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why do singers take so long to start?

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Don Firth 15 Aug 15 - 09:24 PM
Jack Campin 15 Aug 15 - 07:22 PM
Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 06:50 PM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Aug 15 - 06:16 PM
Joe Offer 15 Aug 15 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM
Don Firth 15 Aug 15 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,# 15 Aug 15 - 02:50 PM
Bill D 15 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,crazy little woman 15 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Sol 15 Aug 15 - 10:28 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 10:26 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 09:35 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 15 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,# 15 Aug 15 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 06:57 AM
SunrayFC 15 Aug 15 - 04:02 AM
Jack Campin 15 Aug 15 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Musket digging out his notes 15 Aug 15 - 02:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 15 - 01:11 AM
Deckman 15 Aug 15 - 12:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 11:06 PM
Pamela R 14 Aug 15 - 08:39 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 15 - 07:45 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 15 - 06:51 PM
Don Firth 14 Aug 15 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 15 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 14 Aug 15 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 14 Aug 15 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 14 Aug 15 - 11:32 AM
GUEST, Sol 14 Aug 15 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,phil cooper on spouse's laptop 14 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM
Jack Campin 14 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 10:17 AM
Will Fly 14 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 08:48 AM
Mary Humphreys 14 Aug 15 - 08:31 AM
Ged Fox 14 Aug 15 - 07:42 AM
BobKnight 14 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM
GUEST, Sol 14 Aug 15 - 06:31 AM
Johnny J 14 Aug 15 - 06:18 AM
GUEST, DTM 14 Aug 15 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Ripov 14 Aug 15 - 05:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 15 - 05:28 AM
MartinRyan 14 Aug 15 - 05:21 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 15 - 05:15 AM
Will Fly 14 Aug 15 - 05:11 AM
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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:24 PM

Yeah, Joe, I first met Merritt Herring in 1960 at one of the Berkeley Folk Festivals. Fantastic singer!   He moved up to the Seattle area and manifested himself at the Seattle Song Circle meetings in the late 1970s. He was a regular, every Sunday evening—at least until the dreaded "blue book" started showing up, and then he—and a fair number of others—started making themselves scarce.

Along with "Rise Up Sinking" (a good collection as far as learning words is concerned, even if they have been bowdlerized and rendered "politically correct") as the "official and ordained hymnal," plus watching people stagger into the meetings laden down with a stack of song books and three-ring binders, mull through their libraries while others waited, then regale the assembled company with feeble attempts at Jacques Brel songs, for cripe's sake (!!) was a bloody waste of a perfectly good Sunday evening.

That's when the singers like Merritt Herring, Bob Nelson, John Dwyer, Stan James, John and Sally Ashford, and others decided that there were better things to do with their time.   Wotthehell! Sunday evening. Masterpiece Theatre is on TV, so….   

=======

Fair question, pete.

One aspect is simply loving the song and wanting to keep it. And one way of keeping it is to memorize it, so you can hear it any time you want, even if it's silently in your own mind.

Another is to be able to sing it—and sing it well, not just by rote. One of my voice teachers had me bring my guitar to lessons and sing whatever song I was working on at the time. As I sang it, he would often stop me and say, "Now, what does that line (or phrase, or word) mean?" Now, he knew perfectly well, he just wanted to make sure that I knew what it meant, and was not just singing the song by rote.

The key to really putting a song across to others is to know what it is you are singing about. And it's next to impossible to do that—with feeling—unless you have the song solidly memorized.

And then the reward of enthusiastic and genuine applause, indicating that the audience you are singing for at the time enjoyed your rendition of the song. And if you can do this consistently with all the songs you sing, you might qualify for

Financial rewards. And who knows how far that can go?

Early on, as I was first learning songs, I sang at "hootenannies," parties, generally in private homes, where folk song enthusiasts would get together and sing for each other. We were all working hard at learning songs, so there were no song books or crib sheets in evidence. We brought our particular collection of songs in our memories.

After I'd been doing this for maybe five or six years, and had developed a repertoire of maybe a hundred or so songs (I also studied up on where they came from, which also informed me as to how the song should be sung), I was approached by a jazz musician friend who often attended these "hoots" just to listen. His day job was working for the Seattle Public Library, developing programs for the newly formed educational television channel based at the University of Washington, to make people aware of materials available at the library. He had put on a series of shows about jazz, his particular field, then another series about string quartets, calling on a fledgling group of students at the U. of W.'s music department—and he asked me to do a program of folk songs and ballads with explanations about the backgrounds of the songs. Since I had learned a number of songs from songbooks and records I had checked out at the library, this would not be a problem. I panicked a bit at the thought of doing a series of live television shows, but he assured me that I would do fine.

I did manage to bring it off, and I was told that the library--and the U. of W.--were happy with the programs.

Important point for the purpose of this particular discussion: this was before the days of teleprompters, and the small, mostly student-run station didn't have the personnel to do me up a bunch of cue-cards. I had to rely solely on my memory! There were a number of near coronaries during the series, but my careful memorization of the songs helped me to muddle through.

I muddled through well enough, apparently, because I got a number of offers for singing jobs from people who watched the series—including an offer for a steady job from a man who was just about to open what turned out to be Seattle's nicest coffeehouse, next door to the art and foreign film theater that he owned—hence the name of the coffeehouse, "The Place Next Door."

That involved singing four or five half-hour sets per evening, three evenings a week. It was a steady, on-going job, and it paid, not lavishly, but well and regularly! It paid my rent and kept me fed!!

This, in turn, led to other singing jobs, some at private parties, but mostly at nearby schools and colleges. Each singing job led to others.

I was off and running!! Upthread, at 14 Aug 15 - 06:17 PM, I mention a number other singing jobs I've had, including at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.

I have a whole bookshelf full of song books and academic ballad study books, and big shelf in the living room of folk music LPs, another shelf of CDs, I keep my repertoire of a few hundred songs and ballads in a couple of three ring binders (alphabetized) along with set lists and concert programs, and other related notes and materials. I also keep the same materials on my computer, safely backed up on flash drives.

The only "visual aid" I use when I'm performing is my planned concert program or set list taped to the side of my guitar, so a quick glance will show me what song is next. These, however, are not chiseled in stone. I can make last minute changes if I deem it necessary.   

This post is getting pretty long, so I'll end it here. If anyone is interested, I can post a rundown on my procedure for memorizing songs.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 07:22 PM

As I see it, singing from a paper or book prevents both of those functions.

You may have that disability but plenty of other people don't. Singing or playing effectively from a sheet is a skill worth learning. Try it sometime.

Was this guy lazy or a beginner? (He's playing his own composition).

Piazzolla: Resurrecion del Angel

Bill D's point about things going better on theme nights fits with what I've observed. I think it simply narrows the available choices to what people with minds like that can cope with; give them a whole folder to choose from and they act with all the decisiveness of an earthworm in the middle of a wet road.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:50 PM

Merritt was a treasure and a joy to behold. If I ever had to assemble a list of my very top ten favorite singers and persons, he would be on that list. bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:16 PM

When I sing, I want to be--and am--personally
involved in the communication of the song (most
commonly a song that tells a story), and a big
part of that is the personal eye contact with
listeners, with my being visibly involved in
"telling" the song to listeners.

If the audience is too large to make ACTUAL
eye contact, my eyes run through the audience,
which gives the listeners the feeling that I'm
looking at various other listeners, and gives
me much the same feeling about communicating
the song.

As I see it, singing from a paper or book
(or tablet, I suppose) prevents both of those
functions. YMMV.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:01 PM

Don, did you know Merritt Herring? I think he came from your area. He was one of the best singers I've had the privilege of knowing. He worried about forgetting songs in the last years of his life, so he kept his lyrics in a looseleaf binder.
I'd kill to get a copy of that binder.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM

and what are the rewards, don ?....other than being confident of not needing props or reminders.   however, some preparation would be nice even in amateur application.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 03:04 PM

Perhaps my upbringing was strange, Crazy Little Woman, but I was always taught that if you want the rewards, you have to do the work.

Some good observations and suggestions, there, Bill D.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 02:50 PM

Bill, many thanks. Most of it's what I'd thought, but some of what you wrote is new to me. Although I'm aware your writing was meant for a wider audience, it was a big help in answering my question.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM

It would take several hours and many paragraphs to totally discuss the many issues and explanations for the differences between people and their approach and abilities.... here is a semi-short one.

There are several different types of 'singaround'.. there are public, **open** ones with few rules, designed to just encourage music. These, as noted, can be pretty good or pretty bad.

There are similar ones, but with topics named days or weeks in advance, meant to stimulate people to look up songs and reduce the decision making process...(this has been the general way the Open Sing of FSGW has operated for over 40 years.) A topic can either help one choose and learn a song... or scare the amateur who 'likes music' but has problems with finding source material...(not everyone has 40 years of collecting books and LPs...etc.)
   IF one attends these, there WILL be highs & lows, and there are fairly good singers who have a high pain threshold but who like sharing and helping newcomers. The FSGW sing sorts them out pretty efficiently, but has gone thru its own stages. When I first arrived, it was "the place to be" once a month... but when a few better musicians could no longer be there, others simply did as Don & Deckman explained, and opted out. A personal decision, but tending to water down even further the overall 'quality'. This is further complicated by where meeting are held.. in public hall with plenty of room (as FSGW did for many years) or private homes with varying degrees of comfort and accessibility.

Now-- the main issue... there are also just different types of people. There are those who are **musicians** who do music almost every day, whether professionally, or as dedicated, competent amateurs who absorb folk music and its history like a sponge. Then there are those who really like the music, but whose daily life may be guided by many other things and turn to singing/playing as a nice, but occasional thing.... or who only discovered the idea of a 'singaround' recently. Sometimes these develop into serious, talented folk, but we never find out if they are discouraged by being snubbed or ridiculed in early attempts.

Then there are seriously different... for want of a better term... 'brain types' who process and memorize words quite differently and efficiently. (I MUST usually see a song in print as I learn it.... my brain often cannot follow a song I don't already know. I DO make very attempt to learn it if I intend to sing it in public, but if it is not something I expect to add to my permanent repertoire, or if months or even years pass between it being needed, I may resort to a small crib sheet.
   This bring up something referred to above by others.... I will NOT attempt to do a song is I cannot be fairly sure I can handle it WITH a crib sheet... and I have posted before that IF I can close my eyes and not tell whether someone is using a sheet, I am fine.

..and of course, along with varying abilities in memorizing, there are personality & psychological approaches to performing in public. I knew one guy who, when in the audience, could supply missing words for others, but when singing the same song himself, would stumble. I think it has something to do with 'seeing' the audience and being distracted by their reactions. (Thus the suggestion about closing ones eyes when singing...or at least looking at the floor...)

   None of all this matters to YOU if you simply cannot take the mediocre along with the good to excellent. Private, invitation events are one answer.... but if you ARE competent, it helps if you occasionally 'serve as a good example' and explicate TO the newbies and wannabes some of these basic issues. If you DO attend singarounds, I think that some effort should be made [in the name of the group and probably anonymously] to clarify how awkward fumbling and mumbling can affect the enjoyment for others.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 11:49 AM

Sol gimme a ring. achat with a fellow folksinger is never time wasted.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM

So, Don, everybody's supposed to be exactly like you, or you'll start yelling?

People's minds differ. It may be that some simply find it impossible to memorize. People's lives differ. Some may not have the time to memorize. Personalities differ. A book or page may simply be a prop that dispels nervousness.

Some old folkies sneer at new singers and then they wonder why folk music is a dying art.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:28 AM

Sorry forgot to fill in "From" box. Above post from Sol.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 10:26 AM

"...But you know what? When I hear a bloody good singer and / or guitarist and look round the room to see idiots flicking through their books deciding what they are singing next, I can't help feeling they have a bit of a nerve. Anyone would think the whole bloody pub is eagerly awaiting their next rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme....">

I agree 100%.
I hate when people prep their next song or check their emails/facebook when someone is singing. It is totally disrespectful. Wait till the song is finished then do what you have to, you ignoramus.

It would be great to see everybody at a session check their phones en mass throughout the turn of one of these offenders. Maybe then they would get the message.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:35 AM

not that I wish to "barge" in!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 09:31 AM

Al, you wanna get together? you seem adrift in lifes waterways...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 08:19 AM

It sounds like it's a perennial problem. Because it seems to be, would someone please explain the difference(s) between

Song circles
Open mics
Jams

and other terms used by the informed to designate where and how they display or share their talents?

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM

well steve, I should add, that the problem of people talking in the song circle is not confined to when it is my turn. but maybe it was just an innocent enquiry eh steve....

don and deckman seem to have the right idea...leave those amateur endeavours and have by invitation only sessions with " real " singers ! should be a hoot !. it probably leaves pros and lesser singers happier.
mind you I do agree with musket that it is bad manners endlessly looking through binders etc , though imo, that applies whether the person performing is greatly accomplished or less so.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 06:57 AM

'I'm saying nothing!'

from the man who wrote Ringbinder Blues...!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 04:02 AM

I'm saying nothing!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 03:38 AM

I've never heard of a singaround in a library before.

"Join in the famous blues jam in the British Museum Reading Room"?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket digging out his notes
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 02:57 AM

I may have mentioned this before in thinly disguised other threads.

When I started going to folk clubs, nobody used books or sang to paper. Amongst other things, most clubs were of the stage and facing audience variety. OK, the singaround cum library sessions are inclusive I suppose and many people who wouldn't have even tried to get up and sing in those environments can now do so.

But you know what? When I hear a bloody good singer and / or guitarist and look round the room to see idiots flicking through their books deciding what they are singing next, I can't help feeling they have a bit of a nerve. Anyone would think the whole bloody pub is eagerly awaiting their next rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme.

No problem with people not being quite ready. It means they are here to listen to others as well as rattle out their own offerings.

Mind you, when those with books kindly compliment my playing, I do try to gently point out that it isn't some talent or other, but learning the song properly and dispensing with the props improves the rendition. If you want an audience, you owe it to them to do your best. Not the best they have heard but the best you can give.

When I do go to singarounds, and I help run a couple for that matter, I increasingly sing with my eyes shut. Mainly because staring at the reading room of a fucking library removes the will to live.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 01:11 AM

Surely the greatest period - i envy you all the wonderful music and musicians you must have encountered.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 12:46 AM

This might be a long posting. I think it's time to put this frequant complaint to rest. I hope that I can do that wisely and without starting any more useless arguments.

Let me try explain just where I'm coming from regarding this subject of the use of books during song sessions, versus non-acceptance of this practice.

I'll dare to include my long time friend of sixty two years in my explaination:

Don Firth and I met in Seattle in 1953, and we soon became submerged in the "hoot scene." "Hoots", as we knew them then, were a unique kind of gathering of folk singers and quite magical. There were several elements that stood out, one being that anyuone who attended was invited to attend, and anyone who performed was expected to perform well and without the use of any prompts like books, or crib sheets, etc. These hoots were where Don and I, and many others, grew up musically, both as musicians and as performers. In those days, the living rooms were filled with the best of the best, and we all learned from each other.

But that time is long gone.

Somewhere in the mid 1970's, the late John Dwyer, and several other fine singers, started the Seattle "song circles." John was also a strong participant in the early hoots and he was well steeped in the hoot traditions of no books, etc. Very quickly, the 'song circles' became very popular. And from what I've read on MC, are also popular in Europe.

But also, much to the consternation of us old foggies,(and that includes Don and I) the dreaded "Blue Book" appeared on the scene. "Oh horrors of all horrors", we all yelled. "This will never do ... it's a sin ..."

But, the times had changed, and just like the genie in bottle, there weren't no puttin' it back!

Is this a bad thing? Of course not. Things change, people change, times change. The "Blue book" has encouraged generations now to enjoy music with increasing depth.

The thing that I have to remember is that the song circles of today are NOT the hoots of yesterday. And they never will be.

That's why I no longer fight th delemma. My answer is twofold: I no longer attend any song circles, and I host private, invitation only, "hoots" when I wish.

So ... I hope I haven't bored you, but I thought this distinction between "hoots" and "song circles" might help. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM

having said that, the Coppers were always pretty organised. they didn't piss about, they always got on with it.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 11:06 PM

i suppose different countries have different traditions. in England , probably our most famous folk singing family, the Coppers have a tradition of having books with the words in front of them.

i've never used a crib sheet, but i don't feel theres any sort of moral imperative not to use one.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Pamela R
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:39 PM

Wow. REAL singers. Shouting in bold. Most clarifying.

(end sarcasm)

I can understand being angry when song circles don't go the way we hoped. Especially when we started them. It's disappointing and frustrating. I've been there, and I get that. But I don't see a lot of value to anyone in venting.

I think people come to song circles motivated by different, equally legitimate but sometimes conflicting goals. The posts above offer good evidence of this. So if the overarching goal is for all of us to receive more of what we wanted out of song circles, maybe it would help to clearly identify our own goals, understand the other possible goals people might have, and think about how best to cultivate different types of circles that are dedicated to serving these different goals.

I'd be glad to discuss that sort of thing with anyone interested, but perhaps that should be a separate thread.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 07:45 PM

Back before I got into singing folk songs, I was an opera fan. I listened to the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts on Saturday afternoons, and on the rare occasion when a local entrepreneur produced an opera (usually built around a nationally known singer, along with some pretty good locals), I was there.

Then a friend of mine acquainted me with a small, local opera company (this was some years before Seattle Opera was founded and Seattle got its own opera company—which is now the fourth largest in the country!). A Mrs. Towers, a local voice teacher reasoned that young singers would do a lot better in opera auditions if, instead of just knowing a few well-known arias, they knew a few entire roles. She started TOPS, "Towers Opera Production Studios," and she would produce four or five operas a year, with the casts made up of her young students.

She and her students would put on an entire opera on the small stage of a "decommissioned" movie theater in Seattle's Broadway District. The young singers would sing an entire opera, complete with sets and costumes, with Mrs. Towers playing the orchestral part on a grand piano. I saw productions of several operas there: "Faust," with a sixteen-year-old Marguerita, a seventeen-year-old Faust, and a seventeen-year-old-Mephistopheles; "Rigoletto," with the same sixteen-year-old girl as Gilda, an eighteen-year-old Duke of Mantua, and a twenty-five-year-old Rigoletto; other productions of full-length operas with often—usually—teenage casts, such as "I Pagliacci" and "Cavalleria Rusticana."

Some of these kids carved out pretty good careers for themselves. The sixteen-year-old girl who I saw—and heard—doing both Marguerita and Gilda—wound up singing for Seattle Opera, is now retired from singing, and is on the Seattle Opera's executive board.   

And the point of this particular spasm?

If these kids could memorize the score of an entire operatic role—which could extend for as much as three or four hours—what is the matter with some folks who can't get through a three minute folk song without referring to a book or crib sheet!??

Don Firth

P. S. Ancient skops, skalds, and bards used to sing—from memory—songs and ballads that ran to hundreds of verses. Beowulf takes several hours to recite. It's the medieval equivalent of a television miniseries…..

Don't dishonor an ancient tradition by being slap-dash!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:51 PM

Amen, Don!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:17 PM

After going with a young woman who was really into folk songs when I was in my early twenties and hearing, then subsequently meeting Walt Robertson (who really got me started on the guitar—and taught me a great deal about singing for audiences, which stood me in good stead later on)—I set about building a career for myself as a singer of folk songs.

Although I never became nationally famous, I was well-known around the Pacific Northwest, and made a decent living as a modern-day minstrel. I was heavily into learning the backgrounds of the songs I sang, and as a result, I was asked to do a series on local educational television, funded by the Seattle Public Library ("Ballads and Books"—without teleprompter or cue cards), and this led to many other singing jobs, one of which was in one of Seattle's first coffeehouses, run by the owner of an art and foreign film theater, who ran a clean place (your elbows didn't stick to the tables), and he paid reasonably well.

Over the years, I have sung many concerts, usually at colleges in the area, but also in local concert halls, such as The Playhouse at the Seattle Center, where Richard Dyer-Bennet sang three concerts during the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. I also sang regularly every Sunday afternoon at the United Nations Pavilion along with about a dozen other local folk singers, and the following year at the Seattle Center Hootenannies every Wednesday evening, which drew crowds of up to 15,000 people!

And along with this, perhaps a thousand or so "hootenannies" in private homes, along with other singers, just for the fun of it.

No song books, song sheets, or three-ring binders appeared at any of these events until sometime late in the 1970s at the Seattle Song Circle. Up until then people would not think of taking up the time of others with a song book or crib sheet in their hands. It was an unspoken "no-no!" People just didn't do it. Learn the song. Then do it.

A few newcomers to Seattle Song Circle began bringing copies of Rise Up Singing to meetings and singing out of the book—or out of three-ring binders they had prepared. We spent a great deal of time at some meetings listening to someone riffle through pages and mumble their way through songs that they sometimes hadn't even read before.

My wife and I—and all of the other real singers who first started the Song Circle—over a brief period of time, dropped out.

The moral of the story is:

Learn the damned song before you get up in front of an audience, bore the hell out of people, and generally make an ass of yourself!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:04 PM

So why were they talking when they knew you wanted to sing?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:12 PM

On reflection, and as been mentioned in this connection , there have been times when I have not began immediately, even though ready, as I was waiting for at least some people to stop talking !.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 12:26 PM

I thought of something else.

Nobody can do everything. Maybe the people who don't have their songs memorized are perfectly fit and their homes are utterly uncluttered. Have you ever thought of that?

;-)


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 11:32 AM

I agree with you, Sol. Variety is important, so is being aware of the mood of your audience.

Another factor: I bet that if the impatient people timed the people who fail to sing immediately, that the impatient people would discover that the delay is a matter of a few seconds. Probably less than 30.

Where do people get the idea that their needs should be met immediately, if not before? I suppose it comes from watching TV. On TV, the announcer announces a singer, the camera goes to the singer's face, and the singer starts immediately. We get used to that. Never mind that it's all preprogrammed, rehearsed and videotaped. And the singer isn't gazing earnestly into our eyes, but into a teleprompter.

(I guess that there's very little of that kind of programming any more. Nonetheless, we're used to it.)
======
I used to get very irritated when babies cried in church until a priest pointed out to me that when they cry, they cry for only a few seconds. I'd never even thought of that.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST, Sol
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 11:05 AM

I agree totally with the points made by Ged Fox & Big Al.

I tend to try & sing the opposite of what my predecessor has sung. That usually entails having a 'light' and 'heavy' song at the ready.
I once saw a folk band toiling with dreary ballads in a bar full of drunken rugby supporters. I was asked to sing and did a rendition of some spirited drinking song which oddly got their immediate attention.

It should be generally horses for courses - or you could just do your own thing and stuff the rest of mankind.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,phil cooper on spouse's laptop
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM

I've seen people at song circles that didn't use books still dither when it came time for their turns. It may drive me up the wall, but I figure that's how they are. I've seen others use books without too much wasted time. I have participated in a regular workshop where one of the performers (who should have known better), showed up, had to tune their banjo and then still decided what to do. And that was at a festival with other performers waiting to do their turns and a fixed time allotted.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM

Decide what songs your going to sing before the evening starts - that way you don't have to flick through sheets - if you need them.
absolutely not! have some consideration for your audience. if there has been three epic ballads already, just because you've prepared one don't feel the audience should be obliged to sit there appreciating.


Agreed. It's not too difficult to assemble a repertoire of four songs, one epic, one lyrical, one funny and one polemical, is it? That should cover pretty near any context.

I don't think most of the shuffling timewasters manage to categorize their repertoire that way - if they did, it would cut down the time it takes to decide what to do.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 10:17 AM

i dunno Will , are we?

to tackle one of the big ballads takes committment, skill.......+etc. anything you can give it. but there are some times when you have to accept that the thing you planned to do....just doesn't fit into that evening, or in my mind you should.

sometimes i wanna do some really downbeat blues - but if some buggers been going on about the first world war for fifteen minutes. irealise that the audience has had enough depressive stuff and they need lifting.
to burden an audience with what you've got planned is not always a rookies mistake. similarly a certain kind of singer songwriter will demand attention. at a point when the audience is totally overloaded and needs a bit of lightness.

i'll tell you this the audience always rewards you for engaging with their mood. it can be frustrating - if you've worked hard on a piece, or if you've got an album to plug and some asshole has bored their pants off and demanded their attention. but you must honour your skill as a performer in the first instance.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM

But surely it's the rookies we're talking to here, Al. You and I are certainly experienced enough to be able to pull stuff out of the bag on the evening as required But...

... A beginner or tentative performer may not have the scope to do that, so better - perhaps - that they stick with what they have confidence in. Which may be just two or three well-rehearsed songs, for example.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:48 AM

2.Decide what songs your going to sing before the evening starts - that way you don't have to flick through sheets - if you need them.

absolutely not! have some consideration for your audience. if there has been three epic ballads already, just because you've prepared one don't feel the audience should be obliged to sit there appreciating.

similarly if there have been several comic songs, you shouldn't feel obliged to try and top the last one.
its about an evening out...hopefully that people will want to attend again. there has to be balance, or at least there should be, and experienced singers must provide this. the rookies have a limited repertoire - us guys should know what we're doing.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:31 AM

I think that for everybody's sake, anyone wanting to sing a song in a sing-around should have a song they are able to sing without any comfort blanket and without eternally faffing about key and finding pages. Never mind if it is something you have sung before, do it again. Some 'old boys' only had one or two songs they were happy to sing. Do the same as them.
Grow your confidence in this way.
It makes sing-arounds much more enjoyable for both listeners and participants.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 07:42 AM

I generally use the crib sheet on the first occasion, at least, that I sing a song to an audience, even if I think I know the song. In such a case, I'll have the crib handy in the front of the folder.

I don't usually know exactly what songs I'm going to sing, sometimes right up to the moment when I start singing, because I like to complement or contrast with the stuff that's been sung or played before me. It may be that the most apposite song requires me to use a crib sheet, in which case, shock! horror! I might spend a moment looking for it.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: BobKnight
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM

1.Tune your instrument before the session starts - at the very least take the bloody thing out of it's case.
2.Decide what songs your going to sing before the evening starts - that way you don't have to flick through sheets - if you need them.
3.Don't try to sing songs you don't really know - if you don't know them, keep them at home until you rehearse them enough to know them. 4.It's bad manners to inflict your half-arsed, unrehearsed efforts on other people.
5.Keep your intro's short-you may love the sound of your own voice, others rarely do.
6. Learn the words - no excuses for not apart from laziness. Case in point; my brother has gone onstage for forty odd years with a sheaf of lyrics. He's been having eye problems lately, cataract, etc, and suddenly he's managing without the lyrics because he HAS to - he can't see the sheets.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST, Sol
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:31 AM

Can I just say, if you read from a crib sheet you will never learn the words of the song. I know a guy who has sung the same song week in week out for more than 20 years and still can't do it without the lyrics in front of him.

That said, I usually have a lyric sheet in front of me because, at my age, now and again my mind goes blank & I need a cue for the next verse or line. At that point I take a discrete look down at the table always trying to make it look like a natural head movement or with half-closed eyes.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:18 AM

Ripov has a good point.

Maybe the question should be "Why do singers take so long to finish?"


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:18 AM

My biggest bugbear is when a singer chants a verse and a half of a song, gets stuck then announces that they'd be better singing another song. They then proceed to waste another 5 minutes of our lives digging through their binder(s) before treating us to yet another classic.
Just as bad is when they get half way through a song, screw up and say "I'll start again".

By that time, I've usually lost the will to live.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Ripov
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 05:55 AM

The problem is not taking a long time to start sorting the paperwork out, but taking forever to sing the song because they have a written record of all 31 verses - and they're not even funny!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 05:28 AM

i remember the good old days when folksingers used to piss about with ringbinders. nowadays - you have wait for them to set up their little stands with an ipad and then bugger about on the floor to plug in the thing to turn the pages over.....

back in those days we never waited more than ten minutes for them to find the song they wanted to sing, and their false teeth, and put them in...
we need to get that macrobiotic thing back.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 05:21 AM

Sensible stuff, Will Fly. Maybe his first step would be to try singing the song - with a blank sheet of paper on the stand in front of him! Retains the comfort blanket, hide-behind-the-stand element but exercises the memory...

Regards

p.s. By way of thread creep... I've seen many accordionists, in particular, who seem to use the instrument to keep an audience at bay! ;>)>


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 05:15 AM

It's fine to credit briefly the writer of a song or the person who inspired you to sing it. Over and above that, sing it and let the song speak for itself. Faffing around in an Irish tune session is unacceptable, as is the use of printed music, yet there are people who can play thousands of tunes without hesitation. If you have to flick through sheets of paper in order to prevent your forgetting the words, your commitment to the song is questionable. As are your manners!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 05:11 AM

An appropriate, short-and-to-the-point intro to a tune or song can enhance the listeners' appreciation of it, if done competently. No harm in that. That's quite a different matter from the time-wasting exercise of shuffling through a wodge of papers in plastic sheets inside a ring binder which is coming apart on a music stand which is not quite opened properly... and you know the rest.

The issue, to me, is to ask yourself why you're where you are as a performer. Surely the prime reason for being there is to entertain or enlighten, and to bring some joy or reflection to the audience - not just to put yourself in the spotlight for your own personal amusement?

My own session/singaround welcomes everyone of whatever standard and with music and mini-stands but, for those who are worried about music stands, music, etc., in public performance, I offer this:

1. You know that you're going to get probably two - at most three - songs for a floor spot at a folk club, so ...
2. Concentrate on learning only those two or three songs and getting them as fixed into your head as possible.
3. If you can only do two, or even just one, without getting worried - then just elect to do two, or even one.
4. Don't repeat the same stuff at the next session - learn two more new ones.
5. If you can't learn two new ones - don't elect to do a floor spot until you have learned some more.

Many of us of a certain age learned these quite sensible rules - in my case fifty years ago - and the discipline of that approach has stood the test of time.

Here's a little story: Everyone who attends my monthly caper knows that I always encourage people to put aside the paper and sing and play without it. A friend of mine who attends my session always sings and plays from typed out sheets. He has a nice voice and is a competent, if basic guitarist. When we discuss playing from paper or memory, he asserts that he just finds it difficult to perform in front of people without paper there as "the words disappear". I can understand that fear. In conversation recently, I set him a challenge: the next time he attends a particular local folk club (which I don't attend as they all shuffle paper around on music stands), he has to get two songs under his belt to perform without benefit of paper. I will go along with him as his backing guitarist and - if need - word backup. If he fucks up, it won't matter because I'll be with him to keep us going. To my delight, he accepted the challenge and seemed quite bucked by it. And, hopefully, I won't fuck up either!

Now, might it be a good idea if those who feel happy and confident without music can help those who do have a difficulty - by teaming up with them now and then and boosting their performance confidence.


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