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why do singers take so long to start?

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Don Firth 21 Aug 15 - 03:44 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Aug 15 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM
Don Firth 20 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 20 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM
The Sandman 20 Aug 15 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 20 Aug 15 - 08:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Aug 15 - 07:07 AM
Deckman 20 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM
MartinRyan 20 Aug 15 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Aug 15 - 04:11 AM
Deckman 19 Aug 15 - 11:00 PM
Don Firth 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 PM
Stanron 19 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM
Don Firth 19 Aug 15 - 09:38 PM
The Sandman 19 Aug 15 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Aug 15 - 04:56 PM
Megan L 19 Aug 15 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 15 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,JHW 19 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM
wysiwyg 18 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Aug 15 - 03:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Aug 15 - 02:07 AM
GUEST,Stim 17 Aug 15 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Desi C 17 Aug 15 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 17 Aug 15 - 10:12 AM
Ged Fox 17 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 17 Aug 15 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 17 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Aug 15 - 04:14 AM
Tattie Bogle 16 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Aug 15 - 02:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 16 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 16 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM
Airymouse 16 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM
Will Fly 16 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:48 AM
Will Fly 16 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Warwick Slade 16 Aug 15 - 07:08 AM
Jack Campin 16 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM
Ged Fox 16 Aug 15 - 06:23 AM
GUEST 16 Aug 15 - 05:16 AM
Ged Fox 16 Aug 15 - 04:59 AM
Don Firth 16 Aug 15 - 01:34 AM
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Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 10:31 PM
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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 03:44 PM

I do, from time to time, introduce a song with "program notes," if I feel that it enhances the audience's enjoyment of the song. But never more than the brief comments you might find on the back of a record jacket.

It's a major boo-boo to fall into the category where it can be said of you that, "I knew he was a folk singer because he spent fifteen minutes introducing a three minute song."

I've heard people do that sort of thing. Bad!

Don Firth

P. S. I heard once heard one guy rattle on for about ten or fifteen minutes and then forget what song he was introducing!!   Not cute! But it was pretty funny. Not the way the singer would have intended it, though….


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 02:46 PM

some times the longwinded introduction is the best bit, and it goes downhill when the music starts.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM

Not only is the looking for their songs in notebooks annoying, but also, some musicians, when introducing an original song, go into long-winded, unnecessary, BORING, explanations of every detail of how, why, and every emotional aspect of writing their piece. Of course, those songs may have personal significance to the singer/songwriter, but the audience, by and large, don't care about all that. Just play the piece, and let the music speak for itself. Save the 'interviews' for interested listeners. Word may/should spread, by itself, IF people like the song!
And a word to the wise: DO NOT place TWO slow blues pieces back to back. You will lose your audiences attention....whether you think so or not!...(Top Professional musicians know this, as well).

Good luck with good licks, and keep playin'!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM

Above, at 14 Aug 15 - 07:45 PM, I described how a group of young singers, many of them teen-agers, learned and sang--on stage--full length operas. Operas which were sometimes three or more hours long.

One thing I didn't mention was that these were in the original languages. Faust was in French and the others mentioned, Rigoletto, I Pagliacci, and Cavalleria Rusticana were in Italian.

Quite a feat.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

Maybe I didn't phrase it so well. I was meaning that anybody can be prepared even if they aren't a really proficient musician or wonderful singer etc. And like you suggest whatever standard you are basic preparation helps you give as good a performance as you can give!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 01:17 PM

"Things like that are just little bits of basic preparation that have little relevance to actual musical/ performance ability."
i think you are incorrect, basic preparation has much to do with performance, that is what Alexander technique is partly about.
professor Alexander was a professional performer, amongst other things.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 08:41 AM

My comments weren't about being perfect. In fact I am far from that myself especially in regard to guitar playing. I do think though that if you are playing to people - who may not be paying but are there to enjoy themselves all the same - then some amount of basic preparation should be done. That is have some idea of what you are going to do (I concede someone may then change their mind) rather than always spend the first few minutes of your turn flapping about deciding what you should do - and if you are playing guitar accompaniment yourself then write down what key you play it in so you don't have to regularly stop after the first verse and start over placing the capo somewhere else. Things like that are just little bits of basic preparation that have little relevance to actual musical/ performance ability.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 07:07 AM

i think its to do with nakedness. why would you want to sing a song in public that you didn't know. in a way it makes no sense.

but people have a need to expose themselves as something more than a societal unit. they need to stand tall ....its harmless. its healthy even..self expression....   a sort of emotional naturism.

it does lead to some strange sights though. one place i used to go occasionally. a bloke used to get up to the mic. hold up a piece of paper and read (not sing) the words of CrystalChandelier - like a shopping list.

i often wonder what he got out of it - what he expected us to get out of it. still, it must have fed a need inside him, and it did no real harm.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM

To have a working repertoire of several thousand songs is not uncommon. The late David Spence, of California in the early 1960's, certainly attained this. Also the late John Dwyer could rattle off songs at a mention that would give pause to any collector. Don Firth is certainly in that same crowd. But by far, the most astounding of all is Paddy Grabber, of N.W. Canada.

Many years ago, the late Walt Robertson and I used to entertain ourselves, ususally when we were driving to new fishing fishing hole, by creating entire (and very silly)conversations using nothing more than phrases from one song or ballad after another.

It's great way to keep your mind and memory alert, and it doesn't hurt anyone. Besides ... it's free! CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:32 AM

I remember meeting the late great Irish singer Frank Harte many years ago, when he was trying to migrate an index of all his songs and some basic data from one computer system to another (I think the source file was on a BBC micro, which will tell you how long ago it was!). He was moving them in batches, for some reason - and was "somewhere in the 3,000's" as we spoke...

Regards


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:11 AM

My songbook is around 700 these days. 25% I know without any back up. 25% I have my safety wheels in place. 50% I will often read when I play them occasionally. I am not afraid to try new stuff and I certainly agree writing them out helps the memory retain better... but not always. As I have got older I like having some safety built in. Falls at my agd can be life changing!

I am not saying never try to learn. I am merely advocating accepting that many folk will never be as good as you but there will always be someone better. I practise every day. I do not rest on my laurals but some days I am lazy. I am not quite as inept as I may have come across but I work hard to improve and that is the most I can do, with or without stabilisers! (Great anology by the way)

mp


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:00 PM

I do believe that Don's repertoire is much greater than seven hundred, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 PM

I have a repertoire of about three-hundred songs. I once asked Richard Dyer-Bennet how many songs he knew and he said about seven-hundred!

Takes a while....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM

Got to agree with Don on this. The only difference between an amateur and a professional is that when a professional makes a mistake 80 to 90 percent of the audience don't notice. When an amateur makes a mistake 70 to 80 per cent of the audience don't notice. When some one stops and says "Oops, I blew it" at least 50 per cent of the audience will notice.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:38 PM

Good comparison, Good Soldier Schweik!

It isn't a matter of not being "open-minded," mauvepink, it's a matter of concern for those who never even attempt to ride their bicycle without the training-wheels and taking the chance of a possible tumble and a skinned knee or two. You are voluntarily limiting yourself to the point where you will never achieve what you could achieve.

To mix metaphors a bit, if you insist on using the crutch all the time, you'll never learn to walk without it.

When I first started singing (back in prehistoric times, it seems—in the early 1950s), not all that many of us had professional aspirations, but when we brought a guitar or banjo—or just ourselves—to a "hoot," none of us brought songbooks or notebooks or crib sheets with us. Unless it happened to be a list of the titles of songs we had learned, and that was generally taped to the side of our instrument. Our repertoire may have been small, but it was carried in our heads.

Everyone had his or her own way of going about it, but the way I learned a song was to listen to the record repeatedly while copying down the words in longhand. By the time I had the words written down, I had heard the song several times, and the tune was pretty solidly in my ear, as were some of the words. Then, over the next couple of days, I would carry the words around with me (usually folded up in a shirt pocket) and try to sing the song through, taking the words out and checking only when I got stuck.

Or if I was learning it out of a song book, I would copy the words in longhand, which helped me memorize them, and although I'm not the greatest sight-reader in the world, I play the tune on the guitar until I had it in my head—then put the two together.   

At night, before going to bed, I would quietly sing the song in my head or quietly to myself, checking the words only when necessary, and often fall asleep that way. That put the old subconscious to work.

Generally, within a couple of days, I had the song memorized. Generally, after a day or two, I would work out a guitar accompaniment and attempt to put the song and the accompaniment together. And I would run the song through my head both with and without accompaniment

Usually, within a week, I had it. And would cinch it down at the following hoot or session. And if I did happen to blow it, strangely enough, the world didn't come to an end.      

AND

Among other things, if you are singing from memory and you do blow it, you can often cover it. Once, on live television (no teleprompter or cue-cards), I did forget the words. It was a version of The Gypsy Davey. About three verses into the song, I blanked out. I suppressed a coronary while I launched into playing the melody on the guitar. I was using a sort of Carter Family strum, and I picked out the melody with my thumb a la Maybelle Carter, and prayed to Orpheus to let me remember the words. By the time I reached the end of the verse played on the guitar, the words had come back to me.   

Afterward, I asked people who had watch the show. Nobody had noticed! They just assumed that I normally put an instrumental interlude there

I once saw Andres Segovia goof in a concert. He got all bollixed up on a Bach transcription. Without missing a beat, he started the passage over again. I spotted it because I knew the piece, but he covered his goof so smoothly that I doubt that more than three or four people in an audience of a couple of thousand even noticed!   

You don't learn how to do this sort of thing unless it happens to you.

And you're not going to learn this sort of thing with your nose in a book!

C'mon! Take the training wheels off your bicycle and give it a shot! You might surprise yourself!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:02 PM

"I understand the need for perfection, especially from people you are paying to perform, but I would expect a modicum of acceptancce and understanding for those lesser mortals, like me, who mess up every now and then and need to read the words"
I am afraid you do not understand,performance is not about perfection, it is about learning how to cope calmly with your mistakes. Everyone can occasionally forget the words including Elvis Presley, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL OF PERFORMING.
How you deal with it, is part of performance, if you mess up now and again, you do not need to read the words, what you do is ad lib, or go to the next verse or sing a chorus.
what you suggest, is akin to riding a bicycle and when you fall off you go back to riding with stabilisers, well that way you never learn to ride a bike without stabilisers, you carry on like that you will never get the confidence to sing without words.
it is possible to sing well with words,but few people do, if people practised their songs with words they might be better at performing, they MIGHT look at the audience, TRAINED ACTORS can perform well with a word sheet, why, because they feckin well practice, they make contact with the audience, but far too often it is an excuse for amatuerism, unpreparedness, and fumbling paper shuffling, and poor performance.
liberate yourself throw away words, if you make a mistake learn to deal with it,carry on , or make a joke or sing the chorus or the next verse.
if this is any consolation here is Elvis, this might give you confidence not to worry about mistakeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeTA3549So


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 04:56 PM

and ditto from me too. I try to give respect to all, whatever their standard, and hope for the same.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:31 PM

Well said mauvepink


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:45 PM

My name is mauvepink (on Mudcat, at least) and I am a less than perfect singer with a less than perfect guitar style and less a than perfect memory. I'm a sinner...

I have just read through the thread and have found the occasional welcoming and reassuring comments from those folk who seem to embrace a more open approach to singers who are less than perfect. It would not surprise me at all to find that those free thinkers also remember that they too were once not as good as they may now be and how it was when they started out.

I have frequented a great many folk club these past 8 years and the ones I ended up gravitated toward were/are the ones with an open minded membership who welcome all songs as folk songs and those members who are not quite as good at is as some others are still being welcome. Where crib sheets are not frowned up (the good sign of which is a music stand available at the front) and where you will not get threatened if you dare sing a country song!

These days I go to more open mics than I do folk clubs. Why? Well, I get to sing more songs for one thing but another reason is that, generally, the ones I go to have good folk running them and care about helping each performer sound the best they can. These open mics are full of 'kids', often, who have embraced what seems to be an acoustic revival and want to go out there and jam with their friends. It is a fertile breeding ground for some fantastic nights and a whole mish mash of genre without judgement.

The folk clubs I still attend would welcome them with open arms and see it as meeting half way to see that our musical future and heriatge is in good hands.

One club I go to has a session at the end of night designed especially for newcomers where they are encouraged and given help to be involved with more experienced members. I attend an open mic where the 'owner' also helps out those who may struggle a bit.

I understand the need for perfection, especially from people you are paying to perform, but I would expect a modicum of acceptancce and understanding for those lesser mortals, like me, who mess up every now and then and need to read the words.

I can onlt aspire to be as good as some of the people I have met and meet at such functions. Their open mindedness makes me feel welcome and allows me a chance to become better because they cut me some slack. It's not too bad a philosophy really and their functions are always well attended.

I know where I am welcome. I, like so many, stay away from the places where you run the risk of abuse from those who think themselves perfect. The sad thing is you have to attend a place before you know what kind of place it is and that can then be too late because some can be extremely rude and unkind.

No finger pointing within the thread. Nothing personal is meant. This is merely my experience and opinion. I just think sometimes we forget what it was like when we struggled...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM

The first Festival I went to was at Cleethorpes. Everything was on the Pier and the Singing was continuous in the Bar.
No MC. You had to have your song ready to start words and right key and be straight in quicker than a dog's unmentionable the moment the last song finished OR YOU DIDN'T GET TO SING!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM

I used the angst expressed here to model how to prevent this issue, at a new quarterly song/story circle we instituted Sunday evening. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:14 AM

Al. Ask the staff if they remember the greyhound who called with his slaves a few times last month and demolished a tub of diabetic ice cream each time... By the third time we called after a walk, a waitress said "good afternoon Rio" to him.

Bloody dog would be a bar fly if we let him...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 02:07 AM

leenia - i'm not sure anybody will find their way there. its a lovely place -its where Lawrence of Arabia is buried - but its somewhat off the beaten track.

Stim - i love the idea of a 60 second interval. a red hot poker up the roozle for anyone holding things up.

Ringbinder Blues
Got those Ringbinder blues down by Weymouth Bay
Folksingers there can't sing no other way
Memory is so bad
They cling onto notepads
Singing folksongs down by Weymouth Bay
Meanwhile down in Bridport
Singing at The Woodman Inn
Thought I'd sing Tom Paxton – but I don't like to begin
Lesson too late for the learning to you My Rambling Boy
If I could remember the next bit
I'd be overcome with joy!
(apologies to jesse Fuller)


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:35 PM

Answering the question, "What to do?'--This is not a difficult problem to solve!

I organize and lead a monthly hymn sing(in a religious meeting that has a principled objection to the idea of any sort of leading). with a pianist who is an excellent sight reader, and we've instituted a "60 second rule" which simple is that no more than 60 seconds are allowed to elapse from the end of one hymn to the beginning of another. People in the group call out hymns(and, hopefully, their page number) and sing them.

Of course, this is not all there is to it, there are a couple secret tricks to keep it going--first, though people from the group call our tunes, and all seems spontaneous, I am "the decider" and subtly let George know which of the tunes called we'll actually do next, second, I keep a written out list of the favorite songs of the group, and when their is indirection, I've got something immediately ready so that there is no lag.

Also, when we do a difficult song, meaning one that doesn't work for one reason or another, I move immediately into a favorite. This is important because we have a few folks who call out songs they don't really know, and that are unfamiliar to the group--

I do try to get to everything that is called out, so people don't feel like they've been overlooked, and when new people join us, I make a point of finding something that is special to them, and when possible, I, or one of the regulars will pair with them on the song--

The thing is, I think don't think that the group should just let someone who isn't prepared take control of things, which is really what is happening above--I have three priorities: to keep it moving, to keep it interesting, and to make everyone feel like they are part of things. I try not to let anyone get in the way of that, including myself---


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM

Best of luck with your new session at the Walled Garden, Moreton, Al.

Have you started a thread about it?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:48 AM

I couldn't agree more. When I started in Avoustic/folk/open mic clubs I used Foldrs or word sheets. I ALWAYS made sure I had the right Words ready and my guitar tuned ready to go. And soon as I could I lernt to memorize the words
But it amazes me how many people neithr have the right words ready, and even worse (and many pros do this)do not have the guitar/instrument tuned up. Ok some folkies change the tuning between songs but surely they could be in tune for the first song, and not spend quite so long retuning in between songs, it's very boring and very annoying. BE PREPARED performers please and if you MUST talk between the songs make it bloody interesing ok


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 10:12 AM

Yeagh Ged sorry I wasn't clear enough there. I am not talking about unaccompanied. I'm talking guitarist/singers here. There is a regular at our club who plays guitar and sings with one of those Ipads for words/chords etc. He regularly stops at the first chorus mumbling "oh wrong key.....let's try again" and he restarts shifting the capo up and down the neck. I've seen others do similar. Yet all that is needed is to remember what key you sing it in; write it at the top if using a crib sheet; or save it in said key on your Ipod thing. It must be embarrassing as much as anything else. I sometimes sing unaccompanied myself so know what you mean.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM

"not even knowing what key it should be in," - As an unaccompanied singer, I very rarely consider what key I might be singing in; I suspect I generally sing in the key of the previous song. Occasionally, and relevant to this thread, where the song extends over a greater range than usual, I might take a moment or two to sing the extreme part to myself to make sure that it is pitched right for me.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:10 AM

It isn't the crib sheet per se. It's using it as an alternative to learning the song at all at any level and, the real crime, flicking through your notes rather than listening to others.

Many people just cannot commit a song to memory, but a working knowledge of the song sounds far better than sight reading, and surely if it is for entertaining others, you owe your audience at least that much?

I usually have a piece of paper with first lines of set and key sigs blue tacked to my guitar.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM

There are some who can use crib sheets and give a great performance with the audience hardly noticing use of sheets if they are noticed at all. There are others who stick their nose into the paper and don't look or interact with the audience at all. Likewise I know some who use no crib sheets and give great consistent performances whilst there are others who don't use crib sheets and can hardly finish any song without fumbling to a halt half way through because they've forgotten the words. Surely the issue is not crib sheet or no crib sheet as much as being prepared enough to give the best performance you can? For many people being prepared will mean having a crib sheet to hand. If they give as good a rendition of the song as they can though where is the harm?

I agree the regular fumbling about because you haven't considered what you might sing that night, the not even knowing what key it should be in, and the making a noise during other people's songs are annoying.

There are occassions though where someone may, because of the way things have gone, choose to sing something they weren't expecting to be singing that night. That is often the way people share maybe less known songs.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 04:14 AM

on the flip side, there are singers who can't wait to get up there...that sort of Julie Andrews vibe. just can't wait to brighten our lives...!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM

Cracking up at what Warwick Slade said! YESS! Love it!
Singing in an informal singaround is singing a song, not "a performance" to my mind anyway. As I said higher up the thread, too many people talking about and confusing entirely different scenarios here. If I get invited to do a floor spot at our local folk club, yes, I will try to get up there on stage, with a mike, and lights burning my eyeballs out and sing a song i know from memory. Then I'm performing.
But next week, with the same people, down at the pub session, if I want to sing something I know pretty well, but haven't yet fully memorised completely, I might put the words in front of me and glance at them when needed: that's participating, not performing.
And for other sessions now, I don't take big folders: just pick 2 or 3 song-sheets which I might never use, because, as others have said, you might change your mind about what's the best song to sing next, according to what's gone before.
I' also getting on a bit and recognise that there are still things in the memory bank that I learned at school or in my late teens, but trying to learn new songs now, becomes increasingly difficult. I have a far better memory for tunes than I do for words: that's just a facet of how my brain works, and you who can learn song lyrics after reading them through twice are surely blessed: but DON'T try to tell everyone they can do the same, because we are NOT all made the same way.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 02:55 PM

Bad timing Al. I had a meal there last month when Mrs Musket and I had a walking holiday with the alleged greyhound in Dorset last month.

We stayed at Whatsit St Andrews and coincidentally visited Mrs Musket's Aunty in Wimborne.

You and I both played the 'cow in Mansfield years ago. Bibliography was something practiced elsewhere back in those days.

By the way, whoever mentioned Les Barker. Yeah, poets can use notes. So can musicians but either way, poets aren't trying to concentrate on tune and often accompaniment whilst reading.

Before Les started resorting to scripts, presumably after he stopped having a dog to prompt him, he once, without cribsheet, chased the first Mrs Musket round the stage and rest of a marquee with a cucumber.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM

aplace with a similarly liberal attitude)
BIG BIG NEWS!!!!!
We're starting a new open mic every Sunday from next Sunday August 23rd
8pm-11pm
At the restaurant at
http://walledgardenmoreton.co.uk/
(DT2 8RG)
host: Big Al Whittle
All those of a musical/performing bent welcome
Usual suspects particularly welcome!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:26 PM

I just clicked to send an email for error non post , but I see it has posted .......?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM

Well Warwick, were I in Wimborne on a Thursday night, I reckon I be glad to come along and participate in your open , easy ,and respectful sing around.                               You done well , don , but for meself, at my time of life and other commitments, I am happy singing and playing my own songs on local level without getting paid....and with a safety net in front, just in case !.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Airymouse
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM

The songs I have learned first hand are like companions who are always with me. But I like to sings two versions of a song in tandem, one of which is my companion and the other of which is something I learned from a CD or the internet etc. I am 76 and I find sometimes that I have to stop to remember the opening line of the other song. It's like priming a pump: once I get the 1st line the rest flows naturally.
Those of you with a tradition of singarounds don't realize how lucky you are. Here (roughly Floyd VA) there are mostly two types of singers, performers and contestants. I have listened to Mary Lomax sing songs from her Ballad Book, sometimes stopping to look at a verse or two. And no, at 88, her voice is not so good as Joan Baez's. But it was a great privilege to have heard her.
If you require polished performances, you will eventually get the top acts; what you will lose are the songs that have hung on for centuries and then disappeared.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM

And regards to you as well, Warwick! Yes, I suppose I could be called "semi-pro" - used to be fully pro at one time - but I've never considered an unpaid performance any less demanding or less worthy of preparation than a paid one. It's still people sat in front of you, after all.

Incidentally, if you've done 90 minutes on stage - paper or not- then I say, "Well done!"

I suppose that, over the years, I've sat as an audience member in many folk clubs on several occasions. Latterly - by which I mean the last 10 years or so - I have been so bored by whole evenings of lamentable, paper-shuffling, note-peering performers, that I've lost the will to live. I vowed I just wouldn't go back to those places. So, if I sound a little jaded about all this, there are reasons for it!

I run a monthly music session/singaround down here in Sussex, and we regularly have attendees who sing from sheets. It's a singaround, really - certainly not a club - and I have absolutely no problem with it at all, though I do encourage people to have a crack at doing it all without benefit of paper.

At the other monthly session - also in Sussex - that I help to run, we don't use paper on the whole. And it's a cracking session - fiddles, guitars, mandolins, nyckelharpa, whistles, serpent - why, I even encourage a chorus of shaky eggs when singing one of my 1920s bits of trivia!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:48 AM

I take you point Will but we are confusing players, like yourself, who could be disc ribbed as semi- pros and the great unwashed who just like to perform with no ambition to become paid entertainers, or where the audience pays to attend. I also feel, in these days of equal opportunities everyone has the 'right' to be heard.
Incidentally I have done gigs where I manage 90 mins on stage (2-3 hours a bit too long) but that is not at the same club every week
Regards
Warwick


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM

I think the key phrase in your post, Warwick, is "the wish to perform". To me, this implies that the performer is centered on self, rather than on the audience.

Unfortunately,the wish to perform doesn't automatically confer the right to be heard.

As for people in their seventies - well, I'm one of them, and happy to perform for 2-3 hours off the cuff, which I do regularly. I wouldn't in a million years claim to be the greatest performer in the world - or even in my village - but I've worked hard over 50 years or so to try and give people pleasure and earn a few bob now and then. Which has been very enjoyable for me and, I hope, for the audiences I've played to. (I've also had a full life!)

Of course none of us is perfect - we all stumble occasionally - but good preparation minimises this, and the work put in reaps its own reward when you get to be "at one" with the audience.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:15 AM

By the way again, if you are ever in Wimborne, Dorset on a Thursday night come along to the Rising Sun Everyone is welcome as variety is the spice of life.
You can borrow guitar tuners, reading glasses and, on a bad night, even a banjo.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:08 AM

Give me a break. I am in my seventies and sing and play guitar every week and try to not repeat songs too often.Therefore i have a choice of using a prompt sheet, previously prepared with big print, or singing the same 10 songs I can remember. I would be criticised in each case. I could, of course, spend the week prior to the club learning the words but I have many more important things to do like taking the dog for a walk, talking to my wife or watching soaps on TV. I have a life!

If you do not want to see us amateurs play go and see Martin Carthy tune a guitar or Bob Dylan forget his words. See non of us are perfect.

By the way at the weekly club I attend all the above crimes are committed and all are forgiven with love because we respect each other and our wish to perform, however inadequate.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM

As far as folk-singing in England goes, I think it only a slight exaggeration to say that every non-gentry male singer in rural parts, up until the mid twentieth century, learnt his craft in exactly the same way. From the late nineteenth century onwards, school singing lessons (using books) would have been a starting point for working class children everywhere.

There is a book about the social history of hymns in Victorian England which points out that they were THE mass literature of the time. Novelists like Dickens or populist poets like Tennyson came nowhere near the readership of a popular hymn writer. Their reach was far greater than the school system. And hymns always meant hymnbooks. It wasn't just recognized male "singers", it was the entire literate public of both sexes. (You didn't get delays in a service because the numbers were there for you, up on a board).

Anyway, there are already innumerable threads here about using written texts or not when singing. If I'd expected this thread to turn into yet another orgy of selfrighteousness by people who can't sing and read at the same time, I wouldn't have started it.

If you haven't yet learned how to work your use of a cribsheet into a fast-moving, slick act that conceals its considerable stagecraft, watch Les Barker in action.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 06:23 AM

Well, anonymous Guest, we all have different talents. I learnt the skill of singing with a book in front of me when I was a boy in a church choir. As far as folk-singing in England goes, I think it only a slight exaggeration to say that every non-gentry male singer in rural parts, up until the mid twentieth century, learnt his craft in exactly the same way. From the late nineteenth century onwards, school singing lessons (using books) would have been a starting point for working class children everywhere.

Obviously, there are many other non-literate strands in the fabric but, from the time of Wynken de Worde at least, singing from a song sheet has been a major part of communal singing.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 05:16 AM

Perhaps there is a place for singing with a ring binder but I for one am not talented enough to use them

I stand (not sit..) in awe of people who can manage to concentrate on reading words and sing them with feeling at the same time. Snag is, I rarely come across such people.

Call me thick, but I thought those around you were supposed to be listening to you as you offer them the courtesy of listening to them.

Two things here. Not learning a song before performing it in public and sat reading whilst some poor bugger is trying to sing.

Both are bad manners.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 04:59 AM

Aha - a useful tip from Don for those who use crib-sheets at singarounds - keep them in "ring binders (alphabetized.)" That makes searching time much shorter, and it makes it easy to remove the songs that you have memorised. (I was once asked if my fat folder contained all the songs I know - my answer was "No, it contains a few of the songs I like but don't know.")
And, in these days of cheap computers and cheap printers, have the songs typed in a large enough size to read comfortably at a glance. (I prefer 14pt Verdana.)
If that makes the song too big to fit on 2 A4 sheets, then cut out verses until it does fit.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:34 AM

'Scuse me:

"Lynn, a black folk singer..." (Or a young woman who sang folk songs who just happened to be black).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 01:25 AM

My big battle with "political correctness" occurred off and on from a song I learned from Walt Robertson, who, in turn, had learned it from Leadbelly.

The opening verse, which becomes the chorus, goes:

Black girl, black girl, don't lie to me,
Tell me, where did you sleep last night?
"In the pines, in the pines,
"And I shivered when the cold winds blow."

A poignant song of a young woman whose husband was killed in a railroad accident.

I got pounced on because of the "black girl" lyrics. Not "politically correct!" I shouldn't sing it!

I sang it for two young women, Lynn, a folk black singer, and Rosetta, a non-singing operator I worked with when I was with the telephone company in the 1980s. Both liked the song and said they were not at all offended to hear it sung by a white folk singer. They both told me to keep right on singing it.

Lynn had her own problems. People (white people) were on her case because she (horror of horrors!!) didn't sing blues and didn't want to. She liked ballads and sang them very well indeed.

Reminds me of Marian Anderson, a rich voiced operatic contralto, who, when they finally let her sing in "white" venues, expected her to sing only spitiuals!

On "Black Girl," I've heard a few white singers wimp out and sing it "Little Girl...." Totally limp! Gutless!!

Sorry for the thread drift…. Now, back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:56 PM

Now, be nice, Don. After all, please realize that I am associate editor of Rise Again, sequel to the Rise Up Singing Songbook. However, when I saw this song in the galleys, I remembered that I was the associate editor, not the editor:

    The gypsy
    [trav'ling] rover came over the hill...

I won some battles, but not all of them...

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:31 PM

Great posting Don. You might remember that early on, it was YOU who taught me so much, especially with tips about just how to memorize the words to the songs I was trying to memorize. My dim memory tells me that, as you suggested, I actually taped to words to a ballad I was struggnig with, to the bathroom mirror. That way, even though I was supposed to be shaving my young face, my "next song" was always in view! bob(deckman)nelson


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