Collapse of the Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:52 AM

Someone mentioned the song in a way which suggested it was the first time they'd heard it. I supplied the references. Now piss off.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,John Blanks
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:49 AM

I did promise myself that I wouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I'm going to break the habit of a lifetime and surrender to temptation.

You see, Countess, you're at it again!

"I'm sure your rendition of Annachie Gordon is 'very nice'."

I didn't make any claims about it, other than to make factual statements about how I came to love and learn a particular version (and I absolutely will NOT get drawn into arguments about 'versions', their validity, right to exist or whatever!), and how I introduce it. Whether, in your opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, it's 'very nice' or not is of no consequence to me - I love the song, I take utmost pleasure from performing it, and I believe in the validity of message it gives out. That message may have been missed by some of the audience - we are all human beings, of varying mental capacity, and it ill-behoves the intellectual to speak in a way which attempts to vilify and demean the less-intellectually-gifted - but it certainly was not missed by the two young men who requested the song, for whom I sang it, and who described the way in which a group of their York University student-colleagues, both male and female, had been moved to tears on hearing it.

The points you make are frequently correct in substance, and I would happily agree with you over much of what you say but, sadly, the impact of much of the real meat of your posts is lost in the face of your constant generalisations about things of which you clearly have no knowledge or experience - perfect examples being your statements about Lincolnshire and it's male population, when you then admit that you've never been there! How can you possibly make these outrageous statements of 'fact' when they are, in truth, just your ill-informed opinions? You demand respect from a specific section of society, whilst insulting and abusing those very same people!

Not all men are neanderthals. The majority aren't - they are like I try to be, kind, generous, considerate and loving husbands, fathers, friends and colleagues. Just like most women.

And just as there are SOME vile, ignorant, pugnacious and rapacious men, logic and some personal experience has taught me that they are mirrored in a similar small percentage of the female population - every family will have its black sheep after all. The evidence from this thread is that you, dear lady, fall into that latter small category, and that's very sad. Prove to us that it's not true. Please don't let me down.
JB

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:47 AM

Countess...you state.... >>I found it ever so ironic that a song about forced marriage and attempted ritual rape had gone completely over the heads of your audience.<<
You are too obviously capable of making assumptions...such large ones that you claim to know what a whole audience is thinking. After Johns explanation on the night I think no-one was left in any doubt. You may have a wide knowledge of music or whatever but i guess you don't know it all eh?. Please chill out and fill us with wonderment at your exquisite eloquence.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:33 AM

Are you suggesting that I have advocated the 'banning' of any songs, Stallion? Obviously, I have not (though would very much prefer not to have to listen to teenage angst etc crap). What I do think is how ridiculous it is that no-one apparently gets what a song is ABOUT because their minds are on non-musical and other reprehensible pursuits. If in a f*lk club, the top priority really ought to be the music. When it is not it is possibly preferable that the venue collapses.

As for attribution, yes I do believe that this is very important, both for academic reasons and because musicians' livelihoods often depend upon royalties. Does the Tap & Spile omit to make PRS returns then?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:21 AM

Oh, and another theme to this thread, We sing about Hunting with dogs, hounds , yet none of us actually support hunting with dogs, so, now that it is banned, should all the songs about hunting be forgotten and never sung, we are about record "O Good Ale", a real wife beater of a song but none of us would contemplate condone and even condemn such behaviour but
surely rational reasonable people would know that the lyrics were an observation of another age rather than an endorsement of it, salt and vinegar with those Madam?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:11 AM

Last night we had a cracking session in the Tap & Spile (York), the vast majority of the performers were under thirty, nay 25, me and the boys hoisted the average age considerably, indeed I include those who turn up without "instruments" for a sing, taking jaqui c's point that folk music isn't about performing its taking part, I think that it is vacuous, petulant and of no relevance whether some one sounds like Nic Jones, does a Nic Jones arrangement or for that matter any one else's arrangement, if folk clubs are dying it will be because people will have forgotten or lost sight of the fact that people go to enjoy themselves not to be told what to enjoy, so, send the anorak to the charity shop and engage with people positively and be thankful that people are singing and playing the songs whosevers arrangement that might be.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 May 07 - 04:06 AM

Some 'anonymous guest' posted the address and personal details of someone with the same name as me who lives and works in Liverpool. So much for map-reading skills. After conversation with 'da management', this has been removed.

John Blanks, I'm sure your rendition of Annachie Gordon is 'very nice'. And I know that Lincolnshire is 100 miles long as viewed from a train window. I've never actually been. Some idiot was rambling on in his usual trivial and derogatory fashion about the physical attributes of a women band called Fen (or was it Wolds?) Women. I found it ever so ironic that a song about forced marriage and attempted ritual rape had gone completely over the heads of your audience.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,John Blanks
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:42 AM

Well, as you're talking about ME, I'll dip in. As I don't wish to be accused of being an 'anonymous' guest, I'm posting this 'shit' under my real name.

".....and what is trotted out by floor singers is invariably the tune and arrangement of Nic Jones as recorded on Noah's Ark Trap and later, for obvious Celtic-related reasons, on Unearthed."

Not in 'my' performance of the song. I've never heard Nic Jones' version, but I'm told by those who have that 'my version' is very different from Nic's. In fact I've based what I do on the tune and arrangement which is used by Sharon Fountain, a Barnsley singer, guitarist and writer whom I admire very much indeed, both as a performer and as a human being. No doubt I'll now be accused of plagiarism, but guess what - as the woman says, "Am I bovvered?".

"It relates the consequences of patriarchal and oppressively offensive behaviour towards a woman."

Yep, that's exactly how I introduce it - my words may be more of the one-syllable variety (being a member of that sub-human sector known by the general term "men"), but the meaning is precisely the same.

"Or is it just a gang of backwoods Lincolnshire 'men', pissed and on the prowl after their club night out with George PapAvgeris?"

I was born, and still live in Lincolnshire. My day-job is as the accountant for the UK-division of a multi-national manufacturing company. My wife is a manager in the same company. I've never beaten her. I rejoice in her independence of thought and action, and she in mine. My wife is the at centre of my existence, and she's the best friend I have, or have ever had. I wear clothes which I buy new in well-known clothing stores. I drive a reasonably new German car. I frequently eat out at restaurants, holding my knife and fork in the correct hands and chewing with my mouth closed. I speak English and acceptably decent French (necessary, given the diverse locations of my employers' business, and the need to visit other locations). I read books by 'proper' writers, that don't have any pictures - lots of them (currently reading 'The Tenderness of Wolves'). I have travelled in the USA, Canada, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Greece and her Islands, Egypt, I've spent time exploring the ecologically unique and beautiful St. Kilda archipelago (have you, dear Countess? Mmmm,
thought not!). I'm a lifelong part-time tall-ship sailor (now curtailed due to my recent protracted illness). I attended 'Faldingworth Live' last night, both as a performer and to hear George Papavgeris (as fine an example of a gentleman, in its true sense of 'gentle-man' as you could hope to meet) and the other performers. I don't drink alcohol. I took my son with me and, after the gig ended, we helped the PA guy and his wife to strip the gear down and load it in their car. We then loaded my gear in my car and drove home for Horlicks and bed.

If that makes me a "Backwoods Lincolnshire 'man' pissed and out on the prowl after our club night with GP", then I'd suggest that someone has a very closed-minded and bigotted view of the world.

"Unable, for obvious reasons, to pull the Fen women,"

Countess, your knowledge of traditional music is, no doubt, encyclopaedic. Your grasp of geography is, on the basis of your statement, clearly woefully deficient. Faldingworth is not in the Fens, nowhere near them. It lies in North Lincolnshire (that's towards the top of the map, provided you're holding it the right way up). The Fens are in the South of Lincolnshire (that's towards the bottom, or the top if you still haven't mastered the art of map-reading). It's a long way from Faldingworth to the Fens, a very long drive - most of us pissed-up Lincolnshire backwoodsmen would have run our cars into the ditch long before we got there (and that's assuming WE know which way up to hold the map).

"they're just having 'fun' with their computers"

Isn't that exactly what you're doing, Countess?

Sadly, Countess, your contribution to this thread has been very much devalued by your totally unwarranted vitriol towards any man who disagreed with you. You clearly have the intellect for reasoned discussion, and a great depth of knowledge on what is, presumably, your main (if not only) subject - why not stick a patch on, have a glass of Chardonnay, touch index-fingers and thumbs, take a deep breath and intone 'Aummmmm' until you gain whatever equilibrium you're capable of, then come back with reasoned and reasonable input, and offer some of the respect for others that you demand for yourself? That way, this thread, which started out as an interesting foray into the reasons for the demise (or otherwise) of the folk clubs, might just crawl out of the gutter and get back on track.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to read this. I appreciate it very much, and hope (although vainly, I fear) that it will receive your reasoned consideration.

Good Day.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 05 May 07 - 03:11 AM

Oh dear

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 May 07 - 01:10 AM

Annachie Gordon is Child #239 Lord Saltoun and Annanachie and what is trotted out by floor singers is invariably the tune and arrangement of Nic Jones as recorded on Noah's Ark Trap and later, for obvious Celtic-related reasons, on Unearthed. It relates the consequences of patriarchal and oppressively offensive behaviour towards a woman.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:31 PM

Mike the other young man was Will Seaward. Both Paul and him sang some cracking traditional shanties with a passion and what made it so good was the fact that they were under 25.
John Blanks sang some lovely songs including a smashing traditional song called Annachie Gordon (Hope I spelt that correct) as well as a brand new song written for the Polish War Veterans who served at Faldingworth during the second world war (written by Mark Addison tune by John Blanks. I had the honour and privelage to visit the last Polish war veteran living in Lincoln thsi week to let him give his blessing for the song. It was so humbling meeting him.
Wild Wolds Women did a smashing set (lovely talented ladies)
What can one say about George Papvgeris - just plain excellent and what a songwriter.
I counted 16 mudcatters (out of the audinec of nigh on 60) at the event and we all had a very nice evening and enjoyed our company very much. Thats what its about.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:31 PM

Dear Countess...if you have little love in your life...try spreading some of your own around and you may be amazed at what you get back...even from those men who you suggest are 'sexist' because they appreciate the beauty of some women. If I find a woman attractive that makes me sexist....I suppose if I find a woman of the ethnic minorities attractive I must be sexist and racist eh? What a load of old rubbish. Please consider what your own attitudes in your posts are showing the 'Mudcat public' in general Countess. It would appear that you are the one who is sexist. I think perhaps it is time for all involved in this counter productive thread to lighten up.......and I don't believe Folk Clubs are collapsing at all....many are growing...including Les Worrals (the Villans) Faldingworth Live...where I have just been party to a great evenings entertainment with George Papavgeris as top of the bill and those gorgeous Wild Wolds Women (sorry Countess but you see...they are!!!!!!)John Blanks and Paul Young and his friend (sorry don't know his name) Excellent evening all round. Great Club and can't wait for Gainsborough on Friday...yet another Club that is far from collapsing.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 May 07 - 05:24 PM

I think it is that the decline in over all numbers of clubs is in fact because those that remain (at least in my part of the world) retain all the best elements that were perhaps only single elements in a lot of the earlier clubs.

There used to be several clubs that specialised in a particular type or style (blues,trad whatever) and now down here in Sussex the remaining 5 or 6 clubs will all at different times put on representatives from across the spectrum.

Dave

(and Joe I think you can see where the bickering originates)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 May 07 - 05:09 PM

I manage to get to a few folk venues when I visit the UK - many of you know me as well.

To my mind there is still a good folk music scene both in the UK and the USA and I have seen an encourging number of young people showing an interest in the music over the past few years.

I came into folk late, about seven years ago, so can't say that I have any experience of the real hay days. The first club I went to folded as a result of the infiltration of a group of people who would have better suited an acoustic/open mic session. Their idea of a performance was Beatles and Oasis - the latter played and sung very badly. The closest they came to my idea of folk was 'Those Were The Days' sung with the 'appropriate' extras like trilling laughter at one point. They were clearly not interested in folk music as they talked their way through most of the other singers' pieces and they gradually bought in more of their ilk. It wasn't too long before we were told that we were no longer welcome in that pub.

In the town I lived in the folk became very insular. Everybody had their bits they would do and very rarely did more than one or two of them produce something new. It wasn't until I expanded my horizons as a result of the Mudcat that I realised what a rich vein of wonderful music was out there.

OK, in some clubs there are some who do not perform well but at least they are out there and doing it, not sitting waiting to be entertained by someone else. One advantage of the so-called 'dross' is that they might just encourage others to try their hand if they see that these people don't get run out of town on a rail. Can you imagine just how intimidating it can be to listen to a whole group of very good singers and then to be asked if you want to sing? I doubt that, if that had been the cae, I would ever have opened my mouth. For me, Folk Music is about songs being sung by people, not performers. I've heard some of the original recordings of 'authentic' folk singers and, in the opinion of some members of this forum, they probably wouldn't pass muster today.

I agree about the teeenage angst songs - heard a few of those in my time as well. Usually, those types don't stay around a folk session too long as the rest of the music is not to their taste. It also irritates me when a singer forgets the words half way through a song or stops to bemoan the fact that they forgot a verse. I'm one of what my husband calls "those f@#^%&g book people" and, if I am not totally certain I'll remember a song I haven't sung in a while or that is newly learned, the words will be there, just in case.

I agree with Joe on the turn that this thread has taken. Quite why there was a need for such unpleasantness I really don't know. It certainly became thread drift with a vengeance.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 04:40 PM

Why don't y'all get down to Sainsbury's (that's a UK supermarket) and get a free carrier bag that announces 'I'm not a plastic bag/a smug twat/an inveterate abuser of women'.
Take it down to your local f*lk club (if it hasn't collapsed).
Oh my! The hotpanted 'ladies' will be ever so impressed.
Never mind the music, it's gone to a pub we're not telling you about.
Or the bollocks for that matter.
You'll be hearing enough of that at your 'open mic'.
But we're playing and singing and stepdancing all over the tables at the *********.
Collapse of stout party? Jolly good.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 07 - 03:52 PM

"Collapse of stout party"...

The Punch cartoons with that phrase in the caption have long gone, and Punch is long gone - but cartoons and jokes haven't vanished from the earth, and that won't ever happen. They've changed, and they'll keep changing. And the same goes for the settings in which songs and music get performed and passed around, and the way we sing and play.

No need to break our hearts and our heads over it. People are always going to get together and share music and songs, as they always have. Not everyone, but enough to carry the songs and the music on down the ages, picking up stuff and discarding it along the way.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Partridge
Date: 04 May 07 - 03:43 PM

Initially I walked from this thread, read it and clicked away from it. I felt quite angry at the rudeness.

Having looked at Countess Richards contributions to this thread nay to this forum, she seems to be full of vitriol and bollocks. Shi* I hope I don't know her!

Pat x

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 May 07 - 02:52 PM

I wish I knew Joe. Unfortunately your quote;
"I thought folk music was about peace and justice and good times and enjoying being together over a pint of something or another. I thought folkies were supposed to be idealists who were out to transform the world with kindness."
with which I wholeheartedly agree, would be greeted in certain areas of the English folk scene with snorts of derision. Like others, I've battled against this attitude, but as you can see from the above thread, sometimes it's hard to be an idealist when faced with such an implacable enemy.
As we used to say; "Peace and love".
For a time we had it, but sometimes I think it's lost forever.
However, it appears to be the world we have to live in.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 02:49 PM

What was it I said several posts back about the literacy deficiency of those who skim threads, pick out one word in 19 on a good day then post entirely non-contextual bollocks?

I despair of the blusterings and squirmings that some backwoodsmalepersons stoop to in attempts to 'justify' the crass and demeaningly proprietory manner in which they perceive women. (And even more so, any woman who, apparently willingly, acquiesces to this insulting behaviour, c.f. thread entitled Best thing seen in a folk club).

Albeit, doubtless, possessors of the appropriate anatomical equipment, these aren't 'men'. I dislike them intensely and feel the utmost contempt towards them. They deserve every word and more I have directed towards them. But this is in no way makes me a 'manhater'. When an actual man is a sensitive and supportive human being, I admire him greatly (not that I expect very many on this forum to understand this).

What I have said above about venues and what occurs in them stems from experience (in a variety of capacities) spanning (ahem) around 40 years. One would have hoped that male attititudes to women, especially in a trad music environment, would have improved (Lincolnshire evidently excepted). Everyone with whom I associate musically nowadays is, fortunately, unafflicted with attitudes prevalent on this forum.

A few people on this thread know me (or at least who I am) and have acknowledged whatever small contribution I have made to the dissemination of trad music. Thank you for your support. It's a disgrace that it was necessary, but for the sake of the music, thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 07 - 02:44 PM

So, do you people have anything to say about the collapse of folk clubs, or do you feel more constructive with all your petty squabbling?

Or is it the petty squabbling that is causing the collapse? I see the same bickering and pettiness in folk clubs in the U.S. and the UK, and then I see people asking why young people don't show any interest in folk music.

I thought folk music was about peace and justice and good times and enjoying being together over a pint of something or another. I thought folkies were supposed to be idealists who were out to transform the world with kindness.

Too often, that's not the case. We can't run a folk club or an Internet music forum for very long without the bickering coming to the foreground. Why is that? What can we do to stop that trend?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 07 - 12:27 PM

I can take some things, so to speak, but:

"If I was a young person reading this, with an interest in getting involved in folk music, I'd probably decide to stick with Westlife/Muse/Beyonce/James Blunt"

is just too much, nobody on this thread needs to have to face this kind of abuse. Now lets all try to .......... Oh god I have lost the will ........ Westlife . look .........

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 May 07 - 12:26 PM

Careful EJ if you start saying nice things about her you will be attacked as a sexist!!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 May 07 - 12:10 PM

Well, the Countess certainly seems to have one strong talent ; she's unmatched at getting the knickers of quite a few Mudcat Brits in a twist. Wrong or right, I have to admire the way she handles herself. If she does as well onstage then she must be fairly entertaining! As for her language, we all need to get a "fuck" or two out of our systems on the appropriate occasion.

Lonesome Yank EJ

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 May 07 - 12:08 PM

Can't even spell her name right...one letter too many in Countess....so way she could be a countess with her demeanour.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 May 07 - 11:53 AM

GUEST,Mr Middle England,

Gasp of relief!

Thought was just me.

Anthology Countess Richard쳌fs posts, clearly a man-hater. & Doesn쳌ft enjoy others self-expression in the form of sinin쳌f together & havin쳌f a nice time!

Some samples of vocabulary include:


Bugger. Perve) bastard. Sod off crap. Bleedin쳌f + fucking!

Says it all?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mr Middle England
Date: 04 May 07 - 11:38 AM

What a very rude woman.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 May 07 - 11:05 AM

All highly edifying stuff, I'm sure.

If I was a young person reading this, with an interest in getting involved in folk music, I'd probably decide to stick with Westlife/Muse/Beyonce/James Blunt/whoever's 'in' on the pop-scene at the moment, rather than folk, on the basis that they and their followers are more mature and better behaved.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 May 07 - 10:24 AM

'Bernard Manning must have done a few club gigs in his time... '

.....well judging by some've the 'rich' language further up this thread, I guess someone must be a close adherent of his!!

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:41 AM

Well I was looking for what might have gone wrong so that we could avoid doing it again but can carry on hearing lots of good music!

.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:41 AM

Bernard Manning must have done a few club gigs in his time...

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:37 AM

Apologies. meant to type 'IF they implode', but I think, optimistically, I'll change that to 'when'.

Greg, I was wondering this too. We MUST know the bugger.
Shall we start guessing?
Erm, Mr Carthy? No, don't think so . . .

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:36 AM

Waht does sodding mean Countess?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:32 AM

Can't you people just chill & enjoy the music??

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:32 AM

. . . actually I know quite a few men who don't have that much difficulty in behaving like human beings.
Having as little as possible to do with the rest is, however, preferable.
Not that this has much to do with why clubs have collapsed (though is they implode on the patronising gits, this could be quite a Good Thing.

Memo to GS and others: READ THE SODDING THREAD TITLE BEFORE PLACING FINGERS ON KEYS.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:29 AM

Wordy claims to have done 2000 club gigs. So who might you be then? Anyvbody's who has done that many gigs will surely be extremely well-known to a lot of us. I'm always a little sceptical of claims by anonymous bad-tempered stirrers. Identifying yourself might give some credibility to your posts.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:26 AM

No man is safe whilst you are around

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . .

(What a perve)

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 May 07 - 08:23 AM

You obviously don't know Les or myself Countess...Diane....neither do we know you but it seems that you have this thing about men and use your 'sexist' suggestions as some sort of cleaning rag for your own hang-ups. No man is safe whilst you are around..that's sad because something like half the population of the world are male and you have to put up with some of them...very hard on you...I feel sorry for you. Hope your performances are of much higher quality than your posts on here and with much less 'bite' in them.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:53 AM

Probably looking after my Autistic daughter. Sometimes some things are more important in life.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:49 AM

I am not sexist CR

Being patronising is sexist, especially when the perpetrator fails to recognise it as such. Where were you when the mode of dress and behaviour of women on and offstage was being discussed, nay drooled over, by certain pathetic specimens who attempted to ridicule me for objecting to such crass, inappropriate and offensive nonsense?

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:45 AM

LOL I have two lovely daughters and a lovely wife.

I wouldn't care if you were a woman or a bloke I would still say the same about you. Its just your attitude to other decent mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:43 AM

. . . and the fact that you couldn't be arsed to read beyond the first line of my post of 07.06 is precisely what I am talking about.
I sometimes wonder about the standard of literacy of many Mudcatters who read one word in 19 on a good day then reply entirely out of context.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:41 AM

I am not sexist CR

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:38 AM

You are quite right.

Just has you clearly 'can't help' being patronising (not true, you could if you wanted),
I'll never stop criticising male sexist attitudes (for those men who require it).

I write songs about this too . . .

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:32 AM

There you go again Countess Richard, you really can't help yourself.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:09 AM

Oops, Les ain't (usually) a patronising git!
I meant (on this occasion) the Villan.
No, I don't have a 'history' with 'wordy'
Haven't a clue who it is . . . nor has he about me.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 May 07 - 07:06 AM

Patronising git.

I give out (or have done) information and speak of what I know.
It's really too bad if some (largely anonymous) loudmouths have a different agenda to push.
Not that I'm saying they shouldn't, just that to try and dismiss and obscure facts with holier-than-thou opinion is counter-productive to say the least.

It's interesting (or perhaps not) that male contributors presenting conclusions similar to my own are accepted (or at least ignored) by the mouths whereas I am hounded with irrelevant sexist crap about how they imagine that I relate (or not) to male punters and performers, to the extent that some women (not me) might be cyber-intimidated.
So the wordymouth has done 2,000 gigs? Might have seen him (I know it's a bloke) then. But he certainly doesn't know me. Indeed there are but three contributors to this thread who do and not well at that. But what I do/have done is generally known to anyone doing a minimum amount of research (or merely read the thread) and not merely content to fire off a stream of clichés that serve only to illustrate that this is precisely what has not occurred.

I have a lot to offer Mudcat? No, I haven't. I say what needs to be said from too many years of experience. Read it or not, see if I care. But lay off the ignorant sexist putdowns. Not clever or big, but most importantly, totally OFF TOPIC.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 07 - 06:38 AM

Wordy,

"Then, over the years, people got older and the Countess and her ilk emerged. Critical, puritanical, dictatorial etc, and they began to take over clubs. As most of us on here would not contemplate spending an evening with the foul mouthed woman she is, so people didn't want to spend time in venues where her type were exercising their power."

Do you two have a history? If this isn't unpleasant or invective what about:

"However, the Countesses and her ilk just depress me with their joyless,judgemental, holier than thou,"NO" shouting, profane idiocy.
Profanity is always the last resort of the inarticulate and language challenged. Her posts are no different in tone to those you can find on any football website."

You both have considerable experience not that that means you come to the same conclusions.

I suppose the medium of posts encourages us to shout the way we do in cars?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 May 07 - 06:31 AM

Wordy
>>As to me being unpleasant, I resent that.I certainly didn't use invective on this thread<<

I didn't say that did I?

I just think CR has to get a grip and stop insulting everybody. She has a lot to offer Mudcat and we would all benefit, but not if she carries on the way she does at the moment.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 May 07 - 06:24 AM

Les, I agree with much of what you say. As to me being unpleasant, I resent that.I certainly didn't use invective on this thread.
As to limited experience, I have done over 2000 folk club gigs so I too can tell it like it is, and I think this gives me some credibility.
I have never understood why people like the countess are so vicious and bilious about music or some of the people who try to make it.
No journalist worth anything at all should be as cliche ridden as the countess. "Snigger snogwriters" is just as crass as "finger in the ear" "arran sweater" etc that we hear so much of from those ignorant of the marvellous music and song the diverse world of English folk clubs offers.
And no matter what else she writes, that's my final word on this topic.

Subject: RE: Collapse of the Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 07 - 04:01 AM

Well, thanks folks (!) I have just read the 101 posts to see if I can understand why their are less folk clubs than their were in 1972 or there abouts.

This is what I suggested at the start.
1. The quality of some, many?, was low
2. Their is a limit to the number of times anyone can enjoy the cannon of "popular folk songs"
3. It was a generational thing - we all went off to have children
4. The climate of 80s Thatcherism was running elswhere
5. Punk was much more exciting and then them New Romantics?

Folk was alternative and exciting to many of the baby boomer generation. It was exciting to go to small obscure places to hear music you could never really hear anywhere else. It was also exciting to go to The Philharmonic Hall to hear The Spinners, say what you like but many of us were excited. We were also excited seeing The Copper Family and Willie Scott at Festivals. We went on to be excited by Fairport .......... I was recently excited by The Boat Band and The Duncan McFarlane Band.

As Greg says somewhere above "
It's no good saying what you think ought to have happened in history." Some people above seem to want to blame others because the didn't get the history they wanted. As Mick and Keef said "You can't always get what you want .... How does that go on?

One of the essential features of Folk Clubs is they enable people to sing or play to others with out much criticism. This results in the best and the worst, because no matter how bad you are somebody will be worse but we can all get better if we respect the songs and each other.

Countess Richard speaks from much experience and I think has it about right. Why Wordy is so personally unpleasant? This brings nothing to the discussion.

I am not sure the "Darwinian" or market place effect has done a lot for quality. Their are still boring clubs around but perhaps low attendance will see them off. One feature I have noted is that some small club audiences are made up almost entirely of floor singers.

I think we have many reasons to be cheerful, lots of great mostly traditional music on CD and at festivals, a greater variety of folk events, dances, sing arounds, sessions and so on.

So, as part of my work for "Of-folk" its time to put a few more clubs into "Special Measures". In a recent Inspection ....... Club was found to Unsatisfactory.................