What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 04:53 AM

I got as far as your 'giving a correct definition" before smiling.

You really think the term "folk" is anything other than what it is? Where music is concerned, it is a wide musical genre.

If you support Jim and his "oral tradition" nonsense, more fool you. Most "traditional" songs "in the oral tradition" have been copyrighted broadsheet ballads before ever tit trousers tried claiming them as from his or her mother's knee.

I mentioned Famous Flower of Serving Men as an example I happen to know the details of. it was written by Laurence Price and published under copyright in June 1656. If I could be arsed, I could find plenty more.

No problem, it remains a folk song. It's just that Jim's silly definition that you are supporting for some illogical reason falls at such hurdles.

If you recall, the question was "What makes a new song a folk song?" You and Jim think a new song can't be a folk song, whereas all songs were new once. Many of them copyrighted too. Indeed, just about all the ones any of us know have been published...

Don't worry though Michael. I only call folk music folk...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:09 AM

"don't let any bugger tell you their vision of folk music is better than yours"

But Al, that is exactly what you seem to be trying to do with your own claims, and your denigration of traditional music.

Like MGM I don't see any musical connection between what you do and the traditional music which is at the core of 'folk'. Nevertheless I acknowledge that it falls within the wider understanding of 'folk'. What I object to is your (and others') continual assertion that yours is the True Way and that traditional music is an irrelevant anachronism. That it may be for you, and perhaps your audiences, doesn't make it true.

As I've pointed out before, 'folk' is a broad genre which now covers not only its original meaning of traditional music but also a lot more, some of which resembles traditional folk, some of which doesn't but somehow manages to sit alongside it, and some which is put in the 'folk' category because it can't really be put into any other genre and 'folk' is the closest fit. Some would say it's too broad and vague to be useful, but I would say no more than any other genre - they all cover a very wide variety of music, often with only a tenuous connection, which do no more than point you to the right section of the record shop. Terms like 'classical' or 'jazz' without any further qualification give you no more information about what you might expect to hear than does 'folk'.

I think this discussion has become the negative side of the "what I like is folk" claim - the fallacy that says "I like folk, I don't like that, so it can't be folk". Jim worries that folk clubs are being taken over by pop songs and that traditional music is no longer welcome in folk clubs. I think he is wrong, and that this is based on what he admits is a limited sampling - I think he has just been unlucky in the clubs he has visited. Al seems to think that his way is the future of folk - I think he is wrong too, but that's not to say that he doesn't have a place in it.

I think the other thing to bear in mind is that music isn't just music - we all bring other elements to it which reinforce our own identity and prejudices. This is as true of folkies as it is of mods, punks, goths, emos, Last Night of the Prommers and all the other groups which identify themselves more or less closely with a particular style of music. This makes it very difficult to discuss objectively, as this discussion has demonstrated.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:18 AM

BH: There are those like you that want the tradition to be a museum piece, and there are those like me and many others who want the tradition to be a living, breathing and developing thing, which after all is the true nature of a 'tradition'

No. What Don, Jim, Michael and I (among others) are saying is the same thing that the folk song collectors said*. The tradition that gave rise to traditional songs - widely adopted, sung by ordinary people at work or round the fire - is, to all intents and purposes, dead. Changes in society killed it off, just as they killed the trade of the wheelwright and the street porter.

There is a stock of traditional songs and it's not being added to, apart from odd discoveries in archives. That's the bad news. The good news is that it's an enormous stock - enough to keep anyone going for a lifetime - and a lot of them are brilliant songs. And they're good enough to take whatever you throw at them as a singer or arranger. (As Martin Carthy said, the worst thing you can do to these songs is not sing them.)

Or you can sing new songs - it's entirely up to you. But wanting the tradition to come back to life won't make it happen - and saying that you're adding to the tradition won't make it true.

*A bit of double-counting there, as Jim actually is a folk song collector

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM

"have been copyrighted broadsheet ballads before ever tit trousers tried claiming them as from his or her mother's knee."
Broadside ballads were never copyrighted and there is no evidence whatever to show that "most traditional songs" originated them, though there is plenty of evidence to suggest that people have always made their own songs, despite claims otherwise.
More 'making it up as you go along', it would seem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

I think the other thing to bear in mind is that music isn't just music - we all bring other elements to it which reinforce our own identity and prejudices.

This is what I was getting at with my question upthread about folk being 'the music of the people'. I think some people start from the proposition that folk is the people's music & then redefine 'folk' to fit. I just think they're great songs, and I've enjoyed some traditional song sessions as much as any other musical experience I've ever had.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:32 AM

" there is no evidence whatever to show that "most traditional songs" originated them,"
Poppycock and pedantry, a lot of traditional songs originated from broadsheet ballads.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:33 AM

Just to point out, Ian, that I am well over 80 and Jim isn't; and that I have been making the same points I am making here since I started writing about folk music in the public prints in an edition of the TES in October 1969 -- exactly 45 years ago: so that if anyone is 'supporting' anyone here, then Jim is supporting me, rather than I him.

A taxonomic and semantic distinction, of the sort you appear to have so much difficulty in grasping.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 06:00 AM

Many broadside ballads were copyrighted, you old fool. That was how sellers made money out of the huge cost of printing them and selling them.

Variations that some collectors got a stiffy out of what they put down to regional variations within the oral tradition were often no more and no less than attempts to get around copyright. Little Musgrave and Matty Groves were both copyrighted broadsheets, one getting around the copyright of the other... The many variations come from the two distinct published ones etc.

By Jim's reckoning, they are not folk songs then. When I decided I liked so learned Richard Thompson's Valerie, I misheard a line, and instead of singing 'she has gold in her ear" I sang "she's got Gonorrhoea..." Does that make my earlier mistake "in the oral tradition"???

Michael. I am aware of your age, I wouldn't take the piss out of nurse and medication otherwise. If you insist on taking the credit for claiming part of a genre as being the only bit deserving of the group term, carry on. I feel less guilty that way.

I love how some say that those who don't get hung up over the actual definition of folk are somehow goose steppers, (Jim's lovely description of me,) haters of music and other such nonsense.

The question was related to how you claim a new song as folk. Well, if it ain't opera, acid rock, punk, rap etc, what is it? Well, which audience did you have in mind when you wrote it? Oh, a folk audience?

It's a folk song then.

Ask writers of contemporary folk.

zzzzz

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 06:09 AM

"all songs were new once"

But they weren't folk songs when they were new, they were just new songs. It takes time and process to turn a new song into a folk song. That needn't take very long, if the song touches a nerve with enough people and there's a mechanism for it to be taken up and shared. On the other hand, some very old and very well-known songs aren't 'folk'.

What makes it difficult now for a new song to become a folk song is twofold. Firstly, there isn't the same environment of people singing songs to entertain themselves and others - that's been taken over by readily available and portable professional entertainment. Secondly, where songs do enter the popular imagination there is nearly always a definitive 'correct' version to refer back to, so the variation which is an essential element of folk song is much less likely to occur. It's not impossible though.

A new song is just a new song. It may be 'folk', or it may be something else, and that may depend as much on the background and performance choices of its composer as it is to depend on anything inherent in its structure. it might be both, if it can be performed as well in one genre as another.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 06:17 AM

I just wanted to come back on the opposition suggested by Spleen between submitting to the raw experience and caring about the labels. I think it's a false opposition - it's the raw experience that made me care about the labels.

Yes... but for every Lord Franklin, there's a bunch of trite ditties about life on the farm (for example), with little value except in their antiquity - "Out with My Gun in the Morning", anyone? It makes the average chart pop song look profound. And for every ballad with a powerful tune, there are others with slight, unmemorable tunes that exist merely as a vehicle for the narrative - in many cases vehicles that have should have failed their MOTs years ago, and would have done had they not been preserved by collectors. That's where categories and labels, rather than a subjective approach, are problematic. The whole but is it traditional, though? approach can end up a triumph of provenance over quality. And opinions about quality, like mine above, are subjective. So my problem with "anything goes" folk clubs is not about whether the offerings are traditional or not, but whether they are performed well and float one of my musical boats. What it says on the tin can't begin to help me with this... Having said that, I don't want Cliff Richard songs any more than Jim does! But that's my problem (and a reflection of my personal taste) and no-one else's. In the meantime, I'm happy that folk, for want of a better word, can incorporate what Jim wants and what Al wants, even if I don't necessarily share their deepest desires.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 06:40 AM

my problem with "anything goes" folk clubs is not about whether the offerings are traditional or not, but whether they are performed well and float one of my musical boats. What it says on the tin can't begin to help me with this...

That's my point, though - in my experience the standard of performance is usually much higher at a trad singaround than at an anything-goes night. I don't think this is a coincidence. If you can go along and do anything, people go along and do anything - songs nobody's ever heard, a different song every week, why not? Having a fixed (albeit very large) repertoire creates peer pressure which drives up quality - if Jane's nailed you to the wall with her Blackwaterside, you're not going to try out your version in front of her unless/until you're pretty sure you can hack it.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 06:46 AM

"People have always made their own songs"

Exactly, Jim. And continue to do so, largely well away from the confines and strictures of the folk world. Because, let's face it, when these songs were written, none of them were folks songs - that was a status given to them later, by someone else. Once upon a time, they were just songs. As far as I'm concerned, they still are: what else could they be? It's great that people have taken the time and trouble to save them from obscurity (though we can only guess at what arbitrary selction processes were at play to give us the actual body of work we've ended up with). But it's also great that I can buy densely annotated compilations of obscure small town garage rock bands from the mid-sixties USA. Both spring from the same impulse.

"When I look at the piece of stale cheese which is all I've got, I'm looking at a nice plateful of tripes à la mode de Caen or roast turkey. But that won't make 'em so."

Nice analogy Michael. And it neatly supports my contention that behind categorisation as an objective excercise, is an agenda about quality and worth - otherwise your stale bread would become, I dunno, a wizened apple. Which takes us back to how this all comes served up with a whacking great dollop of subjectivity.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:27 AM

but for every Lord Franklin, there's a bunch of trite ditties about life on the farm (for example), with little value except in their antiquity - "Out with My Gun in the Morning", anyone?

Profundity lies not in the intention, rather the experience, which is the essence of vernacular song. In this respect I'd say OWMGITM is a good deal more profound than Lord Franklin, in the same way the simplest of finely honed pop numbers might easily outweigh the most bombastic prog anthem in terms of relevance to common-or-garden human experience and longing, despite, or even because of, the irony. In the case of OWMGITM it lies in the fact of such a pastoral idyll being printed up in the mean dark streets of Manchester's Oldham Road, the buildings of which still stand in stark testimony to the trade & history. As an idyll it's a heartfelt cry of the disposed proletariat uprooted from their heartland and crammed all anyhow into the city. Escapism in its purest, profoundest sense, as a lot of pop music is; purely & simply, and free from all pretension, presumption or proscription, be it political, poetic, or whatever...   

Question is though - Is it a Folk Song? For sure there is a very splendid broadside (See Here For So-Clear-You-Can-Almost-Smell-It Scan) and a nice old recording of Jimmy Knights singing it word-for-word with touching sincerity, having got the song from someone who (horror of horrors!) wrote it down for him. Are there any other sources and variants, I wonder? I've never seen any. Idiomatically it's a different matter, of course, it's a Folk as the nose on your face, but in terms of the prevailing usage in the classic sense on this thread (mostly MtheGM & Colonel Cairoli) I guess it ain't.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 08:21 AM

no Howard - you misunderstand my point of view. the future for any music - classical, jazz, or whatever is creativity.

i appreciate that people like |John Kelly, Brian Peters, Martin Carthy find the old songs an endless source of creativity - great works of art which they can return to in the same way that different orchestras and conductors can return to Beethoven.

my own feeling is that - if thats what it calls up from you -fair enough. but did classical composers say - oh well that was that - no need to write any more symphonies - Beethoven did that. that's classical music finished.

did jazz musicians say - well we've had Louis Armstrong - Charlie Parker belt up! call that rubbish jazz!
if we had an election - Jim and his pals would have lost his deposit. people have chosen to regard folk music as something different from what he thinks. and Mike. Can't help that - if i called my music something else other than folk music. no one would understand - as it is - they do. regrettable perhaps - but i didn't make the rules, any more than Jim did. i accept the situation - he doesn't. why he finds my music so much less worthy , i don't know. it has absorbed all the ability i have had, and generally people find it entertaining.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 08:38 AM

Carthy turns many songs into listenable songs. It is his creativeness that makes him popular with such a wide audience. If it weren't lyrics that are classed as traditional, it would be other lyrics and you would still have this amazing guitarist with a blunt vocal delivery that has a beauty of its own. His rendition of Slade's Cum on Feel the Noize being a point in case.

When people see me lock and load one of my acoustic guitars, they expect folk because I am possibly at a folk club. If I lock and load my Gretsch, I am possibly on stage with others and they are expecting some rock music. I don't disappoint on the definition, the quality is a different matter entirely...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 09:01 AM

"a lot of traditional songs originated from broadsheet ballads."
As you say, poppycock and pedantry - we have no idea where the vast majority of folk songs originated, we know a few possibly did and we know that many of them appeared on broadsides, but whether they were the compositions of the of notoriously bad broadside hacks or they were taken down from soldiers, sailors and land workers by the hacks is and will probably remain a complete mystery.
The vast majority of the broadside output was in fact fairly unsingable and unmemorable.
We recorded a singer from Kerry who would go into the printer in Killarny or wherever and recite his fathers songs over the counter in order to have them turned into ballad sheets to sell at the fairs, but as far as I have been able to discover, that is the nearest thing we have to how the ballad sheets were made.
At no time did he remember a song being written to be sold in this way.
If you have any information to the contrary, I'd be fascinated to hear it.   
"a bunch of trite ditties"
You've been given 'Farmer Michael Hayes' you fill find another half dozen on 'Around the Hills of Clare' and there are another forty or fifty on the way in our West Clare collection - all arising from various events in Irish history.
In England, Travellers, Mill workers, miners were all making songs, the Scots bothies produced a rich repertoire of important songs.
Nobody knows who produced tha main body of our traditional repertoire, which in itself suggests that they were made by 'the common people' too 'unimportant' to be remembered as composers.
"Many broadside ballads were copyrighted, you old fool"
No they weren't to eejit - any money that was made out of them came from a simple swap - cash for song sheet.
It doesn't matter anyway, as I said, there is no evidence where traditional songs originated - none whatever.
" he doesn't. why he finds my music so much less worthy"
Why do you insist on continuing this after I have said over and over again - it is not a question of 'worthiness' - you are the only one putting 'value' on this argument - nobody else?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 09:57 AM

"What makes a new song a folk song?

more than anything else, I'd say it's the threat of excessively punative litigation
from the mercenary thug bounty hunter lawyers representing the 21st Cent corporate music business,
that deters a mass of folks like me from adapting current chart pop songs
and disseminating our amateurish modified versions
at the modern day 'folk clubs' of Youtube and soundcloud and suchlike...

That's what I believe stifles the living folk process
and will prevent new songs from becoming folk songs.... !!!???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 10:52 AM

"That's what I believe stifles the living folk process and will prevent new songs from becoming folk songs."
Wish I'd said that - or maybe I did.

Some anonymous songs recorded in West Clare

The Bad Year, John Lyons, Newmarket-on-Fergus
Recorded 1978
Carroll Mackenzie Collection

As I stand on the land and I look at the sky,
And I watched the rain pour, I could lie down and die.
The meadow's a pool and the turf's gone to suds,
Sure I hadn't the heart to go digging the spuds.

The hens got the gapes they gave up laying eggs,
When the pig tried to grunt he got weak in the legs.
The back yard is a pool and the garden's a bog,
O the poor farmer's life isn't fit for a dog.

Well I got wrinkled and old and my hair it turned grey,
While the torrents of rain made manure of my hay.
The cows they went dry 'twould bring blood from a stone,
To watch the poor creatures go all skin and bone.

The child got the measles, me wife got upset,
Meself got the flu from me clothes getting wet.
Coughs and colds I contacted a crop of chill blains,
While me joints they swelled up with most terrible pains.

Ah but that's over now for this year is a gift,
I'm a rich man at last by good farming and thrift.
It can rain, it can snow, it can blow a monsoon,
For I'm all for the caper above in Lisdoon.

This is included in the published collection 'Ballads of the County Clare, edited by Seán Ó Cillin, privately published in 1976 and now, sadly, unavailable, it is credited as anonymous and the tune given is Mountains of Mourne, though this is not the tune John uses here.

Clare to the Front
Michael 'Straighty' Flanagan, Inagh
Carroll Mackenzie Collection

Clare to the front, I will sound your name.
Your well known, you're famous no doubt you are game.
Our sons and fair daughters, they were sent to jail,
For loving old Ireland and poor Granuaile.

Then, hurray for the men who when prison are bound,
Their names we won't mention their true hearts are sound.
For the boys of Miltown they are suffering to save
The children of Clare and the home for the brave.

There is Quin, Newmarket and Clare to a man,
And the loyal men of Ennis stood two hundred strong.
Ashford (?), asthore, 'tis there you'd see play,
For no man from Ennis did dare run away.
        
Then hurray for the men who when prison are bound,
Their names we won't mention their true hearts are sound.
For the boys of Miltown they are suffering to save,
The children of Clare and the home for the brave.

There is now Killadysart and Pound Street you see,
And throughout County Clare they long to be free.
The men of Bodyke are daring you know,
We will sound their praises wherever we go.

There is Scariff, Tuamgraney and the boys of Bodyke,
Kilkishen and Broadford they would you delight.
O'Callaghan's Mills and Tulla , you see,
And the loyal men of Feakle loves Erin machree.

Corofin, Ennistymon, Kilfenora you see,
And around Lisdoonvarna they long to be free.
There are too many heroes locked up in a cell,
For loving old Ireland and loving her well.

Miltown you're my darling I will sound your name
For miles and miles 'round you for freedom you gain.
The grand men of Mullagh will stand one and all               
And the boys of Kilkee, they will come to our call.

There is Quilty, Kilmurry and sweet Cooraclare,
And the boys of Kilrush very loudly will cheer.
Their hearts they are faithful and loyal you see,
For they long to see Home Rule in our country.

Hurray for the men who when prison are bound,
Their names we won't mention, their true hearts are sound.
For the boys of Miltown they are suffering to save,
The children of Clare and the home for the brave.

Then hurray for our mountains so towering and high,
Where fond hearts do beat and fond bosoms do lie.
Who were the men who came first in the fray,
To drive the landlords and the bailiffs away?

"Hardly surprising, this celebration of Clare's revolutionary spirit seems not to have been found anywhere else, probably indicating that it was a local composition – it speaks for itself without having to add anything other than – up Clare!!"

Dudley Lee the Blackleg*
Martin Howley, Fanore, northwest Clare, Recorded 1976
Carroll Mackenzie Collection

There's a spot in old Ireland by the name of Murrough,
Where the people lived happy with hearts loyal and true.
'Til a breeze from the ocean drew ? o'er the sea
'Til a blackleg appeared there named one Dudley Lee.

Now gentler readers, to explain the whole case:
A teacher came amongst us named Michael O'Shea.
His conduct was tested and his teaching supreme.
The people all liked him now it's plain to be seen.

Deprived of his rights by a manager's cruel laws,
To prove to the board, for an enquiry they called.
The charges against him were unfounded and low,
And O'Shea was evicted from his school in Fanore.

To replace this poor victim with a wife from the place,
A blackleg was appointed instead of O'Shea.
But before he got time for to call his first roll,
Seven stalwart young fellows threw him out on the road.

The police, they were present, took the names of those few,
And ransacked their law-heads to an act that would sue.
The fight was selected as we all know too well
And each was confined to a dark prison cell.

Now the teachers of Ireland now demand the truth,
And they laid down the laws that were made in Maynooth.
But the treaty was broken, O'Shea was disowned,
But now they are building a school of his own.

When the new school is finished we all shall agree,
We'll give a send-off to poor Dudley Lee.
He may grunt, he may grumble throwing weights with a stone
Or curse the first day that he left his foot in Fanore.

*This song is about the Fanore School Case (1914-1922) during which the principal of Fanore National School, Michael O'Shea was dismissed from his post by the school manager Fr Patrick Keran, allegedly for refusing to marry the assistant teacher in the school as he was engaged to another woman. O'Shea's post was eventually filled by Gerard Lee.
Not surprisingly, the song lays the bulk of the blame at the door of the replacement teacher rather than the priest who issued the order.

The Sons of Granuaile
Michael 'Straighty' Flanagan
Inagh

You loyal-hearted Irishmen that do intend to roam,
To reap the English harvest so far away from home
I'm sure you will provide with us both comrades loyal and true
Or you have to fight both day and night with John Bull and his crew.

When we left our homes from Ireland the weather was calm and clear,
And when we got on board the ship we gave a hearty cheer.
We gave three loud cheers for Paddy's land, the place we do adore,
May the heavens smile on every child that loves the shamrock shore.

We sailed away all from the quay and ne'er received a shock
Till we landed safe in Liverpool one side of Clare and stock
Where hundreds of our Irishmen they met us in the town
Then 'Hurrah for Paddy's lovely land', it was the word went round.

With one consent away we went to drink strong ale and wine,
Each man he drank a favourite toast to the friends he left behind.
We sang and drank till the ale house rang dispraising Erin's foes,
Or any man that hates the land where St Patrick's shamrock grows.

For three long days we marched away, high wages for to find.
Till on the following morning we came to a railway line.
Those navies they came up to us, and loudly they did rail,
They cursed and damned for Paddy's lands and the sons of Granuaile.

Up stands one of our Irish boys and says, 'What do you mean?
While us, we'll work as well as you, and hate a coward's name.
So leave our way without delay or some of you will fall,
Here stands the sons of Irishmen that never feared a ball.'

Those navies then, they cursed and swore they'd kill us every man.
Make us remember ninety-eight, Ballinamuck and Slievenamon.
Blessed Father Murphy they cursed his blessed revenge,
And our Irish heroes said they'd have revenge then for the same.

Up stands Barney Reilly and he knocked the ganger down.
'Twas then the sticks and stones they came, like showers to the ground.
We fought from half past four until the sun was going to set,
When O'Reilly said, 'My Irish boys, I think we will be bet.'

But come with me my comrade boys, we'll renew the fight once more.
We'll set our foes on every side more desperate than before.
We will let them know before we go we'd rather fight than fly,
For at the worst of times you'll know what can we do, but die.

Here's a health then to the McCormicks too, O'Donnell and O'Neill
And also the O'Donoghues that never were afraid
Also every Irish man who fought and gained the day
And may those cowardly English men in crowds they ran away.

Irish immigrants fleeing the Famine and the mass evictions were met with prejudice and violence in many of the places they chose as their new homes.
This account, from Terry Coleman's 'Railway Navvies', gives a vivid description of the reception many of them received when they landed in Britain.
It describes the plight of the men who took work as railway navvies in the English/Scots border country.

"Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. The Irish did not look for a fight. As the Scottish Herald reported, they camped, with their women and children, in some of the most secluded glades, and although most of the huts showed an amazing disregard of comfort, the hereditary glee of their occupants seemed not a whit impaired'. This glee enraged the Scots, who then added to their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages) their sanctified outrage that the Irish should regard the Sabbath as a holiday, a day of recreation on which they sang and lazed about. As for the Scots, all they did on a Sunday was drink often and pray occasionally, and it needed only an odd quart of whisky and a small prayer to make them half daft with Presbyterian fervour. They then beat up the godless Irish. The Irish defended themselves and this further annoyed the Scots, so that by the middle of 1845 there was near civil war among the railway labourers. The English, mainly from Yorkshire and Lancashire, would fight anyone, but they preferred to attack the Irish. The contractors tried to keep the men, particularly the Irish and Scots, apart, employing them on different parts of the line, but the Scots were not so easily turned from their religious purposes. At Kinghorn, near Dunfermline, these posters were put up around the town:

'NOTICE IS GIVEN
that all the Irish men on the line of railway in Fife Share must be off the grownd and owt of the countey on Monday th nth of this month or els we must by the strenth of our armes and a good pick shaft put them off
Your humbel servants, Schots men.'

Letters were also sent to the contractors and sub-con¬tractors. One read:

'Sir, - You must warn all your Irish men to be of the grownd on Monday the 11th of this month at 12 o'cloack or els we must put them by forse
FOR WE ARE DETERMINED TO DOW IT.'

The sheriff turned up and warned the Scots against doing anything of the sort. Two hundred navvies met on the beach, but in the face of a warning from the sheriff they proved not so determined to do it, and the Irish were left in peace for a while.
But in other places the riots were savage. Seven thousand men were working on the Caledonian line, and 1,100 of these were paid monthly at a village called Locherby, in Dum¬friesshire. Their conduct was a great scandal to the inhabitants of a quiet Scottish village. John Baird, Deputy Clerk of the Peace for the county, lamented that the local little boys got completely into the habits of the men - 'drinking, swearing, fighting, and smoking tobacco and all those sorts of things'. Mr Baird thought that on a pay day, with constant drunken¬ness and disturbance, the village was quite uninhabitable.
A minority of the navvies were Irish, and they were attacked now and again, as was the custom. After one pay day a mob of 300 or 400, armed with pitchforks and scythes, marched on the Irish, who were saved only because the magistrates intervened and kept both sides talking until a force of militia came up from Carlisle, twenty-three miles away."

The writer goes in to explain that the worst of the riots were to follow.
This song describes the situation in Britain, specifically in Liverpool; we have never come across it before and can find no trace of it.
A similar song 'Seven of our Irishmen' (Roud 3104), sung by Straighty and by Pat MacNamara, deals with those who landed in America and were targeted as possible recruits for the U.S. army.
Ref:
The Railway Navvies;   Terry Coleman 1965

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 11:03 AM

not really pfr. folksingers, football crowds, and the like don't give a stuff about copywright. like i say oasis stopped the smurfs doing wonderwall. but that was a music industry scrap. most of us operate most of the time outside the industry.

i'm a member of the union incase my noseflute blows and kills a spectator - otherwise i don't think anyone has ever heard of me.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 11:05 AM

For clarification - are these recent songs that have been taken up and sung by ordinary people, Jim?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 11:08 AM

Just noticed this
"goose steppers, (Jim's lovely description of me")
I was referring to your ageist and racist behaviour in referring to old singers and Travellers ("diidicoys")
You are deliberately distorting the point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 11:16 AM

Yes.. you're absolutely right there Al...

I've lost sight of the transgressive underground nature
of localised sports and recreational communities
informally fucking around with popular songs and advertising jingles...

I'm only focusing on a limited notion of home project studio recordings and internet distribution,
because I've basically become a reclusive hermit...

I pretty much stopped going out to public social gatherings
since my favourourite rough cider and live music pub burnt down a couple of years ago...

I'm still in mourning.....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 12:28 PM

Progressive folk

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 12:44 PM

"For clarification - are these recent songs that have been taken up and sung by ordinary people, Jim?"
All sung by elderly Clare farmers - plenty more where they came from
I would guess that every rural parish and city in Ireland have produced similar songs over the last century.
Jim Carroll

I Don't Mind If I Do,
Michael 'Straighty' Flanagan, Inagh
Carroll Mackenzie Collection

King George met Joe Devlin a short time ago,
And he said 'Good morning, how do you do, Joe?
Will you drop into breakfast, and see Mary, too?'
'Oh, be God then', said Joe, 'I don't mind if I do.'

To the palace they rambled – T.P. he was there,
John Dillon he sat on a plush-covered chair,
'Will you all', says Queen Mary , 'have some Irish stew?'
Oh they roared in one voice, 'We don't mind if we do.'

'Sinn Feiners', said Georgie, 'are spoiling my plan.
DeValera, their leader, he seems a strong man.
Will you tell him his flag should be red, white and blue?'
'It's no use', says T.P., 'he won't mind if I do.'

'Behind prison walls they should all be', said Joe.
'When you had them in there sure you let them all go.
To spread their sedition each county around,
And to knock out the men with the four hundred pounds.'

'That's right', said T.P., 'I agree with you there.
The rod on the rebels, oh Georgie, don't spare!
The whole world over sure they've knocked me flat,
I am back from the States with a big empty hat.'

The flag of Sinn Fein everywhere it do fly,
And 'Down with the Party' is now Ireland's cry.
The green, white and orange, alas and alack,
Has taken the place of the old Union Jack.

'Recruiting', said Mary, 'is now very low.
To the trenches in Flanders the Irish won't go.
Why not try conscription – oh John, what says you?'
'Oh be God then', said Joe, 'there'll be hell if we do.'

"According to historical accounts, the 1910 British General Election left the Liberals as a minority government dependent upon the votes of Irish Nationalist parliamentarians so, in order to gain their support, Prime Minister Herbert Asquith, introduced legislation that would give Ireland Home Rule; the bill was opposed by the Conservatives and Unionists. Desperate to avoid the prospect of Civil War in Ireland, King George V called a meeting of all parties at Buckingham Palace in July 1914 in an attempt to negotiate a settlement. After four days the conference ended without an agreement so, on 18 September 1914, the King, having considered vetoing the legislation, gave his assent to the Home Rule Bill after it had been passed by Westminster. Its implementation was postponed due to the outbreak of the First World War. Joseph Devlin, mentioned in the song, was an Irish journalist and influential nationalist politician, a member of the British parliament for the Irish Parliamentary Party This wonderful parody commemorates 'The Buckingham Palace Meeting'."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 12:49 PM

Hang on. The whole of the history of publishing and copyright is wrong and needs rewriting because Jim once had a chat with a diddycoy.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:09 PM

"The whole of the history of publishing and copyright is wrong and needs rewriting because Jim once had a chat with a diddycoy."
Aw with much of what you have written, don't understand this Muskie
Still not happy about you talking about Diddycoys (Traveller Nig-Nogs) , but breeding will out, as they say
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:38 PM

From the Bodlian broadside site
Jim Carroll
"The cheapness of ballad printing is reflected in the collage-like composition of the broadsides: to make up a full sheet, the printer would choose a text and sometimes an illustration -- though not necessarily an illustration made on purpose for that ballad. If the sheet was to contain more than one ballad, the printer decided which songs to include from the thousands available without copyright. The results will be seen by any user of this database; a single ballad text may appear in many different ballad sheets, juxtaposed with different companion ballads. The same may be said for the woodcut illustrations: a woodcut intended to illustrate one ballad might be used later alongside a different song. These characteristics of broadside ballad publishing have influenced the approach to cataloguing the broadside ballads in this database. The individual ballads and the illustrations are treated as entities within the envelope of the complete broadside sheet. Therefore both broadside sheets and the individual ballads contained in them are searchable."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:38 PM

From the Bodlian broadside site
Jim Carroll
"The cheapness of ballad printing is reflected in the collage-like composition of the broadsides: to make up a full sheet, the printer would choose a text and sometimes an illustration -- though not necessarily an illustration made on purpose for that ballad. If the sheet was to contain more than one ballad, the printer decided which songs to include from the thousands available without copyright. The results will be seen by any user of this database; a single ballad text may appear in many different ballad sheets, juxtaposed with different companion ballads. The same may be said for the woodcut illustrations: a woodcut intended to illustrate one ballad might be used later alongside a different song. These characteristics of broadside ballad publishing have influenced the approach to cataloguing the broadside ballads in this database. The individual ballads and the illustrations are treated as entities within the envelope of the complete broadside sheet. Therefore both broadside sheets and the individual ballads contained in them are searchable."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:47 PM

Traveller nig nogs?

I wouldn't let any of our local diddycoys hear you call them in derogatory terms.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 02:32 PM

Jim, criticises me for self promotion, but appears to be using this thread to publicise Around the Hills of Clare, HILARIOUS

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 03:19 PM

"Jim, criticises me for self promotion, but appears to be using this thread to publicise Around the Hills of Clare"
Do't be stupid Dick - I raised the album to indicate examples of songs composed by farmers were concerned - not to tell everybody what a wonderful performer (or anything) I was - unlike you.
Why not try to balance tour accompaniment on your clips so you don't drown out your singing - you might be able to manage it with a bit of practice.
Mind you, thinking about it....... don't bother, it's probably better that way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 04:40 PM

jim,
all it appears you can do is pontificate about traditional music.
you have been promoting your cd Around the hills of clare, by mentioning it several times on this thread. do you have any clips of your own performances ? of course not because by all accounts you are no longer up to it.
I am not concerned about your opinions, why should I be? you see I sing and play concertina regularly get paid for it and .. have people thank me, and get re booked, only this week someone asked me to play concertina and sing at their wedding and offered me over 500 to do so, so old chap, just stick your head back up your ivory tower.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:24 PM

"Around the hills of clare, "
You stupid little man
Around the Hills of Clare is a collection of very fine field singers we are proud to have been in the position to issue because of the contribution those singers have made to our understanding of traditional song.
It was issued by the Goilín Club, who, hopefully, got back the financial support they were generous put into it
A it has sold exceptionally well, all further proceeds have gone to The Irish Traditional Music Association - so we have not made one penny out of it - it was a labour of love.
Although it continues to sell, it will become obsolete in the next couple of months as our entire collection of Clare songs will be freely accessible on the Clare County Library website so it is in no need of "promotion".
Unlike you, people like Mike Yates, Tom Munnelly, and all the otrher collectors wo have embarked on similar projects down the years do what they/we do out of love for the music
W don't persistently blow our own trumpets, as you do, we do not persistently remid people that we are professionals wwho need to earn a living, as you do.
We want people to know what these sinngers had to offer, simple as that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:44 PM

How sadistic would it be to set the Newcastle Folk Degree students
an analytical essay on this thread ???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 10:39 PM

i've done shitloads of gigs for the travellers/whatever round Muskie's way - wouldn't get the wrong side of them. Jim, if i were you.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:01 AM

Actually, pfr, I should hope that degree students in folklore would be aware of this forum, and would as a matter of course follow threads like this one.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 02:31 AM

They'd weigh you up for starters...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:03 AM

"W don't persistently blow our own trumpets, as you do",
   yes you do you booby, all we hear from you is how important you are because you spoke to walter pardon when he was having a banana for his dinner, all of which appears to be written with the intention of attempting to impress us with your credentials as a collector then we have refernces in your posts to around the hills of clare, and persistent name dropping of collectors such as mike yates, tom munnelly mean while by all accounts your singing is reminiscent of a badly oiled door.
your posts reveal your lack of brains, of which you seem to be proud with your refernces to being a secondary modern pupil, your intrasingient views and persistent insulting of members who disagree with you reveal exacty for what you are a self important silly billy

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:22 AM

If you think attempting to get people to listen to elderly and unknown singer, some of whom have been described as geriatric no-marks and "diddys" is "self-promotion", then that says more about you than it does about me.
None of what we have done o#vber the last thirty years has been about us - it has always been about the people we recorded and worked with.
'Around the Hills of Clare' has been a field recording best-seller - nobody who has bought it knows who we are - thankfully, mor people know know who Tom Lenihan, Martin Reidy, Straighty Flanagan and Nora Cleary were - that was the purpose of the exercise - not self promotion.
In contrast, a few postings up, you have just told us who you are, whet you do and how much you earn - "over 500" wasn't it - now that's what I call; self promotion.
Take your self-promoting, egotistical mediocrity and shove it Dick - it has no place in this discussion.
This is over and so is this vendetta -now I really do know how Jill Dando must have felt.
You really are a sicko with your stalking and your threats of physical violence.
Do it once more and I shall ask to have you removed - cyber stalking and open threats of violence have no part in open debate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:08 AM

"How sadistic would it be to set the Newcastle Folk Degree students"
At least one tutor connected with the Newcastle Course was deeply involved in the early days of the revival, as a singer, songwriter, instrumentalist and as a researcher and teacher of traditional song techniques.
Her daughter is also a very fine, well known singer.
I would imagine that any students that came under her influence are more than aware of the difference between folk song and what is passed off as folk song.
The fact that some people regard folk music as worth of University Courses is indication enough (for me anyway) that it is not a thing of the past and there is more to it.
Ireland has several such courses and has regular schools throughout the country, the most influential one being the week-long Willie Clancy Summer School, which started forty years ago by introducing young performers to learn from the older ones and, more generally important, listening to what they have to say.
Some of those teachers and performers, Seamus Ennis and Micho Russell in particular, are now recognised with singing and music events in their memory - that's the way to continue the tradition as far as I'm concerned - not introducing the music onto the scene that the revival was conceived to get away from in the first place.
"wouldn't get the wrong side of them. Jim, if i were you"
We worked wit Travellers for thirty years Al - long enough to know they are a threat to nobody, and certainly long enough to be aware that they take deep offence at being referred to as "diddys" and mumphers by settled people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:42 AM

jim,
you started the personal attacks as you invariably do, i have not attacked your field recordings or around the hills of clare, i have pointed out your self promotion, your incessant name dropping and your silly billy behaviour. your personal attacks on other peoples music has no place in this discussion so you shove it up your egotistical ivory tower.
this is a personal attack,this is what i am referring to,"Why not try to balance tour accompaniment on your clips so you don't drown out your singing - you might be able to manage it with a bit of practice.
Mind you, thinking about it....... don't bother, it's probably better that way"
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:43 AM

With all modesty, Ian: I do not consider that I should be "found wanting".

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:46 AM

... though I am not so sure that you could be so sanguine with regard to your contributions to the topics these students would have regard to...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:18 AM

Students tend to like folk in my experience, judging by the numbers turning up to festivals to watch folk acts such as Mumford & Son, Eliza Carthy, Billy Bragg, Seth Lakeman, Martin Simpson, Jake Bugg etc etc.

"Found wanting" sounds like a fair description of someone who doesn't recognise 80% of folk music if you ask me, but there you go.

Jim, I never did ask. When you had spent thirty years with travellers, did you count the spoons afterwards? Just asking like...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

I love that phrase "begging the question", actually. I get a lovely mental image of Muskipooze standing at the edge of the street with his hat upturned on the ground before him, saying anxiously to all the passers-by

"Have you got any old questions to spare today, Koind Sorr?"

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:41 AM

"this is a personal attack,"
No - it's an honest view of your singing which I promised I would give if you continued your cyberstalking
Plenty more where that came from, should you7 choose to continue
Now - about your four-square phrasing.....!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 05:51 AM

Don Firth: No, John, I DON'T want the tradition to be a museum piece. Nor is it.

But when someone steps up to the mic and says "This is a folk song I just wrote last week," he's talking nonsense. He's trying to claim a level of prestige for his song that it has not earned.

In all my years of going to gigs, sessions, singarounds and clubs, I've never heard anyone say "here's a folk song I wrote". Almost invariably they'll just identify it as "a song": ie, "here's one of my own" or "I wrote this song last year after my mum died" or whatever. Never once, to my recollection, have I heard anyone say " here's a folk song I wrote" or "this folk song's about the death of my dad" or whatever.

I've heard people say (and said myself) things like "this one's an old folk song" or "this is a traditional song from Sussex" (or Kent, or wherever) but I've never heard anyone "label" their own songs as either "folk" or "a hit" (unless it was) or hang any other label (punk, rock, or whatever) on one of their own compositions.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:02 AM

That's probably true, Ron. But there is no denying that every single radio DJ, on any channel, in the 60s-70s would keep introducing records with "And here's another from the King of Folk, Bob Dylan", & such locutions. That's when it all started. & still round & round goes the bloody great ☸

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:03 AM

Sorry -- 'Rob', of course I meant to type

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 06:09 AM

"I've never heard anyone say "here's a folk song I wrote".
Plenty of examples of it being said here Rob
The thread is dedicted to "the folk song wot I wrote" (apologies to Little Ernie Wise)
Jim Carroll