Don't they?

And sorry I am a day late, but, happy thanksgiving to EVERYONE.


:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:59 AM

You should do a little more research about this day, seek out the history of it, then put yourself in the shoes of the Native Americans and see it from their side....perhaps.

Nowt wrong with celebrating family, harvests etc...but there's a GREAT deal wrong in rejoicing over a day which for so many Indigenous People of America causes great offence and upset....

It could be remedied in an instant, of course, simply by Obama saying that Thanks should be included in this day for the fact that the Native Americans are STILL HERE, after all they suffered.

Of course, that will make the turkey a little harder to swallow, but at least celebrating this fact would go a long way to offering the hand of peace and love out, which the Native Americans, by the way, are trying to do in so many instances...

Of course, the main reason, imo, that America is so shit-scared of REALLY APOLOGIZING, from the heart and soul is because of all that Stolen Land which they may have to start giving back, let alone the lawsuits over the Boarding Schools and so very much more...

Just like the Aussies didn't actually want to apologize to the Aboriginies, shit-scared of the legal ramifications again....They DID eventually do it, made a wonderful apology too, even celebrate it every year, but life for many Aboriginal People is EXACTLY the same as it was before....

Still, never mind, open up the wine, take the turkey out of the oven and put the Thanksgiving Cards up, next to the Celebrate Columbus Day ones and party, party, party.......

I'm GLAD the Native Americans are shouting out 'ENOUGH!' now..and I'll do all I can to help their voices be heard..


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

No argument here. The first thing the Pilgrims did was raid the winter food supply of the natives, then they hanged 3 Quakers for non conformity in this new land of religious freedom. Or was it the other way round, I forget.

There is not enough evidence to keep a white man in prison for shooting an FBI agent, but Peltier is not white.
We are not ALL blind to our imperfections.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:25 PM

Tell them Lizzie!!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

Oh, God, not again......


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:11 PM

The Native Americans taught the English settlers in America all about agriculture, and survival in the so-called "New World" which is an offensive term since Native Americans inhabited the land for longer than the white man.

The legend of Thanksgiving is as valuable as George Washington's cherry tree.

It's an excuse for people to stuff themselves with unhealthy garbage and celebrate the fact that they have more food than the rest of undernourished countries.

The "turkey thing" is abominable, being a Vegan, that's my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM

Greg, just so you know, I didn't start this thread, it was started by a Mudcat Mod, who took my original post out of the 'What Are You Doing For Thanksgiving' thread, I guess 'cos I was upsetting a few too many folks discussing their turkeys....

Hence, this thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM

Does everyone here realise that the 'Native Americans' in question are actually Asian immigrants? Research has recently shown that many of the so called indigenous peoples of North America came over the ice from Eurasia to the western continent in the last ice age. Research does include DNA sampling and proves a common root.

What happened to the people they displaced? Who knows. Probably massacred or wiped out by displacement, starvation and slavery. Ring any bells?

Oh, one thing the research does show. They are definitely Indians...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:47 PM

Now, tha knows, Lizzie, that the Wampanoag had their problems at the hands of subjects of the British Crown, as did the Pequots & the other New England groups. You might want to take it up with James I & Charles I, rather than President Obama?

While we're on the subject of atrocities committed against indigenous populations, how about you take up the history and the cause of the victims of the variouis British colonial & later genocides & atrocities & etc. in India, Australia, Canada, Africa, Central America, the Carribean, Ireland, Borneo & on & on & on.

I'm sure that their descendants would be chuffed to have you take up their cause as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM

White or dark meat Greg?

I prefer the dark as it is moister with, I think, moree flavor. Then again, I'm not all that big on the turkey but all the side stuff is great. Of course, I want the damn turkey for all the leftover dishes such as Turkey Pot Pie and Kentucky Hot Brown.....my two personal favorites.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:11 PM

Kentucky Hot Brown. Are you a Kentuckian too?
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:21 PM

Well, with me its a toss-up, Spaw. I like both, actually. Now, the stuffing, creamed onions, sweet potatoes, pumpkin & pecan pies & all such- I'm with ya there. Better than the bird.

A Happy Thanksgiving to you & yours & try not to kill too many Native Americans, OK?

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:35 PM

Funny you should mention Australia, Greg...
EVERY time I raise the story of the Aboriginies on the Support Chief Raoni page (which covers the troubles being caused to many Indigenous People around the world) I *always* get The Racist Bastards coming on, without fail!

It doesn't happen with any other country, but WHAM, I mention the Aboriginies and in they fly..

There are some very nasty and very racist pages in FB about Aboriginal People...I've tried to get them banned, along with so very many other folks, but somehow they just remain there. They're causing a lot of upset to many from Australia, both Aboriginal and White.....

And I've said many times over that the British Government should issue many apologies for our Sociopathic Forefathers and the terrible damage they did... Can't get me for that one, Greg, you'll need to try harder....

Also, I've shout out on behalf of the indigenous peoples of Australia, Native America and The Amazon Rainforest, so how about YOU shouting out about the others on your list, for I'm only one person and I'm already trying to deal with over 25,000 people on Raoni's page, thinking up ways to get them to share information around the planet..

You should start your own pages up, let me have them and I'll get them shared out for you....I'll even think up some photo ideas for you to share, as that's what people share out the most...photos with info on...

Like:

this one

and this one

AND...this one!

The first one I added the info about Leonard Peltier to, where he'd written a letter concerning Columbus Day...It's had over 3,000 shares now..REALLY pleased with that..

The second one is Dilma Rousseff and The Olympic Rings, an idea I had recently, as I want to blast her into oblivion over Rio 2016...so I told someone what I wanted and he made it for me, on the other side of the planet. Isn't the internet bloody wonderful! That's just broken the 1,000 mark now...

And the final one I'm so chuffed about I can barely speak at times, for that's the one for Chief Raoni and the Rainforest and it's had over 8,500 shares now..and I've seen it being used as people's facebook page photo too, so I'm thrilled! That too was made for me by someone else once I'd sent her the words and main photo over. She too did a brilliant job, from thousands of miles away.

You'll find many people who'll want to help you. All you have to do is ask, Greg...

Have a good evening...and don't forget your stuffing...for your er............turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM

Aborigines..
Aborigines...
Aborigines....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

Whoopee, Lizzie- and when are you going to stop playing with your computer and actually DO something to help your Native American pets?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

Bless Lizzie's soul. It's high time somebody spoke out.
Will Prez al-Obama listen?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:13 AM

Europeans colonize. They slaughter and enslave. It's part of who they are. You don't condemn cats for killing do you?
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:30 AM

Europeans colonize. They slaughter and enslave.

Ghengis Khan was European? Wow! The Ottoman Empire? The Qing and Yang Dynasties? The Abbasid Caliphate?

Don't take my word for it - Everyone would colonise, slaughter and enslave given half the chance - See List of Worlds largest empires


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:49 AM

True. We humans are bastards when it comes down to it. Bastards.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM

I *am* helping, Greg..
Whatyoudoin'?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: ragdall
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:30 AM

Lizzie, (and others)
If you haven't seen it, you might find the Australian film, "BabaKiueria", interesting? It's available as a video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHK308_MTiU

rags


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:36 AM

Helping 'cause you have a zillion FarceBook "friends" & 'likes" pn your web page? Don't think so. Let me know when you get to South Dakota.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

I understand the first president who pardoned a turkey was Abraham Lincoln, and he meant it as a joke. It must have been pretty funny, the first time. Now it has degenerated into a boring ritual.

Lincoln, by the way, did it at Christmas, not Thanksgiving. There was no official Thanksgiving then.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM

Almost. If the pardoning of the Christmas Turkey is true- there is some difference of opinion on this - Abe just misssed, since Lincoln proclaimed a national Thanksgiving Day, to be celebrated on the final Thursday in November 1863, from which the modern holiday evolved.
No Pilgrims Need Apply.

Proclaimation available here:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/thanks.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:01 PM

He was such a loudmouthed showoff. Blowhard.
=(:-( O)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

Well, whatever it is....Lincoln is doing pretty well in theaters right now or at least better than in 1865............


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:01 PM

And Abe's doin a real shitload better than he was doin' in 1866, Spaw!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:53 PM

"...The first Thanksgiving Day did occur in the year 1637, but it was nothing like our Thanksgiving today. On that day the Massachusetts Colony Governor, John Winthrop, proclaimed such a "Thanksgiving" to celebrate the safe return of a band of heavily armed hunters, all colonial volunteers. They had just returned from their journey to what is now Mystic, Connecticut where they massacred 700 Pequot Indians. Seven hundred Indians - men, women and children - all murdered....."


Taken from here

Greg, I'm not sure which part you don't understand...
The folks on my page aren't just 'facebook non-entities', they are deeply determined people who are out to change the world. Over 3,000 of them came over from the Occupy Wall Street page last year....

They phone Embassies, share out one helluva lot of information, ring up The White House, if I ask them, on behalf of Leonard, they phone up Norte Energia, the banks concerned in financing Belo Monte etc.etc.etc...Hell,they even made a video! Nadine, from Lebanon made it, and many of them were actually in it, after they'd sent their film to her and she put it all together. Norte Energia got to hear about it and were hopping mad too...(YAYYY!)

...and they have helped hugely in signing and sharing petitions and donating for the Ecocide campaign and the Save Pe'Sla one too...

And before you poopoo petitions, did you know that Rousseff ONLY backed down over the shocking situation regarding the Guarani-Kaiowa tribe a few weeks back PURELY because of the petition that whizzed around the planet in days??????? The tribe had said they wanted to die, altogether, rather than be forced off their land, so she backed down...

Hopefully, she'll back down over Belo Monte too eventually, for she's have it built illegally....

Some folks even want to get down there, have done demonstrations in their countries etc...

South Dakota? Nothing I'd like more than to take Richard Branson to Pine Ridge and get him to sort it all out, get decent food in there, decent shops, swimming pool, cinema, etc..something for the young people to do, give them hope at long last.

With regard to Pe'Sla, the Great Sioux Nation has come together to raise $7.5 million of the $9 million need to buy it. The last Pe'Sla 'push' raised nearly $400,000 in around a month, from good folks all over the world and now we're trying to raise that final $1 million or so...only got 11 days left, but hopefully, somehow, the money will come from somewhere...

I wrote to the auction house when Pe'Sla was up for auction backalong, asked them to beg Mr. and Mrs. Reynolds to give the land back to the Lakota, to whom it belongs anyway....Never heard back, but a few days later they DID pull Pe'Sla out of the auction with no explanation at all. I'd imagine MANY folks wrote to them...maybe they passed the messages along? Maybe they didn't and it happened because of other reasons, but either way, to lose it now, when they are so desperately close would break their hearts....

I wrote to Paul McCartney recently, as someone asked me to, trying to raise a gig with some major stars in for Leonard..Paul donated to Pine Ridge backalong when they had the tornado rip through there causing so much damage...

Stop being so up your own arse and get helping too, for the Lakota are missing Russell Means I'd imagine and they need us all to help now!

As for Pe'Sla, well, that's in good hands and AIM are in there doing all they can do, so hopefully it WILL all come together...

And now, back to Thanksgiving which would be nice if it were turned into a special day where Thanks is Given not just for family, friends and food, but for the fact that the Native Americans are still around, still here despite all they've come through..and that is cause for celebration in itself!

Happy Native American Month too!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

As I said before , Liz - or should I say Wasichu Buffalo Woman? - way past time for you to get over how important you think you are.

Like I said- get out of cyberspace & actually do something worthwhile for the cause.

Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM

Ah, but you see, IN cyberspace, I can reach tens of thousands of people all around the world..get many to stand beside me, and piss others off.

Keep your Native American name, as I would never disrespect the Native Americans by ever taking on any part of their life. I'm not a New Age Crystal Gazer, but someone who has the Deepest Respect for a People who ARE 'Still Here' against ALL the Odds....

I'm not important at all, Greg, but I sure as hell don't let twits like you patronize me, nor criticize me for what I DO do, whilst you just hang around on messageboards wasting hours....

DO something with your Cyberspace time, because you know what, inside this screen, inside this Internet there is a Revolution happening, one that is finding its' way on to the Streets, and one where The Truth is being shared, right around the planet...

It is this that is giving the Native Americans, or American Indians as Russell preferred to be called, a VOICE at long last.

Right around the world Indigenous Peoples are coming together now finally realizing that this will give them great strength.....

They are being joined by many non-indigenous who are standing right beside them, knowing that the Indigenous Peoples of the World have the right attitude to Mother Earth. That many of them are The Caretakers of this Planet and have been so for generations...

There is a Secret War being carried out against them now, globally and they are Rising up in Anger..

So don't just celebrate your Turkey, celebrate the Indigenous People of the country you came to be born in and perhaps, LEARN from their Wisdom....

Here's Russell, from 1989, to give you a helping hand when changing the discussion around your Thanksgiving Table on Thursday...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

When you get to Rapid City, Liz, give me a call. I'll meet you & run you over to Pine Ridge & Rosebud & introduce you around.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:18 PM

I would love to do that, Greg...but as I cannot afford to get over to the States at this particular time in my life, I'll remain helping via the internet, thanks...But, I tell you what, if ever I AM able to come, take me to White Clay and let me rage at the Corporate Alcohol Bastards who are bringing Genocide to the Lakota...and I promise you I will surprise you, for any Ladylike Language will disappear when I talk to the bastards who are selling hundreds of thousands of cans of alcohol to those people, who are struggling so badly without bloody alcohol, but with it, they are being decimated!! And those bastards don't care fecking tuppence!!


And, before sitting down to your Thanksgiving Meal, please, watch this..It may well make you cry, for Aaron himself chokes back the tears many times as he speaks of the People he has come to love so dearly...

Aaron Huey speaking at TED about The Lakota

'Honour The Treaties' - Trailer for Aaron's film


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

" I'll remain helping via the internet, thanks.."

Gee thanks....

My grandmother was native American. And as far as I'm concerned Lizzie you'd be doing a lot more good if you were off stuffing your bird instead of ragging on America. Clean up England first and then we'll call you for help.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:09 PM

Kentucky Hot Browns.
Thats reason enough to have a Thanksgiving Day,

Hey Spaw - post your recepie again in case anybody missed it the
first time!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:10 PM

One more time: get over yourself, Liz. You're as obnoxious as ever, and its getting mononotous.

No thanks, Liz - I know more - and at first hand - than you do about the Lakota & their history & plight than you will ever learn & I don't need to watch your video clips.

And when I sit down to my Thanksgiving meal I will most certainly NOT be thinking of you and your rivers of self-serving bullshit.

Call me when you get to Rapid City, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:37 PM

You watch your mouth, Greg. Mind your manners.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:23 AM

Should negroes celebrate Thankgiving? Should they be grateful for the slaveships? The 400 years of degradation? I'm confused.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:32 AM

Kentucky Hot Brown. I'm from there you know.
Brown


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:37 AM

Keep it up, Henry. Enough spurious nonsense about who should and should not celebrate Thanksgiving and more people will realise what a riduculous concept holding holidays to ransom for political means is, In fact, I propose that the only people who should celebrate Thanksgiving are Quakers and the direct decendents of those who received their first free turket dinner off the Indians.

Yea, thinking about it what has it got to do with anyone but them? All those freeloading Native Americans, Poles, Jews, Irish, Italians, Germans, Blacks, Hispanics and sundry ne'er do wells should go and find their own holidays! Bugger off, the lot of you!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:56 AM

Well, if I get this kind of hatred from you, Greg, god knows what you'd say to those on Pine Ridge who, I'm sure won't be celebrating Thanksgiving Day for the same reasons you might be...

but hey, never mind, you know far more than me right....

And if you can't even be bothered to watch the videos I put up earlier, well, it shows me just what kind of pretentious prat you are...You don't wanna listen to Aaron Huey, then fine, stick your turkey on your head and have a good day...

Wesley, if your Mum was Native American, then I think she'd be hanging her head at your words there...I'll keep on keeping on with what I'm doing thanks, and I've said many times over that the UK needs to apologise for all the shite they took around the world..

Enjoy your meal...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

The British have a history of telling people (other than them) in places they've colonized how to live and behave.* Lizzie is just continuing the tradition. I just don't think she will ever figure it out. Not that tendency to meddle, nor the fact that the only thing you change by pissing people off is creating a group of pissed off people who will no longer listen to you.

You'll get a lot of attention and you get to avoid taking care of business in your personal world for a while though. Have fun with the dominant/submissive games.

It's just another version of "holier-than-thou".

It's impersonal. You get to talk about your ideals and people who are not your people in a land that is not your land, far, far away from your own life.

Or perhaps you think your attempt to shame people will do something positive, but it doesn't make sense to me... (I note that "making sense" is probably not one of your main goals.)

* All nations with the upper hand do that. The British were prominent in America though, and Lizzie's carrying their standard in this thread. Same know-it-all shit/different venue.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:41 AM

You people need to free Scotland and Ireland. England needs to quit meddling.
Bastards.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

KRINKLE......We were talking aabout Hot Brown here a dozen years before you arrived. I've eaten it for years all over Kentucky and Tennessee. Everyone seems to have their own ttake on the original recipe and I started sort of collecting them and adding to my own......just experimenting. I kept the parts I liked and threw out what I didn't. And now, like most cooks, I think I make a killer Brown. That's the beauty of such a great dish.......It can be done in many ways and still retain the essence of the original.

Here's mine posted back in 2000.....Gets pretty good reviews {:<))

BTW Krinkly.......Somewhere else you asked if I was in KY. No, in Ohio. But I lived in both Kentucky and Tennesee for a good while and went to college at Berea. I love both states but I'm a Buckeye, born and bred.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:08 AM

I used to see the Brown Hotel from the highway when I visited as a child. I was born in Louisville.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

I've never eaten it before. Maybe I will this year.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:06 AM

I really am confused now. Why do the American Indians need to free Scotland and Ireland?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM

There is only one way this thread can go...round and round.

Just curious, Lizzie, do you know the real meaning and the origin of the word "Decimated"? I dare say most of us don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:46 AM

I would imagine Kendall that it was a reduction of manpower by 10% and moved to mean something divided into ten pieces. Kinda' like the time your dick was decimated by the Clap and you lost a tenth of an inch. Now that wasn't a big deal but had it happened to me the reduction would have been 3 inches! Of course I would have been left with 27 inches so that'd still work for me.

When we went about decimating Lizzie's Injuns we actually killed them dead which was much worse than losing chunks of your dick to the clap........then again.............But one thing I am sure you are wrong about Kendall and that's your premise this thread will only go round and round. See, when I get involved it can also go straight down into the gutter!!!! Not a bad option ya' gotta' admit.....



Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

Hey, Liz- tell ya what.

Why don't you give me the names and contact information for a dozen or so of your Native American close pals on Pine Ridge & Rosebud and maybe the same number from the Cheyenne & Crow Reservations and throw in another dozen of the Zuni and Apache and I'll contact them all and ask them how much they appreciate your help and post the answers here verbatim?

Whaddaya say?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

Does decadent mean you only have 10 teeth then?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM

Leonard Peltier, convicted in the 1975 execution-style murders of FBI Agents Ron Williams and Jack Coler.

Peltier was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, plus seven years for his armed escape in 1979.

Leonard Peltier Should Never Receive a Presidential Pardon

Peltier was fairly tried and fairly convicted. This is the conclusion of every federal judge who's reviewed the case.

Bragging about killing Ron Williams, Peltier's exact words: "The motherfu—er was begging for his life but I shot him anyway".

The agents were killed with a high velocity, small caliber weapon fired at point blank range. Williams attempted to shield his face from the blast with his right hand, turning his head slightly to the right. The murderer placed the barrel of his gun against Williams' hand and fired. The bullet ripped through Williams' hand, into his face, and carried away the back of his head. He was killed instantly. The murderer shot Coler, who was unconscious, across the top of the head. The bullet carried away a part of his forehead at the hairline. The shot was not fatal, however. The murderer then lowered his rifle a few inches and shot Coler through the jaw. The shell exploded inside his head, killing him instantly.

He fled to the Rosebud Reservation.

Peltier had reason to believe that the agents were looking for him, rather than Jimmy Eagle. He stipulated at trial that there was an arrest warrant outstanding, charging him with attempted murder. Upon his arrest in Canada months later for the murders of the agents, Peltier remarked that the two agents were shot when they came to arrest him.

After a twenty-five day trial, Peltier was convicted by a jury of both counts of first-degree murder.

* Milwaukee, Wisconsin Incident

At the trial, the parties stipulated to the following facts: On November 22, 1972, Peltier was charged with attempted murder in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He was arrested, pleaded not guilty, and was released on bond. On July 29, 1974, he failed to appear for trial on the charge, his bond was forfeited, and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest. Peltier was aware of the outstanding arrest warrant for attempted murder

* On November 14, 1975, Oregon State Police stopped two vehicles near Ontario, Oregon: a motor home and a Plymouth station wagon. Peltier was one of the occupants of the motor home, and fled the scene, turning to fire at the state trooper. Upon searching both vehicles, Oregon authorities recovered from the motor home Special Agent Coler's revolver in a paper bag bearing Peltier's thumbprint, and from the station wagon several shell casings that had been fired from Coler's revolver.

Peltier fled the scene, turning to fire at the arresting officer, the government introduced testimony that the following items were recovered upon a search of the vehicle:

i. fourteen firearms, eight of which had obliterated serial numbers, and numerous boxes of shells; nine hand grenades and Finally, and most important, evidence linking Peltier to the murders was discovered upon a search of the vehicle from which he fled. The presence in the motor home of Agent Coler's revolver, in a bag having Peltier's thumbprint on it, w


* On September 5, 1975, F.B.I. agents went to the Rosebud Indian Reservation, located about 180 miles east of the Pine Ridge Reservation, to arrest five persons charged with assault with a deadly weapon. While conducting a search incident to the arrest of several persons, 11 they recovered Special Agent Williams' .357 service revolver and several rifles linked ballistically to the case. Testimony revealed that the following items were found:

a. seven firearms, several of which had obliterated serial numbers (the serial numbers on Special Agent Williams' service revolver and on Ex. 29-A, the M-1 .30 caliber Gerand rifle which Butler carried on the day of the murders were obliterated);

b. a knapsack full of dynamite and hand grenades;

c. a suitcase full of blasting caps;

d. a bag containing spent rounds and live ammunition for various calibers;

e. walkie-talkie radios.



* On February 7, 1976, Peltier was arrested in Canada. The arresting officer testified that at the time of his arrest, Peltier had in his possession the .3030 rifle stolen in Oregon, other property stolen from the Oregon ranch house, two pistols, and an M-1 semiautomatic rifle.

From a letter by
Former FBI Agent in Charge - Joseph H. Trimbach dated December 3, 2009

I was there that day, responding to the frantic radio calls from 27-year-old Ron Williams after he and his partner, 28-year-old Jack Coler, came under fire from shooters well outside the range of their service revolvers. Exposed in an open field, the men were caught virtually defenseless. Peltier, at the time a wanted fugitive, later admitted that he mistakenly believed the Agents were there to arrest him. The evidence shows that Peltier fired from a distance of over 200 yards from the cover of a large elm tree. At least a hundred shell casings matching Peltier's assault rifle were found at the scene. Other shooters joined in, all aiming at Ron and Jack as they sought cover behind their vehicles. Over 125 bullet holes were found in their Bureau cars.


July 27, 2009 - there was a parole hearing. The parole board found him to be undeserving, defiant, and completely without remorse. Like every judge who has reviewed the Peltier murder case, the board saw through his phony cloak of victimhood.

Peltier was fairly tried and fairly convicted. This is the conclusion of every federal judge who's reviewed the case. Since his conviction in 1977, the evidence against Peltier has been repeatedly confirmed, expanded, and corroborated.

There are other murders in which he may have been involved. In one of these cases, Peltier interrogated a young woman, Anna Mae Aquash, by putting a loaded gun in her mouth.

People who have been fooled by the Peltier propaganda machine need to educate themselves on the facts: United States Court

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


Our own little tastey pastey is wanting to stir up violence. What happened to the Rosebud sacred lands fundraising? I encourage you to read A.I.M. - American Indian Mafia.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:33 PM

Get over it!

native Americans took the land from the earth mother, plants and animals etc....

then they started to kill and eat

then started pollution

We can thank the native americans for beginning the polution of the new world

then they went about taking land from each other before any european got there!

Sinnerss all just have thanksgiving that we survived!

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard.
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:56 PM

"You people need to free Scotland and Ireland. England needs to quit meddling."

Scotland is free! In what way are we not? The debate over Scotland's future is basicall an internal debate within Scotland. The people of Scotland will decide whether they remain within the union or leave it. Either way it is a free choice. You seem to suggest that it is the English who would decide whether we should or shouldn't be in the union. Catch up. They don't get a vote on the issue unless they physically live in Scotland.

One could argue that the unionist majority in Northern Ireland is a gerrymandered majority but again things have moved on. Referendums in Northern Ireland and the Republic backed (overwhelmingly the case in the Republic) the idea that what happens to Northern Ireland status is up to the people of Northern Ireland and no-one else. Why the need to blame the English for everything? Incidentally I would also use that argument in defence of Americans. It is absurd to castigate modern Americans for what the Pilgrim Fathers did or didn't do :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard.
=(:-( 0)

Guess ya ain't been listening to yerself, then, Krunkle.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

I do...they lined up soldiers and shot every 10th one.

Anyway, I would love to see the date for Thanksgiving changed and perhaps change the focus a bit. More around end of October...could occasionally ocnflict with Halloween though if you weren't careful. Don't want them on the same day.

Lizzie, please PM me. I want to get the lullaby CD to Lakota children. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:22 PM

You run a very close second, Greg.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:26 PM

We think of Scotland and Ireland, Canada and Australia, New Zealand as being crushed under the iron high heels of Queen Lizzie.
Glad to think things ain't so bad after all.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

We think of Scotland and Ireland, Canada and Australia, New Zealand as being crushed under the iron high heels of Queen Lizzie.

Who are 'we', Henry. Not one person I know from the US is that stupid. Where are you from? I think you just will never appreciate the number of things wrong with that statement. Unless you are reffering to another Queen Lizzie by any chance..? In which case I bow to your heightened sense of irony :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

Stupid is a little harsh. Unenlightened? Ignorant?
Irony? Yes.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:45 PM

>>>The British have a history of telling people (other than them) in places they've colonized how to live and behave.* Lizzie is just continuing the tradition. I just don't think she will ever figure it out.<<<

Seems I've stirred up a White Thanksgiving Hornet's Nest, huh?

Jeri, read my earlier posts. I'm all for the British government apologizing for what our Sociopathic forefathers did...

I guess you guys will take solace from the fact that America issued an apology to the Native Americans, whilst completely ignoring the fact that most people aren't even AWARE this was done. This being because the bastards who issued it, Obama included, hid it amongst a whole pile of inconsequential shit they issued....Of course,they're shit-scared of having to give back much of the land they stole and put right the Treatries that have been dishonoured in every way...

Greg, take a look on my Facebook page, you'll find a whole lotta people there....

Gargoyle, well, I never knew you were an FBI arse-licker until this day. I've 'spoken' with Trimbach and his buddy Ed Woods, and their 'groupie' Looking Back Woman who promotes theh Trimbach Boysies book on her vast and numerous websites...If you look deeper you'll find Denise Pictou Maloney (Anna Mae's daughter) and the dreaded Paul (spit) Demain linked in with them too. They do EVERYTHING they can to implode AIM from the inside out..and I'd imagine that Woods and Trimbach are sitting back laughing their racist little heads off in absolute glee.

I suggest you find out the REAL truth about Leonard...and if you think he had a fair trial, then you take my breath away. You do KNOW about Myrtle Poor Bear's testimony,do you? You do KNOW the FBI threatened to remove her children unless she said what they wanted, that they also threatened and coerced other witnesses into making false statements, withheld evidence which would have proved Leonard's innocence, resited the trial to a town known for it's racist views towards Native Americans and hauled an 'FBI friendly' judge out of retirement for his trial, amongst a whole pile of other shite?

Do you know the FBI, to this day, still have around 100,000 documents pertaining to Leonard and his trial which they REFUSE to release, even though they now come under the Freedom of Information Act....

You'll also find the 'mother fucker begging for his life' and 'gun in her mouth' story come from the gang mentioned above..

Please, at least do me the honour of finding out BOTH sides of The Truth here and figuring out that the FBI were after Leonard and the main leaders of AIM long before the shooting happened....

Read M Weslely Swearingen's (ex-FBI agent)book 'FBI Secrets - An Agent's Expose' and hear him say how agents were told to arrest the leaders of AIM on ANYTHING they could make stick, no matter how small..and to keep arresting them, over and over, until no court in the land would grant bail..!

J Edgar Hoover was the most unpleasant, lying, cheating, criminal, racist and fascist bastard going and he created a bureau of like-wise people. Wes Swearingen left because he could no longer stand what they were doing as agents....

Read up about Jean Seberg and how their COINTELPRO neutralizing tactics led to her suicide. You'll even find their memos about her online, where they say to basically take her down, simply because she DARED to fall in love with one of the guys from The Black Panthers, becoming pregnant by him..and they trashed her, EVERYWHERE!

Read up about Elmer Geronimo Pratt and how he too was kept in prison for almost 30 years, and how the SAME Bastard Agent who framed Elmer was put in charge of Leonard's case!!

Then realize that almost EVERY bad word you read about Leonard Peltier, on the internet, comes from the bastards you choose to support, who have many sites, in many names, who FLOOD Youtube with nasty, twisted videos and cover Youtube pages in their sick comments...

Read up how they took out full page adverts to neutralize Leonard yet AGAIN when Clinton almost pardoned him, threatening to go on a country-wide strike and cause chaos...until Clinton backed down...

And THEN, ASK YOURSELF ***WHY*** THE FBI ARE SO SHIT SCARED OF LEONARD BEING SET FREE!

It ain't rocket science.

And I apologise to some posters above, for I hadn't realized that Thanksgiving Day is a time to crack jokes about Native Americans...not that I'd do that ever, but it seems that some do..

And now, I'm off to read 'Ojibwa Warrior' and get the story of Dennis Banks 'out there' a litte more...

Oh, and of course, Pete Seeger, bless him, has given his blessing to the new film about Leonard 'Wind Chases The Sun' becoming part of the advertising campaign for it, urging people to help set Leonard free....

Enjoy your turkey...and don't forget to add a large helping of Genocide Jelly to your plates to make it slip down a little easier...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:52 PM

Tell them! You make me proud!!!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:55 PM

Oh..and I should add that poor Jean Seberg was on the FBI's list not just because she fell in love with a Black Panther, but because she also stood beside many of the Movements the FBI loathed, being a kind and sweet woman who stood beside those who were struggling in America..

The FBI should be disbanded, as should the BIA.

You'll find many links here, on the lefthand side, as well as the radio interview that NPR did about this 'covert genocide' still going on today.

NPR Radio and Internet link to their Native American Foster Care Story


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:03 PM

Shameful!!!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM

Lizzie is screaming so loud that I can't really hear what she's saying.

. . . and that yappy little dog that keeps following her around. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:10 PM

Greg, take a look on my Facebook page, you'll find a whole lotta people there....

That's your fake cyber-buddies, Liz - lets see some real live humans & I'll contact 'em, OK?

OK?

I'm waiting........


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:35 PM

Henry - my eyes are opened. Well done :-)

I also add find it is intiguing that Facebook is the spawn of Satan when used against certain parties. Yet, when used by those same parties for their own ends, it seems to be the saviour of the universe.

Ah well. Such is life. Once more I quote the famous Lewis Carroll line

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

From this conversation between Alice and Himpty Dumpy. How like a lot of these threads it seems to be :-)



DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

Real, Greg...contact 'em if you so wish.

Some 'Facts' to put in the Thanksgiving Crackers


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:29 PM

"We think of Scotland and Ireland, Canada and Australia, New Zealand as being crushed under the iron high heels of Queen Lizzie."

Whether Scotland remains in the Union or not and whether it retains the monarchy or not are actually two seperate issues. The shared monarchy comes about from the Union of the Crowns in 1603 when James VI of Scotland inherited the English and Irish thrones on the death of Elizabeth I of England. The United Kingdom of Great Britain came about in 1707 a century later when both the Scottish and English (Wales was legally regarded as part of England at that time)kingdoms were wound up and a new united kingdom called Great Britain was formed. The current Scottish SNP govt wish to dissolve the 1707 Union of the Parliaments but they are not actually a Republican party. If they secured a YES vote in the referendum the Queen would remain as Head of State in Scotland. Some people in North America (and I apologise to most who probably are sensible enough) have some funny ideas as to the internal politics in GB. There is a debate over which is the best way for Scotland to proceed. As part of the UK within the EU or as an independent and seperate state within the EU - but nobody is suppressing us and we don't need to be freed!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:52 PM

No, Liz, thats not what I asked for, that's just more of your self-serving, tap-dancing BS.

Give me the names and contact info as I asked -

Or admit that what you're pushing is 14 Karat Bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:30 AM

It's quite easy to locate the names of the Native Americans on my page, because...they have Native Americans names, for the most part....

Doh!

You wanna do it, then go ahead and do it, but you do it yourself, mate...You'll have to 'friend' them first as FB has it set so that any message sent by a non-friend goes into an inbox named 'other' which most folks don't know about. Some people have it fixed so that anyone can write on their wall though, so you could also try that way...

And WHAT '14 carat bullshit' are you talking about? I gave you the details above. It's not my fault you choose not to take any notice, probably because you're severely pissed off with the fact that I'm honest and have told you to go right ahead..

You could also write to those behind the official Leonard Peltier page too...Again, you'll find it online...

You having Jerk Soup for Thanksgiving, at all, Greg?


And again, don't call me Liz. You don't have my permission and therefore every time you choose to do so from now on just accentuates what a prat you are.

Only a very, very few people in my life, those whom I respect and care about deeply call me Liz.

Trust me, you are *not* one of them.
Thank you
And hey, it's *almost* Thanksgiving!


The National Day of Mourning:
'We Are Not Vanishing - We Are Not Conquered'


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:55 AM

There are plenty of brown sandwiches to go around. The big devour the small, the rich devour the poor and the strong devour the weak. It has always been so and always will.

Not that anyone cares, but "Decimate" came from the emperor Caligula. When one of his legions refused to obey an order he had every 10th man killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Keep tap-dancing, Liz - those are mouse-clicks, and fake "friends", not people.

Guess you just can't produce what was requested, which comes as absolutely no surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:51 PM

Lizzie, I've ignored this thread till now. I know you mean well, but you conflate so many different groups and issues into these topics that you shoot yourself in the foot.

When you're visiting these US sites online you get a partial view of a lot of topics, like looking through a keyhole, and they aren't all weighted equally. For those of us who live here it is a lot of work telling the parties apart - for someone an ocean away the nuances are surely lost in translation.

Wesley S posted

" I'll remain helping via the internet, thanks.."

Gee thanks....

My grandmother was native American. And as far as I'm concerned Lizzie you'd be doing a lot more good if you were off stuffing your bird instead of ragging on America. Clean up England first and then we'll call you for help.


What he said. Lizzie, I know you mean well, but you don't seem to be able to filter all of it, you absorb all of this stuff, add a dose of passion, then dump it all into a Mudcat thread and verbally bludgeon the descendants of people who set a lot of this in motion.

There are many of us who are fully aware of how things stand and have acted in our own way to offer help. If that information isn't shared here with you it's is because you will always find it wanting and be critical of anything short of all white faces abandoning the continent. So no one who is seriously interested in these themes is going to talk much about this on your threads.

Like Wesley said, look around the UK and find one of your own messes to clean up. Aren't there downtrodden people in the UK where you can focus your attention and perhaps actually make a difference? All of the strife you cause at Mudcat as you chastise everyone here is hypocritical. You complain we haven't corrected our indigenous social ills - why not lobby on behalf of UK Travelers, or work to free the Scots. Do good works on behalf of the immigrants from former British colonies who live in slums across the UK. Is Wales lobbying for freedom? Surely there is something closer to home you can turn your energy and attention to?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:02 PM

By the way, Liz - you don't have MY permission to call me "Greg".


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:57 PM

Well, I certainly don't know that she "means well" at all.

Appears more like she means to tell everyone how absolutely wonderful she is for messing about with her myriad cyber-"causes" of which her pet Indians are only one of more than a dozen, and show the rest of us lesser beings the way and the light - while looking down her nose at us.

In addition, she wants us all to realize what a martyr she is to those "causes" she electronically espouses and types and clicks and "friends" her fingers to the bone for - poor, pitiful Liz! - likely suffering from a Munchausen Syndrome-like affliction directed at herself.

I'd be interested in any hard evidence that she actually "means well".


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:07 PM

I still don't understand how the fate of the American Indian Movement makes a lie of my Mohawk neighbours' Thanksgiving dinner.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:32 PM

Well said, Stilly, but there are a couple of things that need putting strait. Firstly - as said before - the Scots are free, as are the Irish as are the Welsh. They have been free in the sense you mean for a long time. The oppressed peoples of the British empire are, as you so astutely point out, the ex-colonials who now work for a pittance in sweat shops. Unfortunately the first colony of the British Empire was England :-( It was never a racial thing. It was all to do with class and the Victorians, who underlined and emboldened the word with a vengance, surpressed those who could not fight back mercilessly.

I mentioned in another thread the starving mill workers of Lancashire who refused to work with Southern US cotton in support of the Union and anti-slavery. There were also the pit workers who went on strike for 10% and were thrown out of their jobs. No, not a 10% rise - They wanted to limit their pay CUT to 10% as opposed to the 25% the owners got. I can link as many instances as Liz can if you so desire but that seems to be such a stupid thing to do.

All these people were surpressed but, unfortunately, they do not have the romantic kudos of the 'Noble Savage'. Their is still a class war going on. There is still oppression and the sort of class wars that went on then. To an ardent royalist such as Liz however this cannot possibly be the truth. It is much easier to believe that the white man stole from the redskin than it is to believe that her precious nobility are the very ones who set ordinary working men against each other in an endevour to create more wealth.

If anyone needs to apologise it is the royals. Not your very admirable, to me anyway, president.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

Lizzie, you don't make me uncomfortable because you are speaking the truth.
Thanksgiving has a religious slant to it. Why not be thankful all year around?

The idea of stuffing yourself with turkey and all the other unhealthy ingredients for a dinner is repulsive to me. How does this indicate any kind of reasonable "thanksgiving"?
It's the worst kind of conspicuous consumption.

The White Man has appropriated much from Native Americans while enslaving them; the history is there. Agriculture is a big one. The Iroquois Longhouse is another, a form of real democracy in action.

Leave it to Lincoln, who didn't respect Native Americans, to proclaim this holiday on a certain date.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:47 PM

Lincoln was a bastard.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 02:56 PM

"or work to free the Scots"

I wish someone would free me from all these people who seem to think we need freeing! Again in what way are we not free? We form part of a union with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. We are free in the same way that Californians or Texans are in that they are part of a union too. In fact it could be argued that we are more free than Americans as it is recognised here that if a majority of people living in Scotland decide that we should leave the said union then we have the right to leave. I understand that principle isn't quite as clear cut as far as US states are concerned though corret me if I'm wrong! The comparing of Scots and Native Americans is really silly. Over the past 20 years especially Scots have had an influence on the UK govt way in excess of what they should have had per head of population. The first Blair govt in particular was completely dominated by Scots. Whatever else she has said or done the idea that Lizzy should work to help free the Scots is absolutely ludicrous. The Scots will decide their own future and are not in need of anyone else coming along to free us. Jeez!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:00 PM

We only want to help. We've been horribly oppressed by the British too.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:04 PM

Lincoln was one of the greatest men in our history.

By the way, who said one must STUFF themselves with turkey?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:45 PM

The United States has been horribly oppressed by Britain? Really? That's news to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:49 PM

Giving Thanks is common to all cultures.


Psalm 100 (by David circa 1000 BC)

Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
Know ye that the Lord is God.
It is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves.
We are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise.
Be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
For the Lord is good.
His mercy is everlasting.
And His truth endureth to all generations.
(KJV)


Quran 2:172 (Mohammad circa 610)
O you who believe, eat from the good things we provided for you,
and be thankful to GOD,if you do worship Him alone.



--Sebastian, Twelfth Night, Act 3, scene 3 (Shakespeare circa 1601)
"I can no other answer make but thanks,
And thanks, and ever thanks..."


Geshe Langri Tangpa (1054-1123), student of Drom Tonpa, a chief student of Atisha
Whenever I meet a person of bad nature.
Who is overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering,
I will hold such a rare one dear,
As if I had found a precious treasure.

Sincerely thankful this season,
Gargoyle

Happiness is a choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

Hi Charmion.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:12 PM

As things modernize . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:15 PM

The relative positions of (a) the English (b) the Scottish (c) the Welsh and (d) (some of) the Irish can be debated at length. There can be no real doubt that both Romany and non-Romany travellers are much oppressed in the UK and both parts of Ireland - and indeed in large parts of Europe. The UK has done its level best to disadvantage those here (and those who wish to come here) from its former colonies. Only this week the courts have poured further vilification on those who legally represent immigrants about to be deported. I was picked on by a judge for objecting to his discrimination against a barrister of Pakistani origin whom I had instructed. I won, but at some cost.

But some people are beyond rational discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

Leave it to Lincoln, who didn't respect Native Americans, to proclaim this holiday on a certain date.

Despite some very stiff competition, that has to be the most idiotic & ignorant thing I've seen posted here in quite a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:27 PM

S'ok, Bruce - those are obviously Pakistani turkeys. Or maybe insurgent turkeys. Or maybe Socialist Obama turkeys. Or....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:34 PM

Whole lot a gobblin goin on.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:56 PM

Mmmmmm - Goblin. When we was first wed me and Mrs G used to love Goblin Puds. Yes, and sorry, USers if that has a different meaning there but at least it gives you a laugh:-)

Anyway - The one in the link looks quite posh. The 1973 version was in a little cylindrical tin which you pierced and could boil in the pan! Yummy with chips, peas, gravy, bread and butter and a cup of tea. Now THERE'S a thanksgiving dinner that no-one can complain about! Except Goblins...

Gnomeson #3 has also recently discovered Goblin burgers in gravy in a tin. Fabulous heated through in a saucepan and served on a crusty roll (No, that isn't sexual either. Stop it at once!) Jamie Oliver eat your heart out :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:25 PM

Allan, I was looking at the distinction between nations, not states. It was my understanding that Scotland wanted to be separate from England in the way Canada or Mexico are separate from the United States. Not the way California is a different entity than Texas but both as part of the United States. I haven't looked closely into the matter, however. I'm content to let the bunch of you sort it out yourselves. Wouldn't it be silly of me to make a big stink about your politics from here, based upon the oddball snippets I could find if I googled a few keywords to do with Scotland and freedom.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:58 PM

How about Reconcilliation Day?

Don't forget about me......


Thank you, Stringsinger....

Maggie, does it *ever* occur to you that I should NOT be having to take up the cause of the Native Americans in the first place, because YOU folks should have taken it up centuries/decades back???????

You wanna take up the cause of the Gypsies over here? Be my guest!   I tried to raise hell over Dale Farm and got EXACTLY the same reaction from some folks over here, getting banned off the page of the Council who evicted them and banned from contacting the racist bastard of a councillor who drove their eviction through, costing the tax payer a bloody fortune and breaking up families...Most of the Travellers/Gypsies in this country are treated like scum, being pushed off the road more and more, into houses, into 'good little lives' like the rest of the 'good little citizens' becoming just as controlled as the rest of us.

I don't tell YOU who to fight for, what or who to get passionately angry over, so please, don't patronize me for being ragingly angry at the shite going down here!

IF I'm making some of you feel awkward....GOOD!!!!!!!

And what TRULY fecks me off is that the Native Americans are trying to offer that Hand of Reconcilliation out but does The Good Ol' White Man want to take it? Nope! Most of the time, he's too busy stuffing fecking turkey down his throat to even THINK that his Thanksgiving Celebration is built on Genocide, on a Holocaust which was written out of the history books until recently, on a Secret Squirrel Mass Murder and Raping of an entire Culture!

You tell me that you have exams in this and that to do with Native American history, yet here you are telling me to basically shut up, go away and talk about something else???????

Well, FECK THAT, Maggie!!!

*******IF******* you TRULY cared then you'd be standing RIGHT BESIDE ME, throwing your hands up with absolute glee that The Message was finally get out!!   

Yet you choose to try and silence me??????????????????????????????

Feck fecking Degrees and Examinations in this and that, for I pour my heart and soul into what I believe, what I have studied, discovered, been so APPALLED to discover!!

And as to the person who yet again has chosen to call me by a name which he has no right to call me by, just wait and see what Paul McCartney may soon be doing for Leonard Peltier! And nope, you ain't gonna find out anything more until I know if Paul is going to stick to his word, but his manager has sent a message to the person I wrote the letter to Paul for...and we are both *staggered* by his reply...

So shove that where the sun don't shine...and don't forget about those who truly built your country, when you sit down tomorrow..for in THEIR hands the Rivers, Land, Mountains and all Species were Respected and Mother Earth was doing superbly well..

I'll leave you with Marlon speaking one helluva lot of truth...

Marlon Brando speaks out


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM

See? Means well indeed. Poor, poor, pitiful Liz!

Ain't nobody in this wide, wide world that cares more, does more, or suffers more, or is worth more than Sufferin' Liz The Paragon.

Gimmie a 'fecking' (thanks, Liz) break.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

Goodness me. What a paragon of virtue.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:13 PM

"It was my understanding that Scotland wanted to be separate from England in the way Canada or Mexico are separate from the United States."

Some Scots want to be seperate but it is a massive jump to suggest that the country as a whole wants to be. I support independence myself but it is a debate within Scotland and it is a debate about how to best go forward - within the union or outwith the union. And it is a civilised debate with no need to demonise others despite the kind of nonsense you can find on some internet sites. The problem for the SNP is that most Scots don't appear to support independence at the moment. It has been higher and has been lower at periods but support for independence tends to be around 30% or so. Bigger numbers lean towards devo-max (ie more devolution within the union) but that is unlikely to be on the referendum at this point. Whatever happens the losing campaign will accept the democratic choice of the Scottish electorate. You get the tiny loony minority posting on youtube Braveheart videos etc but for the vast bulk of Scots it is just a democratic debate which isn't even that heated. It is our own choice though. No-one else is trying to force us to stay in the union and no-one else needs to come and free us.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:34 PM

The time has come to say fair's fair
To pay the rent, to pay our share
The time has come, a fact's a fact
It belongs to them, let's give it back


Midnight Oil, "Beds are Burning"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:54 PM

Lizzie, your cause is good, but a) you don't have all of your facts straight, and b) you come on like a shrieking harpy! You accuse, you try to assign collective guilt to people who had nothing to do with the oppression you're raging about, you call people you don't even know names.

You put people off! You express yourself so offensively that you make people angry, not about the oppression you're trying to call attention to, but at YOU!

You're doing your cause more harm than good!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:17 PM

One to share around on Facebook, for those who may so desire...Took me a while, but Marlon's words are absolutely true and should be shared around...

Happy Thanksgiving, from Russell and Marlon

Here they are, for those who are not on Facebook:

From Marlon Brando:

"I read a book called 'Indians of the Americas' and after reading the book I realized I knew *nothing* about the American Indian and that everything that we are taught about the American Indian is wr
ong, it's inaccurate and our school books are hopelessly lacking, perhaps *criminally* lacking in revealing what our relationship was with the Indian.

When we hear, as we've heard throughout all our lives, no matter how old we are, that we are a country that stands for freedom, for rightness, for justice, for everyone, it simply doesn't apply to those who are not white. It just simply doesn't apply, and we were the most rapacious, aggressive, destructive, torturing, monstruous people who swept from one coast to the other, murdering and causing mayhem among the Indians.....but...that isn't revealed 'cos we don't like that image of ourselves. We don't like to see us...we like to see ourselves as perhaps John Wayne sees us.

And also, what we've learned about the Indian has been largely taught to us by Hollywood and by motion pictures, they have educated us, so we naturally believe that when the Indians came, that the wagons circled and the Indian rode around and subjected themselves to terrible fire and died at a ratio of 65 to 1..and that wasn't the way it was at all.

But anyway, Indians have been *tragically* misrepresented in films and in our history books, in our attitudes, in our reporting, so we must set about to re-educate ourselves....

Let me tell you another thing, at a time when we say, especially, that we're going to keep our Treaties and that we do keep our word and that we, above all people, *do* keep our word, I think it's important to mention that there have been nearly 400 Treaties written by the United States, in good faith with the Indians, and *every single one of them* was abrogated, it means broken, or changed, or altered...."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:25 PM

Don...with politeness...feck off and get off my back...My page now has over 25,000 great people on it, 300 joined since just last Saturday...I KNOW what works, I KNOW how to reach people!

I may not do it the way YOU may want me to, but I damn well do it, and I will continue to do it too, no matter what anyone in here throws at me....

And here, from the AIM Grassroots page in FB, who've just shared the photo above from my Raoni page...



>>>>>A.I.M. Indiana and Kentucky Chapter statement on Thanksgiving 2012

As millions of Americans gather around the dinner table to give thanks for their many blessings, let us the indigenous people remind them what they are truly celebrating. They are celebrating and giving thanks to the so called "Pilgrims" bountiful harvest, which without the indigenous peoples of this land they would have never ha
d. They are giving thanks to god for protecting them from the "savages". The same "savages" who with open hearts showed them how to grow crops, who taught them how to survive the harsh winters. The same "savages" that they murdered, raped and infected with disease.
Many of you may be saying "But that was a long time ago!" well go tell that to the indigenous peoples of Mexico, Central and South America who are being forced off their lands. The indigenous women and men in Canada, who are being raped and brutalized by the police, tell that to the people of Pine Ridge South Dakota who survived the Reign of Terror and those who did not. Tell this to our brother Leonard Peltier, who to this day sits in a federal prison convicted of a crime he did not commit.
It is with that, that we the American Indian Movement Chapter of Indiana and Kentucky call upon our prospective governors and the President of this United States of America Barack Hussein Obama II to proclaim every third Thursday of November a National Day of Mourning for all indigenous peoples of the Americas."<<<<<<

Give THANKS that the Native Americans SURVIVED!
Have a lovely day tomorrow...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:34 PM

300 joined since just last Saturday

I am 74 of them and the local branch of the BNP make up the rest. Just think about it.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:36 PM

You're wrong, Lizzie, but there's no point in anybody trying to tell you anything.

With advocates like you, I fear for Native Americans!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:57 PM

For all the Native/First Americans........Consider this as well.

We live in a country which has been wrapped up in anything but history for the most part. While a few of us may appreciate the stupidity of "Thanksgiving," for the most part no one really knows a damn thing about "Pilgrims" or "Indians" and they really don't care. They look at this holiday as a food feast, a family get together, and not much else. White America is pretty shallow and they really don't know jackshit about Christmas either. Most have no real great desire to learn any of this and are happy to go blithely along stuffing monstrous quantities of food in their face several times a year.

That's okay though isn't it? Do you really think these dumbasses can contribute anything serious to your cause? Fuck 'em. Energize the people you can and ta' hell with the rest.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:07 PM

Liz, its simply asmazing that you are able to stand being as absolutely wonderful as you are.

Roll up all & see Liz, The Penultimate Wonder Woman of All Time with 25,000 fake facebook "friends" to her name. I suspect that most porn sites have much higher viewer numbers by a factor of 10.

So Liz, other than 25,000 mouse-clicks, what concrete proof can you offer that you're doing anything at all other than maintaining a web page and talking to yourself, never mind doing anything of value for your pet Native Americans?

Concrete proof, now, not just a continuation of the river of bullshit in your earlier posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:39 PM

And one more thing........My family wa just like many others in that while they knew little about the history or present day problems, what they, and I, do associate with this day is right in the name. We all took some time to be thankful for what we had and the world we knew. We were never rich in money but we put were rich in family and the love we had for each other.

I now have my own family and my "adopted" family but my biological family are all deceased. I am still thankful in every way that I had some time, albeit short, with all of them. By the time I was 24 I had only a few cousins that I rarely saw but I had the memories of all my parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, that enriched my life. All these years later those memories overflow my heart and make me so thankful for what I had and what they gave me. I'm thankful to have been lucky enough to marry Karen who turned out to be my best friend. And I'm thankful for my 2 fine sons who have matured to manhood and continue to surprise me every day, each in their own way.

So take the causes and rewrites and what we owe and all that.....Do with it what you must or will, but understand that for a lot of us Thanksgiving is just that simple.....Giving Thanks.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:42 PM

Well said, sir!!

Take note, all. Spaw knows where his towel is!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: mg
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:33 AM

I totally disagree, and of course I know who is going to be abusive, that we should stay out of troubles in other countries. Sometimes people within a situation don't see it..like fish don't see water..you grow up in apartheid or Jim Crow or a caste system and it seems normal to you. Or if you do see the problems, there are all sorts of pressures on you to go along with it. Should people have not spoken up about apartheid? About slavery? About Dalit people cleaning sewage with their bare hands? About genital mutilation? About the dowry system? Speaking up is how things get fixed, hopefully minimizing bloodshed and violence. And speaking up from afar, particularly in this day and age, can and should be done. It means they speak up against things we do and vise versa. And so the world gets better.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: mg
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:36 AM

Also my ancestors displaced some Sioux people in NE Iowa. They came escaping the potato famine. So often tragedies lead to other tragedies in a domino effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:39 AM

Very good.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:22 AM

We should all have a cause like Lizzie's. One we feel very strongly about.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:52 AM

Lizzie, you don't know what you're talking about, and like I said, no one is going to share their serious work towards any of this with you on such a crackpot thread. You're driving away any serious conversation on these topics without knowing a thing about the people you accuse of such dastardly deeds. Go work with the disenfranchised in your own country, let us work on ours. We're grownups here and aren't ignoring important issues. Your attitude will only repel the people you are trying to help. Seriously.
You could also do yourself some good by working on your own behalf. I speak of knocking down that fake Google+ page in your name that has all of the usual purloined photos. And the fake facebook page in your name. Those companies will only take them down if you report them, and those are the lynchpins in getting the entire fake network of troll sites taken down.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:13 AM

Liz's championing of her pet natives is not a million miles from all those Plastic Paddy Irish Americans in the 80s who used to sing Danny Boy and Fields of Athenry and put money in collecting tins in pubs in New York and Boston, and send it to the IRA. Naive idiots romanticizing a conflict and a culture they could never really understand and that they had never experienced firsthand. But it made them feel important and it made their own dull lives seem more interesting and meaningful. Of course there were important causes right down their own streets they could have been throwing their time and energy into but that wouldn't have been nearly as much fun or made them feel quite so important. Romanticizing and sentimentalizing cultures that aren't your own and that you have no firsthand experience of is silly and sad at best, dangerous at worst.

But you won't tell that to the Great Goddess Liz. This is only the latest in her causes, which she champions like a religious zealot until she moves on to the next Really Important Thing That She Knows The TRUTH About. She will never acknowledge that her hectoring and abuse does her causes more harm than good, because she confuses shouting and mouse clicks with action. Her pet natives can at least rest safe knowing she'll eventually get bored and move onto the next thing that makes her Really Angry.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:19 AM

But we don't want to blow it this time...
blow it?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM

DAY OF MOURNING STATEMENT from Leonard Peltier: 2012

Greeting my relatives, friends, and supporters,

It is with great honor that I get a chance to speak with you even though it's a written message that someone has to read.

I'm saddened that we have to call this a Day of Mourning, but we must take every opportunity to remind this nation when it comes to keeping their word about treaties, about human rights, about the environment, about excess pollution - that it has failed miserably on all of those concerns. Also want to remind the major religions that speak about peace and love and brotherhood and are celebrating this thing called Thanksgiving, that we the native people of this land realistically overall have nothing to truly be thankful about regarding the arrival of the pilgrims.

And I would also like to remind the major various religions of this country that in all their teachings it says you reap what you sow. And if that is a true statement, if that is the law given by the Creator, then you have to only look around at the news of the day to see that that statement is coming to pass. This country is not keeping its solemn word under god that it gave regarding our treaties. And they don't keep their own Scriptures that say not to bear false witness or lie. They've tried to keep us from honoring our fathers by destroying our culture. They violated their word where it says "thou shalt not kill", violated every one of their commandments regarding our people in this land. And they will truly reap what they sow.

I also want to say that in the spirit of compassion and reason, and fairness, and forgiveness, that its never too late to turn things around. Actually I should say that's not quite correct, it can be too late. There's an old Cheyenne saying that a nation is never destroyed until the hearts of its women are on the ground. And if you look around you will see the decline of America. And it is entirely possible that that teaching is not far off. One thing as a people that we do have to be thankful for and thankful to the Creator only, we are still alive we are still a people. And we still know who we are, we still have a commitment to the Creator to protect this land, we still have a commitment to protect the laws of nature that were given unto us, to our ancestors. We are probably the only people on this continent that would be better off if this whole system fell apart. Because we possess the knowledge, the teaching and the culture to live in harmony with that which the Creator has given us.

I want to encourage all the young people, to always remember your health and the health of the earth are the most important things that you possess. And that self-discipline is the most important thing that you can learn. And taking responsibility for ourselves and our future is the most empowering thing that we can do. Right now you are listening to my words the words of a man in prison for 30 something years. A man who has had limited contact and yet I am able to speak to you now. And the reason I am saying this is because with all the freedom that you do possess you could do so much more. Educate yourself to our true history, educate yourself to what is really going on today, and educate yourself as to what needs to be done to make a better tomorrow for yourselves and your children's children, our future generations.

Again I want to say I am just an ordinary man caught up in extraordinary circumstances. There is nothing that I have done or said that you cannot do or say and much better because you possess more freedom than I do. We need each other. If I am ever to be free, I need you. And the truth is, none of us are truly free right now, because any people who is afraid of their government, is not free. We all need to be warriors of one. Each needs to know how to defend themselves on any level. And as I've said before we need to recapture the freedoms we've lost and protect the ones we still have.

In closing I want to encourage each and every one of you to stand up in your own way in whatever way you can for what's right, try to right what's wrong and know that in my heart and in whatever way I can help you, that I will be with you. We need each other, you need each other, and we need the help of all peoples to correct this great damage that is taking place throughout the earth. Our battle is not with a race a people or a color, our battle is with ignorance and greed that is ruling the governments of men today.

Again I want to thank you and in the spirit of crazy horse and all those beautiful people that have stood up for what's right in the past, and the ones standing up now. Stay strong and support one another,

Your Friend Always and in All Ways,

Leonard Peltier


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:33 AM

Since when were only people from a certain country allowed to talk about those within their country?

Considering I 'don't know what I'm talking about' Maggie, I've had one helluva lot of Native American people ***thanking*** me for speaking out about them, for telling their story.

I am free to do whatever I want..and the thing that has always upset me about Mudcat is that it has a great many people in it who want to control others, who tell them what they can or can't do, how they should or should not write, or what they should or should not write about.

I do NOT do this to others. I may flamingly well disagree with some of the bullshit that comes my way, but I have never told anyone how to write, or to 'go back to their own country and help people there'

As I said before, IF folks from America were up in arms, EN MASSE, about the way your government, still, to this day, treats the Indigenous People, then I wouldn't be having to piss you off at all, would I?

But you know what? The Great American saying seems to be 'Get Over It, Native America!'

Well, now the Native Americans are coming together to fight for their rights..and it's scaring the shite out of some folks..

So, YOU do something about the Indigenous People of the land you now call home, Maggie, for whilst I fully appreciate that it was the ancestors and not-so-long-ago-relatives of those who now dwell in America and Canada who did some highly unpleasant things..and that many of those folks came from England and from Europe too, what I do NOT see is The Healing Taking Place.

What I do NOT see is Modern America holding out its' arms to the very people, who, even to this day, remain so deeply damaged by what happened, what is still happening, and who have very little confidence in themselves, very little hope, in many instances...and who are still being left to just get on with it whilst The Treaties remain under a pile of White Man Corporate Shite, undisturbed, unspoken of by 'one side' whilst the other side is crying out to have those Treaties honoured.

Wake Up, America!

And all those who throw insults at me in here, shove 'em up your backsides, because I *know* what some of these kind and wonderful people are saying and that EVERY kind word someone says about them helps, even if it helps only a fraction...it still HELPS, and it means more if those words come from other parts of the world, for they know then that their message IS getting out and that it's reaching far and wide!

And I suggest, Maggie, that you read Marlon and Leonard's words, above, then write them on the walls of your house, so that YOU will be encouraged to do far more than tell other people to shut the fuck up, albeit in a far more polite way than my terminology.

Have a good day...

And I'm sure that some of the Lakota, who still worship Christianity to this day (such is the terrible damage and fear wrought by the Missionaries way back) will be thanking the Christian God for their Life of Struggle and their family....whilst others will be out there under the Skies, thanking The Great Mystery, The Creator, for all that is around them, whilst also having a feeling of Desperate Sadness for their Ancestors and the terrible pain and torment they went through at the hands of such 'Christian' People.....

mg, do you know about the Choctaw and the Irish? Of how they helped the Irish during that time, gathering what money they had together to send to them, for The Trail of Tears was still fresh in their memory so they knew what it was like to be starving. Did you know that the Irish Prime Minister went over years back to thank them personally for what they did? And that every year some of the Choctaw visit Ireland to be welcomed again by the Irish with whom they have never lost touch.....

Russell Means, meanwhile, will probably be watching over his People, Marlon at his side, and the two of them saying to one another "Time we got this Shit sorted out for good!"

Oh...and spare a thought for all the Lakota who will be having 'just another day' drinking themselves into oblivion on alcohol sold to them by the four stores in White Clay, who are, quite literally, getting genocide to happen, yet again, whilst becoming filthy rich on the hearts and souls of yet *more* Native Americans..

And now, considering I don't know the first thing about what I'm talking about, apparently, I'm going to go off and do other things about which I also, apparently, know nothing about, elsewhere.....

Oh..and Chief Raoni is, hopefully, coming to Europe shortly....I'll let you know more when I've heard back from those in France who are trying to arrange it....

Happy Thanksgiving..


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:37 AM

For anyone who thinks that 25000 facebook likes equals a political movement or a group of people spurred into real action or anything at all in fact, I found this page that has 1.2 million likes. Iguess their cause must be really REALLY important. the politics of mouseclicks


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:58 AM

Oh..and Chief Raoni is, hopefully, coming to Europe shortly....I'll let you know more when I've heard back from those in France who are trying to arrange it....

And thereby hangs the whole point of some of the criticisms, Liz. There are those who actual DO something, like arrange visits and there are those who post about what should be done on meaningless web sites. What people are saying is that no amount of ranting and raving on Facebook, Mudcat or any other web site is worth a fraction of arranging visits from real live people and giving up time to actually help in practical ways.

When was the last time you were down at your local shelter for the homeless cleaning shit from the toilets? In your own time? When did you last take a pregnant young stranger who had been thrown out by her parents into your own home, feed her and look after her until she got more permanent care? Only to find she had then stolen 2 very valuable books yet forgive her for it because of the issues she had? When did you last give up a few days pay so you could help a young couple with mental health problems decorate their house before their baby was born and then try to console them when social services decided they could not look after her?

There are plenty of things that you can be doing quietly and without the praise and adulation that you seem to seek that would make a MUCH bigger difference than screaming about the rights of a peoples who are, in the end, no different from everyone else who has been disinherited.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM

The Gnome Knows......Pay Heed the Gnome.

Obama did a good job on the web and FB and TV.....Romney did a good job too. Obama won with boots on the ground. Boots on the ground win every time.   




Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:44 AM

I'm helping to arrange the visits...dimwit...many of the pages are all linked up 'behind the scenes' sharing info, sharing posters, sharing ideas and phone calls and emails....Double Dimwit!!

Now, why don't you go back to your 'Let's see how I can make Lizzie look EVEN smaller than I already think I've got people to view her as!' room, and practice with The Turnip....

Thank you!


Oh...and with regard to this:

>>>"When was the last time you were down at your local shelter for the homeless cleaning shit from the toilets? In your own time?"<<<

EVERY SINGLE DAY I start my day by cleaning Shit off my own toilet, put there by my 98 ex-mother-in-law and her gippy tummy! This often goes on throughout the day! ONE day she even managed to not reach the loo in time, depositing her upset tummy all over the floor, the bath, the walls, the door etc...And guess who scrubbed it all down with dettol,whilst trying to wrench, who made her a cup of tea after, who disinfected everything she could lay her hands on that day?????


>>>"When did you last take a pregnant young stranger who had been thrown out by her parents into your own home, feed her and look after her until she got more permanent care? Only to find she had then stolen 2 very valuable books yet forgive her for it because of the issues she had?:<<

Oh, now, let me see...there was the time a young woman came to the house to do Vi's hair for her. She was the assistant to the young hairdresser. They were friends and the hairdresser had just taken on her friend to help her. The first thing this young woman did was take out photos of her children to show me...then,whilst the hairdresser was getting Vi ready for her perm in the other room, she told me all about her kids, how much she loved them, how dear they were to her.

Roll on about an hour..when a phone call came through for her. She took it, then rushed outside. 10 minutes later I heard, through closed windows, the sounds of an animal howling in grief.

I know that sound. I've made it myself. I know what it means.

I rushed outside,to find her doubled up on the pavement, phone in hand, incoherent through her tears. I took the phone,to find I was talking to her social worker (spit!)...It turned out she was due to see her children later that morning, they'd been taken from her because she was considered unfit, due to a bastard of a man, who was their father. Someone in the Social Worker Dept got their times muddled and she'd been told she'd MISSED being with her children, as it was an hour earlier. She had it written in her diary as the time she'd told me it was. This man was a bastard, refusing to bend the rules, refusing to let her see her children until the next appointment, the following week. Her children were 4 and 2 and she was pregnant again...

I went ballistic! I wiped the floor with them all...then I went with her to see another Social Worker in town, a real bully of a bitch of a woman, probably very similar to the kind of bitches who ran The Native American Boarding Schools....

She was so patronizing to this young woman, a young girl who was intelligent and articulate, but who struggled with emotions. The social worker was intent on getting her older child adopted and she wanted this done before the child's 5th birthday, because, 'after 5 it becomes much harder to place them' (!!!!????!!!!)

When she'd finished talking to her I spoke.

"Tell me, what has this department actually DONE to keep this mother with her children? She has told you she has given up this man, that he now lives far, far away. She goes to all the appointments you want her to, she is BEGGING to be sent on parent courses, begging to be sent on anything, anywhere, purely so she can keep her children! What RIGHT do you have to sit there and tell her she should give her child up for adoption ASAP...and that you will take her unborn child away from her when it's born??!"

She looked at me with hatred!
I returned her gaze, ten-fold!!

Then, I went with the young woman to her solicitor's appointment, for they were taking her to court soon to try to get the oldest child adopted. I told the solicitor what had happened..and more...and I also told her that I felt Jackie may well be on the Asperger Circle. She was very honest, told me she had times when she couldn't cope. Her own mother was cruel to her and she'd fought to bring herself up, really...It was the usual story of someone being left out of the loop, then having The Loop throw everything at her in later life....

Last I heard the solicitor was arranging to get Jackie and her children into a special home in London where she and they would be watched over and cared for for 2 years. During this time she would have to do *everything* she was told, jump when they said jump etc, in order to keep her children..and if, at the end of this time, they decided she could do it alone, then she would get to keep all three of her children. She cried when her solicitor told her this, saying she would do whatever it took to keep them...


>>>"When did you last give up a few days pay so you could help a young couple with mental health problems decorate their house before their baby was born and then try to console them when social services decided they could not look after her?"<<<

See above and please also note that I am a Carer, 24/7, living on a VERY low income, looking after my ex-mother-in-law, my son, my animals and trying to deal with an ex-husband who didn't want to even pay me the paltry amount for his son, who has been a total bastard to me these past years...but I would and will help anyone, at anytime, if the need is great, for I have lived in Shitsville for a very long time, so I know exactly how it feels to be there...

And now, as I said above, go back to your Shitty Campaign of trying to get others to hate me. If they do, they do. No worries to me. Those who know me like me and stand by me, those who want to hate me can go fly, for life is too short and growing shorter with each passing day....

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Another career
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:09 AM

I think it might be a kind gesture if Mudcat mods closed down this thread, in the interests of the mental health of carer Ms Cornish whose blood pressure appears to be heading through the roof and whose mental health is evidently unstable.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Another carer
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

Apologies ... Predictive text error: name should have read Another Carer ... NOT career.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:25 AM

Dennis, talking about how he waited for over 70 years before discovering that his mother *hadn't* abandoned him when he was taken to the Boarding Schools, but had written letter after letter to him, even saving up $5 which she sent to the school to ask them to send her son home....He grew up thinking she didn't care..and his bond with her was broken apart, just as those who ran these hellish places wanted to happen. His daugther found his school records, and a shoe box too, filled with all the letters his mother wrote, but which they never gave to him.....

Bastards!!

Dennis Banks - on Democracy Now (starts at around 43 minutes in)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:28 AM

And...I think rather than close this thread down, that the Mudcat Mods, of whom Maggie is one, should NAME the bogus 'guests' on this thread, for as far as I know, people are no longer permitted to post as guests unless those who run Mudcat are aware of who they are...

That should prove exciting for this day..and if the Mods choose to close it down entirely, please remember that *I* did NOT start this thread, but one of them moved a post of mine to here, giving the thread their title etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:35 AM

Open letter to Lizzie Cornish

I have no 'shitty campaign' to get others to hate you. Either stop suggesting I have or find some proof. I disagree with you on many points and will say so at any opportunity. That constitutes neither bullying or stalking. That is disagreement. You, on the other hand, seem to want to attack my genuine disagreements with smear tactics, name calling and abusive language.

I am neither a dimwit nor a double dimwit. I don't profess to be a genius but I do hold a responsible job which entails a considerable amount of intelligence; I have been happily married for nearly 40 years; I have brought up 5 children, four of which graduated university and all of which are caring human beings. I don't think any of these things are within the reach of a dimwit.

If you are genuinely assisting to arrange REAL WORLD meetings then that is all we are suggesting. You should be proud of yourself in having done so. It is far better than any amount of ranting and raving here or over on Fakebook. Why don't you just get on with it like everyone else though? I know hiding lights under bushels is silly but shouting how good you are from the rooftops is counter-productive. A line or two saying that you have and will continue to help real people would be enough. A page such as above is just bragging.

I have never resorted to poking fun at any of the countless disabilities that plague your family. You, on the other hand, have openly laughed at my wife's hearing difficulties and have suggested that I have lied about difficulties that my children have encountered.

I may have sworn at you occasionally. Purely because you seem to consider it the norm and have used abusive language to me. If that has ever offended you I apologise and, provided you no longer swear at me, I will no longer retaliate.

I have and will continue to call you Liz. Sorry, but there it is. If you say 'don't do something' to me I will do it. Call it childish if you like because it probably is but I am childish and will continue to be so till the day I die. Children get so much more out of life don't you think :-)

As to the comment about the turnip, I have no idea what you are on about. I think you have me confused with someone else.

I am sure our disagreements will continue and, to be honest, they should. If everyone agreed about everything what a boring world we would live in. In conclusion, all I ask is that you let me disagree with you without resorting to abuse, smear tactics, shouting 'bully' or screaming 'stalker'.

As ever I will rely on the facts to speak for themselves and if anyone would care to have any details to prove or underline any of my points I will happily oblige. It is up to all here to decide which version of events to believe.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:38 AM

I'm proud of you Lizzie. Stand your ground.
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:40 AM

At some point, maybe you should stand back and look at the results she gets and figure that if she uses the same tactics again and again, those ARE the results she wants. Pissing people off and getting attention. This "pontificating from afar" stuff doesn't ever change anything for the better, especially not when she's talking
AT people who've been involved far longer, and for whom the holiday is about something smaller and more real than history. And let us not forget the IDEAL of Thanksgiving, because the peace and brotherhood lasted for three days before the pilgrims started the slaughter.

These are not activists and not likely to be posting a lot on the internet, but there are individuals and families from various Indian nations throughout the US who see the day as a harvest festival or a time to gather with family and friends. But if one is on the "holier-than-thou" plane of enlightenment, one probably is OK for attempting to make THEM feel insignificant too.

The original Thanksgiving was good.
What happened after it was bad.
No matter what we do now, we're never going to change what happened.
♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦

For the record, I'm not responding to trolls, who:

1. Piss people off, and continue to provoke until the troll:
2. Gets the desired response from those who react.
3. Claims abuse, "they're picking on me", "WAAAAAAH", and then...
4. Posts something out of place and personal, having to do with "Oh poor me".

It's S&M lite.
And it's never about the pretended subject.
But there are some who always like having their chains jerked...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:56 AM

All excellent points, Jeri, but I feel enough is enough and there are times when standing up to lies and misinformation is more important that not stroking the trolls ego.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:33 AM

So Liz, where's your web page and crusade to get the Irish back the land the English stole from them over the centuries & decrying their treatment of the indigenous population of the Emerald Isle?

I can't stick around here today, have to go find a few Injuns to kill. Nothin' like killin Injuns to work up an appetite for a big feed later on.

Happy Thanxgiving, Y'all!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:39 AM

You make me sick.
=(:-( P)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John P
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:46 AM

I always figured Thanksgiving was our version of the post-harvest feast, like Christmas is our version of the mid-winter feast. I believe lots of societies have had traditions of a post-harvest feast. Did the Native Americans have a post-harvest feast?

I also think that different events mean different things to different people. Most people I know see Thanksgiving as a time of, well, giving thanks. These same people are aware of and care deeply about downtrodden people, but are intelligent enough to know that they aren't responsible for the atrocious things that were done to Native Americans, and that giving thanks for a day doesn't have anything to do -- for them -- with killing or dispossessing anyone.

Lizzie, please pay attention to those who tell you that many people who care deeply about the same issues you care about won't talk about it in your presence. If you stay true to form, you are now going to tell me that I don't care about the plight of Native Americans. You'd be wrong, but I can't prove that to you. The fact is that I don't want to be associated with you. I think you do more harm to the cause than good and I don't want anyone thinking I'm anything like you at all. And yet I still care deeply about oppressed people everywhere. Go figure.

If you really want to help the causes you espouse, learn to get along with others. Learn that not everyone approaches these issues in the same way that you do. Learn that people can disagree with you strongly while still believing in the same things you believe in. Instead of getting angry at and insulting lots of people whose politics and awareness on this subject you don't know, try finding the individuals who are actually harming others and work on them. There are certainly enough bigots that make themselves obvious, even here on Mudcat, that a more well-directed approach is fairly easy and doesn't have the disadvantage of turning those who agree with your basic message against you.

You spend so much time being angry about bigotry that you don't seem to notice that you exhibit extreme bigotry toward everyone who doesn't immediately agree with your sensibilities and tactics. When you clump a bunch of strangers together and made assumptions about their mental or emotional state, the reasons for their actions, and whether or not they are good people, you are displaying the exact definition of bigotry. Please stop, or at least please stop doing it on Mudcat where I have to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:37 AM

This thread reminds me of the school playground one person starts an argument and others join in till it does not matter what anyone says the fight is more important.

You can bang someone's head against the wall in hopes of knocking YOUR truth into them. All you really do is give them concussion.

The more someone tells me what I should think or do the more likely I am not to listen to them. My mum used to say "If you have to say the same thing more than once they wont listen any better the second time."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

Please, by all means, do POST these lies and misinformation of which you speak, Dave....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

+5 from me!!
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:33 AM

" Leonard Peltier"

here's a bit of trivia you can share with those sitting at your table breaking bread with you this Thanksgiving.

apparently Malcom McLaren's last words were said to be "Free Leonard Peltier".

now

If you don't know who Malcom McLaren is, forget all about it

regardless ... to all the Yankee (and rebel) madcatters here I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving and I hope you score well on your Black Friday shopping excursions !

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:52 AM

Prayer for the Great Family

Gratitude to Mother Earth,
sailing through night and day—
and to her soil: rich, rare and sweet
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Plants,
the sun-facing, light-changing leaf
and fine root-hairs;
standing still through wind and rain; their dance is in the flowering spiral grain
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Air,
bearing the soaring Swift and silent
Owl at dawn. Breath of our song
clear spirit breeze
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Wild Beings,
our brothers, teaching secrets,
freedoms, and ways; who share with us their milk;
self-complete, brave and aware
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Water:
clouds, lakes, rivers, glaciers;
holding or releasing;
streaming through all our bodies salty seas
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to the Sun:
blinding pulsing light through trunks of trees, through mists,
warming caves where bears and snakes sleep— he who wakes us—
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to the Great Sky
who holds billions of stars—
and goes yet beyond that—
beyond all powers, and thoughts
and yet is within us—
Grandfather Space.
The Mind is his Wife.
so be it.


after a Mohawk prayer

Gary Snyder, Turtle Island
New Directions, New York, 1974, pp. 24-25


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Janie
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:05 PM

This thread is a hoot!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:17 PM

You do not have my permission to call me Liz, but undoubtedly, you still will. That is your decision and it is done against my wishes, which is your decision also. That alone says everything about you.

With regard to your 'open letter' to me, perhaps you would like to explain why you constantly try to lower the opinion of me in every way possible. For instance, in the recent thread about Saville you chose to put a link in to a thread about rape. It had *nothing* to do with the thread in hand. ALL you wanted to do was try to get people to see me, yet again, in a bad light, by trying to infer that I said rape victims bring their crimes on themselves.

I could, had I wanted to, have brought out the fact that you, at the very start of that thread on Savile were distraught with unhappiness that such a 'wonderful' man had died. I wasn't distraught, I was glad. I had always felt the man was grimy and dirty and as a young woman, young girl, the very sight of him made my skin crawl.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Jeri, you have always thought me to be a troll. I am anything but. You have ALWAYS had me wrong. I have kept quiet because of your friendship with someone else, but quite frankly, your rudeness about me pisses me off bigtime. I have very strong opinions, to which I am entitled, as you are to yours. I did NOT start this thread, as I have stated many times. I have NOT come in here as a Guest, throwing insults around under another name.

As a mod, you should, surely, be checking who these 'guests' are, then naming them. There are TWO mods in this thread, as far as I'm aware, yet both of them, whilst hurling insults at me, let these phantom guests remain, un-named.

You think what you want of me, I really don't give a feck to be honest, for I am inured to your rudeness about me, but do not tell others I am a troll, for I am not.

If what I say pisses others off, then good. At least I am putting the other side of Thanksgiving and the Native American story forward....

The amount of links I've put in here all prove what I've said to be true.   I take a long time to find these links, to read them, watch them, connect all the dots etc...Couple this with the many Native Americans who've written to me over time and the story I see unfolding is one of continued White Man's Rage, but this time, it is borne of Guilt and a feeling of Deep Unease.

It is far easier to pretend The Genocide never happened, to remain talking ONLY of the Jewish Holocaust and not the Native American one, for that way lies ease and no guilt at all, even whilst people such as Dennis Banks, who has fought his whole life long for justice for his people, STILL are going through hell because of what was done to him so long ago, for not only did they take his parents from him, abuse him, put him through hell, alongside so many others who also went through it, but they made him almost hate his mother, his Mum who loved him so dearly...bu denying him all those letters she'd written to him so long ago....I cannot even begin to imagine his heartbreak when he opened up that shoe box and saw what he did.......

I rant and rage for the people such as Floyd Red Crow Westerman, who as a child was made to kneel on marbles and broom handles, by those who did what they did in the name of their God!

What happened here is SO evil that it beggars belief...and far from being an Ostrich, preferring to hide my head away from all the carnage, the genocide and the utter cruelty, done by your people and MY People, I choose to stand and face it HEAD ON! I choose to stare The Truth right slap bang in the bloody face and take it on the chin, for I stand right beside Marlon Brando who had the guts to speak the truth and for that he was hated for many years by those who were the perpetrators of this shocking myth, which they invented for their own sick agendas.

You have my full permission to call me a pain in the arse, but you can stick your Troll Accusations wherever you so chooose, for I am heartily sick of them.

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM

Lovely prayer, bobad...

Bill, Malcom's ex-partner, Vivienne Westwood took up Malcolm's words and now does all she can to help get Leonard freed. She has made many fashion items with 'Free Leonard Peltier' on them, introducing his story to her famous friends. She and Leonard write to each other as well, and you will find her letters on her blog, here:

Keep presssing 'older blogs' - righthand side of page at the bottom
Get A Life - Vivienne Westwood's blog

Vogue article on Malcolm's words for Leonard


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

All Hail The Incomperable Liz, Wasichu Wonder Woman Of The West! Bow down, ye worms, and worship Her Magnificense. Nec pluribus impar!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:58 PM

Oh, feck off..there's a dear...





Someone has very kindly just put this on my FB page, so I thought I'd share it here:


IROQUOIS THANKSGIVING ADDRESS
Ohenton Kariwahtekwen

The People

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as people.

Now our minds are one.

The Earth Mother

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Waters

We give thanks to all the waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms-waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of Water.

Now our minds are one.

The Fish

We turn our minds to the all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Plants

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

The Food Plants

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting of thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Medicine Herbs

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

The Animals

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We are honored by them when they give up their lives so we may use their bodies as food for our people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one

The Trees

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many people of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

The Birds

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds-from the smallest to the largest-we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Four Winds

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help us to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

The Thunderers

Now we turn to the west where our grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We are thankful that they keep those evil things made by Okwiseres underground. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

The Sun

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

Grandmother Moon

We put our minds together to give thanks to our oldest Grandmother, the Moon, who lights the nighttime sky. She is the leader of woman all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

The Stars

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

The Enlightened Teachers

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring teachers.

Now our minds are one.

The Creator

Now we turn our thoughts to the creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for all the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

Closing Words

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.

Attitude of Gratitude Moment: Having Elders who share their wisdom and guidance with me freely that I may see with illuminated eyes. Thank you to Mama Donna for sharing with me.

Artist Maxine Noel


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

Worn out on autism huh? Moved to Native AMericans now.......Maybe you could combine the two.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM

You really do take the biscuit, Liz. From your post further up this thread -

Please, by all means, do POST these lies and misinformation of which you speak, Dave....

Then from further still up the thread.

I'm helping to arrange the visits...dimwit...many of the pages are all linked up 'behind the scenes' sharing info, sharing posters, sharing ideas and phone calls and emails....Double Dimwit!!

Misinformation. I think I can conclusively say I am not a dimwit of the single or double variety.

Now, why don't you go back to your 'Let's see how I can make Lizzie look EVEN smaller than I already think I've got people to view her as!' room, and practice with The Turnip....

Absolute outright lie. I have no such campaign and I have no idea what I should be doing with a turnip. Could you please explain.

Continuing your smear tactics -

I could, had I wanted to, have brought out the fact that you, at the very start of that thread on Savile were distraught with unhappiness that such a 'wonderful' man had died.

I really, really wish you would, Liz. If you can find anything like what you report in my post to that thread please post it here. What I actually said, and it is not difficult to look up, was

"Listening to Tony Blackbutrn on Pick of the Pops earlier today and realising what a huge difference DJs made to my generation. JS was one of the best and most influential."

How on earth could you consider I thought thought he was a wonderful man and was distraught with unhappiness when I just considered him to be one of the best and most influential DJs of my generation? I consider Adolph Hitler was one of the most influential leaders of the 20th century. Would you say I thought he was a wonderful man?

Lies and misinformation. Smear tactics, Bullying at it's worse simply because I disagree with you.

Last easily addressable post. You say

in the recent thread about Saville you chose to put a link in to a thread about rape. It had *nothing* to do with the thread in hand. ALL you wanted to do was try to get people to see me, yet again, in a bad light, by trying to infer that I said rape victims bring their crimes on themselves.

I brought up the link to show that you once posted that girls who wear skimpy clothes and throw themselves at men have to take some blame when those men react in a sexual manner. You make that blatantly clear in the thread concerned. In the 60s and 70s girls wore skimpy clothes and threw themselves at people like Saville. I disagreed with you at the time. Still do. Your hypocrisy in then saying that these girls were the innocent victims is quite breathtaking. There was no other reason behind my post. Other than in your own imagination. Once again I disagree with you so I must be put down with lies, misinformation and scorn. And BTW - Why bring up the thread about Saville if you are so against bringing things from other threads?

Finally, just on this bit I am sure, you say -

I have nothing further to say to you.

I am pretty sure this is yet another lie as you have often said it before and continued your relentless tirade unashamedly in the same post. I would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong by simply allowing me my opinion. Even when it does not conform with yours.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:30 PM

In The True Believer, Eric Hoffer, the longshoreman philosopher, points out that the person who most passionately adopts a cause does so to fill an emptiness within their own life. Any criticism, questioning, or reluctance to join in their particular passionate cause, they take as a personal affront.

Hoffer also points out that The True Believer, the Fanatic, is actually easily converted from one cause to another. Given the right circumstances or motivation, the fanatical Fascist will become a fanatical Communist. Then a fanatical Christian. But—no matter what cause or belief system they embrace and proselytize loudly to others, they will always be a Fanatic.

It is this emptiness within their own psyche, demanding to be filled, that makes them a fanatical adherent to a Cause.

Any Cause.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:54 PM

... and then there is the person who continuously and continuously argues/attacks the person is passionate about a given cause.

biLL ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:10 PM

... and then there is the person who continuously and continuously argues/attacks the person is passionate about a given cause.

Apologies if have got this wrong Bill but that sounds like you are saying it is wrong to argue with or attack someone who is passionate about a given cause?

I am sure Hitler was passionate about what was happening to Germany in the 1930s. Maybe someone should have attacked him? Joseph Stalin was a very charismatic orator. Do we accept all that he did because he was good with words?

I will argue with anyone with whom I disagree. I do not expect my arguments to be heeded by that person but they are just as valid. I will point out that there is often an alternative to berating and bullying people to support causes. That often people are just too busy with their own issues to take on those of others. That those who disagree with either the cause or they way support is being handled are entitled to their opinions too.

By giving those alternate views, maybe, just maybe, some Mudcat readers will realise that there are two sides to most arguments? We can but hope :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

I'll PM you, Spaw...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:28 PM

Sorry Dave ... Yes, there are 2 sides to an argument and I'm all for a good debate in regards to issues ... my reference was to Don Firth's comment above my thread ... I find continual ridiculing, or attacking someone because they are passionate about a cause somewhat disturbing.

I hope I clarified your concern

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:47 PM

>>>"..In The True Believer, Eric Hoffer, the longshoreman philosopher, points out that the person who most passionately adopts a cause does so to fill an emptiness within their own life...."

Oh well, you'd best not tell that to the English Traddies, else you'll truly be in hot water, for once The Moaning Minnies get hold of you they'll eat you alive...or try to.

>>>"Any criticism, questioning, or reluctance to join in their particular passionate cause, they take as a personal affront."<<<

I didn't ask ANYONE to join 'the cause' (what cause is that exactly?) I merely said there was another side to all this Thanksgiving crap that goes on that most people choose to totally ignore...

Again, I did NOT start this thread. ONE post of mine was removed from the other thread, I presume because I was upsetting The Turkey Brigade, and put in here under this title.

This may astound you, Don, but I do have a RIGHT to my opinion, just as you do to yours. I don't follow you around Mudcat nit-picking or being rude to you, but you continuously do this to me.

Maybe you need to read another book to find out why......

Thanks....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:54 PM

biLL, I'm not ridiculing, I'm stating a FACT.

I have nothing against passionate adherence to good causes. In fact I'm often given to it myself. BUT--it is not difficult to tell when someone is operating NOT out of any genuine concern (generally the rather spittle-spraying manner in which they express themselves and the angry way in which they respond to anyone who doesn't immediately leap on board), but for the very reasons that Eric Hoffer delineated.

The Fanatic has a tendency, not to try to persuade, but to beat people about the head and shoulders and attempt to bury them in some kind of collective guilt.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:03 PM

And a touch of paranoia is also characteristic.

Lizzie, I do NOT follow you around Mudcat nit-picking and "being rude" to you.

Sorry to break it to you, but you are not that important to me.

Don Firth

P. S. Guests arriving. I'll be gone for the rest of the day, enjoying Thanksgiving with friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:15 PM

Excellent...don't forget to mention the Genocide on which this day is built though, eh?


>>>BUT--it is not difficult to tell when someone is operating NOT out of any genuine concern (generally the rather spittle-spraying manner in which they express themselves and the angry way in which they respond to anyone who doesn't immediately leap on board), but for the very reasons that Eric Hoffer delineated.<<<

Not out of any genuine concern?

Oh right...silly me.
And there was I thinking I was deeply concerned, but I see it all so clearly now, I'm just a mere Hofferite after all...


Sigh.............

Has Obama pardoned his turkeys yet?
Yup......

Has he pardoned Leonard Peltier yet?
Nope....

But then, Leonard's ONLY been in prison for 37 fecking YEARS, framed by the FBI, so WHY would he waste time on a Native American when he can pardon a turkey or two?

YEEEEEEEEEESH!

God Bless America, Land of the Free, unless you just happen to be Native American, in which case..............


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

Don bullies everyone that disagrees with him.
=(:-( I)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

I hope you are not planning to celebrate Christmas, Liz. The decimation of the Muslim people of the Holy Land during the Crusades makes it very culturally insensitive. Especially Christmas which celebrates the very event that led to the Holy Land being stolen by Westerners from the indigenous people of the Middle East.

I hope you didn't participate in any Jubilee celebrations last summer. Very culturally insensitive to celebrate the Monarchy when so many countries around the world are still third world nations as an overhang of the British Empire, with people living in terrible poverty and with disease and childhood death because they have never recovered from Britain's cultural rape and pillage.


See? This is an easy game.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:42 PM

the person who most passionately adopts a cause does so to fill an emptiness within their own life.

And then there's simply the deeply psychotic unbalanced lunatic.

Think horses, not zebras.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:45 PM

Thanks Bill - Yes that does clear up my reservations (no pun intended!) and thanks to Don for the comeback. Out of all the spittle, smoke and mirrors there are some interesting and opposing points coming out. Put across in a reasoned and reasonable manner. Just like grown up people do! A very refreshing turn for the better :-)

I find the psyche of the fanatic very interesting. I said earlier that wars and conflicts were caused by the rich and greedy. I stick to that but was reminded that, if the rich are the Generals, it is fanatics that do their dirty work. To be passionate about a subject is great. I am passionate about many things. History, Beer, Trains, Morris Dancing and the inappropriate distribution of wealth to name but a few.

What I cannot stand or accept though, is the in your face, you have to do this or you are soulless, we are all doomed if you don't do as I do attitude that the fanatic has. Fanatics are not interested in anyone else's views. Anyone with a different view is subject to ridicule and abuse. The extremists go so far as to kill those who disagree.

I am sure that there are other fanatics on here but Liz is in a league, nay, a world, of her own. I don't believe she would really kill anyone who disagreed but it looks like she has thought about it in my case ;-) Don, Jeri, SRS - Sorry but I have had to suffer this for years. Welcome to the ever growing club of people who will be against the wall come the Cornish revolution!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM

I'll PM you, Spaw...

Ah Jeez - 'Spaw is now one of Wasichu Wonder Woman's elect!!

The honor of being singled out by a psychotic for special treatment must be overwhelming!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM

By the way, Liz-

1. Still waiting for those Native American names & contact information

2. Still waiting for concrete proof that you're doing anything at all other than maintaining a web page and talking to yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM

"US Thanksgiving--Debate"

When any thread descends to this, it's lots of things, but debate ain't one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:21 PM

Still waiting for concrete proof that you're doing anything at all other than maintaining a web page and talking to yourself.

I'd make a cuppa tea, And it isn't a web page and requires little action. Maitaining a webpage would be far too difficult. It would require effort for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:43 PM

Yup, maintaining one of FBs group pages DOES take a lot of effort, which is why many pages have many people helping out with the research, the making of photos, writing posts, moderating etc...

I do it all myself...

During the Earth Summit in Rio, back in June, there were over 100,000 folks reading the page on a daily basis...Usually it balances out between 4 to 10 thousand, depending on what's going on with Belo Monte...

But I'd not expect most of the folks on here to understand any of that, nor believe it...but of course, they visit many pages themselves without any thought as to who, or how many, are maintaining and creating those pages...

And yes, I agree with Bruce, this is no 'debate' at all, just the Old-Fashioned Mudcat Days of 'See The Prey and Pounce'

But then, again, I did NOT start this thread, or this 'debate'...see previous explanation above.

Close the thread if you so wish...I couldn't give a fuck any longer after many of the things that have been said in here..

I'm off to do far more important things and the great thing about my FB page is that when The Bastards come-a-callin' I zap 'em, instantly....

Racist Bastard? Zap!
Bullying Bastard? Zap!
Condescending Bastard? Zap!
Patronizing Bastard? Zap!
Anti-Leonard Peltier Bastard? ZAPPPP!
Tiresome "Why do you post so much, it upsets me and I may leave this page!" Bastard - ZAP!
Bossy "I really don't like it when you say bad things about the Christian Church" Bastard? - ZAP!!
Intolerant "You should ONLY post about Belo Monte!" Bastard? - ZAPP!!

And so, I'm left with one helluva lot of GREAT people who do ALL they can to spread the word and bring others in, who phone up and write to Embassies, Newspapers, TV and Radio Stations, who phone the White House on behalf of Leonard Peltier..it's bloody WONDERFUL...and most of the feckers in this thread couldn't do ANY of it at all, which is why they get their knickers in such a twist, for all they can do is throw insults, as a group, on here, feeling buoyed up by each other and considering it Hunting Season Time...and no, Jeri, that's not me going "WHAAAA!", it's just me stating 'fact'...

I'll leave you with Andrew Windyboy

Have a good evening...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Puzzled of Barnsley.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:01 PM

So if you are that busy - how come you spend so much time on here?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:02 PM

Just for the record, "Thanksgiving" is a holiday from the American Civil War. So it's about Fratricide, not Genocide. Keep your atrocities straight. You've been warned.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

Yup, maintaining one of FBs group pages DOES take a lot of effort, I do it all myself...

God DAMN!!   How can anyone on the face of the earth begin to compare to Wasichu Wonder Woman [aka WWW] Liz!

She does all the useless and inconsequential shit ALL BY HERSELF!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM

Uh, Liz - reality check:

Isn't it a post of yours that is the beginning of this thread? Or are you claiming that some extraterrestrial channeling you posted it in the first place?

Can't you even take responsibility for what you post?

Apparently not.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:11 AM

And so, I'm left with one helluva lot of GREAT people

So, basically, after all that zapping, what you are left with is only people who agree with you? All of whom are GREAT? The rest of us are, I suppose, the Bastards who get zapped?

What a really, really sad and insecure little life when one cannot take criticism without going off the rails. Ah well. As I said earlier, the world would be a worse place if we all agreed all the time.

Good luck with your yes-men, Liz.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:58 AM

Scores on the doors:

Self-aggrandizement 1
Self-awareness 0


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:05 AM

Enjoy Thanksgiving for what it is. An excuse For USA citizens to get together and remember family.   Enjoy.

In the meantime, all countries have weird people who will tell millions to stop enjoying themselves because of the plight of their favourite bandwagon.

These people have labels. Here in The UK doctors use a code on their notes to describe them.

GROLIES

Guardian reader of limited intelligence in ethnic skirt.

Have a bit of breast for me!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:52 AM

Think of the poor Scots.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:21 AM

Oh goody. Lizzies back, and in full effect as well! Hurrah. How I missed her rantings against the world. Have spent an enjoyable hour reading this thread. She's definitely on good form with her usual scattergun approach to the world view.
Keep on Lizzie....We've missed you!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:23 AM

The post at the start of this thread was in the OTHER Thanksgiving thread. A mod took it out and started this thread. Take it up with whoever the mod was who did it, Greg.

I've explained this many times over..

I've also explained the power of Facebook too. But hey, as you don't believe me, then take a look at the 'Nobel Peace Prize for Malala' thread and you will learn about the petition now being signed by many hundreds of thousands of people for Malala.

Sometimes these petitions carry great weight. The one started up to protect the Guarani-Kaiowa Tribe from eviction of their land finally got Brazil's genocidal president, Dilma Rousseff, to back off. Sadly, she's ignored MILLIONS of signatures on other petitions about Belo Monte.....1.3 MILLION of these were collected in under a week in Brazil by the Drop Of Water campaign which took place on...wait for it...Facebook...She ignored all these signatures too, because she is obssessed with being The One Who Built Belo Monte.

Yes, pages, GOOD pages, DO take a great deal of work. You have to attend to them every single day, otherwise your viewing figures will begin to drop, as will the numbers of new posters coming to the page..

Here is the video made by some of the posters from around the world, from my page, when one of them, Nadine, from Lebanon, stepped forward to ask for help in making this..

It has been seen by the Bastards of Norte Energia who run TV Belo Monte, a propaganda station basically, which tries to assure the world that Belo Monte is a bloody wonderful idea. They are truly pissed off about her film..which is great! It's also 'out there' in French and Portuguese now...

Citizens of the World Against Belo Monte

So, you see, others are inspired and so the story grows. From this page came Nadine's video which is being shared around the world....

This page is also inspired from the Support Chief Raoni page. ALL the words on here are mine, but some kind soul took them, along with links I'd put on, and made it into a page that is there all the time, for FB pages move on every day. So now people can share this too...

Blue Feather Spirit Blog - The Belo Monte Dam

Cool, isn't it! I LOVE it! I LOVE the power of Facebook to connect people around the world.

It is, of course, why Russell Means used the internet every day, with his FB page, his main site and his many, many videos, for Russell knew the power that lies inside it..

It is another reason why Russell and I would have got on well, had we ever met, Greg..which I know pisses you off, but heyho, 'tis the way it is. I'm no new ager, nor wannabee indian. I'm merely a woman pissed off with what the Native Americans are still having to endure to this day and I'v decided to do my bit in standing beside them, nothing more.

Obviously, you seem to have trouble taking in what I say, so may I politely suggest you read through this slowly in order that I don't have to repeat it all for you, yet again.

thank you and have a good day (which is the polite version of 'up yours', of course) ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:17 AM

I thought this got started in the Abe Lincoln thread?
=(:-( 0)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Mayet
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:25 AM

The background to Malcolm McLaren's famous last words as posted by Number 6 on 22 Nov 12 @ 11:33 AM

- a little more prosaic when perceived in context

McLaren was being treated in Switzerland for a rare cancer and was drifting in and out of consciousness with his son Joseph Corré, his 'longtime girlfriend' Young Kim and his stepson fetish and glamour photographer Ben Westwood at his side.
Ben (Vienne Westwood's son) was wearing one of his mother's t shirts bearing the slogan 'Free Leonard Peltier' and it was while looking at this McLaren was reported by Corré as saying 'Yeah, right, Free Leonard Peltier' although he doesn't appear to have been any kind of active supporter of the cause in life.
Ben Westwood, in an interview for a student magazine, said that his stepfather's work
"was influenced by Native American Indians, pirates, highwaymen and guys like that. The world will miss him."
and in response to his dying remark said "He smiled at me, clenched his fist and said 'Free Leonard Peltier',"
"He had a sense of humour to the end."

Not really the words of anyone who understands the issues involved?

I'd echo John P's plea to Ms Cornish @ 09:46 AM yesterday

Can you really be so insensitive or self centered that you are unable to see that you simply damage or at least embarrass the causes (and sometimes the performers) you promote so assiduously, some might say unremittingly?
I'm not an American and, furthermore, I don't profess to know whether Peltier is innocent or not or what his role, if any, was in the persecution and subsequent execution of Anna Mae Aquash, an activist who doesn't seem worthy of a mention.
My only personal, first hand experience of Native Americans is stopping and chatting at a Shoshoni reservation small supermarket while travelling across the mid west although I was deeply moved by many of the exhibits in The National Museum of the American Indian but delighted to discover so much tradition remains.

I AM disturbed however, by the way in which MANY offenders (including Peltier) are reported to be treated in some American prisons and would certainly support a plea for parole, as advocated by Amnesty International, in spite of your strident, hectoring, relentless and frankly deterring postings.

What I will add finally is that I feel to encapsulate all the tragic history of the native American people and fasten it onto one man, innocent or guilty, is nothing short of some kind of psycholgically perturbing cultish 'hero worship' Does Peltier truly represent ALL Native Americans does Chief Raoni represent all the various groups that oppose the Brazilian dam or does anyone else find these portrayals of the 'noble savage' image with all its colonial origins as disturbing as I do?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:35 AM

Analize the word History. His story. Written by the winners.

"The British mistreated the Americans", let's see now, the colonists asked King George 3 to send troops to protect them against the savages that they had robbed of their land and whatever else they wanted. Then, George expected them to help pay for their own defense in the form of taxes! Imagine that, paying your fair share, sound familiar?

The French gave the Indians their religion, trade goods and even taught them to scalp enemies.

The English gave the Indians blankets infected with small pox.

Whose history do you choose to believe?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

British bastards!
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:04 AM

Well Lizzie, you've put the cat among the penguins right enough. For what it's worth I'm with you, re the sidelini8ng of the native Americans. In their case being there first certainly didn't count for much.
As for mods being against you, there is at least one posting on here who appears to be in agreement with your stance. (The mods never did know what to do about your posts ;))
The one thing I do notice about many of the posts in this thread, is the refusal to actually discuss the subject. There's a lot of mud slinging, and a plethora of irrelevant distraction posts. I mean, WTF does the Irish situation have to do with the price of fish. Certainly it has effall to do with Thanksgiving.
Nils illegitimi carborundum.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:20 AM

I'm with Lizzie.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John P
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

Everyone seems to be treating Native Americans as if they were one people, with one philosophy, one set of cultural norms, and one way of responding to their environment. Is that really true? How much did a Cherokee farmer have in common with a Dakota nomad, a Pueblo urbanite, or a Snoqualmie hunter/gatherer?

Isn't it also likely that, like people everywhere, Native Americans, even within the same tribes, are different than one another? Some may have a mystical or philosophical mindset, some may be very creative, some may be assholes to everyone around them, some may find it difficult to connect with other people, some may always make a joke to deflect serious situations, some may love animals, etc etc etc. Most discussions I see, including this one, seem to start with the concept "Native Americans are this" or "Native Americans are that". I don't know a lot about it, but it doesn't seem very likely to me that this is the case. I suspect that if I were a Native American I would be offended by those type of assumptions.

I'm also wondering why people who grew up in and live in white society but had a Native American ancestor three or four generations back think they are in some way Native American. Isn't the way you spend your life, the culture that you actually live in, a more important determining factor?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:41 AM

The post at the start of this thread was in the OTHER Thanksgiving thread.

But YOU are the author of it, right Liz? Who gives a rats who "moved" it or to where? Its still yours.

"The Power Of Facebook" - sounds like a new Star Wars movie, Liz- It is to laugh. Farcebook is a mythical "community"[sic] that exists(?) only in cyberspace. Turn off your electronic toys & get out in the real world - unless that's too difficult for you.

But then, NOTHING is too difficult for Wasichu Wonder Woman, right?

And by the way, still waiting for answers to questions posed 22 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Thank you, John... xxx


Mayet, you haven't a clue WHAT Malcolm McLaren knew about Leonard Peltier before he died, so please, do NOT try to insinuate he knew nothing at all. Check with Vivienne Westwood. You'll find her on Facebook and in her blog and via Google, that way your Pedantic Pants may get some relaxation.

As to Annie Mae, Leonard Peltier had nothing to do with her death. Ask John Trudell and look at the facts. You can also read Leonard's letter about Kamook and Annie online. There is a small, but strong, group of Leonard Haters on the internet, led by retired FBI boysies. I've come into contact with them all, including Annie's daughter, Denise. We have exchanged a great many messages. She decided to tell people on one of her many pages where she slags Leonard off at every opportunity, that I had called her a Fed. This is the point she lost ALL respect from me, for I had done no such thing, as well she knew. She refused to apologise. She refused to remove her post...and so I came to realize that she actually rather enjoys the attention she is getting, for the more sympathy she gets, the happier she seems to be.

She knows full well that Leonard cannot reply to her comments. She also knows full well that her 'Gun In The Mouth' accusation is balderdash for the very video she uses to try to sway people to her side of this story contains only ONE such accusation, made on behalf of another person, who apparently told the woman this story. Several other women are on that film saying that someone who was drunk held a gun to Annie's head and accused her of being a fed.

Annie is reported to have said to her friends that she told this person to go ahead and shoot her if that was truly what he thought of her. He did not shoot her. The gun was lowered and Annie went home.

Annie Mae had been set up by the FBI who created total confusion and mistrust within AIM, arresting many people wherever Annie turned up, yet always leaving her entirely alone. Thus the rumours grew and grew, helped along by an FBI Informer, who it is said Annie knew the name of.

Please also remember that Annie had an affair behind the back of her best friend, with her best friend's husband, Dennis Banks. Both of them were in the wrong. Kamook was desperately upset and admitted to this under oath, as she was still in love with Dennis at the time.

Kamook went on to tape conversations for the FBI of her talks with Dennis and she accepted over $40,000 from them as 'living expenses' during her trial. She slammed Dennis and Leonard perfectly, almost in a script that could have been written by the FBI themselves.

Shortly after the trial she married Robert Ecoffey, a former GOON, one of the hated men of Dick Wilson who caused terror and great fear on Pine Ridge.

This broke Leonard apart for he had looked upon Kamook as a sister and to this day he does not understand what happened to her and why she went against her own People.

Denise says she wants the truth to come out, but she refuses to even mention the MASSIVE role the FBI played in all of this. They regarded AIM as one of, if not, THE most dangerous Movement on their list and they were determined to take them down. Using Annie Mae as their main target was a good move for them, for they surely caused mayhem when this happened...

Does Denise ever mention David Price, the agent who told Annie he'd see her dead 'within the year' ? Nope....

Does she ever mention COINTELPRO and what the FBI and GOONS did on Pine Ridge? Nope....

ALL she wants is to finish blowing apart AIM and with Paul Demain (spit!) right beside her she will continue on. It seems he has taken control of her, in my view. Demain is hated by many and he can be damned unpleasant, trust me, he's directed his anger at me...He's also racist too. He's incensed I speak out, as is she...as are the rest of them. They put me in their blogs, ridicule me on their pages...just like the Moaning Minnies in here do...but they will never stop me talking.

I do NOT believe John Graham killed Annie Mae and his trial too was a farce...I do NOT believe Arlo Looking Cloud's statement and indeed Arlo has withdrawn what he said, saying he was drunk at the time..I believe the FBI used Arlo...and that John Graham is another Leonard Peltier, used to cover up what *really* happened.

Denise tells me over and over that there were 25 witnesses. There weren't. There were 25 people who all gave different versions of what was alleged to have happened. These stories varied greatly in their telling. This was put down to the murder having happened so long ago....   ???????? Really???? Surely, if you saw someone being taken out to be shot you'd remember it in every gory, scary detail? But nope, the judge said it was OK that there were so many discrepancies, so that's that. Of course, there was NO evidence to prove that John shot Annie, nor will there ever be, yet there he sits, locked away for life, with NO parole whatsoever....

Now, WHY would the FBI want to make sure that again a prisoner they've had put away doesn't ever get out?

Also, Denise will use the words of Robideau when it suits her, yet when I have sent words from Bob where he stated outright that Leonard had nothing to do with Annie's death she tells me that Bob changed his mind all the time, said one thing, then said another....yet she USES his words to get at Leonard KNOWING he was totally unreliable in what he said at times.

Annie LOATHED the FBI with every fibre of her body, yet now, her daughter sits in their corner, aligning herself with the Trimbachs and Woods of this world whilst telling me, pathetically, that she will not say anything about the FBI because she has no proof...

I've told her that if she DID speak out about them, then it would start to blow this whole thing apart in the RIGHT way and that finally, if SHE demanded the FBI to be investigated over THEIR part in her Mother's death, then *finally* she may get to the REAL Truth of what happened and who it was who laid that path down which led to Annie's death, for they were just as guilty as whoever shot her. She also refuses to speak out about the shocking way the FBI treated her mother's body and the many things they did after Annie's death.

I cannot force her to do anything..and we no longer talk....but I refuse to keep quiet whilst she continues to try to drag Leonard Peltier through the dirt.

For way too long people have kept silent about what Denise is doing, because they're all worried about hurting her any further. Well, she's a tough cookie, believe me...and after she chose to lie about me, she saw the other side of me and I lost ALL worry about upsetting her, because trust me on this one, Denise doesn't care WHO she upsets, and she doesn't care about Leonard Peltier's reputation, nor the fact he's been in prison for over 37 YEARS now after being framed by the very people she has chosen to let off the hook in every way.

Oh..and her sister is a Policewoman in Canada, so I guess it's a bit tricksy for Denise to slam the fooking FBI...

Anyway...I hope my War & Peace explanation has helped a little....
Do PM me if you want to know more, rather than fill this thread with bullshit about Leonard or Malcolm or anyone else.....

Ta muchly....


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John P
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

John MacKenzie, I think everyone agrees with Lizzie's basic idea, that Native Americas have been and are treated like shit. Unfortunately, that's not what this thread is about. It's about Lizzie telling everyone in a rude fashion that we're not aware of it and that we don't care about it. It's about Lizzie assuming that all of us are so ignorant that we think Thanksgiving was started by the Pilgrims and is nothing except a symbol of genocide. It started because Lizzie was inappropriately doing these things in a thread about Thanksgiving and a moderator moved her posts. So all the posts that are about Lizzie instead of about the abuse of Native Americans are actually more pertinent than Lizzie's posts, which are based on incorrect assumptions about and rude communications with the people she's talking to.

There isn't much point in having a discussion if we don't have a starting point we can all live with, and most of us find Lizzie's starting point untenable. If you want to have a discussion about the bad treatment of Native Americans, I'm afraid it will have to start with something other than hurling unwarranted insults at the participants and making incorrect assumptions about their ethical stances and level of knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:00 AM

>>>"I'm also wondering why people who grew up in and live in white society but had a Native American ancestor three or four generations back think they are in some way Native American. Isn't the way you spend your life, the culture that you actually live in, a more important determining factor?"<<<

Perhaps some folks are desperate to get back to a People who are known for their Spirituality? I know someone who has recently gone back to his Native American roots, his son too..and they have both had a sense of Coming Home. They are only one or two generations removed.

I think it's *great* that people are now finding out and, more importantly, feeling PROUD of their Native American/Indian roots.

We Are All Related
:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM

That's right Liz, no one knows the "truth" but you, and everyone lies but you - even tho you've never been in the U.S. or actually met any of the people concerned, or know anything but what you're read or heard third-hand. Quite amazing.

Its all about YOU, isn't it, Liz - and Leonard & all the rest got lost somewhere along the way.

and we no longer talk....

I suspect, Liz, that she ain't the only one of your "friends" that you've completely alienated & won't have anything more to do with you..

Denise doesn't care WHO she upsets,

Now THAT's damned hysterical! SHE doesn't care who she upsets? None so blind, Liz, none so blind.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:17 PM

A little balance and a lot of truth. The entire article is wrth reading.

Outside Magazine - July 1995 excerpts
The Martyrdom of Leonard Peltier
By Scott Anderson (award winning investigative journalist)


Outside Magazine Article

".. .the Peltier story has so entered the realm of myth that apparently its architects no longer feel the need to adhere to the most rudimentary of facts."

" I'm struck yet again by a strange irony: : All the most visible and tireless proponents of the ongoing Peltier crusade--... are not Indians, but whites."

Tim Giago, another Oglala Sioux from Pine Ridge and the publisher of Indian Country Today, the largest-circulation Indian newspaper in the country, based in Rapid City. "Yeah, the AIM city Indians brought a lot to the reservation," Giago says, his voice heavy with sarcasm. "Like dope, like disrespect for law and order--and a lot of the young guys on Pine Ridge jumped on the bandwagon."

In Giago's view, AIM's initial success was largely the result of having caught the attention of the "eastern liberal press."

"They came off as very traditional," Giago says, "but they knew very little about traditions. I remember that, for a long time there, Russell Means was going around with this beaded headband that he thought was the sign of a Sioux warrior; finally, one of the elders took him aside and told him only women wore headbands like that."


"It's an irony that Robert Grey Eagle, the former Pine Ridge AIM member, noticed a long time ago.

"I think from the very beginning, we--both AIM and Indians in general--were hurt by a lot of white outsiders who came in, attached themselves to our cause, and ended up using the Indian movement for their own purposes. Maybe they didn't do it deliberately, but that was the result, and it is still going on. They are not letting these old wounds heal, and I resent that."

Even worse, says Grey Eagle, is the subliminal message being communicated to American Indians: "I reject this idea that we, as Indians, are helpless victims and that the only heroes our children have to look up to are men in prison. I don't believe that. I find that an extremely condescending message."

Did a vengeful Federal Bureau of Investigation, desperate to put someone behind bars for the murder of two of its agents, railroad an innocent man?

"It's ludicrous," says Doug Grell, an FBI special agent stationed in the Rapid City office for the past 19 years. "We framed Leonard Peltier? Well, if the government is trying to frame Leonard Peltier, we got awful lucky, didn't we? We just happened to pick a guy who was there and who admits to shooting at the agents."

photos of Ron Williams and Jack Coler Death Scene



Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Least someone believe the crazy indian stuff that is spewing from the testey pasty ... do a quick scan of Chief Gregory Pyle - Choctaw Nation and read the goals common to most native americans leaders. Or Indian Country News. Or Cherokee.org


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:30 PM

Well, at long last I feel I can add to the debate without fear of being shrieked at! I have no objections at all to people disagreeing with me provided it is in a reasonable and reasoned way. I have, quite often, had my mind changed by reason and logic in a way that no amount of blustering, bullying and shouting will ever do. Anyway, here's hoping.

I think the whole premise of the opening argument is that you should not celebrate thanksgiving because it is offensive to American Indian. Yes? If so them why celebrate anything? Most celebrations are in respect of some historic event. If not they are in respect of a recent victory or momentous event. So far so good? That being the case lets look at just a few.

Christmas. Celebrates the birth of Christ. The birth of Christ seems to be the start of Christian persecution of all other religions. Let's stop celebrating that.

Bonfire night. Celebrates the execution of a scape-goat caught with the match. An effigy of a Catholic is thrown on the fire. How could we ever have celebrated that?

The Queens Birthday, Jubilee, anniversary or whatever. Who in their right minds would celebrate a Monarch representing the oppression of millions across the globe. Beyond me, but we do it.

The Olympics. We won more gold than ever. What happens to those poor North Korean and Chinese athletes who didn't do what the state expected? Lets ban the Olympics.

Your football team won. The other one lost.

In a nutshell - If you want to be negative about celebrations, do it for all of them.

Alternatively let's look at the positive. It's an idea you know. Thanksgiving is a real celebration and all celebrations should be about giving thanks for whatever you are feeling good about. If you want a day of mourning then feel free. But why hi-jack someone else's holiday?

Just my two-pen'urth.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:19 PM

I'm quite fascinated at the Great White Queen purporting to save the Noble Savages who cannot do it for themselves. That is a type of racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:55 PM

Don Firth said

The Fanatic has a tendency, not to try to persuade, but to beat people about the head and shoulders and attempt to bury them in some kind of collective guilt.

Yes - I think that is what is at work here.

John P said

Lizzie, please pay attention to those who tell you that many people who care deeply about the same issues you care about won't talk about it in your presence. If you stay true to form, you are now going to tell me that I don't care about the plight of Native Americans. You'd be wrong, but I can't prove that to you. The fact is that I don't want to be associated with you. I think you do more harm to the cause than good and I don't want anyone thinking I'm anything like you at all. And yet I still care deeply about oppressed people everywhere. Go figure.

Good observations and advice.

Many Americans have been watching one case that is trying to make a huge difference in the status of tribal people in the U.S. Cobell v. Salazar has been in play since the Clinton administration. Here is a summary. Also, here in the Atlantic Monthly is a plain-English description of the case and outcomes.

John P also asked

I'm also wondering why people who grew up in and live in white society but had a Native American ancestor three or four generations back think they are in some way Native American. Isn't the way you spend your life, the culture that you actually live in, a more important determining factor?

There is no easy answer to this question. In the 1950s the US government tried resettling reservation Indians to urban centers, trying to mainstream the populations. It didn't work - it created pockets of poverty and lack of cultural support for a lot of people who today still have claims to do with land and royalties but are scattered and intermarried with other cultures and have descendants who are picking up the pieces. Within multi-cultural families one of the biggest questions in Indian Country is "who is an Indian?" Blood quantum is everything for enrolled members of recognized tribes, but is a thorn in the side of those who refused to join the Dawes Act sell-out in 1887. Is Indianness genetic, cultural, traditional, etc.? There's no easy way to slice it - the feds totally messed up when it came to managing Indian lands and taking on the role of Big Brother to (perceived) child-like Indian people. Treaties and agreements abound, and the Dawes Act is a shining star in the codifying of internecine Indian disputes among themselves and with the U.S. government ever since.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:56 PM

I think Lizzie's bucking for sainthood.

Joan of Irk.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:29 PM

More likely Liz of Orc.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:32 PM

LOL......Don, she'll think I was writing to you for sure!!!

Lizzie's been PMing the livin' hell out of me and I finally just said she was being nominated for Sainthood as the Saint of Bluster and Blather......or wait.....it was Shinola and Blather but I now will change my nomination to Bluster and Blather. Hope I can catch that guy I paid to cast the medals!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:35 PM

It is always fascinating to watch when social approval to be at the very least rude and nasty to someone is given...people look around, see who is giving permission, evaluate their social status and hence ability to give permission, and some will just follow suit. Not everyone of course, but a substantial number of people keep sniffing the air to get a whiff of who or what they can be abusive towards or about. Once they figure a group is no longer permitted to be abused they move on to the next one.

And I have a Native American great grandmother. i have a right to know about her, although she was just listed as An Indian Woman on a marriage certificate..I don't know what tribe..could have been Mohawk. But whatever I do to include her in my life is what I will do.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:37 PM

"It's ludicrous," says Doug Grell, an FBI special agent stationed in the Rapid City office for the past 19 years. "We framed Leonard Peltier? Well, if the government is trying to frame Leonard Peltier, we got awful lucky, didn't we? We just happened to pick a guy who was there and who admits to shooting at the agents."


Read my previous posts on the FBI, Myrtle Poor Bear and the agent who framed Elmer Geronimo Prat, also wrongly incarcerated in the American Justice System for around 30 years before finally being released. M Wesley Swearingen, ex-FBI agent fought for the release of Elmer, for he KNEW they'd framed him.

Wes is also now helping on the new film about Leonard Peltier, hopefully due out in 2013 'Wind Chases The Sun'......

If you believe *anything* the FBI says about this case, then, you are a fool. What you *should* be asking is WHY the FBI are paranoid, to the point of insanity, about Leonard being set free...and whose backs they're trying to cover. Also, check out what just happened to happen to John Trudell's family, very shortly after he was threatened by the FBI.

Maybe you believe in coincidences.
I don't.
Maybe you believe the FBI would *never* do something so horrendous.
I do.

You do the research, gargoyle..


Someone sent me this today...thought I'd put it in here to show that hatred is still alive and well...

Sacheen Littlefeather still being insulted over 30 years later, this time on Jay Leno's show

And from that link comes this part, recalling earlier days:

"John Wayne was backstage, and he became very upset at my speech, and it took four to six men to restrain him from coming to drag me off stage," says Littlefeather.

After the show she read the full speech in a press conference and The New York Times published it in its entirety.

Littlefeather says she was immediately blacklisted in Hollywood. She received death threats and was lied about in the media, with some reports claiming, for example, that her Native dress for the Oscars event was rented. (It was her Northern Traditional pow wow dance outfit.)

"I found out from friends in the industry that they had been visited by FBI agents right after the Academy Awards who had threatened to put them out of business if they hired me. In those days [the FBI] planted a lot of seeds in the media," she says, referring to the FBI's efforts to infiltrate many of the social movements of the day in divide and conquer tactics to discredit and destroy civil rights groups like the Black Panthers and the American Indian Movement...."


Sacheen's speech at the Awards












And..if you have Native American blood in your ancestry, then a lot of people want to explore more, for that is where they come from, in part. They may equally explore the other parts of their heritage, or they may not.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:04 PM

Atta girl, Liz, same old river of bullshit as always. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Can't you change it just a little, for entertsinment's sake if nothing else??


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:40 PM

SRS... "There is no easy answer to this question. In the 1950s the US government tried resettling reservation Indians to urban centers, trying to mainstream the populations. It didn't work - it created pockets of poverty and lack of cultural support for a lot of people..."

That is so sad. But, it does not just point at the blame of the US government. When I mull that over, I can't help but wonder why those that were "given an opportunity" and took it didn't raise their less fortunate brothers "up" along side them. I see it here to this day and HERE it is FAR more serious, given the opportunities afforded our local Native brothers. Long storeyssssss. Shameful not only in MY opinion but among some of my Native brothers. Maybe I shouldn't say this but it is the truth. One of my Native brothers will NOT "use" his status, even to raise his family of four boys. They could have free uni and otherwise but he just won't do it. He could hunt and fish all year long and provide but he just won't do it. My ex was of the same. I disagree with that but I understand it because I know the recent history.

And, as for Peltier, there is a long thread on that. Anyone wants to know my opinion of that convicted killer can read it and can read the court record. Case closed for me. Being a Native brother is no defense for murder, proven by an eye witness, now dead by Lee's bullet, in my books.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:36 PM

The largest city in the State of Washington is Seattle (where I live), named after Si'ahl ("Seattle" is an Anglicized spelling of the way the name was pronounced), chief of the Suquamish and Duwamish tribes. Although Chief Seattle had waged war from time to time against other tribes in the area, he welcomed the white settlers. In fact, he helped them survive during their first winters in the area.

Although there were one or two small skirmishes with some of the younger Indians, there were no "Indian wars" or battles in the area. And those that did happen, Chief Seattle did not participate in and, in fact, deplored.

Some nearby cities, such as Tacoma, bear Indian names, as do many rivers, such as the Duwamish, Skykomish, Snoqualmie, and Stillaquamish.

My great-grandfather, Robert Firth, came from Scotland to the area with the Hudson's Bay Company in 1851 and was assigned to survey the San Juan Islands north of Puget Sound for sheep raising. The site of my great-grandfather's house on San Juan Island is now part of a national park.

Every year, some 6,000 "war canoes" would arrive at the San Juan Islands from as far away as the Queen Charlotte Islands off the west coast of British Columbia, not to make war, but to aid the local farmers in getting in their crops, for which the Indians received a share of the harvest. This made winters a great deal easier for the local Indian tribes.

All in all, the settlement of the descendants of Europeans in the Pacific Northwest was a peaceful process.

There are "Indian reservations" in the area, but no Native Americans are forced to live there if they do not wish to.

But—there are certain advantages for those who do.

No Federal, State, or local taxes. And this includes taxes on such things as the sale of cigarettes and other tobacco products, which off-reservation, have substantial taxes added. But the smoke shops on the reservations can raise the prices of cigarettes well above the basic retail price, but still sell them for far less than one would have to pay for tax-stamped cigarettes off reservation.

Also, the sale and use of fireworks for 4th of July celebrations, save by authorized companies who put on fireworks displays over Lake Union and Elliot Bay on the Fourth) are against the law in this state. Nevertheless, one CAN by fireworks such as firecrackers and "cherry bombs" ON the reservations—allowing small children to blow their fingers off!

And although gambling, especially gambling casinos are illegal in the State of Washington, they are NOT illegal on Indian Reservations. And these casinos are money machines. Although few of them are as lavish as those in Las Vegas (gambling being legal in Nevada, unlike Washington), They make PILES of money for the tribal councils, presumably used to better the lives of those living on the reservations. As well as the gambling tables (roulette, blackjack, poker, miles and miles of slot machines), most of the casinos offer large and lavish Vegas-style shows, with nationally known entertainers.

And there are such casinos on Indian reservations all over the country.

ALL TAX FREE!!

You know, Lizzie, despite some of the unpleasantness that has gone on in the Dakotas, which I DO deplore, it's a little difficult for me to get too worked up over the "plight" of a group of people who, in general, are more privileged than I am!

Be it known forthwith that I categorically reject Lizzie's attempt to impose collective guilt on all non-Indian Americans as an ignorant and mean-spirited accusation.

Don Firth

P. S. The bronze statue of Chief Seattle at the intersection of 5th Avenue and Denny Way, just outside of the Seattle Center grounds:    CLICKY.   The iconic Space Needle in the background, the monorail to the right in the photo.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:43 PM

By the way, I should make it clear that the Indian smoke shops, fireworks stands, and casinos were there for the purpose of selling their wares to NON-Indians from off the reservations.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

Lizzie's been PMing the livin' hell out of me and I finally just said she was being nominated for Sainthood as the Saint of Bluster and Blather

Sainthood won't do, Spaw - she couldn't stand simply being one of the pantheon of the beatified.

She needs to be The Great White (Wasichu) Mother, sittith at the right hand of the Father & all that; nothing less would do.

Or perhaps she could be the new, martyred female Christ of the Injuns - suspect she has cultivated the stigmata to show already.

The best part is that she doesn't realize that thru her mis-ministrations and her infantilizing of the Native Americans en masse she has done more harm to them and their cause than the Sioux Wars of 1876-1877, Sand Creek, the Washita, and all the atrocities of the last 300 years combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

Liz's page makes a real difference, you know.

The power of Facebook


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:10 PM

Can I offer an arguement without being shat upon? Hahahahaa.

Anyway, kinda what Don just posted. Those wars (and make NO mistake... the white man waged terrible wars on the Red man and inflicted unthinkable death and hardship) happened a long time ago. There are still "wars" going on but they pale in comparison. Today, many believe our Native brothers have many opportunities. They do, for the MOST part, but many do not and SOME have been cited herein.

It bothers me greatly that it appears some people are so out of touch with the existing hardships of our Native brothers and cling to "righting OLD wrongs" which cannot be done anymore than has been done, exhaulting our Native brothers as being all wise when is just isn't so... people are people... white... red... purple. Here's my deal. I am a person. Don't fuck with my space. I won't fuck with yours. You need help? I will help you. I hope you will help me. But, don't ask me to give up my space simply because of my colour. And, by the way, I have NEVER personally talked to any of my Native brothers who have said I should do so. I've read it in the media and in threads like these but never heard those words first hand from my buddies.

By Native law, nobody owns their space. They only occupy it while they are alive. Can anyone dispute that Native law as it was taught to me? If so, go back home, wherever that may be, and make more space for me and for my Native brothers. I ain't goin nowhere. My rent is up to date.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:29 PM

Hmmm... stop the Lizzie bashing, eh? She doesn't deserve any of that nasty crap. Especially from guests who haven't the balls to post under real/consistent names. I may disagree with her on some points, but that shit is inane and only displays your own ignorance. Got something to add? Do so. Otherwise, troll off.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:43 PM

Lizzie rocks!!
=(:-( D)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:42 AM

Strikes me some people don't like intelligence in a woman, and they definitely don't like women who stand up for themselves, and answer back.
Too many of the posts on here, anonymous or otherwise, are about who is posting, and not, what she is posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:58 AM

I like her. She's got spunk and fire.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:29 AM

I don't know anything about her except her postings, which I find -- for the most part -- both rude and misguided. Misguided I have no problem with -- there's lots of it about -- but rude is a different matter. I don't like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:06 AM

Actually, John McK- its that people tend not to like self-aggrandizing, obnoxious, misguided, canting assholes - whether they be male or female doesn't signify.

And the comments are most definately about what garbage she posts and how she posts it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:15 AM

Greg is a misogynist.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:21 AM

Well Greg, she cares, she's passionate in her beliefs, and if she's wrong then it's up to you and others to persuade her of the error of her ways. Yes I know she's dogmatic, but that's not against the law, and is no excuse to launch a personal attack, which for most people is forbidden on Mudcat. However its appears to be allowed in Lizzie's casel.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:39 AM

John - Look back at the thread. Lizzie hurls abuse and personal attacks at the drop of a hat. I did start off (post 3 or 4 or threabouts) trying to say that I don't believe the holidays should be purloined for political purposes. On suggesting something practcal may be better than face book I got -

I'm helping to arrange the visits...dimwit...many of the pages are all linked up 'behind the scenes' sharing info, sharing posters, sharing ideas and phone calls and emails....Double Dimwit!!

Followed up by

And now, as I said above, go back to your Shitty Campaign of trying to get others to hate me.

So I responded. very politely I believe. in an open letter. I am not going to malicious lies be spread about regardless of who spreads them.

I am not even going to bother posting Liz's response. Go and read it yourslef and THEN start preaching about personal attacks.

I did try my best to engage in debate and offer what I thought was reasonable advice. But I only have two cheeks to turn. When they run out I will hit back.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:41 AM

Sorry - Missed the close italics. From 'So I responded' are my words.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:43 AM

This is fun.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:03 AM

Sorry Dave hadn't read the posts you quote, and maybe Lizzie needs to cool it too. However I still see no valid reason fpor some of the ad hominem attacks on her. Also it may just be that she's as pissed off as I am about the villification. Hence the bite back, but calling someone a dimwit isn't high in the heinous crimes list ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:21 AM

she's passionate in her beliefs

Well, John, so was Pol Pot, and a host of others. Didn't mean they were right.

I also seem to remember something about

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


I'm not personally attacking Liz. I don't know Liz, never met her (thank God, but that's another issue).

What I DO know are her postings and how she presents herself, her self-aggrandizing crusade, her patent nonsense and mis-information (dare I say lies?) - and THATS whats being attacked.

Do take it up with Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:24 AM

Mr. McBollox: Thank you. Nail hit squarely on head.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:24 AM

So are you comparing Lizzie with Pol Pot?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:13 AM

Jan, hailing from Bradford on Avon, agrees with the attitude of the opening poster---all the English colonists should have been slaughtered the minute they stepped on land.    The American Indians should have recognized them for the existential threat they were--- much more, in fact, than the French were.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:23 AM

So are you comparing Lizzie with Pol Pot?

Don't be an ass, John - you know perfectly well what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM

You're a bully. Picking on a poor woman.
=(:-( o)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

Greg F. ... you have posted more on this thread than anyone else .... I'm beginning to think you are lunatically obsessed with the woman .... if not you would certainly ignore her.

There must be an emptiness within your own psyche Greg, demanding to be filled, that you a fanatical adherent to fight he Cause.

now,with that being said ..

I'm outta this madcat thread ... I suggest others here go and enjoy a cold turkey sandwich and take a nice late autumn walk. It will soothe your soul, and God knows many here need that.

biLL   ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:05 PM

Greg F obsessed by a personal grudge?    Totally impossible. He's the soul of tolerance and civil behavior.    You can easily see this by reading any number of threads he has graced.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:13 PM

Hi there, Ron Simple Seeker Fount Of All Knowledge Worth Knowing Davies.

Fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

It's not me who's being assinine in dragging in a total non sequitur, in order to continue a discussion about Thanksgiving.
Sorry Greg, but I agree with biLL. Methinks ye doth protest too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:16 PM

Atta boy, Bill - hit & run, the classic coward's way.

And no- the person that has posted more on this thread than anyone else is .... wait for it... Saint Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:21 PM

As I said, John - take it up with Saint Liz, not me.

And actually it WAS you that dragged in a total non sequitur: the one about her being "passionate in her beliefs" as if that meant anything and/or excused all else.

You'll also notice that its hardly only me that finds her obnoxious.

Take it up with them, as well.

And THEN fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM

QED


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:39 PM

Game set and match to me ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM

I think Greg needs to fuck off.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:53 PM

No words from me are needed about some of the messages above, for those who have posted them reveal far more about themselves than I could ever do.

To get back to the thread....Words from Floyd, a man for whom I have the greatest respect. Like Chief Oren Lyons he was a man of great Honour, Integrity and Intelligence, loved and respected by many people around the world. I am merely one of those people. The video these words are taken from is below. Please, those who care, find the time to watch it. - Thank you


From Floyd Red Crow Westerman of the Dakota Sioux Nation:
>>>"....What happened to the Indigenous Peoples of this country is much like the Jewish Holocaust, only America's ethnic cleansing was at the hands of people who would later claim innocence in the name of god, freedom and democracy.

Historians have been reluctant to use the word 'Holocaust' to describe the taking of the land in the shaping of America. Instead they use rhetoric like 'The New Frontier', or claim that the Indians were savage after all, or describe it as 'Manifest Destiny'. Manifest Destiny means that the taking of the land was not only justified, but ordained by god. Most schools in America still teach this feelgood version of history.

'America's War On Indian Nations' tells another side of the story. This series will tell the truth about gross injustices and rampant human rights violations inflicted upon an entire culture. Early-day Europeans who came to America were commissioned to look for gold. With gold the objective, it meant that nothing would stand in their way.

State by state various tools of genocide were employed in what became a systematic clearing of the land.
The first of these tools was the bullet. The bullet was used to kill many millions of my People. Another tool of genocide was the smallpox infected blanket. To Indians the blanket was a dominant trade item. To give a blanket was a gesture of respect. Knowing this, early Americans distributed smallpox blankets in order to exterminate and eradicate the existing population. Those who survived this early form of biological warfare were removed by government-funded militias and more bullets.

Imagine being in your home having dinner with your family, when suddenly, armed intruders break in and shoot your parents, take your children, burn your house, the children to be later used as servants and sex slaves. And if you survived *that*, to be rounded up like cattle and put on death-marches to remote locations far from your homeland and put on reservations, a nicer term for what they *really* were, concentration camps.

This horrific scenario is what happened to thousands and thousands, if not millions, of Indian people.

For my ancestors, the Dakota, Lakota and Nakota, this policy of concentration camp lifestyle was in effect from 1890 to 1930. For 40 years my People were prohibited by law from leaving the reservations.

The ethnic cleansing was effective. It is estimated that when Columbus arrived there were approximately 20 million Indians in America. By the end of WWII only 500,000 remained. This means that complete extermination was accomplished.

Listen to the words of some of the Founding Fathers of this country.

George Washington, revered as the father of this country wrote, and I quote: "Indians were wolves and beasts who deserved nothing from the whites but total ruin."

Thomas Jefferson, acclaimed proponent of freedom and democracy argued that the United States Government was *obliged*, and I quote: "...to pursue Indians to extermination, or to drive them to new seats beyond our reach."

Andrew Jackson, founder of the modern democratic party and the greatest Indian killer of all American presidents, urged United States troops, and I quote, "..to route out from their dens and kill Indian women and their whelps."

It is a great irony that American Indians, after being denied for many years their right to practice their own religion, speak their own languages, after being forced to live in the oppressive concentration camp lifestyles, after all that, Indians have gone on to become staunch defenders of this country in times of need. More Indians have received the Congressional Medal of Honour, per capita, than any other group.

We remain a proud People in spite of the efforts to exterminate us.

In order to heal, we first must accept our past."<<<<<

These words above are taken from Floyd's introduction to excerpts from 'Exterminate Them - The California Story, from the documentary series 'America's War on Indian Nations.


If you have not seen this video, please, watch it.

Exterminate Them - The California Story from 'America's War Against the Indian Nations


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM

Hey, Ron - then don't fuck off. I don't give a shit either way.

Oh and John, sorry about that - you can SOD off - since you can offer nothing to add to the discussion but empty platitudes & nugatory comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:15 PM

Whoever said

I suggest others here go and enjoy a cold turkey sandwich and take a nice late autumn walk. It will soothe your soul

Is likely to incur the wrath of Liz! The whole point of this thread is that you should NOT enjoy your thanksgiving Turkey. You should weep, wail and shriek over the way American Indians are treated instead.

Or you could do as I suggest and ignore the nay-Sayers. If anyone wants to have a beat yourselves up over the treatment of {fill in your own pet ethnic peoples} then get your own day; DON'T steal someone else's holiday.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:30 PM

Another view that is cogent and worthwhile.

The figure of 20,000,000 makes no sense. It's more likely ten million, not that that isn't bad enough. However, please be informed that there are three people here I know personally who have worked with Indian people in various places and in various capacities.

One of the great realizations I had in my younger years is that even Indians lie when it's to their benefit to do so. The 20,000,000 figure is one such possibility.

There is altogether too much acrimonious shit on this thread, so intelligent discussion isn't really possible.

The dam on the Amazon will bring electricity to 16 million people. I am not in favour of the way the builders are going about it. Because I don't spend hours writing to the Brazilian government doesn't mean I don't care. I am involved with some other things that are equally important and imo equally worthy. No offense to anyone, but that's the way I see things and that's that.

Issues like this certainly touch the passions of people. I think Y'ALL oughta back off a bit and consider what you're saying.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:36 PM

Hi, Liz - thanks for the additional nonsense.

By the way:

Still waiting for info requested in posts 22 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM & 22 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM.

Also, just wondering, have you ever met or talked to Chief Oren Lyons or Floyd Red Crow Westerman? Ever been to California? Ever studied U.S. history in depth?

Or is all you know what you read on internet blogs, FarceBook, and see on YouTube?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:40 PM

Bruce....

Bianca Jagger on Belo Monte


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:47 PM

Bruce, the theory is that coastal tribes were contacted by Europeans over the centuries and diseases traveled inland via usual trade routes and migratory patterns, so by the time the actual conquest began, the populations were already historically sharply reduced. Take a look at Keepers of the Game by Calvin Martin. His concluding chapter about warfare on game is a bit of a stretch, but the rest of the book is excellent.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:04 PM

Thanks, SRS.

In return, if it's still available, see if you can locate "The Myth of the Savage" by Olive P Dickason. Great book and wonderful teacher.

While she didn't 'glorify' native North Americas, she also didn't allow them to be denigrated or allow their various cultures to be misrepresented.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

Amherst & Bouquet


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 04:38 PM

There was a conscious and considered move to exterminate Native North Americans, Liz. That's just one of the decisions. Some of the killing was intended and some accidental. Amherst wasn't alone. Read the "nits breed lice" remark--should be easy to find on-line. I have to get for a bit.

But keep in mind, everyone here is not against you.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:00 PM

Beavers build dams and those dams improve the environment. If humans build dams they also may improve the environment but should only do so if they take care of the people and the environment affected. What practices, programs and policicies will these human dam builders use to further enhance the environment and the peoples these dams will displace? If none, damn the dams. If there are sound practices, programs and polcies then I would suggest Jagger is stunned as me arse OR simply making donation money from tugging heart strings.

Hey... ya cannot stop the beavers. We beavers have been INCREASING the quality of human life for... well, since we figured out how to grow apples for Eve better than God. Fire, flood, pestulence? Pfffft. Beavers have that shit beat for the most part. God? The Beaver is God. And, ya cannot deny The Beaver. That is a step BACKwards.

Soooo... if you have proof that the Beavers are totally ignoring the environment and the peoples affected, cite it.

And don't ask me to cite proof that The Beavers are working on this. I couldn't be arsed to bother searching it all and reading it. As a proud Beaver, I just know it's there. On accounta, I wear the ring of a Royal Canadian Beaver, Camp Number 9, sworn to protect the public above ALL else. If I don't, I lose my Beaverness. The Brazilion Beaver is no different. Said it on the other thread... send in your money... see where it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

What upsets me so very much, Bruce, is that a lot of Native Americans feel, to this day, that no-one cares about their history, as in *truly* cares...

It really emotionally hurts them when Columbus is celebrated or Thanksgiving is not discussed in the way it should be now..

They *want* to heal themselves, but they need support and that comes in many forms. My way of supporting is to let them know that many people care deeply about them, about their past and where they are now in the present. It's shouting out about bastards like John McCain and those within the FBI...

Yes, I know there are ruthless, arrogant people in all races, but honestly, I've now heard the same story from so many who have written to me, thanking me, saying it makes them feel so pleased to feel that *finally* people are starting to care and stand beside them...

How would the Jews feel if, for example,instead of Andrew Jackson, the American currency had Hitler on the dollar bills?

Anyway.....



Below are some words that someone put on one of the photos on my page. I mentioned that genocide is still happening to many Indigenous People. Here is what she wrote, with my answer to her, and it is words like these which drive me on, no matter what others may throw at me or think of me.

I do what I do for people such as Ansata:




>>>Ansata: "Yes it is! I could tell you of what happened yesterday, the day before, the day before that.....and today."


Support Chief Raoni: "Ansata, no matter what happens, please know this, that I have the GREATEST respect for your People. There are so many 'out here' who are right beside you and spreading this story across the world. Stay Strong and be so, SO PROUD of who you are!"


Ansata: "Oh Ka"piik'shi!!! (thank you) for your words! I haven't been told these things since many of my family elders passed! I didn't realize you knew my people! so many are unaware of Kikapoo or as we say Kiiwegapawa & Kikaupa, many even believe we are gone! whiped out!! Yet our numbers are the highest now since the very first occupation! But yes I face the horrors of racism everyday, in one shade or another (as we all do) which always shoots me back to the, much worse sufferings of our people.

In my lifetime, & I'm only 40!, for instance: Three of my beautiful Aunties (& one unborn child) were murdered, & many dear ones fell victim to suicides-we've had 7. Unfortunately this list goes on-as well as for so many of our people out there. This current pain thrust upon us each day...combined with our Ancestral pain!

I feel this is why we as Native people face such traumas in our homes as well-the Ancestral pain is so sadly embedded within our very spirit's, & many forgot how to live in the Circle.

But Again I thank for you repect of my Tribe & me! For your beautiful words-that Help Now more than you can imagine!...it felt more like a Huge Hug of Solidarity and Compassion that I needed so much-beyond words! YES I am SO very PROUD of who I am! and YOU! and my Nation!! & I will til my day comes to join my people on the other side of this circle :) ..No'Ki'ki'no'w'Depana!! ...(we never say goodbye :)"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:31 PM

Andy jackson's a bad choice for your argunment, Liz. Ever heard of the Trail of Tears?

And playing the Hitler card, too. You really ARE a piece of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:43 PM

That's why I do it, Bruce...because at times, their pain is absolutely palpable.

You know me, you know my emotions run deep and at times I'm all over the place because of them..but I *feel* that pain she speaks of..and it breaks my heart,as well as lighting a furnace of anger inside me.

This should *not* be happening in this day and age..

You know, on that film I linked to in the Abe Lincoln thread, 'Dakota 38', where some Lakota men rode to Mankato to offer the hand of peace out and to honour their 38 ancestors who were hanged there, there was a young man, Billy Ray, who was on that journey for many reasons....He spoke of not really mixing with white people much, feeling they didn't care and had done so much harm etc. yet he found that many of the white people he met on that journey were there to help in every way they could, one man even putting his own life on the line when he went to try to get food for the horses, getting stuck in a blizzard and it changed his entire outlook, made him feel *cared* about.

He learnt so much on that journey, as did all who came into contact with those riders..

But at the end of the video there is a 'One Year Later' part, and an 'In Memory Of' section ...and so many of them had died within a year of this beautiful film being made. Many were older men, so it was the natural way of things, but some were so young, so very young.

Billy Ray was one of the youngsters who had died...

I am assuming he committed suicide, for he admitted to being deeply depressed. He was such a lovely lad, they all were...and yet this Great Sadness took him too...It shouldn't be happening.

No more Trail of Tears..
And yet, there are so many who are walking that trail, each and every day and so many of them are walking it alone...

Dakota 38


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:11 PM

I am assuming

You seem to do that a lot, Liz, instead of sticking to facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:55 PM

You're in over your head, Greg.
Better back away.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:15 AM

All the historical stuff about Thanksgiving is so much fakelore, anyhow. Thanksgiving wasn't much of a feast until the 1940s. But hey, I got to the best part of Thanksgiving today - the turkey soup.
It was delicious.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:26 AM

Actually, my favorite part of the turkey is the sandwich.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:32 AM

Mine's still thawing and uncooked.
I haven't had any turkey.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:35 AM

It may spoil before I get to eat it. Won't be the first time.
=(:-( ))


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 05:28 AM

Turkey soup Joe! Does that mean Krankie Krinkle is cooked?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:18 AM

Turkey soup? Ohhhhh yeahhhh mmmmmmmmm.

And, it's times like that when I miss being fat. Left over turkey, spuds, carrots, turnip, and fresh onions in a hash fried just this side of burnt and smothered in gravy. I think I heard my scales groan just now.


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