BBC Folk Awards 2014

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM

that's the whole problem oggie. is the music of such a nature that they will have full post bags full of people begging for more? will anyone who hasn't got a couple of Steeleye Span/Martin Carthy albums watch it in the first place, 0r will the first couple of sycophantic introductions a to dirgey folksong/facetious bloody violin solo finish them off.

will the programme planners be rejoicing and saying - we've struck gold! if we fill the channel with programmes like this - our fortunes are assured.

I think not. they will be thinking, thank god that rubbish is over for another year...and really its hard to blame them.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Oggie
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

I enjoyed it and the performers will enjoy their PRS payments. It does no harm to anyone, it may do some good, so why not have a bit a publicity once a year.

It would be nice if it was more than that but it's better than none.

steve

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:36 AM

The words of Child Ballad 100 Willie o' Winsbury were set to the tune of Child Ballad 101 Fause Foodrage by Andy Irvine. They appeared together on the debut album of Sweeney's Men in 1968, sung by Andy Irvine accompanying himself on guitar. The arrangement has found a place in folk music mythology.

Johnny Moynihan wrote in the sleeve notes; "A ballad for which Andy is renowned. He got the text from Child's 'English And Scottish Ballads'; looking up the tune he got his numbers confused and emerged with the wrong air. By chance it suited the song very well."

In 2010, Andy Irvine re-recorded the words to the same tune on his album Abocurragh, adding with a touch of defiance; "This is Child 100. I collected the words from different versions and as the story goes, on looking up the tune, I lighted on the tune to number 101. I'm not sure if this is true but it's a good story".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:41 PM

Outstanding versions of Died For Love and Willie o' Winsbury on the international airwaves - what's not to like?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 03:09 PM

Smooth Operations...adds a bias that I consider unwelcome

Could you explain what you mean by that please, SunrayFC?

From what I know of Smooth Operations, they produce various music programmes for BBC radio where the DJ/Presenter is given pretty much carte blanche in terms of what music they play (Stuart Maconie, Bob Harris, Mark Radcliffe etc.)

What is this perceived bias? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Dicky boy
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM

Well said Silas,in agrement with you could not have put it better...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: SunrayFC
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

Any folk on TV and radio is welcome.

I just wish it wasnt produced by Smooth Operations. It adds a bias that I consider unwelcome and unnecessary.

And far too many names from the folk world are ignored.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 11:10 AM

Thank you very much, Mitch. I appreciate that a lot.

Ed

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM

Ed asked
"The Cecil Sharp tribute concluded with some Morris dancing. Can anyone tell me what the tune was? ... Does it have a particular significance in Sharp's legacy?"

On the 26th December 1899 Cecil Sharp saw Headington Quarry Morris Dances dancing to this tune, Laudnum Bunches, played on the concertina by William Kimber. He wrote down 5 dances that day.

You can see Sharp's manuscript in the Full English archive at http://www.vwml.org/search?qtext=laudnum%20bunches&ts=1392995913024&collectionfilter=HHA;SBG;JHB;LEB;GB;CC;COL;GG;AGG;PG;HAM;MK;

Mitch

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 08:12 AM

well justified...

I think you're right to be positive about folk on tv.

but really one wonders how you would have reacted as a child to much of the music on offer. its all a bit up its own bum. would it draw anyone in, who wasn't in the zone anyway.

much praise for the full English. but is that the way to put a group together. surely all those groups you mention that drew you in, started with people getting together of their own volition and because they felt they had something to give.

and does it need a guitarist of Martin Simpson's genius ability to tie down that gig? bit of a drowning accident going on there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:34 AM

If I may add my t'pennoth about awards. I detest award ceremonies. I think they are narcissist self congratulatory farcical back slapping self promoting shite developed for the industry they are attached to.
However. I think the folk awards are a bit different. Why? Well…..Firstly, there is precious little folk music on TV – there are the superb transatlantic sessions and the occasional documentary like the recent Nic Jones one, but in essence very little. I like to see folk music on TV for no other reason that I like to see folk music on TV. All other genres seem to be well catered for, and I am grateful to have the little that we have. Also, the people who are winning these awards are not household names, ask most people if they know of Bella Hardy or even Martin Simpson and you would get a very blank look. The folk awards are small, intimate and quite nice – and the people who win are all very nice people who are just very good at what they do – not superstars with egos to match, just ordinary people like you and me.
The awards always cause a needless controversy about who won. Who should have won? And the trotted out phrases every year same old faces' etc. All nonsense of course, all of the 'winners' are outstanding in their field and all awards are well justified – the thing is, almost everyone nominated, and many that are not all deserve awards – the talent that is on offer these days within the small world of folk music is immense – better that it has ever been.
It's a great thing to win an award, it does help with an artists profile and although there is no immediate financial reward for winning, it does help with getting bookings and also helps in backing up the individual artist fees.
But for me, it's just nice to see folk music on TV. TV brought me into folk music. In the late sixties and early seventies, looking back through no doubt rose coloured spectacles, these seemed to be a fair amount on TV. The much maligned Spinners, Ian Campbell, The Yetis, Ewan McColl etc and I also remember many a folk performer doing kids shows. If it hadn't been for this exposure then I may have not got 'into' folk at all, and the same applies to many people I am sure.
So, let's have a little less knocking and a bit more appreciation for a well produced show that offers some superb music and a chance to also see some up and coming youngsters into the fold.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:10 AM

Well, I enjoyed it, recorded it, and will watch it again. Each to their own, of course.

A question.

The Cecil Sharp tribute concluded with some Morris dancing. Can anyone tell me what the tune was? I'm certainly no Morris expert but it seemed fairly weak compared with many other Morris tunes that I've heard. Does it have a particular significance in Sharp's legacy?

(approx 7 minutes in on this clip www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYgc5yBGOfw if you've not seen it).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Jim Martin
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:28 AM

Nice tribute to Pete Seeger at the end of programme with sister Peggy!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 05:30 AM

If you have Freeview you don't need to use the red button. Just go to channel 301 or 302.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 05:25 AM

I honestly think we've forgotten where we came from - the enjoyment , the fun, the togetherness - the camerarderie - the chorus singing ,the pints of beer.

That is exactly what Fay Hield is doing with the Soundpost Singing Weekends, Royal Traditions, Bright Phoebus, and the Full English project with grew out of all that. Her awards, even if nominally only for The Full English, are well earned.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 03:44 AM

kyle dear, there is no chip on my shoulder.   I am in favour of everyone enjoying folk music in their own way.

my detractors generally don't allow that what I enjoy is actually folk music.

I've learned to live with snotty little beasts (like Yourself) with their line in poisonous abuse.
now go away and enjoy whatever it is(apart from insulting people|) that a very limited view of things allows you to.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Kyle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:55 PM

Big Al, you should own a chip shop. You have enough on your shoulders to open one. Muppet. It's not for everyone but lots of people do love it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 07:51 PM

yeh its too weird. leave 'em to it. render unto Caesar what is dogmeat and all that.

its folk, but not as weknow it Jim. people get worked up every year, I can't see why. its like the last days of the roman empire, the victories got smaller and more debatable and the victory marches got longer and more grandiose.

who wouldn't swap it for an evening in the 60's listening to Gerry lockran, noel murphy, bill caddick. ian Campbell, derek brimstone...everyone smoking ten number 6 for two bob, a double whisky for four bob.......

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Betsy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 07:12 PM

I can't fault Will Fly in all of his observations with the exception of Marc Chagall. All I know of that person is that as a painter, apparently he's often copied rather badly.
For the rest of it - best Folk singer - not one Male nomination - and overall - the only person who seems to gigging at a place near you was Martin Simpson.
Who are all the rest ?
I don't know who rolls-out the criteria for these awards - but they seem at odds with the folk roots (what we see in our Folk Clubs or in Concerts in our areas ) no doubt compiled by a bunch of London-based pseudo's who compile the final list(s).
Altogether it's a silly meangingless exercise in this format which does absolutely nothing to humanise or promote the enjoyable grass- roots folk music evening experience.
I honestly think we've forgotten where we came from - the enjoyment , the fun , the togetherness - the camerarderie - the chorus singing ,the pints of beer.
It's almost-as if our music has been gazumped by a bunch of uninterested investors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 05:40 PM

I enjoyed the only bit I did see, on YouTube, via CDSS: A Tribute To Cecil Sharp, for the induction of Cecil Sharp as the first member of their "Hall of Fame".

I just wish that they'd listed the performers in the YouTube notes, for those of us who don't get to see their faces most of the time...

~ Becky in Long Beach, USA

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:29 PM

Fair points Will Fly, though my comments were not specifically aimed at you!

My other comment on the red button full show being on this evening (Thursday) was wrong .... as the above cut and paste from the website from "Guest" indicates. "Thursday" refers to when the overnight broadcasts ended this morning...

Must have been all the excitement of the celebrations last night and the lack of sleep (not to mention the wine!)

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM

"Watch on the Red Button
Full live coverage can be seen by pressing the Red Button from any BBC TV channel on your digital TV - from 2000 - 2230 on Wednesday 19th February.

We will also be repeating the whole show on a loop from 2230 until 0745 on Thursday 20th February.

There will be a second chance to watch highlights from the 2014 Folk Awards by pressing red at the following times:
Tuesday 25th February:         2000-0700 following morning
Wednesday 26th February:   2000-2350
Thursday 27th February:       0225-0700 and 2000-2320
Friday 28th February:          0300-0700, 2130-2200 and 2230-2320
Saturday 29th February:       0225-0700"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:00 PM

I ought to get a medal for listening to some of the stuff I've seen in folk clubs over the last forty years.
cheers John

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:41 PM

never mind as the late Eddy Waring used to say, they're all pals in the shower....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:27 PM

With respect, Derek, I'm not "rubbishing" the Folk Awards. I disapprove of them and of awards of that nature, for what I think are good reasons. I've never said anywhere that I think the awards are the most important, or the only aspect of folk music. On the contrary, that's the last thing I think.

Much as I love many sides of music - folk and many other genres - I reserve the right to have a critical opinion of parts of it and voice that opinion in a fair manner. After all, I've spent a large proportion of my life performing music. I'm not a believer in total uncritical, unthinking admiration, and I don't expect that of my own music.

You might as well say that, because I might (for example) be not moved by the paintings of Marc Chagall, I have no right to discuss his work in a critical manner. Which is nonsense. Art generates debate, otherwise it would be utterly boring.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 02:06 PM

It's repeated on the red button this evening (Thursday) from 10.30, on a loop till tomorrow morning.

The folk scene - dance and song - is multi-faceted. A wide variety of genres (from shanties to love songs to Playford dances to clogs), a wide range of stages (from the session in a pub, to arts centres, concert halls, big festivals and the Royal Albert Hall), a wide variety of approaches and styles (unaccompanied ballad to folk-rock). It's wide enough to be able to pick your own personal bit that interests and entertains you. But there's no need to rubbish the bits that don't personally interest you.

An important aspect of the folk scene is the high level of participation - probably more than any other art form. And it's generally welcoming, friendly and inclusive.

The Folk Awards are one aspect of the whole scene. The mistake is thinking that it's the only or even most important aspect. It isn't.

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM

And when Mumford and Sons win best traditional track; best contemporary track; best album ;best folk rock group; best band; trio; and solo artist plus best band ever in the whole of the universe then you might just wonder where it all went wrong.

Tee hee - that's yet another value judgement!

I always find it interesting that people find it necessary to have "folk" on TV - "Good Lord - a whole two hours - aren't we lucky!" - and then get hacked off because some bloody old griping curmudgeon like me dares to criticise the music. As if we should be grateful already. Some of it's good and worthwhile, and some of it ain't, and we have to exercise our own judgments as to what we individually like or dislike - not blanket approval and a "we should be reelly, reelly grateful" attitude.

Anyway, I like being a griping old curmudgeon now and then - and today is one of those occasions. I shall be all sweetness and light tomorrow, and be tweeting like a skylark.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

Do you know I could have predicted every word of this.

BBC puts 2 hours of folk on the TV and people gripe. Cost a load of money in part recompensed by ticket sales.

Lets hand it back to the people and have a nationwide heavily promoted vote from the people.

And when Mumford and Sons win best traditional track; best contemporary track; best album ;best folk rock group; best band; trio; and solo artist plus best band ever in the whole of the universe then you might just wonder where it all went wrong.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:58 AM

Ah Matt - all depends on whether the recipients are really "exceptional"... and that's a value judgment.

I'm not interested at all in the folk awards, but I am interested in the concept and usefulness/uselessness/point/pointlessness of awards in general.

Oddly enough, and coincidentally, there's an interesting article in today's Guardian G2 supplement today: awards ceremonies

I've been to one or two of these showbizzy bashes over the years, as a spectator, and I've never been impressed by the experience. However, Matt, if they make you happy, who am I to argue with you? :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM

"As far as being a professional, with commitment and "determination and focus and hard work", goes - well, that's true of all jobs and professions. It takes all of those things to be good in anything, but to single out a few for an award seems daft."

So you don't think it should be celebrated when someone does something exceptional? It's not daft to "single out a few" because .. there are generally only a few people doing exceptional things in art! By definition, doing something out of the ordinary means it doesn't happen every day.

I mean, I work hard, sometimes very hard, but I've never recorded an album, let alone a very good folk album that a lot of people seem to like. I don't expect to get an award.

Also, I don't think it's useful to mix up art/entertainment (for which awards that recognise artistic excellence are entirely appropriate) and the travails of a hard working life (for which an "award" should be a decent pension). Really, in a just society,your mate shoudln't have had to go through all that in the first place. Awards don't come into it

But you seem to be taking the Folk Awards a lot more seriously than anyone receving them does. There's no money attached to them. They don't set anyone up for life.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:14 AM

Video highlights of the show can be found here (probably not available to those of you outside the UK)

Best of the Folk Awards 2014

The radio show can be found here (should be available to those of you outside the UK)

Radio 2's Folk Awards 2014

Plus you can always check Youtube as a number of the performances are on there as well

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 10:18 AM

Well you could say the same thing about getting played on the radio, or scoring a place on the Cambridge Folk Festival bill, or being on Jools Holland or even simply having an album out.

No - I don't agree with those analogies. Sorry - we'll have to beg to differ on that.

As far as being a professional, with commitment and "determination and focus and hard work", goes - well, that's true of all jobs and professions. It takes all of those things to be good in anything, but to single out a few for an award seems daft.

I've spent a large part of my adult life playing music - much of it for real money - and for most of those nearly 50 playing years (apart from the odd shite gig here and there), I've thought to myself: "Here I am, doing what I love, to people who mostly like what I do - for money, even - how much better can it possibly get?" Compared to many other jobs I've done, it's great.

Coincidentally, I received an email from a guy I hadn't met for quite some time - he's spent the last three years in his boat, sailing round the world. Here's an extract from what he wrote to me:

During my working life I managed to get blown up in an IRA bomb, was shot at, stabbed and went to the Old Bailey as a defendant. I also spent most of my career investigating rapes and sexual abuse against children. By the time it came to retire I was totally wasted mentally and physically. I had done 30 years and spent a long time away from [wife's name] and our two boys.

Where was his award?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,MATT Milton
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:57 AM

"By chance and fortune, but not necessarily by merit that is so much greater than that of many other, unknown people."

Well you could say the same thing about getting played on the radio, or scoring a place on the Cambridge Folk Festival bill, or being on Jools Holland or even simply having an album out. There'll always be better, more talented, worthier people who aren't on the radio, who aren't playing big festivals, who don't have an album out. That's not a reason for boycotting those events, or foregoing those activities.

Yes, there will always be people who are unsung talents that turn up and do something spellbindingly good at their local folk club to an appreciative small crowd. But it's not "chance and fortune" that separates them from famous names: it's determination and focus and hard work and, above all, the self-conscious decision to be a professional musician, to actually do that with your working life. I have a lot of respect for people that make that commitment, even if I generally don't like their music much. I think it's slightly self-indulgent and too easy to think to oneself that it's a few lucky breaks separating a talented amateur musician and a famous professional one. (I've been guilty of that false consolatory sop myself on occasion!)

Personally, I doubt many of the folk awards recipients genuinely think their award is an Official Seal That They Are Definitely Better Than Everyone Else. They are just grateful that more people are getting to hear their music. Oh, and that their mum can maybe catch a glimpse of them on TV.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:54 AM

What was that Young Folk Award nominee bluegrass band ' Gentlemen Of Few ' thing all about ? a bluegrass band based on a keyboard and a drum kit ? I don't think so.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:42 AM

Red button was broadcasting the full show on a loop until about 6.00 am this morning.
Next time it will be shown on Red button won't be until some time around Tuesday,
but only edited highlights.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:39 AM

What is the 'red button' ?
The local Radio media seems to be saturated with last night's BRIT Awards !! :-(

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Isn't it still on the red button? I seem to remember that you could get it for days afterwards last year.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Tim Hague
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Hear Hear Silas.

I really enjoyed it, but knowing Mudcat I'm not surprised at some of the comments on here.
The joy on the youngsters faces made it all worth while. There are some stars of the future there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

But why cant they put it on tv?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:13 AM

Enjoyed it enormously. Nice to see so much young talent about too. Some well deserved awards. Wish I could have recorded it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:08 AM

Quite, Peter!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:06 AM

Did nothing for me but if it prompts one person to go to a folk club for the first time then its all worth it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:03 AM

For me the whole point of Folk based music is that its is reactionary, challenges authority, exists outside music industry hype. Giving awards cuts across all of that and makes it establishment friendly. Catch 22 if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 09:02 AM

the young woman singing at the piano (I can't remember her name, but I will)...

...was Hattie Briggs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:56 AM

or even "Wasting Everyone's Time with Folk Acoustic and Roots Traditions?"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:54 AM

If they labelled it ROOts-BAsed RhythmnBlues they'd have a great acronym.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:49 AM

or.. perhaps...

"Folk, Acoustic and Roots Traditions"...????

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:31 AM

I think it's getting perilously close to us needing another short snappy word to describe the traditional stuff. There was a sizable percentage that didn't come anywhere near even the widest meaning of 'folk' though to be fair they keep tagging on words like 'roots' and 'acoustic'. Perhaps it would be more accurate if they just called it 'music'.

I think they're moving towards calling it FARB music: during the programme I heard at least once the phrase, "Folk, Acoustic and Roots-Based music"

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:27 AM

Someone on the trailer in the weeks leading up to it made a good point. Female voice, don't know who sorry, saying that as folk performers they performed in pubs and clubs all over the country and this was their 'special' night out. I appreciate all the other points being made but for the hundreds of people there it was indeed a special night. I would not begrudge them that and, even if I did, I would just not watch or listen.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 08:25 AM

Can you honestly say that if you, as a performing musician, were nominated for an award, you wouldn't go along? For the free booze, if nothing else?

I suppose it's a bit too easy and glib to say "No" to that question but, as far as I can tell, "No".

I feel the same way about the honours system - and always have done - because the principle objection is the same in both cases: there are hundreds of people out there who do good works for good causes, and a chosen handful get nominated for an MBE or an award or whatever. Why? By chance and fortune, but not necessarily by merit that is so much greater than that of many other, unknown people.

And don't get me started on civil servants who automatically get a:

1. CMG - Call Me God
2. KCMG - Kindly Call Me God
3. GCMG - God Calls Me God

Bah! Humbug!