BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

Rag,
Again, it is easy for anyone, even you, to call me silly names like racist, but you still can not actually challenge anything I actually say because all you have is lies and made up shit!

Jim,
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you

Yes please!
It is not racist to believe eminent members of that community when they ascribe certain offending to aspects of their culture.
Why don't you believe them?
Surely you do not imagine you know more about it!

This cropped up in 2011. They have not changed their views and I still see no reason to disbelieve them. Find me someone with actual knowledge who does.
Not, Nazir Afzal, Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse or Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK for a start.
"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in "localised, street grooming" of vulnerable girls, one of the UK's most senior prosecutors has said.

Nazir Afzal, the Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse, told a meeting of Muslims in Bradford on Thursday night that the community had to address the issue of street grooming and that Muslims could not assume that "someone else is dealing with it for us".

"We do have an issue with people of our ethnicity – it's not the issue but an issue – and we have to take care of it, we have to deal with it. The solution comes from within."

"Asked why Pakistani men are overrepresented in statistics relating to on-street grooming, Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK, said it was a complex issue but partly stemmed from a lack of respect for women and girls."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/31/muslim-community-street-grooming-nazir-afzal

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

"Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said."
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you
What are you, masochist?
Your contributions make you a racist Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM

"The thread title is what Carroll?"
My title is what shithead?
"Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? "
Yes - his racist statements make him a racist - nothing to do with what I think
JOHNSON the RACIST
Not racist to those who agree with him, of which, I have no doubt, you are one.
"Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom?"
I've given my reasons why I agree with the decision, if it was a cover up, it would have been condemned widely by the press.
You have refused to comment on the Party wide cover up of the racism and Islamophobia in the Tory Party, so I assume you are.
"Ehmmmm Jom, "
Ehmmmm, or resident little Fuehrer
"You most certainly have "made stuff up"2
Prove it - with links - get somebody to show you how to make one.
"you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign."
Kitchener was forced to offer his resignation after is causing the death of British soldiers by having the wrong shells sent
"The admitted fact is that Lord Kitchener ordered the wrong kind of shell – the same kind of shell which he used largely against the Boers in 1900. He persisted in sending shrapnel – a useless weapon in trench warfare..... He alone was to advise the government and issue orders to commanders in the field. Kitchener's authority was more or less reduced to matters of manpower and recruitment.
As he himself put it, he was 'curtailed to feeding and clothing the army'. [23] The same men who had dragged Kitchener into the War Office in 1914 had effectively stripped him of his power but did not want his resignation. Each time he offered or threatened to resign, Asquith persuaded him that it was his duty to serve the King. [24] Essentially, Kitchener provided a buffer between the prime minister and his critics. Why did he not force the issue and resign, despite Asquith's insistence that he stayed? Kitchener was a proud man, yet he stood stripped of meaningful power like a glorified quartermaster. "
KITCHENER'S LETHAL BLUNDERING
- overstated maybe, but far from "made up" - your's and you mate's idiocy makes it unnecessary to make anything up, even if we were so inclined.
You, on the other hand, make up virtually every one of your claims, which is why you refuse to verify them with real information.
"Anglophobia"
You are the one who despises the British people by describing them lazy scroungers and demand they be forced to be turned into an itinerant work force and forced to live in - what exactly - tent towns, hostels, sleeping in the park... ? You refuse to share that pearl of wisdom
You also despise British achievements by describing British industry as "crap" and unworthy of support and insisting that we have to buy abroad.
The only respect you have for Britain is for the predatory rich, the monarch and the military (of which, you claim somewhat unbelievably, to have been one) - that is not Britain - it's just the decorative trimmings, the State mechanism and the hangers on.
Your insistence that the interests of the people must be subservient to The State is by definition, what makes you the Fascist you are.
"And I suggested all this when Jom? "
You didn't - Keith did
My remarks were addressed to him, if you managed to conquor your illiteracy and read what is written, you would know that - it's been pointed out often enough.
Surprisingly, the Universe does not revolve around what you have to say - you are a very unimportant incidental to these discussions - you are merely an unbelievably nasty and unstable irritant who is largely tolerated by a fairly easy-going group of people.
I was amused when you claimed that armaments was your thing - it brought back memories of your boastfully producing a photograph of your penis-substitute gun on the Homs (I think) thread - little more than an underdeveloped 'Good ol' Boy' at heart
Enough of these pleasantries - if you have any real evidence of a cover-up or antisemitism in the Labour Party, produce it (with evidence) - your one-man claims have ceased to be entertaining (in a bizarre way) and have now become somewhat tedious
What is that Antisemitism - how many are involved - where can we find that information - who else makes these claims - how do they compare to the racism, cover-up of Islamophobia - the bullying and the misogyny of the Tory Party?
I've responded to all your points - let's see how you go with these?
If you don't provide accompanying information, I really can't be arsed responding any more - I've had enough of your blustering bullshit   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:55 AM

You keep denying it is racist professor. You have been given examples where politicians have been castigated over many years for using the word and still you continue. (Johnson 2008, Powell 1968)

Naming you as a racist is not "silly name" calling. It is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that it is now beyond any doubt that you are a racist but please keep digging, it quite entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM

Rag,
Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said.
It will never happen because you have nothing but lies and made up shit Rag.

It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

If that is true it is disgusting, but all you have produced so far is a word that was not considered racist in this or any country other than USA.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

Heh Heh Heh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM

Well there you go Terribluster at least I tried, so don't start running to the Mods when you get upset.

" Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully"

Are you really that thick (don't bother to respond to that I already know the answer), do you not read the papers or watch the News or even read link provided on here. It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:47 AM

bobad - 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

"What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda."

What bobad says there is perfectly true, Hamas themselves make no secret of it, their spokesmen have even broadcast it as deliberate policy in televised interviews.

Disproportionate death tolls could have something to do with different approaches taken:

Israel:
15,000 missiles fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza since 2005 resulted in the Israeli Government creating "Iron Dome" - a system of warning radars that detect the launch of these missiles that provides the civilian population with audible warning of attack so that the population can enter thousands of shelters specifically built by the Israeli Government located in the areas subject to these attacks in order to protect the population.

Gaza:
15,000 missiles manufactured, stored, prepared and launched from within and from sites adjacent to schools, hospitals, and other sensitive location in the full knowledge that to protect it's own citizens Israel must engage those launch sites. While the IDF provide numerous and intensive warnings Hamas orders the civilian population of Gaza to ignore them, while the "fighters" and leaders of Hamas take shelter deep underground in concrete and steel bunkers that they have specifically built to protect themselves.

Israel's ultimate responsibility is to ensure the safety and security from attack of it's own citizens - it cannot be blamed for doing so - I would expect the same of my Government if this country came under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 AM

Greg F. - 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

As if Greg F. - you don't even appear on the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 PM

just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities [sic] they commit.

More unsubstantiated made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:33 PM

Jew haters who naturally blame Israel

Yup, Bubo, just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

Jew-hating antisemites every one of 'em, right?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza

No I never said that, just more made-up-shit™ from you.

What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda. This makes them responsible for the deaths of it's citizens. This is plainly obvious to everyone except for Jew haters who naturally blame Israel for defending itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM

Bobad, you have a long history in both your guises of trying to shoot down anyone who either declares against the Israeli regime or who supports the Palestinian cause. You never see human beings as human beings. You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza who the whole world can see were killed by IDF shells and rockets. You accept no criticism of the Israeli regime, ever. You define antisemitism in a way that puts Jewish people in a constant firing line, just like Bibi does. You don't see the irony of your putting Jews in harm's way in that regard. You are a hundred times more antisemitic than any Labour pottymouth. You are the enemy, just like Keith, of all the Jewish people. Yet you call us names. Oh, the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM

Well, Teribus, if you ever told me that you "respected" me I think I'd have to submit to therapy to find out where I'd gone so badly wrong. Just consider: there's you, there's bobad, there's Keith and (if you're really unlucky) there's akenaton. Our working at getting your "respect" is our absolute bottom priority. You need to take stock, old chap. Only Keith is listening. That should make you feel uncomfortable. The purpose of debate is to persuade. You work against yourself in that regard, big time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

Why don't you reprint it then and we'll all see if I condemned the AFSC as anti-Semitic or if it just made-up-shit™ from you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd

Well, Bubo, on checking I see that your post a week back condeming the AFSC as antisemitic and my response to it at the time have both mysteriously disappeared!

However, I'm sure that there are others here beside myself that remember that it did in fact exist.

Now run along and cook up some more of YOUR made-up-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

I'm sure they're gutted, T-Bird. Myself, I'd wear it as a badge of honor!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:29 PM

Raggy, taking into account what you have stated in your post - "Raggytash - 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM" - could you please tell me who is this "professor" chap you keep referring to?

"you continue to refer to me a Raggy, Jim as Jom (ever so childish) and Steve Shaw as Shaw. This not only shows a lack of intelligence it also clearly demonstrates a lack of education."

No Raggy what it shows quite clearly is my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:24 PM

No he isn't, but you are. Listen to yourself.

Well, bobad, you've told us this week that you're not an Islamophobe and you're not an an antisemite either. Have you considered that you could be one of each? After all, there are two of you!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM

Jim Carroll - 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

"The Labour party party dealt with the criticism and made recommendations - nothing from the Tories yet and nothing from you pair about the fact that Britain has a racist foreign Secretary - you made enough fuss about the Labour problem - doesn't racism and bigotry count if it comes from the right - obviously not."

The thread title is what Carroll?

Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully.

"The decision not to publish details of the Oxford enquiry was, as afar as I am concerned, a correct one.
It involved young people in the process of getting an education whose futuers depend on their not being a scandal attached to them in any shape or form - to people like you, being accused is tantamount to their being guilty, as you have amply demonstrated here."

Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom? Particularly if the cover-up is to protect the reputations of the next generation of the Labour Party's "young bloods" who may or may not have been ever so slightly anti-semetic whilst up at Oxford what?

"If there had been a serious problem, I have no doubt that the authorities would have dealt with it - in the light of the publicity this has received they could not afford to do otherwise."

Ah so just because you think that all is well - such astounding faith in the political establishment of the UK for someone whose views normally display such vehement and rabid Anglophobia. It was because of the publicity this matter received and what was contained in the report that Labour's NEC decided that it should not be published.

"If you have any information that the verdict that was reached was inaccurate or rigged, please offer it"

Ehmmmm Jom, what verdict are you wittering on about? There hasn't even been a trial. One thing is blindingly obvious though, after having read Baroness Royall's Report of her Investigation into the Oxford University Labour Club, Labour's National Executive Council decided that it was against the best interests of the Labour Party to have it's contents known by the British public.

"do you really think you are going to walk away from once again accusing me of making things up?"

Who's "walking away" Jom? You most certainly have "made stuff up" you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign. So c'mon Jim tell us all when that was, give us the date, seeing as how you didn't make it up. Not "walking away" Jom - on the contrary we could open a thread on "Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit" - the ball is in your court - all you need to prove me wrong is a date - the date Lord Kitchener was forced to resign as Secretary of State for War (Hint: It must be sometime between 5th August, 1914 and the 5th June, 1916.)

"Now - how about a withdrawal and an apology for suggesting that I made up the "self-hating Jews" statement"

And I suggested all this when Jom? Or are you just rambling on aimlessly in your usual incoherent style?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:29 PM

I would ask anybody to show a post where I have said that everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite but that request has become redundant with the made-up-shit™ crowd as they have not ever backed up one of their accusations and they are going to now........ho hum!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:07 PM

Not so, bobad old fruit. The argument is rock-solid. People like you but who are in positions of power put the Israeli Jews in harm's way. There is no hope for the peace and security that the Jews in Israel deserve while people like Bibi and his predecessors are in charge. That makes them, and you, rock-solid antisemites. If you think that constantly upping the ante for seventy years by being belligerent with their neighbours and constantly mistreating and seeking conflict with the Palestinians is what's good for Israeli Jews, well you're absolutely not on their side, are you? With "friends" like you and Keith the Jewish people of Israel and everywhere else will never be safe. And you are the threat, not a few silly but ultimately harmless people who should have engaged their brains before opening their mouths.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:48 PM

Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite

More made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect......yawn!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:36 PM

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, "
That definition includes that is is Antisemitic to blame the Jewish People for the actions of the Israeli Government.
Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite - which is contrary to the definition - he is in fact blaming the Jews for Israeli atrocities.
Neith you or he are slightly interested in the Jewish people - you are entirely involved in defending Isreali terrorism, which is nothing to do with the Jews.
Even Jews who disagree with Israeli policy are attacked as being "self-hating (no apology or retraction yet - what kind of a worm are you?)
"and the offending statements themselves"
What offending statements - how do you know they are offensive if they were held back?
So far, the only statements made public (not by the Labour party) have been crticisms of Israel.   
"The answer is yes."
Who or is that to remain one of your little secrets, along with what statements were made.
So far, the people you have given who have suggested a serious problem were pro-Israeli activists, which confirms the charge that this has all been trumped up by that campaign.
What is the press not taking this up - it's an idael opportunity to bring down the Labour Party?
I get Murdoch's Times every day for the crossword.
Ever since the advent of Corbyn they have carried out a hate campaign against Labour with cartoons that make the old Anti-Irish Punch cartoons look like picture postcards - not a single word on antisemitism since the enquiries, not one - no accusations of a cover up - now why do you reckon taht is?.
This is a campaign by you and your two brain-dead mates long after the rest of the world has moved on.
"Chakrabarti refused to give hers too."
So what - I am not a member of the Labour Party, I don't support their policias and I don't vote for them.
What on earth does it have to do with this discussion?
Now, bout that retraction and apology!!
I think that, if you haven't the decency or the courage to retract and apologise forr your accusations, I really have finished with you people.
Your disgusting behaviour continues to foul up these threads.
You have no principles, no humaity and no decency - not one of you.
You reall are sorry excuses for human beings - all of you,
Happy to continue with anybody else, but you three raelly are the pits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM

The trouble is that the professor (Keith A of Hertford) is still smarting as a result of him being shown to be a racist. Not only has he been "outed" as being a liar, the Wheatcroft fiasco, he has now been "outed" as a racist.

His problem being instead of acknowledging he is in the wrong he will continue to dig and dig, seek to justify his own position which only serves to further undermine what little standing he(if he has any) has on this forum.

Ignorance can be rectified, the professors problem is far deeper and probably incurable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:18 PM

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee.....

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd.......no surprise that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:31 PM

Not even the EU accepted that definition, and never did. Ditched years ago. You are a thoroughly dishonest man, Keith, and it's a disgrace that you choose to resurrect this now, considering that you were demolished by the sword of truth months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:09 PM

the European Working Group On Antisemitism

By the by, Professor, I thought y'all just voted yourselves OUT of the E.U. because they were a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats that couldn't tell their arses from a hole in the ground.

Now you SUPPORT the E.U. asnd its deliberations and pronouncements?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM

Say good-night, Professor. I'm not playing you game, nor BuBo's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:01 PM

Greg,
you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, which all of you rejected.
It is you people you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little minds, rejecting those in use by the EU and the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:57 PM

Jim,
Teribus implied it by suggesting that facts were held back

The names of all those guilty of antisemitic statements, and the offending statements themselves, were held back Jim!
Also the entire report into the OULC!

Steve, Jim asked "does anyone else claim it."
The answer is yes.
Do some people not count?

Jim,
there was no serious problem found.

Yes there was. That was why the inquiries were convened, and why those inquiries made so many recommendations to deal with it.

"every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong"
You refuse to give us yours
Chakrabarti refused to give hers too.
We do have the EU criteria.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Steve,
Frankly, I get along just fine without a definition.

You failed to recognise Naz Shah's antisemitic statements that were recognised by the Labour NEC and Shah herself, so you do not get along "just fine."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:44 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee - which has served the cause of suffering humanity impartially since its founding - as opposed to small-minded idiots like yourself who do nothing consequential and only whine and point fingers - you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target not that of a few regressive leftists on an internet folk music forum.

Who should define anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:03 PM

Frankly, I get along just fine without a definition. I do object when people with ulterior motives improperly try to embrace legitimate aspects of criticism as antisemitism that have nothing to do with hating Jews because they are Jews. Like what you and Keith do, bobad. I haven't read a single comment here from anyone who has attacked Jews because they are Jews and you can't quote me any.

You should listen to Raggytash, Teribus. That patient man is painting an accurate picture of how you come across. You need to be far calmer, more measured and more constructive. All that acquired mass of information you have to hand is projected at us through a distorted lens, tinted with a very rigid, right-wing ideology. Baby out with bathwater. And if that sounds patronising, tough shit. We're going to keep telling you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 12:34 PM

every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong.

Right back atcha, Boo! Physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 AM

"every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong"
You refuse to give us yours
As far as I am concerned, it describes attacks on the Jewish People - not their politicians, not those who excuse their behaviour be hiding by the dead of Auschwitz - we leave that to cowardly people like you.
Nobody, to my recollection, has ever attacked the Jewish people on this forum, with the exception of those who euqate Israeli atrocities with being Jewish (oh, and those who use terms like "Self hating Jews") - not here, but in general.
The offer of that donation still stands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

No more or less than anyone else, I imagine

Obviously not more that you and the rest of the flock who see fit to let everyone know that every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM

Can't be arsed going back through your posts Teribus. However you, probably above all others, are the one person who complains about such Ad Hominem posts. For example a few months ago you mentioned the use of given pseudonyms yet you continue to refer to me a Raggy, Jim as Jom (ever so childish) and Steve Shaw as Shaw. This not only shows a lack of intelligence it also clearly demonstrates a lack of education.

If you really wanted a sensible debate you would refrain from such.

You may have noticed I have referred to yourself as Teribus for some time despite your continuing use of a abbreviation for myself.

Perhaps if you were to debate intelligently and cohesively instead of bullying and blustering insisting you are right and others are wrong your posts may carry more weight. The world isn't just black or white, it isn't just good or bad, much of the time there isn't even a clear right or wrong.

My views on most subjects are the product of the books I have read. I am aware there is a propensity to read things that will reinforce things that I preconceive, a natural enough line to take, but not necessarily the best one. Thus I attempt to read round a subject taking in the views of ALL sides so I may form my own opinions. I do not, as you seem to do, just regurgitate the views of the nearest (in your case right wing) diatribe I can find.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

"No-one used that word about them!"
Teribus implied it by suggesting that facts were held back
If it wasn't rigged, you have no case - there was no serious problem found.
"Plenty of criticism though."
The criticism can be applied to any political party and any section of the British public
The Labour party party dealt with the criticism and made recommendations - nothing from the Tories yet and nothing from you pair about the fact that Britain has a racist foreign Secretary - you made enough fuss about the Labour problem - doesn't racism and bigotry count if it comes from the right - obviously not.
The decision not to publish details of the Oxford enquiry was, as afar as I am concerned, a correct one.
It involved young people in the process of getting an education whose futuers depend on their not being a scandal attached to them in any shape or form - to people like you, being accused is tantamount to their being guilty, as you have amply demonstrated here.
If there had been a serious problem, I have no doubt that the authorities would have dealt with it - in the light of the publicity this has received they could not afford to do otherwise.
If you have any information that the verdict that was reached was inaccurate or rigged, please offer it - so far you have given neither numbers or the nature of the accusation - you have dealt only in smears.
The verdicts of both enquiries seems to have been generally accepted - that's enough for me.
Talking of which - do you really think you are going to walk away from once again accusing me of making things up?
In your dreams.
You have exposed yourself once again as the unpleasantly dishonest individual you appear to be.
Now - how about a withdrawal and an apology for suggesting that I made up the "self-hating Jews" statement - you have had ample proof that it is now a standard way of describing opponents of the regime.
I am not a believer, but I have spent my life in the company of people who describe themselves as Christians and have learned to love them and respect their beliefs, even if I don't share them.
I have no idea what form of Christianity you aspire to but your vicious inhumanity and your dishonesty is far beyond my experience.
" run out of road "
You are the one who "runs out of road", refuses to provide evidence for your claims and eventually lapses into silence.
How about some links - to anything you have claimed?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:45 AM

"If you're not really bothered about Ad Hominem attacks why do you mention them so frequently" - Raggy

I don't mention them frequently.

I do naturally request substantiation for accusations and allegations, a pointless exercise so far as those coming out with these baseless accusations never, ever seem able to support them.

"Someone from the right wing (your)side has run off crying to the mods about this on more than one occasion. Perhaps that was you."

Not me Raggy - I prefer to trade like for like - and so far on this thread it would appear that it's "your side" that's doing the screaming.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:31 AM

No more or less than anyone else, I imagine. Unless you have a victimhood story about him to tell us. Care to expand?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:15 AM

And here we go, good old Hirsh again...

Right, he's just another one of them Jews, WTF would he know about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM

He barely notices it but he spent all day yesterday raging about it! I'm beginning to think that I detect signs of an inferiority complex....now why didn't think of that before...

And here we go, good old Hirsh again...😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:06 AM

If you're not really bothered about Ad Hominem attacks why do you mention them so frequently while more often than not indulging in the same yourself. Someone from the right wing (your)side has run off crying to the mods about this on more than one occasion. Perhaps that was you.

If you feel a desire to slag me off please carry on. I really don't give a flying **** what you call me. Now if someone I respected were to criticise me I would take note, but an uneducated oaf, who considers an argument won because he shouts louder than anyone else who bullies and blusters more than anyone else, who demonstrates his profound ignorance at every turn I quite honestly feel sorry for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:53 AM

Mudcat is not showing highlights just now.
Here is David Hirsh on Chakrabarti,

"What Shami Chakrabarti failed to do in this report was to explain how to recognise contemporary left wing antisemitism. She failed to describe it, how it operates, how it is sometimes hidden, and what its key tropes are.

She had every opportunity to do this in a way which could be easily understood because her inquiry was precipitated by a number of examples of left wing antisemitism. She could have gone through them and explained why they were antisemitic. She did no such thing. Indeed there were two incidents which happened at her very launch which illustrate precisely the kind of antisemitism which requires explaining and opposing....

In my submission to the Chakrabarti Inquiry, I wrote: "A bad apple theory will not do as an explanation for the current phenomenon of antisemitism on the left. We need to understand what the problem is with the barrel which has allowed so many apples to turn bad." "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:47 AM

Raggy I have long ago accepted that when Jom, Steve & Co (Including yourself) run out of road they follow what is by now a very tired and worn out script. I have got so used to it by now that I barely notice their remarks and idiotic, groundless allegations that both Keith A and myself have continually demonstrated can never be substantiated. Please point out where in that last post of mine I complain or state my "objections" to their ad hominem attacks - I merely commented on the fact that that is what they do. I leave the bleating and complaining to them. They are very good a dishing it out to others then scream like stuck pigs when they get some of their own treatment back. You're like a flock of sheep - not an independent thought among the lot of you, if you had brains you'd be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:36 AM

Jim,
Where is your evidence that The Labour investigations were rigged - does anybody else claim it?

"Rigged?" No-one used that word about them!
Plenty of criticism though.
Not of the Oxford enquiry obviously, because it has been withheld.
You have to wonder why.
Here is David Hirsh on Chakrabarti.

"What Shami Chakrabarti failed to do in this report was to explain how to recognise contemporary left wing antisemitism. She failed to describe it, how it operates, how it is sometimes hidden, and what its key tropes are.

She had every opportunity to do this in a way which could be easily understood because her inquiry was precipitated by a number of examples of left wing antisemitism. She could have gone through them and explained why they were antisemitic. She did no such thing. Indeed there were two incidents which happened at her very launch which illustrate precisely the kind of antisemitism which requires explaining and opposing....

In my submission to the Chakrabarti Inquiry, I wrote: "A bad apple theory will not do as an explanation for the current phenomenon of antisemitism on the left. We need to understand what the problem is with the barrel which has allowed so many apples to turn bad."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM

For someone who objects to Ad Hominem attacks as you have done so many times, you above all, seem to be the most vitriolic in this regard.

Care to read your last post again, the one where you complain of Ad Hominem attacks in the same post as you accuse Jim of being inferior.

If that is not an Ad Hominem attack perhaps you, with your vast higher education could explain the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:50 AM

Show us your evidence for all your claims
I have not the slightest interest in aruing the toss with an arrogant bully who believes he can get away with top-of-the-head claims that have no substance in reality
You have been given link after link in all these arguments - you provide none and when asked to do so, refuse.
What kind of a NUTTER are you?
"What a truly pathetic, spineless and sorry lot you are."
Thanks again for that example of your arrogance - you're certainly racking them up.
Where is your evidence that The Labour investigations were rigged - does anybody else claim it?
I'll be asking your mate about his "made up shit" claim on "self-hating-Jews" when he gets home from church!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:36 AM

Oh I don't know about that Jim. You, Shaw and your pals having had your rather poorly presented arguments and points of view shredded on yet another thread so you lot have pretty much reverted to following your standard script:

1: Divert
2: Deflect
3: Then the baseless accusations are made
4: Then the insults and ad hominem attacks

Accused of being a "racist" none of you can come up with one single example to back-up your accusation - Situation normal.

Accused of being "Islamophobic" none of you can come up with one single example to back-up your accusation - Situation normal.

And then of course, to our collection of "Class Warrior" and would-be working-class "heroes" of the "Left", we've got to be "fascists" - well isn't everyone who disagrees with you.

This apparent inferiority complex you seem to suffer from Jom probably stems from the fact that you probably are genuinely inferior.

What a truly pathetic, spineless and sorry lot you are.