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Tech: Print Music

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Gypsy 06 Jun 04 - 11:49 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Jun 04 - 05:32 AM
Shanghaiceltic 06 Jun 04 - 01:49 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Jun 04 - 06:58 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Jun 04 - 03:40 PM
Shanghaiceltic 04 Jun 04 - 09:34 PM
JohnInKansas 04 Jun 04 - 11:30 AM
wysiwyg 04 Jun 04 - 10:03 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM
pavane 04 Jun 04 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,MCP 04 Jun 04 - 06:59 AM
JohnInKansas 04 Jun 04 - 06:09 AM
Shanghaiceltic 04 Jun 04 - 05:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: Gypsy
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 11:49 PM

Much as i like the program, it isn't really intuitive. READ the book. Will make your life much easier. Another way to get rid of excess measures......highlight measure, go to "measure" in the tool bar, and hit delete. You can draw a box round all the unwanted measures, and delete simultaneously as well, rather than each by each.

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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 05:32 AM

Shanghaiceltic -

You can tweak the pickup bar pretty easily, but I don't think (without looking it up) that you'll be able to get rid of the rests in the final measure of a "part" (without inserting a visible change in time signature, perhaps). If you only want to write the "A" part of a tune, you could hide the rests, as mentioned above, but they'll still be there in the playback.

Some of the more sophisticated programs would let you put a change in time signature in and "hide" it so it doesn't display or print, but I don't believe that Print Music is quite that good.

There's another thread that's been up recently on "writing scores" or some such where the problem of being able to "put two tunes on the same page" was being discussed. If you hide the rests at the end of one "part" you're - effectively - starting a second tune when you go into the "B" part, and there are relatively few (mostly expensive) programs that will let you do that.

There's always hope - until you've finished reading the whole instruction book - and even then you might find something they forgot to mention.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 01:49 AM


Many thanks. I have used the wee train and yes you can change the print format but as you correctly state in the playback mode the rests are still there. I will have a good play with the programme and see if I can tweek it some more by playing with the time signatures on the pickup and final bar.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 06:58 PM

Well put, JiK!

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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 03:40 PM

In a normal music score the pickup bar and final bar should add up to the value of the time signature.

(A very good, and concise description – I'll probably steal it.)

What's "normal" depends on the "culture" in which one lives.

In traditional, folk, and bluegrass, it's common to write a "part" as something that stands by itself. Tunes typically have an "A" part and a "B" part, sometimes more, and it's left up to the players to decide whether to play an A A B B or A B A B sequence. The pickup notes are "tacked on" to the front of each part, and the ending measure in each part is left "incomplete" so that you can use the "leftover beats" in the last measure to insert the pickpup notes for the next phrase.

In more "formal" notation, as would be used for orchestral, choral, most country western, and much blues and jazz (i.e. for "formally published" music), the first pickup measure is the only one that's allowed to have less than the number of "beats" defined by the time signature. The last measure of the first (A?) part is labelled as the "first ending" and is "completed" by writing in the "pickup notes" for the phrase that is to follow. If you're to play an A A sequence, the pickup notes that "complete" the last measure of the "first ending" would usually be the same ones as in the "pickup measure" back at the beginning. A separate "second ending" measure includes different pickup notes for the phrase/part that is intended to follow after the repeat. In an A A B sequence, the "pickup notes" that finish the "second ending" would be the "pickup measure" for the B part.

"Normal" for most people who've been "school trained" in music would be the "formal" kind of layout, and the "folk" layout that you're used to would be considered a variation. (Some would say "deviation.")

Actually, the "folk method" has distinct advantages for the kinds of music where it's commonly used, since it leaves the choice of "part sequences" up to the players. The "formal" layout specifies one specific order that's not easily varied in a session.

Print Music "accidentally" dictates using the "formal" layout, probably not because it's written by a "bunch of academic twits" who think that's the only way to do it, but because the software "core" of the program is pulled out of a MIDI sequencing program, and the MIDI playback method that's contained in the program cannot have any gaps in the MIDI instruction sequence. The "formal" format that it uses makes all the decisions about part sequence in order to let them use a "simple" playback program.

Print Music is a fairly decent program, and relatively cheap, so it's a good choice for simple scoring; but it's not a very satisfying choice for more complex scores – or if you need that one simple variation it doesn't offer. I haven't used it much simply because it seems to keep "coming up just a little short" for things I've wanted to do; but I have to confess that I haven't read the whole manual to see whether it can do some of the less obvious ones. I've used it just enough to see that the people who wrote the program have "a different mind-set" than I prefer in a scoring program, but SWMBO (LiK) uses it quite a lot – and it seems to suit her.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 09:34 PM

In a normal music score the pickup bar and final bar should add up to the value of the time signature. This is what is not happening and Print Music inserts rests to 'correct' the time.

It surprised me as you would have thought a music program would take this into account without lots of tweeking.

I will try all of your suggestions. Thanks

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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:30 AM

It appears that Shanghaiceltic is going to have to clarify his problem a little. We seem to be getting more answers here than there were questions.

My first thought was that he's getting extra rests in pickup measures and turnaround measures; but re-looking at the original post my impression was it's just the "extra" blank measures.

When Print Music opens a new score, it fills the page with blank measures, and it was not "intuitive" for me to see how to remove the extras. The "key" is apparently to know that the measures must be selected before they can be deleted - and that the cutesy little choo-choo train is the "selector." The Backspace key to remove the content of a selected measure, vs the Delete key to remove the measure itself might have occured to me if I'd floundered around with it a bit, since a few other programs have similar features; but checking the manual that comes with the program did - in this rare case - turn out to be more efficient than just guessing and punching buttons (or icons).

The handling of repeats and endings in Print Music borders on "bizarre," but does make some sense if you assume that the program was written by MIDI fanatics rather than by musicians(?). You can specify a partial measure for a "pickup" before the first opening repeat bar, and the rests there will go away. The "repeat opening" bar is only a "text notation," and Print Music doesn't recognize it for playback purposes. When you enter the "ending repeat bar," you have to give it "properties" that include specifying a "target measure" (by measure number) to go back to to continue playback.

The "last measure" of the "first time through" - i.e. the measure that contains the "end repeat bar," must be a full measure. You pad it out by including any "pickup notes" for the phrase that is to follow, and target the first full measure in the phrase that's to be repeated - omitting any pickup measure at the beginning of the piece in the repeat.

If you just hide the extra rests the playback will still "play" them, so your "turnaround" between phrases will be off in the playback. Hiding them may be the only way to get a print of the tune in the form - with partial measures at both beginning and end of a repeated phrase - that's often used in folk (and bluegrass) tune notation.

The "structure" of the score produced by Print Music seems to be based on making playback (MIDI) easy, rather than on making the printed notation flexible.

The manual is fairly well written, and is only 323 pages long, so ....

Actually the index and search functions in the manual seem to be good enough that you shouldn't have to rtfm the whole thing, but the controls and settings I've looked at are sufficiently "unintuitive" to suggest being familiar with it so you can look things up.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:03 AM

Can you put a repeat where it will cycle the repetitions the way you want? If not, you can probably copy-paste to create the flow you want.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 09:13 AM

Printed 'sheet music' SHOULD always have the correct number of full beats as per the time signature in a bar - the theory says so!

As for what you want to do, that involves manipulating the software you are using.

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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 07:49 AM

From a technical point of view (MIDI), MIDI files should start with a short period, maybe one bar, of silence, to allow all the control settings to take effect. Also, unless you have a couple of rests at the end of the music, the finish will sound too abrupt.

My program puts these in automatically, so maybe other programs do as well.

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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:59 AM

If you're referring to rests in a pickup measure which is shorter than the normal measure length, you need to set the length of the pickup measure. I don't use Print Music (I do have a copy somewhere but not loaded), but in Finale Guitar that's done by selecting the Pickup Measure command (Options/Document Settings/Pickup Measure) and setting that to the length you require for the pickup measure - the suplus leading rests will disappear.

To hide rest in the final bar you can use the Speedy Entry tool, select the final bar with it, position the cursor on the rest to select it and press the letter O or H to hide it. (Again I'm assuming the same facility is available in Print Music as in Finale Guitar. If not look for Hiding notes and rests in the help index to do this).


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Subject: RE: Tech: Print Music
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:09 AM

I havent' used Print Music much, but:

You should have a "User's Manual" installed with it, that will come up if you click Help in Print Music. Select the Users Manual, which is a .pdf file. You can use "Edit - Find" in the Manual to search, and most of the index is linked to "jump" you to the applicable page.

To delete a measure you have to select it with the "Mass Mover" tool - looks like a little train engine. Click on the engine to get the tool, select the measure(s) you want to get rid of, and then -
a) to delete the notes and rests in the measure so that you can put something else in, hit the Backspace button.
b) to delete the measure entirely, and remove it from the score, hit the Delete key.

Or so it says...


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Subject: Tech: Print Music
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:06 AM

I got myself a copy of print music to help with creating midi's and notated sheet music to help me learn other instruments.

The problem I have is that even though I have selected a time signature the opeening and closing bars are often filled with rests which I cannot seem to eliminate. Naturaly the opening and closing bars total are in acocrdance with the time signature entered.

Any ideas how to edit this out? When the tune is played back as a midi you always get the silence as the scroll line hits the rests.

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