BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 01:52 AM

My dear pete. The only quantum jump is expressed in the mental leap that a 2000 year old and older set of stories forms the basis of whatever sentient force you may wish for. I reckon if we were to notice design, it would be more likely now in the age of fairly radical technology than when superstition filled the gaps in knowledge.

Ok. That was a far more serious answer than I intended. I'll stick to concernered or however he spells it. Seems he owns a tambourine after all. Some of his best friends are of the cloth? Well, funnily enough one or two of mine are, including a brother in law back at college at an advanced age to become a vicar. I respect his need to do good works in a community and accept that the dog collar opens doors to help the needy. Society is still set up to put vicars on pedestals.

I also respect that it wasn't the professionals in the Synod that wished to perpetuate inequality, it was the laity.

But still, CofE is in the same boat as any other cult. It is all about controlling your members and swelling the ranks. No matter how much you have a pint with a vicar mate, you remind yourself of the things they say from the pulpit each and every week and your respect for the professional is different to your respect for the mate.

Bugger. Done it again. Tried giving a serious answer.

Oh well.

Here concerned! You realise that once your balls drop and you start growing hairs everywhere your friends of the cloth will drop you both from the choir and the bed?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 07:29 AM

Hey wizzjet!!! gnomet, stringsnapper and the rest of you half educated gullible,latchicos.. you really don't need me to point out your crassness and stupidity..you are more than capable of doing that yourself.

Stringbreaker.. define good.

Gnomet..is that the best you can do?

You are wrong there wizzget..I don't post just to mock..mind you that can be fun.

Look on it as rather a little education for yourselves in how to cast and fly and watch you shoal of sados fight each other to jump on the bait...never fails!!

Here yourself muskcrap!!.. the balls and hair is a great idea.. some of your more brighter playmates have pointed out I am the wrong gender..DuuuuuuuuuuuuuuH You might have realized that a long time ago instead of all your pseudo intellectual posturing... again I have proved to much for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 10:43 AM

You are so funny, Conc dear. I love it. I can do far better thanks and probably have already. I know the difference between here and hear anyway. You know, if you keep chatting to the grown ups a bit of intelligence may well rub off on you but that may be your downfall if you want the scripture job. Just remember that some of the people outside your institution will not be as nice to you as we are.

Out of interest though, do you think your friends of the cloth are not con men themselves? Does the fact that they try to sell something that does not exist not sort of tar them as con men of the worse kind? Do you believe what they tell you? If so, I happen to have a friend who passed away in Nigeria leaving no heirs and to get at his fortune I could do with your bank details...

Bull Ox.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket wondering?
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

So.. Is it a girly after all? We need someone to make the teas after holy bingo...

I should make an effort to know the difference. I go to Thailand in a weeks time. Harder to tell the difference there, although the Adams Apple usually gives the game away.

Dave. This Nigerian. Do you think they could make a will based donation to the new one true religion?

Tell them to tick the gift aid box if they can.

In honour of your gnomish tradition, I say to you

Kerrymuir Durham.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:59 PM

"all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible.
assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump ..."

Hey, pete! I thought you were comfortable with the concept of ineffability? ... Or was it unintelligibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:19 PM

I was asked to define good. Well, what it isn't is those who claim that it's god. The history of religion is enough evidence to support this claim.

Inside the human brain, there exists the potential for survival which is actually doing
less harm and more helpful actions to others. "Good" is the realization that how you treat others is important and the better you treat people around you, the better chance our species has for survival. Stopping wars would be a good first step to achieving a kind of "good" for humanity. The antonym, of course, is "bad" which can be defined as the actions of those who look out for themselves at the expense of other's needs.

Franz de Waal in his book, "The Age of Empathy" suggests that because of his scientific study of primate behavior, working together to build common interests, being empathetic and sympathetic to others is possibly built into our DNA. That's one meaningful definition of good.

This is not a requirement for most religions. If it were, you'd have more enlightened behavior from religious people.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars links
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:32 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.
I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 04:10 PM

I am pretty sure it can't be a girly Messiah M. I have never met a woman so, how can I put this, errrrm, special. Yes, that will do. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that they exist and I would hate anyone to say that a woman cannot be as stupid special as a man should she so choose. But we do need to look at the evidence.

BTW - Went to the Hitching Stone on the Yorks/Lancs border today. Another spectacular view of the Holy Mountain.

Lox.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 05:58 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.

Can anyone here tell me if this means anything??

I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.

Oooo, kinky!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 06:06 PM

Conkerened may actually be a new gender, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it. Bollocks and fanny rolled into one, quite likely with a good covering of droopy man-chesticles and all finished with the finest Brazilian. What I do know is that conkers has never actually made a single debating point. He, she or it is very good at colourfully delivering insults (very amusing, actually, and I've archived one or two in case Wacko decides to make a concerted return). The world with him is richer than one without him. Her. It.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true.

Here's a tangent for those taking the thread seriously. As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, does that make those who do wicked things in support of their religion atheists?

After all, on the wireless last night an Immam was disowning those who attacked churches in Pakistan. The Archbishop of Canterbury recently called abortion clinic terrorists in Dumbfuckistan evil.

I take it religious terrorists are atheists then? No wonder loony God botherers use atheist as an insult. They include those who take their own cult too seriously. You can reach world domination by proselytising or by wiping out the competition eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, that makes those who do wicked things in support of their religion....assholes.

Next question?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM

When I posted that I wondered if Joe might wade in. I have in the past questioned those like Joe who see the good in their faith as to why they carry on giving respectability by association to those who see religion as a tool rather than an ethos.

Keep fighting Joe, but to be honest, the race to irrelevance in the eyes of others is being won by the "assholes." Me? I'd use more colourful language to describe them but hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect...

Is that true? I don't see any evidence of it - certainly not in 6,000 years of the Abrahamic Tradition in which Man creates God in his very worst possible own image then goes ahead and imitates him :   

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

*

Love & Respect are human qualities adopted & perverted by religion into something quite evidently meaningless. In real life they exist on a very personal / familial level, they keep things in the balance within the community, however so perilously. But things is mostly good. Religion is made up by misfits and misanthropic outsiders who have failed to fit in to this. It is born of envy and deep seated resentment of misanthropic fuckwits (Old Testament Prophets, Saint Paul et al) who want to pour down Judgement on Humanity for simply Having Fun, because they don't know how to. The Bible is nothing but a relentless catalogue of psychotic misery written, and perpetuated, by a bunch of sad lonely kill joys. They made God in their image - but God died at some point when the concept proved incompatible with the emergent reality that things ain't so bad after all & people stopped going to church because they had better stuff to do.   

In this Post-Religious age, no one knows this more than those who claim to believe. Religion now exists as a sort of Heritage Industry-cum-Revival Folklore. On that level it's not without interest - things like the Thurible at the cathedral at Santiago de Compostella, or the doorway of same (which I've only seen in plaster cast at the V&A) inspire a certain Fortean fascination - but to think that the innocent & wondrous minds of children are still being messed up with the notion that this demonic medieval Idiot God is somehow real (and that he loves them so much he'll send them to hell if they don't do as he says) is one of the more depressing realities of life in the early 21st Century.

Anyhoo - here's a song to cheer the hearts of Militant Atheists everywhere. Remember, we are only Militant because we love the Light of Common Human Reality and want everyone to share in it as is our common right & privilege. Religion exists solely to deny that right, and that reality; as long as it does so then Atheism, and Atheists, will remain Militant.

Linton Kwesi Johnson - Reality Poem

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

" "My transition from the taken-for-granted God as the creator of the universe to a more agnostic position came through Rastafari. I must say it was quite an attractive religion in terms of its ideas. It was against the domination of whites over blacks. It was against colonialism. It was for Africa. It was for rejecting a lot of the materialist values associated with capitalist civilisation. And it had a spiritual dimension that saw God and godliness as some kind of spiritual force with which all human beings were imbued.

But although I identified with these values I couldn't identify with the idea – this might sound arrogant – but I couldn't identify with the idea that Haille Selassie was God. He was just a human being like everybody else." "
       So your really an agnostic Bdiver.Sounds like he believes in a Source/God just not the one the unenlightened teachers tried to give him.C

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 11:24 AM

The other day I had just opened this thread, in order to relish the usual mayhem that tends to occur on these sorts of threads, when there came a knock on the door. I answered said door and was confronted by two ladies representing the Jehovah's Witnesses - a Christian cult of which I know little and don't wish to know more. The next day, whilst walking through my local town centre, I was accosted by an earnest young American gentleman, from the State of Utah, and representing yet another Christian cult called - yes, you've guessed it - the Mormons. Both sets of cultists urged me to read the Bible - whilst the latter also wished me to read another work of fiction called 'The Book of Mormon'.

Is this all just a coincidence or is somebody "up there" trying to tell me something? Perhaps I would benefit from reading the Bible?

On the other hand, the laws of probability say that coincidences are actually quite common because random events often lead to the formation of clusters. Still, God, if you're reading this, please forgive my impertinence ... but then you did create the laws of probability - along with everything else. Are you just trying to confuse me?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM

You see Shimrod, what really happens is that pete, Jerk the Sea Cadet, Ron Davis etc get together and pray for the rest of us to be blighted by annoying God botherers.

Not much point in us trying to do it back to them either. Their God claims to have invented everything including us, yet he only listens to those with a space in their brain for him to fill.

It's a tough life but what can you do?



Les Barker's wonderful song "Jehova's Witness at the Door" is worth a giggle if you feel the need.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:06 AM

So your really an agnostic Bdiver.

Balls.

The Spirituality of humanity is common to each & every one of us. It precedes all notions of God and Religion and exists quite independently of them as simply part / parcel of our humanity : our capacity for love, joy, sorrow, heartbreak, compassion, empathy, beauty, art, music, great works, small works, great food, fast food, beer, pop, pies and cake that make it all worthwhile. It's there in our sense of mystery and wonder; crop circles, UFOs, Stonehenge, Inca Roads, pylons, power stations, saxophones, VCS3s, butter & cheese & all. I dare say it's there in our deepest, darkest fears, even our despair that gives rise to our hopes and dreams. We might weep at music, mountains, sunsets, or those stories that truly inspire us. We all feel it equally, just for different things - the only consensus is diversity.

God and godliness are entirely human concepts; we made it up, every last word of it. Just names, ideas, mutable, different for everyone. Because of that - all of that - the whole 50,000 year totality of human experience on Planet Earth of which I am just one tiny though hardly insignificant part (we each of us are the perceptive centres of our own universe : it begins when we are born & it ends when we die) - not only can we say there is no God, but we can also rejoice in that fact. All there is is the truth of being human. The culture. The residues.

Once upon a time people believed in God; once upon a time people died from UTIs. Get over it. No God. No heaven. No hell. No great loss. The human adventure has barely begun.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:36 AM

Based on the lifetime numbers of eggs and sperms that your parents produced, the chances of the particular ones that turned into you getting together were 250,000,000,000,000,000 to one. One stray flick of the sperm's flagellum over a nanosecond sending him off-course and it would have been somebody else, not you. For that, you get all those decades of life on Earth. I mean, how good is that! You're a winner! So stop wanting even more, afterlifes an' all that! You've had billions of times more than your share already! Make the most of what you have (and you'll find that easier if you get off your knees!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:02 AM

Yeah. My brother has worked most of his life in 3rd world aid. His view is simple.

Live in the Western World? Think you have issues? Well think on this. You have won the lottery. Congratulations.

I suppose the jam tomorrow aspect of religion is pandering to greed and keeps the inbuilt spoilt brat in us happy. That's why I shake my head over the concept. I can see the garden is beautiful without having to thank the fairies at the bottom of it.

And so can anyone else if the brainwashing either fails or wasn't there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:04 AM

Not sure, Messiah S. Working on the basis that nothing ever starts or finishes, just changes state, I think there may be an afterlife. We may not be aware of it but when we shuffle off this mortal coil we do become something else. My theory is that most of us will become glitches on the internet and will pop up every now again as stupid posts on various forums...

Bald Ox

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:08 AM

As Ricky Gervais said, that because Atheists don't believe in an afterlife, they have everything LIVE for and nothing to DIE for. As for my molecules - I've shed countless billions of the things over the last 52 years which are still out there somewhere (matter can't be created or destroyed) but I'm not aware of a single one of them.

After life, after shave, don't hold with any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

I'm coming back as a slug so that I can eat Wacko's lettuces.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Im coming back as Wacko so I can fertilise my lettuces with my own bullshit.

If we come back as gnomes there appears to be a commune of the buggers in my neigjbour's garden. If Einstein is contemplating, the fishing rod makes an ideal prop.

I'd like to come back 30 years ago as Kate Bush's loofah.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:27 PM

"It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it. "

Musket

Indeed he does promote alternatives to religion. He has a foundation and a mission statement.

May I point out sir that there are logical limitations to using your own lack of knowledge as a point of evidence in an argument. Just because you don't know it does not make it not so.


Our Mission

Our mission is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation (US)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 02:45 PM

of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:22 PM

"If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true."

Well you know, de Waal is a non-believer. His books are worth reading.

"of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!

Pete, he isn't intolerant like the fundamentalist Christians are. He is actually pretty open minded and has religious friends. I join him in intolerance for destructive attitudes on the part of some Christians and other religious persuasions when they proclaim how right they are and everyone else is wrong. This is the problem with an absolutist ideology whether religious or otherwise. Dawkins has stated time and again if someone could show him scientific evidence for the existence of a god, he would agree. But, Pete, no one has been able thus far to do so.

Blandiver, you are again hitting the nail on the head. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I personally think it's important to understand how and why people have religious ideas.
I have read Gerald Heard, St. Francis of Asissi, some of Thomas Aquinas, most of the bible, the bhagavad gita, and omnivorous amounts of religious matter. I'm no theological authority but I've been exposed to enough of it to know that it is irrelevant to my life personally although I've found all of it interesting. One interesting feature of Dawkins is his interviews with religious people, listening to them, and inevitably commenting on them.
Most non-believers are humanists with interest in how people think whether they agree with the people or not. I share those interests.

I will have a problem with terms like "your holiness" or anything that makes as the Quakers say "Undue distinction between mankind".

In this sense, I don't consider myself at all militant but like so many of you, I am a searcher but I put my reason before any "faith". Religious people have things to teach me about behavior and attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:15 PM

The Church of the Naivety is indeed a broad church. ...

A word to the wise. Don't go telling pete "he isn't intolerant like the fundamental Christians. " pete does have to live with himself you know. ...

Ok. Our nautical friend has found a loose Chink in what he thinks is the armour of his straw man. I shall attempt to humour him although I doubt he will see any humour.

Overcoming intolerance and fundamentalism sounds good to me. I doubt it amounts to being a religion though. For that you need an imaginary friend to be grateful to and vulnerable children and adults to teach it to.

No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level.

Oh... wrong level. Wrong sailor. Bugger.




Stringsinger. I know de Waal doesn't own a tambourine. I've known it for some time but let Jerk the Sea cadet think he is so bloody clever and original in his posts. Jerk started the original thread quoting de Waal in order to provoke an opportunity to discredit Dawkins in the way his church tells it's members to.

He just assumed nobody would notice his deniability of the de Waal article by saying it doesn't represent his own views.

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:35 PM

you might perhaps not be surprised, stringsinger, that I think evolutionism is an absolutist position. I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc] but the overall paradigm is sacrosanct.
dawkins is IMO not likely to accept evidence for the existence of God , but conversely he has been unable to present evidence for evolutionism. when asked for an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome, he was stumped. the eventual answer given hardly addressed the question.
I should have thought this was pretty fundamental to Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:59 PM

The trouble is pete, that you think we're all so bloody stupid that we'll forget that you've chundered out this tripe before. You do not understand what evidence is, you don't know what a mutation is, you don't know what a genome is, you don't have the faintest idea of what "increasing information in the genome" means, and you wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to interpret anything a tenth as complicated as Richard Dawkins answering a question about science (because you don't know what science is). Your "opinions" are nothing more than the vile regurgitations of some moron or other on some silly website you lean on like a cripple on crutches. You are serially dishonest with us, and, lamentably, you're utterly dishonest with yourself. And you're incredibly lazy to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:11 PM

Mr. Shaw, if your scientific knowledge is superior to pete's you have yet to demonstrate that with your words. Using scientific theories as dogma does nothing to advance science or your credibility.

Please note that I am not saying that pete is right or even that he is making sense. I am saying that he is making about the same amout of sense that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

"No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level."

The point I made had nothing to do with whether you admire it or not. In fact until I posted that mission statement , you did not know it existed. But you still had the nerve to say that some other person was wrong based on your ignorance.

I don't learn much in discussions with deliberately ignorant people. I guess I get some experience in dealing with deliberately ignorant people. Not much else.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

Dearie me, Wacko, you've really lost it this time. You have used the terms "pete" and "scientific knowledge" in the same sentence. However, I must say how good it is to see you back. I can hardly wait for your next obscure and infantile contribution, though I fear I have to be abed presently. Do continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:02 AM

The nerve, as you put it, is the assumption I hadn't noticed the mission / vision of the foundation Dawkins started. Funnily enough some of us are capable of reading and in my case capable of being curious.

Belonging as such runs counter to my disdain of pseudo society clubs in general and in that sense, his foundation has at least one thing in common with religions. But there again so do stamp collecting clubs so don't get excited.

If you don't learn much in discussions, that will explain how your ignorance manages to come over loud and clear ly confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:46 AM

This is all getting far to serious again. Where is our good friend Conc. I miss him. Her. It.

Door locks.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being serious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:57 AM

This IS getting serious. On another thread, one of the serious ones here is trying to impose rules on what you can post and how often.

I propose our new true religion has a troll chapter? We can be a broad church that allows religious zealots and associated bigots to join us, in our laity section, and especially in the troll chapter.

They can have weekly meetings where they complain to each other how rational people laugh at them when they take their god out of their head and try to apply it to hard wired morality and altruism. They can lay bets on the date and time their bloke invented things, both new and already extinct. I reckon they'd be happy. We could have a rule that they have to be taken seriously to their faces to stop them whinging. Tell you what, even tell them this is a form of equality but at the same time have them think it is a form of privilege, just like religious people do now.

They do need to be guarded though. How many gnome guards can you muster?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

" I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc]"

You know nowt about science or evolution Pete. How can "multiverse" be a denomination of "evolutionism"? Explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:33 AM

Well, there is all them mates of mine in your neighbours garden. Multiply that by the number of gardens that may contain Gnomes and I think you will see there are a fair few of us. Proven scientific fact that is!

Didn't like that Broadchurch much. Thought he was better in Doctor Who.

Have you seen the thread on 'What religion is God?' Maybe you could put them out of their misery?

BTW - If I have been reborn a Gnome, what was I before? Could I have been a Troll or is that what I must aspire too? How many other mythical characters must I be reborn as before I can join the mythical being in the mythical Nirvana?

Thingies.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me, but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable [same goes for origins science in general] and is therefore a faith position. the use of the word "denomination" is analogous rather than actual.
I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:49 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me

I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do.

but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable

Well now, most scientists on the planet regard the multiverse hypothesis as nothing more than just that. But pete, you hypocrite you, you can ignorantly pontificate about this whilst at the same time prattling on about your God, who is a million times more unobservable and untestable than any multiverse notion.

I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe

Oh, "had" you really? Where is it then? And what dictionary, pray tell, included a mention of "evolutionism" in its "definition of religion"? Do try to curb the stupid lies, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:26 AM

"I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do. "

Another scientific statement form our humble defender of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:06 AM

Go on then Jack. Prove otherwise.

It is perfectly possible that Steve has a pet slug. Its mental capacity and thought process has the starting gun of a brain area of sorts, altruism towards slug communities and the ability to shout "Big Issue! " at passing snails.

Use of metaphor is a human trait. Not confined to biblical stories.

That's a fiver you owe me Co Messiah S.

Just a note on the multiverse hypothesis. That is a scenario that would explain certain phenomena that puzzle us. The key point being it is a proposed answer to a question that came first. Creationism is an answer that never begged a rational question.

Sorry oh Gnomish one. I reckon that answer was too serious. No matter. If I rip the piss a bit, pete will ignore it and Seaman Stains will shake his head and tell me I am not being serious. Gosh I never noticed. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:05 AM

You still don't get it about science, do you, pete?

Some scientists may display the human failing of dogmatism but science, as a whole is not dogmatic. Scientific models are always, and necessarily incomplete. On-going research, into the various fields of science, lead to new models and new perspectives on old models all the time. In scientific terms there is no such thing as absolute truth.

You, and your fellow religious cultists, on the other hand, fervently believe (poor deluded fools that you are) that you are in possession of the absolute truth. And you also believe that this absolute truth is contained in an old book of dubious origins.

The Jehova's Witnesses who visited me the other day left me a booklet on Creationism vs Evolution. This booklet resorts to the same logical fallacy that you use all the time i.e. the authors purport to have found inconsistencies in current models of Evolution, "therefore", they triumphantly proclaim, science must be wrong and Biblical accounts of Creation must be true! That is stupid, illogical nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM

"well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me"

Whether I do or not is irrelevant; what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

I feel I can discuss religion as I was raised as CoE, also attended Methodist and finally a rather excellent free church, from being a bab up to my teenage years. I read the New Testament in my 20s and still retain a vague interest in theology, although I became a practicing buddhist in the Tibetan tradition for a while too (I did read some Zen texts as well, which were quite remarkable); I received teachings directly from His Holiness the Dali Lama.

The problem is Pete, your statements betray a complete lack of understanding of science, which makes me think you might not have done the groundwork, and just using words like 'multiverse' doesn't mean you are actually discussing science. You're not alone in this, as many, many climate change deniers, BANDits and politicians all use the language of science without understanding what they are actually discussing.

Time to do the groundwork.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:57 AM

In response to some of you half educated morons, the same prunes who think I don't contribute anything valid to this forum and attempt to slag me of i n your pathetic way mebe should consider this: Present-day society is wholly based on the exploitation of the vast masses of the working class by a tiny minority of the population.
That is the class of the landowners and that of the capitalists.

It is a slave society, since the "free" workers, who all their life work for the capitalists, are "entitled" only to such means of subsistence as are essential for the maintenance of slaves who produce profit, for the safeguarding and perpetuation of capitalist slavery.

The economic oppression of the workers inevitably calls forth and engenders every kind of political oppression and social humiliation, the coarsening and darkening of the spiritual and moral life of the masses. The workers may secure a greater or lesser degree of political liberty to fight for their economic emancipation, but no amount of liberty will rid them of poverty, unemployment, and oppression until the power of capital is overthrown. Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze,   in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

So there!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM

Well done! Glad you agree with the co-Messiahs and I about religion. Trouble is, that amount of sense immediately disqualifies you from writing the scriptures. And I miss being a Yegg or a Cake Eater.

Horlicks!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

You copied and pasted that, concerened, you cheating bugger! It is grammatical in a way that is far beyond your linguistic abilities and, stylistically, is nothing like your usual stuff. One has only to compare your intro with the substantive in order to glean that much. Still, I like it. Sort of. A bit of a rant of the sort you might hear from a bloke who thinks the Socialist Worker's Party is a bit right-wing, but not bad for you. keep it coming, you old scrotum you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

Grrr. I corrected that small k before posting. What's occurrin'?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:06 AM

Damn! You had me going there for a minute, Conc me owd pal. Well done again for that. I thought you had actually learned to reason and how to put your point forward and then I realised it was such a different style to your usual it could not be so.

It's all down to Lenin.

You could have at least brought yourself more up to date and copied Lennon word for word instead.

Still, considering, I think it could be at least a C for effort. Must try harder.

Hillocks

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Militant Atheism is not a Religion!
It is a Cause directed to the Liberation of humanity from the shackles of Ignorance, Lies, Superstition, Greed, Oppression and Wholesale Bloody Minded Idiocy in the name of an Entirely Non-existent Supernatural Imperialist Autocracy!