why do singers take so long to start?

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:46 AM

What about using a tablet or suchlike device- at least you'd be spared the rustle of papers while other folk are singing.... don't see how you'll get people to stop faffing about at the crucial moment
for whatever reason.
In another context, how many times have some of us stood at a supermarket checkout while the person in front, having done everything else, suddenly realises that he/she also has to pay, and that their purse/wallet is buried deep in their bag or pocket? It's just human nature to faff, so get used to it!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:45 AM


So let me get this right everyone is supposed ...
It depends on the circumstances. What would be OK in a singaround may not be appropriate when on stage.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:40 AM

Several people talking about different things here.

I don't really mind if people use lyric sheets or music notation, provided they know what they are going to sing/ play reasonably well.

But it also irritates me if, in a "round the room" session, where people KNOW when their turn is coming up, THEN when their turn comes, they start thumbing through the thick folder for the song they can't find, have to get out of their seat to retrieve guitar from somwhere else, adjust seat position 3 times over, adjust capo 3 times, then still decide they've started in the wrong key, re-start, give a long explanation, etc, etc, etc.
Oh and yes, Acorn4, no flicking through folders while others are singing (or in the present tech age, scrolling through IPads, tablets and mobile phones - and PLEASE, no texting or Facebooking/Tweeting!) just do your fellow-sessioners the courtesy of LISTENING!

As for tuning instruments, I would do mine before the evening starts, and make any fine adjustments during applause, before my turn comes round- if you are using an electronic tuner thus should be possible in the presence if bacground noise.

But agree with Al, it may be nice to have a SHORT explanation of what inspired the writing of a particular song, or other background to it - but that is a very different scenario from what Jack and others were complaining about. Such an intro should never be longer than the song!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:25 AM

If you want to be at a song circle that welcomes people who are trying to get over a fear of singing in public, you will enjoy yourself more if you can accept their need to have written lyrics.

I don't have a particular problem with people using paper so long as they can use it effectively. And a lot of the people I had in mind got over any fear they might have had about singing in public 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 04:16 AM

So let me get this right everyone is supposed to memorise both the music and lyrics.

They are supposed to have any instruments perfectly in tune even when they have moved from one area of temperature or humidity to another.

They should never gather their thoughts before launching into a song or tune and definitely never try to introduce their contribution.

If they do use written song words or music they should have it ready for their turn to start.

Oh and they should never look up anything during the evening.

So that means if you are new and nervous don't bother going. If you have had a head injury that affected your memory stay at home,and if you are older and your memory is starting to fail don't even bother getting out of bed.

The welcoming face of folk music.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,andiliqueur
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 03:43 AM

Also,the thicker the folder the more songs they don't know!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,andiliqueur
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 03:41 AM

Oh yes Acorn 4. They are the worst!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 03:33 AM

What I find irritating is those who persistently thumb through their folders while other are singing and playing.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 01:30 AM

I go to Mass twice every Sunday, and I still can't recite the friggin' Nicene Creed from memory. And the Apostles' Creed, which we use sometimes, is even tougher. They're very similar to each other, and we've had at least two "official" translations of each in my lifetime. Now, I can remember it in Latin, especially if I sing it, because I've known only one version of the Creed in Latin. But if I try it in English without a book, I get confused.

We had a priest who chastised the congregation for stumbling on the Apostles' Creed. I was ready to stand up in front of the congregation and explain how the priest had his head up his ass, but I restrained myself. I told him privately later that I thought he was wrong...

Sometimes, you just can't get the lyrics straight unless you get a little help from a piece of paper.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 01:00 AM

Thank you for that Joe. bob

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 12:38 AM

Some of us who sing from hymnals or sheet music, are actually pretty good singers - and we can sing quite well using a lyrics aid and feel more confident doing so. Or maybe we want to try something new, outside or the twenty or thirty songs in our usual repertoire. Or maybe we've witnessed the agonizing moments when singers forget their lyrics and the audience waits uneasily for them to remember.

And yes, many of those who use books are pretty awful singers - but I think that's more because of their ability, not their state of preparation. I've been at camps and singarounds where people pull out the Blue Book and struggle through a song - but that's usually because singing is a struggle for them, and they're trying their best to fit in. Maybe they'll never get any better - but at least they're trying.

You who condemn other singers may have all sorts of rationalizations in your heart to convince yourself that it's really the other person's fault that he/she doesn't fit your image of a suitable singer. But you're lying to yourselves. You're simply being unkind and exclusionary, closing the door to would-be singers because you think them unworthy.

No wonder people don't sing any more. If they try, they're going to have to endure some really awful scrutiny until they finally pass muster and earn the right to be snooty and judgmental themselves.

Most people think I'm a very good singer, and I certainly think I've earned a reputation as a song researcher. But there are music gatherings I avoid because they're just too damn judgmental. I sing to have a good time, not to face judgment from snooty singers.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 11:38 PM

I must be the odd one out. I always enjoy it if the singer introduces the song and explains its significance to him or her, and how they come upon the song.

I also think if you want other people to join in with their instruments you should tell the company what key you are going to try and sing and play in.

after all we are 'folks'. our relationship with each other is not a 'given'. if you wish to astonish the world with a tour deforce that will amaze and mystify -fuck off into the desert and sing to the cacti.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 11:06 PM

Related threads:

Performers' showcase etiquette (7)
Session etiquette solutions please (57)
Concert Etiquette (69)
'Rules' for group singing (5)
Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat? (69)
Singaround etiquette (64)
Singaround Etiquette (18)
Singaround etiquette ? (70)
Impromptu open mike etiquette (6)
Weird open mike etiquette (85)
Hoot Etiquette (76)
Jam Etiquette (49)
Rules of the Session (20)
Talking and other session etiquette (37)
Session Etiquette (24)
Festival workshop etiquette question (12)
Music Etiquette Thought For The Day (33)
Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies (74)
Etiquette question #2 (44)
Etiquette question (106)
Music etiquette: the answer (19)
Etiquette for slow-jams (6)

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: vectis
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 10:47 PM

If you have to use a book or sheet, get the thing out and set up before it is your turn. If you need a specific note take a tuner with you, if you haven't got a tuner ask some one to play an A (or whatever) for you and launch.

One man's long introduction/setup is another man's song.

I think farting around is attention seeking and a bloody pain in the arse.

Off hobby horse and calm again. Got coat too...

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,bardan
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 10:34 PM

Well, it could be shyness. Or they might be waiting for the room to quieten down. Making sure they remember the lyrics in that tricky verse. Trying to find a key that works. I've almost never sang at a singaround and I don't use sheet music or lyric sheets, but when called on to sing I often take a couple of minutes to choose a song that fits, remind myself of the lyrics, find a good key, (especially if I know someone else might come in with a harmony or there's backer and I don't want to force them into accompanying a song in f sharp minor or whatever) and so-on. Hopefully it's worth the wait. If it isn't then people should really stop asking me to sing.

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 09:35 PM

Joe ... with GREAT RESPECT ... I wouldn't use the term "inferior" but rather "ill prepared" CHEERS, bob

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 09:14 PM

If you want to be at a song circle that welcomes people who are trying to get over a fear of singing in public, you will enjoy yourself more if you can accept their need to have written lyrics. I would rather that people use a lyric sheet than freeze in the middle of a song. Choral groups use written lyrics; people use hymnals in church; and I have seen some seasoned professional performers use lyric/music sheets, but I won't name names!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 08:55 PM

I think some people need to take a moment to get composed, and to get the tune straight in their heads. They may seem to be fooling with other things, but that's just a cover for getting their composure. This is especially true of a cappella singers. I find if I rush too much to start a song, I often botch the melody and sing something strange for the first verse.
Some say I sing something strange for every verse.
Patience, Jack, patience....
As for books, some of us feel more confident if we have them (even though we may not look at them), and we apologize to those who think us inferior.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 08:27 PM

Over here in the Seattle, Washington (USA) area, I have found the perfect solution that works for ME. This might not work for you, but it sure works for ME. I simply won't attend any "sing-a-round event" that allows the use of books. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,GUEST: Lowly Strung
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 08:02 PM

I agree about the nuisance of delays. There are some who don't prepare and some who do. I expect the fear of losing members, in a climate when clubs can't afford to lose even their crap performers, is part of the issue for organizers and MCs, etc. And, they can't risk being seen as harsh on people who probably aren't trying to inflict a probem on others: that's part of the democratic-ness that the folk-world values. Clearly, JC doesn't see the solution as "just b----y well tell them" (unless he DOES, but he's not gonna enact it!!)
As for instruments, while you can tune some to "close enough for folk" levels, you can't easily tune perfectly while others are performing; if you leave the playing-space to do so, you miss part of the previous song (and potentially create a disturbance by getting up and moving out) but others' songs might be what you've gone along to hear: that's part and parcel of a singaround.
I favour being upfront and telling the offender on the quiet: thay're not going to slap you round the face, nor raise the issue aloud with the rest of the room, in case the room disagrees with them!

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 07:51 PM

Nerves.... or the need to allow an audience to settle down.

Regards

p.s. More constructively: I can happily understand "classical" singers working from a sheet but find it hard to understand its use in a traditional or quasi-traditional context. The least such a performer should do is suggest that listeners close their eyes...

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 07:43 PM

It isn't possible to tune all instruments in advance, in spite of all the "once you eventually get the bloody thing in tune I'll have it welded for you" jokes. It Is possible to get in the ball park though, although the incessant tuners have to take the poor bloody fixed-pitch guys into account (we do exist, you know). As for stands...really? If I can learn all the tunes, why can't you learn all the words?

Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 07:06 PM

I don't suppose we will ever eliminate the time wasting, but it would certainly be thoughtful, especially at busy singarounds, if the instruments were already tuned and the song on the stand ready to go.

Subject: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 06:06 PM

This was mentioned in passing in a thread on Rise Up Singing: singers who use books or folders can take a very long time to get started when their turn comes in a singaround. I find this very frustrating. Ask me to play or sing something and I can be off within a second; if I was going to pick something from a book, the delay caused by finding it would only be seconds rather than minutes. And I don't add even more delay mumbling about how I haven't played or sung this in years.

The fatter the book or folder the singer carries around, the worse the problem is. You'd think it should be the opposite: if you've got a folder two inches thick you should be able to find something that suits the moment within a few pages of where you open it.

I don't go to singarounds to spend the evening watching somebody trying to find their chord chart.

Has anybody had any success in remedying this sort of dithering around? You don't get it in notation-free tune sessions, but it isn't just a problem of dependence on paper; a lot of singers seem to have a badly indexed and blurrily printed folder in their brains and need to talk their way through accessing it for longer than it takes to sing the song.