Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee

Subject: RE: Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:46 AM

I too would certainly rather have a cup of tea than instant or camp coffee but most coffee now in the multitude of coffee shops (and pubs) comes not from a pot but a machine. There's an ad for one in this thread!

Subject: RE: Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 12:01 AM

And, of course, Mudcatter Seamus Kennedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNF14stWGzc

Subject: RE: Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 11:30 AM

Some Performances on YouTube
Cosmotheka https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Lm_KlJsQY
The Andrews Sisters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPnUzZiSEUo
Trout Fishing in America https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ia13f72-4

Subject: RE: Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,jim Bainbridge
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 06:22 AM

As Dave Sutherland said 17 years ago!!, it was very much part of the late lamented Don Partridge's folk club repertoire- can't remember if he credited anyone with it...
I heard him sing it at Marsden Inn when 'Rosie' was top of the charts & the club was mobbed- late 60s?- learned the words from a book of sheet music I found later & met him again years later when doing Seaford club (he lived there).
Nice bloke, I complimented him on actually turning up for his booking when he could have named his price at the Newcastle City Hall.
I still remember his reply... 'well you was mates, wasn't yer?'

between verse patter I recall included- ' I've got good grounds for singing this song'
and
'the beauty of this song will slowly filter through to you'

Subject: RE: Origins: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 06:04 AM

Bernard Cribbins 1978
https://youtu.be/mA1DOor5ndI?t=10s

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM

I was watching BBC 1's "Inside the factory " last night, about manufacturing instant coffee. History lesson: in the First World War, British troops were fuelled by tea, of course; but when the Americans arrived, they could only operate on coffee. One George Washington (no, not that one) invented an instant coffee that was drinkable under wartime conditions. In Britain, we invented Camp Coffee, which was mostly chicory and tasted awful (I couldn't possibly comment; but it's still made).
Listening to this, I began to wonder if this was the inspiration for the song?

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 12:04 PM

Here's yet another recording of me singing it, with 'help' from the audience.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

FreddyHeadey sent me a very nice MIDI of the melody:

---

Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM

Here it is.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM

Thanks for that !!

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,freddyheadey
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 07:41 PM

I 'think' I've done a midi file from that sheet music, just need to check with joe how I send it in.
-------------------------------------
@Leadfingers re : three lots of patter
-that's on the The National Library of Australia sheet music :
WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE
> back cover

---

Click to play (joeweb)

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:24 PM

I have the Ernie Payne patter about the proper pewter porter pot - Zny one have any other patter parts ? I see GUEST Simon mentioned three lots of patter !

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM

And this is me doing it. "Vocal refrain and patter"

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Little Robyn
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:03 AM

Cosmotheka are there too.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Little Robyn
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 07:58 AM

I've just found both versions on youtube.
The original one is performed as a Music Hall song here.
Back in the 60s we heard John Foreman, the Broadside King, singing this on one of the Folk Song Cellar radio programmes and Mitch used to sing it.

The other version - the one in DT, comes from Trout Fishing in America. There are several copies in youtube but the one I found most entertaining is a mimed version by two kids, The Griffin boys.

Robyn

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:25 PM

It's not often that the DT has melodies that are wrong - although the lyrics often have imperfections. The MIDI we have almost sounds like a harmony line, not the usual melody. Anybody want to transcribe a MIDI and send it to me for posting?
-Joe-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM

The DT version is wrong -- that's the simple answer! A touch of the oral tradition, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,freddyheadey
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:14 AM

Thanks.

My music reading skills are more than a little rusty but
Jim Dixon 's link Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:51 AM Transcribed from the sheet music at The National Library of Australia:
WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE R. P. Weston & Bert Lee, 1926.
seems a fair bit different from the
digitrad COFFEEPOT SongID=1242
Would that be something someone on mudcat could look at?
Maybe there is another file I couldn't find?

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM

Thanks for that, GUEST Simon

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Simon Barratt
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:14 AM

I have just acquired a copy of the sheet music for "Proper Cup O'Coffee". I can confirm that it's copyrighted 1926 by FD&H, price 6d. This particular copy is "Sung By Ernie Mayne", who just happens to be my paternal grandfather. The fourth page of the song-sheet contains three verses of patter to be recited after each verse in reprise. Also, the words submitted by Jim Dixon in June 06 are the correct words.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 11:27 AM

John Foreman was a professional printer (I believe his presses are still there and working), and as part of his trade produced two brilliant reproduction books, Hindley´s "Curiosities of Street Literature" and Ashton´s "Real Sailor Songs" both now collector´s items in their own right.

As a singer and "music hall" artist he wasw of the very highest order. Part of this song was a piece of patter which went "if you need to, put in a breathe there, and if you can´t manage a breathe, put in a semi-breathe!".

A real gentleman - kind warm-hearted and generous with his time and knowledge. And a brilliant performer.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

Thanks, once again, Jim, for posting a definitive lyric from a print source--performers tend to take liberties of one kind or another, and it is very helpful to know exactly what they were taking liberty with.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:51 AM

Transcribed from the sheet music at The National Library of Australia:

WHAT I WANT IS A PROPER CUP O' COFFEE
(R. P. Weston & Bert Lee, 1926)

1. A sultan sat on his oriental mat,
In his harem, High Street, Persia.
He took one sip at his coffee, just a drip,
And he said to his slave, "Oh, curse yer!
Oh, curse yer! Curse yer! Curse yer!
It's the horriblest coffee in Persia!"

CHORUS:
What I want is a proper cup o' coffee,
Made in a proper copper coffee pot.
I may be off my dot,
But I want a cup o' coffee from a proper copper pot.
Tin coffee pots and iron coffee pots,
They're no use to me.
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee
From a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea."

2. King Solomon with a queen would carry on,
So we read in the ancient scandals.
He gave her lots of silver coffee pots
Which had diamond spouts and handles,
But said the Queen of Sheba,
"I would rather have any old tea bar."

3. When Boneypart found that he was in the cart
And he'd lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword up to Wellington, the Lord,
And he said, "You British, you do fight!
Yes, you've won Waterloo, sir.
Now what am I having with you, sir?"

4. In days of old when knights and days were bold,
And whiskey was much cheaper,
Dick Turpin rode to a coffee stall and showed
His gun to the coffee stall keeper.
Said he, "Stand and deliver!
Good heavens! I'm all of a shiver."

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 06:22 AM

Only just picked up on this thread. Very interesting.

About 20 years ago when I lived in Amsterdam, I got to know somebody through playing squash with him. He invited me to an old time music hall night which he ran and was the lead person.
He sang that song and I still remember it to this day.
I have never been able to get the words right though.
Now I can teach my duaghters how to sing it. They like that sort of song.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

I'm very glad to note that the idea that John Foreman is a)dead and b) had an estate that was 'tight' about his lyrics, has itself gone to its just reward.
As of a couple of days ago JF was fine. As to 'his' lyrics, I'm not sure that he wrote many songs (I think there may have been one that he performed of his own) but was, of course, a superb performer of music hall songs.
I'm glad he's singing occasionally. Being sung to by JF is very good for you and him.

Subject: Lyr Add: PROPER CUP OF COFFEE (Weston/Lee/Hills/M)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 06:48 PM

The version given below is sung by Priscilla Herdman, Anne Hills, & Cindy Mangsen on their album "Voices of Winter," Gadfly Records CD 235, 1997. The tune and chorus are the ones written by Weston & Lee (although they're mistakenly called "traditional" on Herdman's website) but Hills & Mangsen wrote new verses.

This song was played on Minnesota Public Radio's Morning Show on Friday, June 4, 2004. You can listen to the archived program at that site, but the archive will only be available for one month after the air date. The song begins 1 hour, 13 minutes and 30 seconds into the show. (RealPlayer version 10 lets you skip right to it.)

A PROPER CUP OF COFFEE

CHORUS: All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffeepot.
I may be off my dot, but I want a cup of coffee from a proper coffeepot.
Iron coffeepots and tin coffeepots, oh, they're no use to me.
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee from a proper copper coffeepot, I'll have a cup of tea.

1. While shopping at the mall,
I spied a little stall
By the name of The Happy Little Brewer.
The clerk said she would grind
Any coffee I could find,
So I posed my dilemma to her:
"I don't want your cherry chocolate cappuccino.
There is just one way I wish to sip the beano."
CHORUS

2. I boarded on a jet
Five hours just to sit
And take a trip across the country.
We flew into a storm--
No cause for great alarm--
But suddenly the flight turned bumpy.
The captain said, "Because of turb-u-lence,
I'm sorry, but we just can't serve-you-lunch."
And I said: CHORUS

3. I heard about a sage,
One hundred years of age,
Who lived up on a mountain treacherous.
To find him, you must climb
And cut through leaf and vine
And reach a yoga camp called Stretch-R-Us.
When finally I reached the mountaintop,
All he said was, "Did you bring the coffeepot?" (Om!)
CHORUS TWICE

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 10 Oct 03 - 05:16 AM

There was no "old school tie" involved Dave, It was Ken Lees who did the persuading ;-)

Maybe see you when John's on if not before.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM

Great to hear that you've persuaded John to perform, Kevin - I must try and get there for it. Not only does he sing some very amusing songs, but he also has some great patter and usually even performs some paper-tearing for "Rule Brittania". I love his description of a crochet hook as an embryonic 'arpoon.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:46 AM

John Foreman is appearing at the Old Rose And Crown Walthamstow
on 11 December.

A rare featured appearance these days but he was in fine form when he dropped in and did a song before the Summer.

To add to an earlier posting, John's son in Madness is Chris Foreman guitarist.

Extra, but useless, info - John went to my old school, as did a number of other well known folkies, but that was some years before me [even though I'm ancient, before someone else mentions that fact ;-)].

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,Sounds like their referring to an Ibrik
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:50 PM

used for Turkish - Middle Eastern coffee.
Turkish Ibrik

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

Very relieved to hear that John Foreman is still with us. I hadn't heard anything untoward about him. He gave us a cracking night at Traditions at the Tiger, Notts., about five years ago, he was excellent company and a fine gentleman. Don Partridge used to feature "The Coffee Pot Song" quite a lot during the sixties.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:03 AM

Joe

You're right - Weston & Lee were songwriting before the 30s (they did thousands of songs). Goodbye-ee (their first big hit, I think) was from 1917. (They were also responsible for several of the Stanley Holloway monologues).

Mick

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:32 AM

Point of trivial information - John Foreman's son is in the pop group Madness - but I am afraid I don't know which one he is!! Despite seeing them loads of times in the late 70's very early 80's.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:38 AM

Joe, I've no idea what a tea-bar is, I just type whatI hear! Well ... in the first pace, it rhymes ... I'd always assumed it meant a bar where they only serve tea; we had a lot of milk bars (where they only served milk, naturally) over here in the 1950s, so that's a kind of precedent, I suppose.

(Not a few well-known performers started out in milk bars, BTW: Tommy Steele at the Two Is in London, for instance; and didn't the Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group do similarly? This is a case for Roger the Skiffler!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 05:05 AM

John Foreman is still in good health (or was when I spoke to him a few months ago), lives in Camden and sometimes turns up at "Sharps". Unfortunately he refuses to sing these days. If anyone wants to contact him, PM me for his phone number.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:19 AM

Is that "tea-bar" in the last line, Steve? What's it mean?
Who was Burt Turpin? Hey, I just post what I see...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: PROPER CUP OF COFFEE (from Cosmotheka)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:11 AM

FWIW, here are the lyrics as sung by Cosmotheka (Dave and the late Al Sealy). These agree with what odd scraps I can rememeber hearing as a youngster, and are rather more Englsh. (Who was Burt Turpin?!)

Steve

===============================================================
The Sultan sat on his oriental mat, in his harem, High Street, Persia,
He took a sip of coffee, just a drip, and he said to his servant Kersia,
"Oh, curse ya, curse ya, curse ya, it's the horrible-est coffee in Persia!"

Chorus
What I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot,
I may be off my dot, but I'll have a cup of coffee in a proper copper pot.
Tin coffee pots, iron coffee pots, they're no use to me!
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea!"

In days of old when knights and days were bold, and whiskey was much cheaper,
Dick Turpin rode to a coffee house and showed his gun to the coffeee house keeper,
He said "Stand and deliver! Good heavens, I'm all of a quiver!"

Old Bonaparte found that he was in the cart when he lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword to Wellington the Lord, and he said "You British, you can fight!
You've had your Waterloo, sir; now what am I having with you, sir?"

King Solomon with his queen would carry on, so we read in ancient scandals,
He bought her lots of silver coffee pots with diamond spouts and handles,
"But," said the Queen of Sheba, "I'd rather have any old tea-bar!"

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:03 AM

No end to the interesting things I learn here, now including the author of With Her Head Tucked...one of my mother's favorites.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:53 AM

I saw it last year in a Buskers Tunebook (Music hall songs, possibly) where I think it was stated copyright 1903, but I can't remember who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:35 AM

I thought they were earlier, but I found that R.P Weston & Bert Lee wrote screenplays for the British film industry in the 1930's - but I think their songwriting peaked earlier. They also wrote With Her Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm (1934) and Heaven Will Protect an Honest Girl (1933) and Knees Up, Mother Brown (1938), so maybe they were more recent than I thought..
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 02:48 AM

Thanks, 'Catters, I appreciate the info! Now I can acknowledge the authors.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 06:27 PM

gosh i can just hear this is some musical
perhaps rogers and hammerstein?

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 05:15 PM

R.P Weston & Bert Lee, Copyright 1926 Frances Day and Hunter

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:31 PM

And it was definatley PRE John Foreman Ernie Mayne sounds about right.
I believe he used to do a lot of patter in between the verses, invluding a reference 'This being a temperence house I am sure I heard some one sing I want a pot of porter etc.

Subject: ADD Version: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 01:04 PM

Looks like we never did get back to the source of this song. Here's a transcription that incorporates the verse Leadfingers posted, and the other parts sometimes make more sense than what we have in the DT. Can we find the original somewhere? Can we get a good transcription of the tune?
-Joe Offer-

---

A PROPER CUP OF COFFEE
(R.P Weston & Bert Lee)
(as recorded by Trout Fishing In America)

Verse 1
A Sultan sat on his oriental mat, in his harem in downtown Persia,
He took a sip of coffee, just a drip, and he said to his servant Kersia,
"Ah, curse ya, curse ya, curse ya, That's the worst cup of coffee in Persia!"

Chorus
"`Cause...
All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot,
I may be off my dot, but I want a proper coffee in a proper copper pot.
Iron coffee pots and tin coffee pots, they are no use to me!
If I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup of tea!"

Verse 2
In days of old when knights and men were bold, and whiskey was much cheaper,
Burt Turpin rode to a coffee shop and showed his pistols to the keeper,
He said "Stand and deliver! Can't you see that I'm all a'quiver?"
[Repeat Chorus]

Verse 3
When Bonaparte found that he was in the cart and he lost that Waterloo fight,
He gave his sword to Wellington, my Lord, and he said "Those British can't half fight,
Now you've had your Waterloo, sir, tell me what am I having with you, sir?"
[Repeat Chorus]

Verse 4
Now King Solomon and his queen would carry on, so we heard in the ancient scandals,
He bought her lots of silver coffee pots with diamond legs and handles,
And said the Queen of Sheba, "I'd rather have any old tea-bag..."
[Repeat Chorus 3 Times]


Taken from Lyrics Playground

Subject: Verse Add: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 09:09 AM

Thanks!

~S~

Subject: Lyr Add: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 03 - 07:33 AM

Just checked the Lyric in the D T and find I have been singing an extra verse since nineteen canteen. Here it is :-

Napoleon saw that he was in the Cart
When he lost that Waterloo fight
He took his sword up to Wellington,the Lord
And he said 'You British do fight'
Now you've won Waterloo, sir
What am I going to have with you, sir
And the old Iron Duke said etc

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:26 AM

How would you get that addition into the database - would it mean adding a completely new version, or is it possible to update an existing one?

Subject: ADD Verse: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:03 AM

I heard (and recorded) John Foreman singing this in 1972. Once the audience had got the hang of the coffee version of the chorus, he would throw in the following variant

All I want is a proper pint of porter
Poured in a proper pewter porter pot
I may be off my dot,
But I want a pint of porter in a pewter porter pot
Iron porter pots and tin porter pots,
They're no use to me,
If I can't have a proper pint of porter from a proper pewter porter pot
I'll have a cup of tea!"

Subject: RE: Need Info: Proper Cup of Coffee
From: Tony Burns
Date: 18 Oct 99 - 06:51 PM

The accreditation given by County Vaudeville says "(R.P.Weston and Bert Lee)copyright 1926 Francis Day and Hunter".