BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:28 AM

"This is a known phenomenon in countries where it is not acceptable."

Excuse the liberty MtheGM, I know what you meant, but I thought I should clarify your meaning as follows:

This is a known phenomenon in countries where it is not accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:04 AM

Can't believe this for/against the death penalty for homosexuality is still running.
Professor Challenger was right - dinosaurs still do walk the earth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:59 AM

When my wife and I worked in China in the late 1980s, a Chinese colleague [female] similarly assured us that there was no homosexuality in China. This is a known phenomenon in countries where it is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

Penny,

"the claim that there are homosexuals actively proselytising in Uganda is very scarey"

The claim that there is an axe murderer hiding behind your computer desk is scarey.

But it has nothing to do with reality.


Besides which, how does a homosexual proseletyze?


'Roll up roll up - people of uganda have you considered homosexuality?'


Or maybe its "alright darling, fancy a shag?"


And what are we assuming about the nationality of the homosexual doing the proseletyzing?


Is he from Europe or Africa?


I once spent some time in Ghana, and while I lived there I stayed at the lavish home of a very powerful guy who tendered privately for infrastructure regeneration projects throughout Africa.


He pontificated at length on many subjects, but one of his hoobby horses was the idea that homosexuality was a european import to Africa that had never previously existed there.


This is obviously utter bollocks. They just keep a very very low profile.


It is basically the same view expressed in the "lively" article above.


I first heard it in 2008 so it is an OLD myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM

Ok, but be warned GfS will be after you at the hour when their coffin lid creaks open & they rise to stalk the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

Actually, I realise I wasn't clear about who I was referring to - it was Scott Lively's piece that had reasonable writing in it.

I recognise the attitude and agenda of GfS. I never describe users of caps as reasonable. Or those who claim to represent sanity.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

Penny, I'm not sure whether you're aware of GfS' track record. S/he is virulently, implacably hostile to any even vaguely pro-gay comments or outlooks. You'll be wasting your time trying to put rational arguments, as her/his sole reason for contributing to threads like this one is to parade her/his frighteningly entrenched and vindictive loathing of homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:58 AM

I think that, in an apparently reasonably written piece, given the author's obvious bias, the claim that there are homosexuals actively proselytising in Uganda is very scarey.

If it is true, it is scarey, and needs evidence and opposition. If it is false, it is scarey, and needs exposing as false.

None of the homosexuals I know have behaviours like this. Small sample, I know.

What is described seems more like the attested behaviour of paedophiles targeting either males or females, and regarding non-Western areas as places for predation.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 12:41 AM

Not at all. Don, I knew what she was saying...she wanted us to believe only parts of the post, and to have an implied bias against the author, who hasn't said anything scary in the post, at all...nor has anything been shown to convince even the most impartial observer that Lively was speaking a lie, or anything whatsoever, that is unfair...and I know what 'projection' is, Don....stop projecting!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

I may be mistaken (Ebbie can correct me if I am) but it appears to me that GfS missed the point that Ebbie was making.

I believe Scott Lively of the "Pro-Family Resource Center" is the "scary person" she is referring to. Lively is spreading a lot of pretty vicious anti-homosexual propaganda, and GfS is underscoring and endorsing it.

I believe that the heinous motives that GfS ascribes to homosexuals and to those whom s/he considers to be promoters of homosexuality speaks volumes about him/her.

Among psychiatrists, that's called "projection," counselor.

Physician, heal thyself!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:34 AM

I have a concern about this issue as a hidden driver behind a new news item about events in Uganda. Suddenly it is news that in that country there is a considerable trade in human - usually child - sacrifice in order to gain benefits from traditional spirits or deities.

Now I don't like that, in exactly the same way that I don't like the imposition of penalties, including death, on homosexuals.

But this has been going on some time without notice being taken. So why has it surfaced as an issue now?

And polygamy is in the news, too. But that's all right, because it is traditional.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM

"What right do we Westerners have to impose our "enlightened" views on African culture?"

The civil rights campaign seeks to impose nothing on anyone.

It seeks to remove impositions from a group who are denied the same civil rights as evryone else.

I don't understand why the attempt to protect people from discrimination is painted as a fictional attempt to 'convert' people.

This is the same misconception that leads people to talk about the "promotion" of homosexuality.

Such a promotion does not exist.

What does exist is the refusal to allow an increasingly small minority of heterosexuals to discriminate against homosexuals and subject them to violence and lives of shame and misery.

We did not accept Apartheid in south Africa.

Should we have allowed apartheid on the basis that it was south Africas internal affairs?

What about the human rights of citizens of Zimbabwe today?

In particular opponents of Mugabe?

Should we accept that African culture is just that way and we are wrong to impose our values on Zimbabweans?

Why is wishing to protect the human right of homosexuals different to protecting the human rights of political dissidents?

Besides which, if we do decide that we are wrong to "impose" our values, then what are we saying about our view of Africans?

Do we imply that we need to accept that Africans are just different and that we shouldn't expect people like Mugabe or Idi Amin to comply with our western dogma of human rights?

Does it follow that the rulers under Apartheid were right to segregate their society in recognition of these differences.

Joe, your rationale opens up a very dangerous can of worms.

And the answer to the questions I have asked above is a very resounding NO!.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:26 AM

I had sworn not to enter this thread again, as everything useful had been said, and it was only been kept alive, primarily, by the incessant bigoted crowing of GfS.

Joe's point does reqire a response, I feel, so here are three thoughts.

(a) The person to taled to, Joe, is not just from Africa but also, as you say, a priest. His views about African attitudes to sexuality are thus filtered through a religious conditioning that also represents a Western 'imposition' on to African culture; your question, Joe, about the relationship between Western & African cultures also needs to bear in mind that Christianity is also an 'import', and one intimately connected with colonialism.

(b) Even though almost all Anglo/Americans, me in this post included, do it, it is risky to speak about 'African' culture or attitudes or beliefs. The continent of Africa contains vast numbers of cultures and their beliefs are not collapsible into a single 'African' viewpoint. Is your priest friend fully knowledgeable about every culture in every epoch on that continent ?('Western' and 'European' are also risky generlisations, of course.)

(c) Whatever we think about this, in recent decades the models of homosexual identity developed in Western cultures have become influential in non-Western cultures (this applies not just to the African context). Those who wish to live their lives as people identifying as 'gay' can look to Western cultures and see templates to aspire towards. I don't deny that this causes conflict, in some cases, with longer-established value systems (by which I emphatically do NOT mean Christianity). But we can't turn the clock back and say to those people 'bad luck, you have to give up your hopes of living in a particular way because of your cultural background'.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:51 AM

I believe in the rights of homosexuals, but there are things I wonder about. I tried to convince my Rwandan priest friend that homosexual marriage wasn't such a bad idea, and he got quite distressed. He says there is a deep-seated taboo against homosexuality in most parts of Africa, that it isn't acceptable in any way. Now, my friend is very tolerant about most things, but he just couldn't imagine homosexuality being acceptable.

What right do we Westerners have to impose our "enlightened" views on African culture? Yes, discrimination against homosexuals is an injustice, but how far are we allowed to interfere with other cultures? As I understand it, the taboos against homosexuality existed in Africa long before Christianity arrived there.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:47 PM

Ebbie:"There are few things as scary as people who are convinced they are right."

From Ebbie's Post:"It should be no surprise, therefore, that modern Ugandans are very unhappy that homosexual political activists from Europe and the United States are working aggressively to re-homosexualize their nation. Ugandan citizens report a growing number of foreign homosexual men coming to their country to turn desperately poor young men from the slums into their personal houseboys, and that some girls in public schools have being paid to recruit others into lesbianism."

Ebbie, you are absolutely correct...Great post!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

There are few things as scary as people who are convinced they are right.

Scott Lively

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:50 AM

Corruption and repression — including violence against women and children and abuse of prisoners — are rife in Uganda. According to The Times's Jeffrey Gettleman, officially sanctioned homophobia is particularly acute. Gay Ugandans are tormented with beatings, blackmail, death threats and what has been described as "correctional rape."

The government's venom is chilling: "Homosexuals can forget about human rights," James Nsaba Buturo, who holds the cynically titled position of minister of ethics and integrity, said recently.

What makes this even worse is that three American evangelical Christians, whose teachings about "curing" gays and lesbians have been widely discredited in the United States, helped feed this hatred. Scott Lively, Caleb Lee Brundidge and Don Schmierer gave a series of talks in Uganda last March to thousands of police officers, teachers and politicians in which, according to participants and audio recordings, they claimed that gays and lesbians are a threat to Bible-based family values.

Now the three Americans are saying they had no intention of provoking the anger that, just one month later, led to the introduction of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009. You can't preach hate and not accept responsibility for the way that hate is manifested.

We don't have much hope that they will atone for their acts. But right now the American government, and others, should make clear to Uganda that if this legislation becomes law, it will lose millions of dollars in foreign aid and be shunned globally. NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guiest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM

olddude:
"DON'T FEED TROLLS PLEASE"

You're right, I won't!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:46 PM

DON'T FEED TROLLS PLEASE

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

Some are from birth, something they got from the mother....we can admit that....
Though some, it is not 'genetic'....we can admit that.
Some, 'acquire' it along the way....we can admit that.
Most likely, they seek out others, who have the same inclinations...we can admit that.
Sometimes, they spread disease, by what they do, and some are more careful....we can admit that.
Most don't like to hear that it is, or maybe 'wrong'...we can admit that.
Most think it feels better, than without....we can admit that.
Most of those who 'acquired' it along the way, are more defensive about it, than those who are born 'with the need'....we can admit that.
Most have to hide, and be secretive about it...though it usually shows through...we can see that.
Many feel they can't change....we can see that.
Many want government programs to help them with the health issues...we can admit that.
Many think that it is a civil rights issue, they can be allowed to do it, if they want....we can see that.
Many have advocates to support that issue...we can see that.
Many think it is not a detriment to society at large, so don't feel they should be looked down upon....we can see that.
Many feel that as long as they are doing it, they should be able to have families, as if it didn't matter....we can admit that.
Many think it makes them liberated, and higher than others...we can see that.
Some think they can see more onto a wider spectrum of things, so it makes them more artistic....we can see that.
Some actually think they are more intelligent, because of it...we can see that.
Many don't see any reason to stop, and feel that being not accepted because of it makes them an exclusive minority.......we can admit that.....
So what's all the fuss????
I mean why all the 'discrimination' about it all??
They are as wise as the next person, aren't they???...
So wise, that they aren't 'prejudiced' are they???
They are open minded about it, and other things aren't they??
Again, why all the fuss???....I mean if they want to do it, why not???
Oh you wise and 'hip' ones.....
I'm talking about heroin addicts.....any preconceived similarities, must be just in YOUR head!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:42 PM

Game, set, and match.

Case closed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:47 PM

""just scrolling through and realized that Don T said a lot of what I just said further up the page...didn't see Ake admitting anything though.""

No!....And you won't see any admissions in the future, either.

Ake has three hard wired postures:-

1. He fawns all over everyone who agrees with him (yes, both of them), congratulating them on their superior intellect and insight.

2. He ignores all questions which he finds impossible to answer in a manner which supports his prejudice.

3. Those who persistently expose the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of his arguments, he categorises as deluded idiots, promoters of whatever he happens to be decrying at the time, or liberal fascists, whatever that is.

He is consistently biased, mistaken, and blinded by his prejudice, but he is never, never, wrong!......According to him, that is.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

just scrolling through and realized that Don T said a lot of what I just said further up the page...didn't see Ake admitting anything though.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:27 PM

of cours ehtinking purely of safe sex here...do you think the high levels of STIs in homosexuals could be because they don;t have the worry of pregnancy? I mean if you don;t have to use protection to prevent an unwanted pregnancy it's not as high on the list. Or maybe it's just that men sleep around more and in a hpomosexual paring there isn;t a woman there gonna flip out about not using protection cos she doens;t want to get pregnant? Did it occur to you that perhaps if hetero couples weren;t so concerned about pregnancy the levels of STIs would sky rocket?
Also are you aware of the HIV/AIDS levels in some areas of Africa? The colossal numbers of AIDS orphans? You don't get orphans from homosexual pairings obviously. So what does that tell you about the spread of STIs there?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Elspeth
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 07:19 PM

"Rights are conditional on health psychiatric considerations and homosexuality at the moment contravenes both these considerations."

Donuel and the others are right. sorry Ake, rights are not conditional. And even if they were it is not homosexuality that contravenes botht hese conditions. A person just _is_ homosexual, that doesn;t automatically give them health issues. Some of their _personal_ choices may lead them to have health issues but that is on an induvidual basis the same as it is for any other part of society. Homosexuality is just something people are. It's not a group like...a particular church group or...vegans. lets take vegans! I know several Vegans who have serious eating issues because they don;t know how to feed themselves a properly balenced diet. Are we supposed with hold their rights because their private life might cause some health issues for them? No, of course not. If we provide rights for people who create their own issues why on earth should we not for people who just happen to be gay and hence associated with STIs? It's not a club! It's not a label that gives you the right to deny their rights! It's just that they happent to prefer people of their own gender. It's irrelevant. You can;t start taking away rights because you think someone has chosen an unhealthy lifestyle. That goes for gay and straight, people who stuff themselves with junk, fat people, skinny models, every teenage boy that sleeps around etc etc. or...say you had a hereditary disease would you think it fair for them to ban you from marriage and sex because of the risk of it being passed on? No. Of course you wouldn't. because, it's totally irrelevant!

Also, do you think STIs and other health issues are that much more prevelant in homosexuals? Why do you think that?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:34 PM

With so many quotes from others in each others posts I lost track of who is psychotic or sadistic or both.

I do know that the Nazi's and Soviets had wonderful mental institutions and that 'health psychiatric considerations' were crafted to prove that Jews were sub human. The discovery/invention of new kinds of perversion came in very handy for the State to imprison, enslave or destroy the lives of "undesirables".

The uptight positions taken might reflect personal reflections or inner demons that became menacing. Relax, no one gives a shit.

I support civil rights.

Take them away from even one group only and you have destroyed civil rights. Its like having the freedom of speech ... except of course for Paul Burke,


or Bill D and John from Kansas and others like 999 to be named later ... like the entire state of Alaska and...

you see now? It is no longer a freedom of speech.
Same with Civil Rights. Yep it will even include people you won't like... which for some people is a lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 08:37 PM

"You just get more and more and weird Ake, and more and more strident with your fatally flawed concepts of both homosexuality and medicine."

Not to mention his concept of civil rights.

He trys to suggest that denying homosexuals their rights constitutes caring for them ...

... and he thinks that losing an argument constitutes a threat to his freedom of speech.

But at least he has admitted that he believes homosexuals should not have the same rights as us.

It serves as useful further evidence of the truth of his position.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:07 PM

""A dozen times I have made the argument that this is not the case and provided facts to prove it. Rights are conditional on health psychiatric considerations and homosexuality at the moment contravenes both these considerations.""

So now, as well as having a built in propensity for paedophilia, they are all disease ridden nutcases who should not be allowed access to the same rights as the rest of the population.

You just get more and more and weird Ake, and more and more strident with your fatally flawed concepts of both homosexuality and medicine.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 10:27 AM

Wesley, you may well have a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 10:25 AM

Death penalty for homosexuals?

You might just ask them to read all 745 posts to this thread a few times. That should do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:45 PM

Ake, my post at 26 Dec 09 - 06:41 p.m. is pretty much a summation of everything I have been arguing all along.

And I did not say all sexual minorities. I do not condone pedophilia, either from homosexuals or heterosexuals. But there are already laws on the books covering that ("Age of consent").

And as to Ake's remark about "all the shit" I post—did you take note of that remark, GUEST,999?

Ake, both you and GfS use the tactic of misrepresenting what those with whom you disagree say and then attacking them on the basis of your misrepresentation—just as you did there, in your most recent post. That's one of the more transparent fallacies and it's been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, but you keep using it.

I do not believe your protestations of caring for health and welfare of male homosexuals. If you really cared, you wouldn't be trying to lock them into a life of promiscuity by denying them a perfectly viable alternative.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:14 PM

Despite all the shit you post Don.....your only arugment amounts the belief that all sexual minorities should be treated equally.

A dozen times I have made the argument that this is not the case and provided facts to prove it. Rights are conditional on health psychiatric considerations and homosexuality at the moment contravenes both these considerations.

You really make no attempt to argue a case, but rely on the usual abuse about homophobes(a tactic that Smedley has called into question).....and the sympathy vote from the intellectually challenged.
You have a nerve to attack 999 about his posting style, 999 has proved his open mindedness on this thread, as well as his wit and humour.
Something sadly lacking in yourself or your sidekick

Oh and by the way, the next time you dramatically announce "you're out of here!!" or "Don Firth has left the building"....for fuck sake don't disappoint everybody!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:03 PM

I don't think so, 999. I'm still my sweet, serene self.

I do believe sincerely in civil rights for everyone, and when someone wants to limit the civil rights of a minority group, I see nothing wrong with opposing that attempted limitation strenuously. There are quite a number of well-known historical figures who felt the same way. Most of them were villified at the time, but history has recorded them as "the good guys."

Incidentally, those who single out specific groups and attempt to either oppress them or limit their civil rights (same thing, really) are call "bigots." Dictionary definition. I don't define anyone as a bigot. They define themselves by what the do and say.

Now, if you go back through the threads, both this one and the Prop. 8 thread, I think you'll discover that I most certainly didn't start the name-calling, and I have never impugned the intelligence of someone with whom I did not agree. GfS and Ake do that on a regular basis, calling me and others "stupid" and "knee-jerkers" and accusing us of being "liberal fascists."

So I'd suggest that you do a little research before you start popping off at someone.

Now—do you actually have anything of substance to add to the discussion, or is joining in the personal abuse your reason for being here?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 07:10 PM

Do you have any idea how nasty you have become, Don. It was a joy to read your writing and see you express your thoughts just a while back. Lately, you've become a miserable old fart. Dictatorial, pissy, and fuckin' rude. This I tell you because someone has to let you know, not because you 'demanded' an accounting. I owe you NOTHING! So, either lighten up or get stuffed, and it's not up to you to ask why I post what I did. You used to be smart enough to have a sense of humour and verve. You lost that quality somewhere. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM

Just curious, GUEST,999. Do you have anything to say, or are you just pissing in the punchbowl?

Don Firth (has left the buiding)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999--in the spirit of the season . . . .
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Deck the halls with boughs of holly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Tis the season to be jolly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Don we now our gay apparel,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

See the blazing Yule before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Strike the harp and join the chorus.
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Follow me in merry measure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
While I tell of Yule tide treasure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Fast away the old year passes,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Hail the new, ye lads and lasses,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Sing we joyous, all together,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Heedless of the wind and weather,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

GfS, at 26 Dec 09 - 06:41 p.m., I posted a reasonable summation of the whole discussion, including objective answers (all verifiable to anyone who cares to look) to the issues that you and Ake keep raising, and you blew right by it without comment and went right back to the same assertions you've been making since the Prop. 8 thread. I'm afraid it's you who doesn't answer questions or issues raised.

When you called for a calm, well-reasoned and civil discussion, you just reasserted the same arguments you've been using all along, and when you got the same refutations, you simply returned to responding abusively—as you did before.

'Round and a'round she goes. . . .

I think it's probably time for Ake to come in and spell you. But then, he does the same thing.

I'm getting bloody bored with this!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM

GfS

"Anyone out there capable of the concept of 'considering'?..outside of yourself?"

You've had this said to you many times in your life haven't you.

And you haven't really ever understood it, but you know it has a powerful meaning, so you use it from time to time as a diversion tactic when all else are failing.

If you were able to be considerate you would not talk about smedley as if he were a lab rat. You would be aware that he is human and you would have some empathy for his context.

If you were not totally self absorbed and if you didn't exist in a 'room full of mirrors' you would see how preposterous your posturing as some kind of Phd Student with a specialization in sexuality was.

As it is, any kind of attention is good for you and making 'controversial' statements and being a 'maverick' are the best ways you know of getting more.

In fact, your apperent 'radical' and 'edgy' style is like ether. It evaporates and disappears in the blink of an eye, which is why you think you have to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

Real substance scares you. You are afraid that you might not be able to understand it on one hand, and on the other hand you are afraid of what you will find out about yourself if you do understand it.

I see you as a pinball pinging around the mudcat having no lasting impact on anyone and but being happy as long as your existence is acknowledged.

You get most satisfaction when one of the grumpy old men shakes his fists at you and you are most likely to attack the ones who have compassion for you and have the patience to engage with you.

I have neither particularly, but I don't mind giving you the odd little theatrical fist shake from time to time if thats what you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

They're Rioting in Africa (The Merry Minuet)
(Sheldon Harnick)

Intro:
    There are days in my life when everything is dreary
    I grow pessimistic, sad and world weary.
    But when I'm tearful and fearfully upset
    I always sing this merry little minuet:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much

But we can be grateful
And thankful and proud
That man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud

And we know for certain
That some happy day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM

My posts to this thread have been the most rude I've ever made anywhere..

I do apologise for being offensive to any individuals I've been personally rude too. I don't like being offensive to people. Though sometimes it happens, and I do regret that (yes, honestly).

I'm afraid these threads tend to make me very angry, so sometimes I blurt out what I'm feeling. Especially as I find so much of these threads are a complete joke! Quite frankly, if it were up to me I'd have "discussions" like this banned as I find them so offensive. So what can one do but laugh & take the piss?

In any event - so refreshing to hear speak of same sex LOVE rather than the incessant stuff about 'gay sex viruses'. LOVE is magical and real and it happens between boys and girls in all kinds of combinations.

And good for anyone that finds it wherever they find it.
Happy Xmas all :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM

Like I just said, GfS. Others beside me have attempted to have a reasonable discussion with you, but you can't seem to refrain from getting snotty when it's not going your way.

I've been around awhile, GfS, and I've had lots of discussions with lots of people on lots of subjects. From debate in high school to philosophy and logic classes in college, to many discussions over a coffee or a beer with lots of intelligent, well-informed people (including a few you may have heard of). I've heard it all before.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM

Hey Don, we cross posted. If you read my earlier posts, you might have flashed that I had mistaken Don.T's 'off our train of thought' post, for yours. Sorry. Don't get thy knickers in a twist. We were doing fine. What questions were you referring to?.. and while posting, respond to mine as well....this CAN turn around...again to something a bit more informative!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

Jeez!....Here we are back again to the 'Bigot', 'Homophobes', 'Anti Gay Bigots', and 'Haters'...and the like. When all else fails, and you have nothing to say, or can't answer a simple question, or even have a hard time thinking, or pursuing an original thought, or considering a new thought, some very boring people resort to name calling.

At least Don Firth, and myself had 'spirited', and 'creative' disagreements..in which actual knowledge and provocative thoughts were expressed. This other junk is banal!

Anyone out there capable of the concept of 'considering'?..outside of yourself?

Jeez, I betcha' their 'folk' music is just as uninspired and boring!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:09 PM

I'm sorry to inform you of this, GfS, but when you posted this:

Yadda, yadda yadda, blazoo goof goof.....anything but answering my questions!
Look, at where the snide remarks come from...Happy people??..Emotionally mature people??
You talk about being accepted, yet have an axe to grind, regarding straight people. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

You managed to completely negate all of your previous pleas to have a calm and reasonable discussion. That is not the kind of post, expressing contempt for those with whom s/he doesn't agree, I would ever read from a person who actually wants a reasonable discussion.

I have tried to state my points in a reasonable, straightforward manner, as have others on this thread, and rather than you responding to questions put to you, you respond with a post like that!

Other that merely giving lip-service to it (especially when your back is against the wall), YOU are the one who is not demonstrated good faith.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:33 AM

""I have never come across anyone who has genuine hatred of homosexuals...maybe I've led a sheltered life.""

If that statement is true Ake, it would explain a lot.

I know the internet has opened up the world, but I never thought I would be able to communicate with an alien on some very distant planet (which planet, by the way Ake?).

A short enquiry at your local police station, or at the A&E at the local hospital, should give you a clue as to the number of battered, broken, bodies appear regularly, having had an encounter with one of those gay bashers of whose existence you appear to be unaware.

I should have thought you would want to know them as they are doing their best to get rid of the "problem" for you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM

""Before anything is normalised the reasons for the abysmal male homosexual health figures must be discovered.
If the present increase in the male homosexual Hiv/aids figures continues for say another five years, would you still maintain that no action needs to be taken(the why dont you leave us alone syndrome)""

You bring this point up every hour, on the hour, and try to insinuate that no research into the causes of homosexuality or HIV/AIDS has been carried out.

In point of fact, both are among the most assiduously and minutely researched subjects in the whole field of biology.

The perils of promiscuous sexuality are not, as you well know, limited to any sexual orientation, yet, when it is suggested to you that the introduction of a stable monogamous option would assist in reducing risk, you dismiss it out of hand as being not worthy of discussion.

You claim that take-up is low, but fail to realise that the number of anti gay bigots screaming their heads off in an attempt to control what is none of their business, may bear some considerable responsibility for that.

You don't want solutions, you want homosexuals repressed, and eliminated as in the past.

As to your comment that there is not one shred of evidence for homosexuality being anything other than a lifestyle choice, that is so ridiculous that I can't imagine even you truly believe it.

But just in case you do, please tell me at what age you looked at the two possible "lifestyles" available to you, and made a conscious decision to stick it only to girls.

I use that crude language so that you will understand the question, you having used that kind of pejorative slang repeatedly.

Now I will wait to be told once more that I am not worth a response. There are an awful lot of people in this world that you consider inferior to you, and generally the qualification is the ability to ask questions to which you have NO ANSWER!.

Try how you will to conceal it, your ulterior purpose is abundantly clear to all.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:33 AM

Blazoo goof goof - I have tried this on several translation websites but without success.

I have no wish to be 'accepted' - if anyone has a problem about me being gay, it's something they need to sort out with their analyst, their conscience, their brain cells, their deity or their alcohol stash.

And do I have an axe to grind ? Only with one-track-minded homophobes.

As for emotional maturity, it wasn't me that said blazoo goof goof......

I cannot answer your question, Sanitary dear, as I do not acknowledge the premises on which they are based.

(If none of GfS' jibes were aimed at me, then I have no need to post the above. But just in case.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM

Yadda, yadda yadda, blazoo goof goof.....anything but answering my questions!
Look, at where the snide remarks come from...Happy people??..Emotionally mature people??
You talk about being accepted, yet have an axe to grind, regarding straight people. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM

Smedley wrote: "As a homosexual, I have never given very much thought at all as to whether my sexuality is genetic or not. It doesn't matter to me, honestly it doesn't. Interestingly, it seems to matter hugely to straight people, on both sides of this rancorous debate".

It matters not to me either, personally, but I do argue the genetic side in order to show that gay people do not have a choice. But even if they did have a choice. I am not bothered. It's their choice to make, not mine. But I still find no earthly reason why someone should go through all the hurt and pain inflicted on them if they could so easily choose to get out of it. THAT proves to me more than anything it is not choice. And that is why I state what I do. Personally though it makes not a ha'peth of difference to me. Where there is *****phobia, hatred and bigotry and would always try and speak up against it.

I have lots of friends who are full on gay and I have heard enough from them to make me feel I know what goes on for them. The emphasis above though is that I have lots of FRIENDS who are gay. Not I have lots of gay friends. They are FRIENDS... makes no difference what comes with it because all my friends are very individual and different. I have friends that are solidly Christian but not in your face with their religion. I have folk friends who are tranditionalsts! OMG! ;-) Etc., etc,. A friend is a friend.
---------


As regards homophobia and bigotry... I think much could be gained by researching it and finding out why some are completely entrenched. What causes homophobia type questioning and research may gives us more ideas as to why, in the face of all that is known, it still prevails. The truth with homophobia, of course, is that it IS a choice. People do choose to be homophobic. Some cannot help it, nor want to change it, nor want to get help for it, and some would never acknowledge they were homophobic, but that they are, or do a good job of showing 'true colours' is plain for others to see. Bigotry is a little more entrenched into human psychology I fear and may not have the same primers as homophobia. TOLERANCE is all that is needed. With that would come ACCEPTANCE, hopefully. So teaching tolerance, not promoting anything but plain simple humanity to others, has to be one of the ways forward. Of course many are simply accepting of others and their differences from the start. That is the best thing to see. Being tolerated is okay but being accepted is much better. We all seek validity on things in our life. We are human.

In short. I'll say it as I have kept saying it. I am not bothered what causes homosexuality. It does bother me what causes homophobia and hatred because that in itself has been and still is a great cause to the loss of the life of many individuals.

It's frightening when you see it in place and the great harm it causes. I know Smedley will be no stranger to its insidious horrors and anyone who has never witnessed it's viciousness and inhumanity has to be lucky. It is not uncommon, along with the other hate crime type offences, but then some would also deny the need for that legislation too.

mp