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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:51 AM Hi, In "The Complete Collection of Irish Music," Volume 1 (1902) George Petrie gives a melody for the ballad "Where, were you all the day my own pretty Boy" given him from Joyce. The modern Irish adaptation of Henry my Son follows. This one is by Frank Harte, "Dublin Street Songs" listen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRVpGX9Npw "Henry my Son," Irish street ballad adapted by Frank Harte, 1967. 1. "Where have you been all day, Henery me son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one?" "Away on the meadow, away on the meadow, Make my bed I’ve a pain in me head and I want to lie down." 2. And what did you have to eat? Poison beans, 3. And what will you leave your mother? A woolen vest, 4. And what will you leave your father? A watch and chain, 5. And what will you leave your brother? A blue suit 6. And what will you leave your children? The key of heaven, 7. And what will you leave your sweetheart? A rope to hang her, * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM Hi, This "pretty boy" Irish text is from 1848. It's included in the following complete text with notes from Joyce 1909 in his Old Irish Folk Music and Songs. At the end Joyce also translates a stanza of the Gaelic version I posted earlier in the thread: 812. WHERE WERE YOU ALL THE DAY, MY OWN PRETTY BOY? This ballad, in various forms, and song to different airs, is found all over Europe. In all cases the subject of the ballad is a victim to poison. In England it is "King Henry, my son," who comes home to his mother to die of poisoned food given him by his sweetheart. (Ballad recently published by Miss Lucy Broadwood in "English Traditional Songs and Carols.") In Scotland it is "Lord Ronald" (for which see "Wood's Songs of Scotland "). In Germany it is "Grandmother Adder-Cook"; and there are versions in Italian, Swedish, Dutch, Magyar, and Wendish. We have it in Ireland also, and in two distinct versions; one in the Irish language, the other in P'nglish. The Irish ballad, as recently taken down in the Co. Roscommon by the Rev. Father John MacDermott from an old man named Rogers, has been published with an interesting notice by Dr. Douglas Hyde, in "Eriu," ii. 77. As to the English version: — I took down both words and music about the year 1848 from Peggy Cudmore, a little peasant girl of twelve or thirteen years of age, endowed with extraordinary musical taste and talent. I gave both to Dr. Petrie; and a version of the air will be found with my name in the Stanford-Petrie collection (No. 330). My copies are still among the Petrie papers, which are inaccessible to me; but I remember the following four verses and the whole of the air, which I give here, and which differs somewhat from the setting in Stanford-Petrie. Dr. Hyde informs us that a version of the English-Irish ballad was taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868: and I find the three verses he gives (in "Eriu") are almost identical with Peggy Cudmore's version. This air was first rescued and written down by me, and words and air are now brought together for the first time. I should also remark that I find, by a brief reference on a stray leaf of the Pigot collection, that Mr. Pigot had a copy of the air in one of his books; but I have not seen it. Peggy Cudmore's version here. "Where were you all the day, my own pretty boy? Where were you all the day, my truelove and joy?" "I was fishing and fowling: mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What did you get for dinner, my own pretty boy? What did you get for dinner, my truelove and joy?" "Bread, mutton, and poison : mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What will you leave your mother, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your mother, my truelove and joy?" "A coach and four horses : mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." (He goes on— as questioned by his mother— leaving various bequests to his relations, till, in the last verse, he comes to his wife, who had given him the poisoned mutton.) " What will you leave your married wife, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your married wife, my truelove and joy?" "A long rope to hang her: mother, dress my bed soon; There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." The translation of the first verse of the Irish version, as given by Dr. Hyde in "Eriu," is:— "What was in the dinner you got, my fair-haired heart-pulse and my treasure? What was in the dinner you got, thou flower of young men?" "An eel that Nuala gave me with deadly poison in it; Oh, my head! — it is paining me, and I want to lie down." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:46 AM Hi, Curiously, and as could be expected, the same modern Irish version was disseminated during WWII and it was sung on the march by men of a battalion of the Wiltshire regiment stationed at and near Devizes in 1941 (see: Lord Randal My Son by J. H. P. Pafford Folklore, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Mar., 1952), pp. 26-29.). Here's the first stanza: 1. Where have you been all day Henry my son? Where have you been all day my beloved one? Fields, dear mother, fields, dear mother O make my bed for I've pains in my head and I want to lie down. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: GUEST,jag Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM Apologies if this doesn't belong, but as the "Henry my son" variant has been mentioned is this relevant Henry my son, George Dunn, Staffordshire,1971 ? It has a different set of 'contents' to the Irish version above. When does 'Henry my son' first appear? Do we know where the stripped down 'green and yeller' parody as sung by Pete Seeger came from? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM Hi, I'll post this last Italian traditional version of "L'Avvelenato" for comparison since it has a translation: [Appendix]: Dove andashti ieri sera? by A. Martin Freeman and Lucy E. Broadwood from Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 247-248 DOVE ANDASHTI IERI SERA? SUNG BY DOMINICA PERSI (IN SERVICE). Noted by A. Martin Freeman FROM PIPERNO, ROMAGNA, ITALY, FEB. 18th, 1915. w/Music 1. "Dove andashti ieri sera, Bela brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi? Dove andashti ieri sera?" "A farla una scena, Bella brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi? A farla una scena." 2. "Chi cena fu la Variant of last phrases. A farla una scena. Dove andashti ieri sera? 2 *Che cena fu la tua? Bella brunetta, etc." "Una foglia d'insalata. Bella brunetta, etc. Una foglia d'insalata." 3 "Ch' e cena avvelanata!" [as before] "Andade a chiamra lo notaro." 4 Che t' e le fa lo notaro? "Pe' fa lo teshtamento." 5 "Che ce lassa a patto ?" ". . . ." 6 "Che ce lassa a mammada?" "Lo bastone della vecchiaja." TRANSLATION. 1 "Where did you go last night, Pretty brunette? Tell me, fresh rose, and poor little rose. Where did you go last night ?" "I went to a supper, Pretty brunette, etc. I went to a supper." 2 "What did you have for supper " [as before] "A leaf of salad." 3 "Which is a poisoned supper!" "Go and call the notary." 4 "What is the notary for?" "To make my will." 5 "What do you leave to your father?" " . . . ." 6 "What do you leave to your mother?" "The staff of old age." Asked whether there might not be different words for the refrain in the second half of the verse, the singer answered that she thought she had dictated it correctly. When asked why she said "a farla" and not "a fare una cena," she answered "Because it is past." "Patto" and "mammada" are for "tuo padre" and "tua mamma." Similarly, in another of her songs, "maridomo "stood for" mio marito." I must leave it to those who may be skilled in the dialect of Piperno, Romagna, to explain other difficulties. An obvious emendation is to read "scena" (in the sense of "cena") wherever the word occurs. But as I am not competent to edit the text, consisting of dialect infected with literary Italian, I have not touched it. -A. M. F. "L'Avvelenato" of Dr. Bolza's collecting begins: "Dove si sta jersira, Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil? Dove st std jersira?" "Sen sta dalla mia dama; Signera Mama, mio core sta mal! Sdn std dalla mia dama; Ohime! ch'io moro, ohime!" and a Venetian version, also quoted by Child, (from whose Ballads the above verse is taken), gives a very similar refrain to the second half of the stanza. Probably, therefore, Dominica Persi's repetition of "Bella brunetta, etc.," has replaced some forgotten words of the same kind as those beginning "Signora Mama."-L. E. B. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM Hi Jag, Dunn's version is a slower version than Frank Harte's but they have the same text (with variations), phrasing, form etc-- so I'd say they are the same. It's Henry in Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 69 (c. 1827). From the recitation of Margaret Bain, in the parish of Blackford, Perthshire. 1 'What's become of your hounds, King Henrie, my son? What's become of your hounds, my pretty little one?' Of the Henry name Gilchrist comments (1907 JFSS): "The occurrence of the name "King Henry" in the ballad more commonly known as "Lord Rendal" is perhaps due to a reminiscence of Henry I's death from eating a dish of lanmpreys, on his return from a hunting expedition. It seems quite possible that a story arose that the dish had been tampered with, or that the "lampreys" were euphemistically named, and hence that the king died of poison, not simple gluttony. A somewhat similar poisoning circumstance in connection with the death of King John is recorded in the old chronicle which relates that a certain monk poisoned, with the venom from a toad, a wassail-cup, of which the king drank and thereafter swelled and died. See Scott's Bordler Minstrelsy, note to "Lord Rendal." It is also imaginable that the "King Henry" referred to may have been the "Young King Henry" who was crowned in the lifetime of his father, Henry II, and died of "a violent fever and flix" while fighting against him, in France. There is a possibility that poison was suspected in his case, also; but it seems much more likely that the person who first introduced the name of Henry into the ballad had in mind the monarch who succumbed to the dish of lampreys." It's Henry in Germany late 1700s, early 1800s. See: the A version in Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856, it begins: A. Schlangenköchin. [Snake- cook] "Wo bist du denn so lang gewesn, Heinerich, mein lieber Sohn?" ["Where have you been for so long, Henry, my dear son?"] "Ich bin bei meinem Feinslieb chen gewesn, Frau Mutter mein, o weh!" ["I've been to my sweetheart's, my mother, oh my!"] * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM Hi, This is the first documented version with the Randall (Randal) name. It was collected in Suffolk and later sent in a letter dated April 19, 1775 written by Rev. P. Parsons of Wye. Child did not have the Percy Papers when he wrote Volume 1 and the headnotes to Lord Randal. Child took the Randal title from Scott who said that the common Scottish title was "Lord Ronald" as was further documented by Carpenter versions. I've taken the text directly from a copy of Parsons' letter to Percy: Titled, "Ballad," by Parsons: found ESPB in Additions and Corrections in the second volume. Parsons commented: "All the Songs that I have enclosed are Original, at least to me – That one on the other side [Randall my Son], a Friend took from the Spinning Wheel in Suffolk-" There are some minor differences: lines 13 and 16 Child inserts "the," has "sick at the heart" line 23 Child has "I have" line 41 Child has "colour" There are no hyphens in Child's transcription-- all taken out and the incorrect capital letters have been changed: Ballad 1 Where have you been to-day, Randall my Son? Where have you been to-day, my Only Man? “I have been hunting, Mother; - make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart,- fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold my head, Dear Mother make my bed “For I am Sick at heart, - fain wou’d lie down 2 What have you eat to-day, Randall my Son? What have you eat to-day, my only man? “I’ve eat an Eel, Mother; - make my Bed soon “For I am sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 3 Who gave you Eels to-day, Randall my Son? Who gave you Eels to-day, my Only Man? “My own Sweetheart, Mother, - make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 4 What was the Color of it, Randall my Son? What was the Color of it, my only man? “It was neither green, grey, blue, nor black “But speckled on the Back – make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 5 Where Shall I make your Bed, Randall my Son? Where shall I make your Bed, my Only Man? “In the Church-yard, Mother, make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c 6 What will you leave her then, Randall my Son? What will you leave her then, my only man? “A Halter to hang her, Mother – make my bed soon “For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down “Dear Sister, hold &c * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM Hi, Here are Gilchrist's comments on the Randal name (1907 JFSS): While the poisoning story itself was probably current in Europe at an early period, the following suggestions may be offered as to the reason why the name "Lord Rendal" should be traditionally connected with the ballad in England and Scotland: (1). - Randal III, sixth Earl of Chester, 1181, (died 1232) divorced his first wife, Constance, widow of Geoffrey Plantagenet, and married again, "for which sin, as many men suppose, this Ranulph [Randal] deserved to dye without issuie and to relinquish his honors unto the sonne of his sister." [The quotation is taken from The Catalogue of Hontor, 1610, an old peerage in the writer's possession]. (2). - He was succeeded by his nephew John, whose wife "was infamous for plotting to take away the life of her husband John by poison."-[Ibid.] (a). - Following upon a contemporary belief that Randal left no heir because of his sin in divorcing his first wife and re-marrying, may there not have arisen the story that a young son and heir, child of the second wife, was poisoned by his "stepmother" (i.e. the divorced Constance) at her own house, returning to his mother to die? (This would explain the "Wee Croodlin' Doo" form of the story, with its conjunction of "stepmother " and "nammy," though, at the same time, the "mammy" of the nursery version may simply have been the child's foster-mother or nurse). If, when the real circumstances had somewhat faded from memory, people wished to find a romantic reason for the fact of Randal III's leaving no heir and the earldom thus passing to his nephew, a divine judgment might be the explanation offered by the priest and the scholar, but the common folk would, I think, be much more likely to seek a human agent in the first wife, dishonoured, jealous, and revengeful, and thus to attach to Randal an already existing ballad-story. (It will be remembered that Constance's own son, Prince Arthur, had been done to death). (b). - The fact, or story, that Randal's nephew and successor to the title was poisoned by his own wife may later have become attached to Randal himself by confusion with the (presumptive) poisoning legend about Randal's young son and heir. These suggestions do not, of course, interfere with the circumstance of the Lord Randal story being current in Italy or other countries at a much earlier date. They merely aim at explaining why the hero should be called Lord Randal in the English form of the ballad. (See Chappell's Popular Music, p. 10, for an account of the services English minstrels rendered to Randal, when besieged in 12I2. This (or another) Randal seems to have been early a popular hero, for Longland describes his Friar as much better acquainted with the "rimes of Robinhode and of Randal, erle of Chester," than with his Paternoster)- A. G. G. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM Hi, Jag mentioned George Dunn's version recorded in December, 1971 and gave a link (several posts back). It was recorded by Roy Palmer and appears in Everyman's Book of English Country Songs. The sister poison's Henry which is a twist. The form and text are nearly the same as the Irish version by Harte which was also known by soldiers during WWII (see Wiltshire variant dated 1941.) Henry, My Son- George Dunn, 1971 "Where have you been all day, Henry, my son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one?" "In the meadows, in the meadows Make my bed, there's a pain in my head And I want to lie down and die." "What have you had to eat, Henry my son? What have you had to eat, my beloved one?" "Poisoned berries, poisoned berries Make my bed, there's a pain in my head And I want to lie down and die." "Who gave you poisoned berries?..." 'My sister..." "What will you leave your father?..." "Gold and silver..." "What will you leave your mother?..." "Love and kisses..." "What will you leave your sister?..." "A rope to hang her..." "How shall I make your bed?..." "Long and narrow..." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM Hi, After checking a bit, I found an earlier version (1926) of the modern "Henry My Son" version in "Songs Collected by Francis M. Collinson" in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 1 (Dec., 1946). The father gives Henry poison in this one. Here are Collinson's notes: Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry learned " Henry my son" from another child when she was a patient in a children's hospital in 1926. She says she remembered the tune because she liked it, and the words because they excited her curiosity in that Henry, having eaten poisoned berries should have a pain in his head! She has carried the song in her memory for twenty years and sang it to me clearly and with good rhythm. She was not sure whence the child came from whom she learned the song, but imagined it might have been somewhere in the Black Country. HENRY MY SON - Noted from the singing of Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry, by Francis M. Collinson. 1. Where have you been all day Henry my son? Where have you been all day, my beloved one? In the green fields, in the green fields; Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down. 2. What have you had to eat, Henry my son? What have you had to eat, my beloved one? "Oh poisoned berries; oh poisoned berries. Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down." 3. Who gave you those to eat, Henry my son? Who gave you those to eat, my beloved one? Father, dear mother; father, dear mother. Oh make my bed, etc." 4. How shall I make your bed, Henry my son? How shall I make your bed, my beloved one? "Deep, long and narrow; deep, long and narrow. Oh make my bed, etc." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:05 PM Hi, The Celtic review version of 1906 is a Welsh version that can be viewed here: https://archive.org/stream/celticreview02edinuoft#page/298 It dates back about 50 years (1856) when learned by Davies' mother. The author, J. Glyn Davies, makes some claims about the original ballad date based on some of the phrases which warrant further investigation. The translation is found at footnote 4 at the bottom of this post. Here's the text: A WELSH BALLAD J. Glyn Davies (Welsh Library, Aberystwyth) I TOOK down the following ballad and its tune from the singing of my mother, Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister. I do not know of any other instance of its existence in Wales, nor indeed of any other ballad of a similar type. It is obviously fragmentary, and must have been so when my mother heard it, for the last verse was regarded as an anticlimax pour rire. From the fairly regular distribution of stressed and unstressed syllables, I would assign the utmost age-limit of the present form of the ballad to the mid-sixteenth century[1]. The phrase 'claf iawn y w f'enaid' [very sick is my soul] I should not expect to find in Welsh popular poetry much after the close of the sixteenth century. Between metric and diction, I feel tempted to put the ballad down to the first half of the seventeenth century. In the following arrangement of words and tune, each of the first two lines is repeated : — [with music] 1. Tif fy mab anwyl ble buost ti ddoe; yn hela sgwarnogod: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely; (repeat) Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 2. O fy mab anwyl be gefist ti'n fwyd : Neidar lie sly wan[2]: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 3. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th blant : Bendith Duw nefoedd : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ; Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu. 4. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th wraig : Cortyn i'w chrogi : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ; Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu[3]. When I took down the words, some five years ago, I had hda jpysgodyn [hunting a fish] instead of hela sgwarnogod[4] [hunting hares]. Neidar lie slywan in the second verse points to a North Walian origin: to pack lly somen into two syllables would be difficult, without mutilating it beyond recognition. 1. 'O whare hae ye been a' day, Lord Donald, my son ? O whare hae ye been a' day, my jollie young man? "I 've been awa courtin : mither, mak my bed sune. For I 'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doun.' 2. 'What wad ye hae for your supper?' etc, 'I've gotten my supper:' etc. 3. 'What did you get to your supper?' etc. 'A dish of sma' fishes: ' etc. 4. 'Whare gat ye the fishes?' etc. 'In my father's black ditches:' etc. 5. "What like were your fishes?' etc. 'Black backs and speckl'd bellies:' etc. 6. 'I fear ye are poison'd' etc. 'Oh yes! I am poison'd:' etc. 7. 'What will ye leave to your father?' etc. 'Baith my houses and land:' etc. 8. 'What will ye leave to your brither?' etc. 'My horse and the saddle: ' etc. 9. "What will ye leave to your sister?' etc. 'Baith my gold box and rings:' etc. 10. 'What will ye leave to your true-love ? etc. 'The tow and the halter, for to hang on yon tree, And lat her hang there, for the poysoning of me.' There are many versions of 'Lord Randal,' and I have only access to three. Possessors of Child's large edition may be able to find closer parallels, but at any rate, there can be no doubt as to the identity of the Welsh ballad. It will be observed that the metric is practically identical with Version B, the only difference being the repetition of the second line, which I look upon as an excrescence. Verses of five lines are rare in Welsh, and of a different type from this, whereas the same Langzeile occurs in rhyming couplets, and is common in quatrain form. I am indebted to my colleague, Mr. David Jenkins, Mus. Bac, for revising my score of the curious and hitherto unpublished tune, and to my brother, Mr. G.M.L. Davies, for sending me a fresh and attested copy of tune and words. __________________________ Footnotes: 1. I hope to publish shortly an account of metrical changes in the sixteenth century, where the data for this statement will be given. 2. slywauy N. Wales metathesis of llysoweti. 3. missing 4 (translation) 1. My dear son, where hast thou been yesterday: hunting hares; mother make my bed, very sick is my soul, near its end. 2. My dear son, what hadst thou for food: a snake instead of an eel; mother, etc. 3. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy children: the blessing of God of Heaven; mother, etc. 4. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy wife: a rope to hang her; mother, etc. 5 Spoken W. for ysgyfarnogod. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:43 PM Hi, This Irish "pretty boy" version dates into the 1800s. It was given in a short article written by Joseph J. MacSweeney (The Modern Language Review, Vol. 13, No. 3; July, 1918, pp. 325-327). His source is his mother about 1912, who learned it near Blarney in the County Cork. She is also his source for Child 3. Apparently, she learned both about 50 years ago in the 1860s (see: notes for False Knight, 1912). MacSweeney comments: "I know the ballad to be current in Ireland and I give the following version exactly as I heard it:" 'Where were you all day, my own pretty boy? Where were you all day, my comfort and joy?' 'I was fishing and fowling; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your father, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your father, my comfort and joy?' 'My house and my lands; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your sister, my own pretty boy ? What will you leave your sister, my comfort and joy?' 'My carriage and four, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your brother, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your brother, my comfort and joy?' 'My boots and my spurs; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' 'What will you leave your wife, my own pretty boy? What will you leave your' wife, my comfort and joy?' 'A rope for to hang her; mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.' * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 26 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM If (as generally in this series of threads) we're exploring a ballad more broadly than just the versions collected by Carpenter, then one more that deserves mention is the odd Welsh one of which two verses were included in the Caedmon Folksongs of Britain and re-issued as the Rounder CD 1161-1775-2. In one of the verses not included on the CD but quoted in translation in the booklet, the hero leaves to his sister a sewing machine - which implies a recent origin for that version. (However the quoted Welsh words "In jian i wnio" look odd to me so I have PM'd sian, west wales to enquire.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM Hi Richard, If you can post, text/translation, that would be great. The scope of ballads on this thread are the Carpenter versions and related British and sometimes other foreign ballads. There was already a thread on US versions. We're trying to reach some new conclusions about origin and classification. In some ballads, examining the Carpenter versions are crucial to understanding the British Child ballads as a whole. The Lord Ronald (Randal) Carpenter versions are not unusual-- they confirm however, that at least in Scotland, "Lord Ronald/Donald" is the main Scottish branch-- this contradicts Child's opening remark: "Scott says that the hero was more generally termed Lord Ronald: but in the versions that have come down to us this is not so." At this point we're exploring Child 12 ballad types and we've seen several examples: The "Henry my son" ballad of the 1900s; the "pretty boy" Irish/Scotch; the "Lord Ronald/Donald" Scottish type; The English "Randal" type and a number of foreign versions which constitute separate ballad types. The "Croodlin Doo" has not been explored-- and no versions of it were found (at least I could find) by Carpenter. The question is: why in 1931 where no versions of Croodlin Doo collected in Scotland? Since the Carpenter texts have been given, we'll be moving on to Child 13 soon and I'll be assimilating the British and foreign texts of Child 12 for the next week. Any further British and other(foreign) versions of Child 12 or suggestions about ballad origin would be helpful now before we move on. There also a few Carpenter versions of the related "Tommy my boy/Billy Boy" which could be included here. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows the earliest date of "Croodin Doo"? and is it "Croodlin" or "Croodin"? I've always thought of the title as "cooing dove." Agree? Walter Scott in 1803 knew a version of it for in his notes to Lord Randal he commented, "there is a very similar song, in which, apparently to excite greater interest in the nursery, the handsome young hunter is exchanged for a little child, poisoned by a false step-mother." This version would take it back to the late 1700s or so. In 1870 Chamber's give in his Popular Rhymes of Scotland, 1870, p. 51. "Mrs. Lockhart's copy." Since Mrs. Lockhart is Sophia Scott who was Walter Scott's eldest daughter (born in 1799), could this be the same version? Scott was in Abbotsford circa 1811, his daughter would have been 12, at least. Chambers says, "This beautiful little ballad, of which the above is Mrs Lockhart's copy, as she used to sing it to her father at Abbotsford, is the same as a ballad called Grandmother Addercook, which is popular in Germany." So Chamber's concludes it's derived from the German version because of the step-mother? Comments? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM Richie > If you can post, text/translation, that would be great. As with many of the ballads in this series of LPs/CDs, the recording is a composite of one or two verses each from several singers. Here is my transcription, as accurate as I can make it, of the relevant text in the booklet, complete with what I reckon to be mistakes. There is much to be dubious about. On the recording the first line of the verse is repeated, as shown in the booklet for the translation but not shown for the Welsh. The question mark at the end of the second line in the first quoted verse clearly ought to be at the end of the first line, as it is in the next verse. If sian, west wales gets back to us she can probably offer some corrections. -------------------------------------- Eirlys and Eddis Thomas: “Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam, Pysgota, mam anwyl, o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?” “’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf, A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.” “Paliw oedd dy bysgod, mab anwyl dy fam?” “Rhai brithion, mam anwyl, o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?” (Etc.) “’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf, A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.” (Etc.) Translation: “O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son? O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son?” “Last night I was fishing, oh make up my bed, For I’m sick, I’m sick, And my heart’s on the brink of the grave.” “And what color were the fish, mother’s dear son?” “They were speckled and sparkled . . . (Etc.) Here is the rest of story (not sung here): “And what for your father?” “Five pounds.” [Pum punt.] “And what for your sister?” "A sewing machine.” [In jian I wnio.] “And what for your mother?” “A fortune.” [Ffortiwn.] “And what for your sweetheart?” “A rope to hang her.” [Cortyn iw chrogi.] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 28 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM Mary Humphreys posted the Welsh version back in 2003: Mab Annwyl dy Fam; it is also online with translation (not checked) Mab Annwyl dy Fam also in this publication Blodeugerdd Barddas o Gerddi Rhydd y Ddeunawfed Ganrif (needs cookies) (No.149 page 387) Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 11:29 AM Hi, Gr8 ty Richard and Mick. I also have Joe Heaney's version from c. 1940 (Joe sang in Irish exclusively when he was young and thought in Irish- it's on the same thread as Mick's link-- but it's unattributed there) and the 1881 version posted above which has one stanza transcribed by Joyce. I just transcribed three more German versions and have 5 total, plus three Swedish and four Italian. I'm starting to sort out the versions and have this as a preliminary sketch (in approximate chronological order): A. "L'Avvelenato" (The Poisoned") dated 1629 from a fragment printed in Verona, Italy, 1656 from stanzas quoted by Lorenzo Panciatichi. a. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, the opening three lines of "L'Avvelenato" from a blind singer named Camillo called "il Bianchino." The lines and four introductory lines were printed in Veronese broadside dated 1629. b. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, from Lorenzo Panciatichi who refered to the ballad in a "Cicalata in lode della Padella e della Frittura," recited at the Crusca, September 24, 1656, and in such manner as shows that it was well known. He quotes the first question of the mother, "Dove andastù a cena," etc. To this the son answered, he says, that he had been poisoned with a roast eel: and the mother asking what the lady had cooked it in, the reply was, In the oil pot. B. "Lord Randal" ("Randle" names, "Randal, my son") standard English, c. 1775 Suffolk- Parsons; also Scottish; American. Includes variant names of Randal. Child A, S. C. "Lord Ronald (Lord Donald)." Scottish, Scots Musical Museum, 1793, No. 327, from Bums' MS. D. "Tiranti, my Son." Child I, American, includes the "Soper" versions c. 1790s but earlier. E. "Croodlin' Doo" Scottish late 1700s a. "Wee Croodin Doo" from Walter Scott vis his daughter dated late 1700s by published by Chambers in 1870. F. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin," (Grandmother Adder-Cook), 1802 but late 1700s also "Schlangenköchin," a. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." From oral transmission in Maria's [Clem. Brentano's] novel "Godwi. Bremen, 1802." B. 2, p. b. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." 1802 Knaben Wunderhern c. "Die Schlangenköchin," from Hessen, N. Germany, published in 1838 by Kretzschmer in From: Deutsche Volkslieder mit ihren Original-Weisen. Reprinted many times including Broadwood, JFSS. d. "Schlangenköchin" from the neighborhood of Wilsnack, Brandenburg, from Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856. G. "Den Lillas Testamente" Swedish, dated late 1700s, early 1800s H. "My Pretty Boy" Irish, then American c. 1836 a. "Oh, where were you all day?" single stanza from "Poems" by Mary Boddington, 1836, p. 313. I. "Tif fy mab anwyl " (My Dear Son) Welsh c. 1856 a. "My Dear Son" Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister. J. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) Gaelic early date 1868 sung in Gaelic only a. [no title ] Dr. Hyde informs from taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868 publish in "Eriu" 1907. b. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) sung by Joe Heaney dated. c. 1940 K. "Henry, my son" ("Henery, my Son") modern c. 1900s variants Irish, English dated 1904 Sharp, 1926 Collinson. * * * * So I have A-K so far. I know there are other foreign version but Italy, Germany and Sweden have multiple versions so I'm limiting the scope to a few variants from these country. Suggestions welcome, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM Hi, This is the 5th German translation I've done and since I don't speak German, any corrections are appreciated. I'm confused about the title, Step-mother-- since there is no step mother in the text-- is the dialogue between the child and the step-mother? Alte hoch- und niederdeutsche Volkslieder: Liedersammlung - Page 272, Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844. "Stiefmutter." 1. Kind, wo bist du hin gewesen? Kind, sage dus mir! ,nach meiner mutter schwerer, wie we ist mir! 2. Kind, was gaben sie dir zu eßen? Kind, sage dus mir! ,eine brüe mit pseffer, wie we ist mir! 3. Kind was gaben sie dir zu trinken? Kind, sage dus mir! ,eine glas mit rotem weine, wie we ist mir! 4. Kind, was gaben sie den hunden? kind, sage dus mir! ,eine brüe mit pfeffer, wie we ist mir!“ 5. Kind, was machten denn die hunde? Kind, sage dus mir! ,ste sturben zur selben stunde, wie we ist mir! 6. Kind, was soll dein vater haben? Kind, sage dus mir! ,einen stul in dem himmel, wie we ist mir! 7. "Kind, was soll deine mutter haben? Kind, sage dus mir!" ,einen stul in der hölle, wie we ist mir! __________ From: Old High and Low German Folk Songs: Liedersammlung - Page 272 by Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844. "Stepmother." 1. Child, where have you been? Child, tell me! At my mother's sister's (house), How we are! 2. Child, what did you eat? Child, tell me! A broth well-peppered, How we are! 3. Child what did you have to drink? Child, tell me! A glass of red wine, How we are! 4. "Child, what did you give the dogs? Child, tell me!" "A broth with pepper, How we are!" 5. "Child, what did the dogs do? Child, tell me!" "They died on the spot! How we are!" 6. Child, what should your father have? Child, tell me! A place in Heaven, How we are! 7. Child, what should your mother have? Child, tell me! A place in hell, How we are! * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM Two versions here Jim Carroll 19(a)- "Buried in Kilkenny" (Roud 10, Child 12) Mary Delaney "What have you for your dinner now, My own darling boy? What have you for your dinner, My comfort and my joy?" "I had bread, beef and cold poison, Mother, will you dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and I long to lie down." "What would you leave your mother now, My own darling boy? What would you leave your mother, My comfort and my joy?" "I leave her the keys of treasure, Mother, will you dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and I’d long to lie down." "What will you leave your father now, My own darling boy? What will you leave your father, My comfort and joy?" "I will leave him a coach and four horses, Mother will you dress my bed soon, For I have a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "What would you leave your mother now, My own darling boy? Oh, what would you leave your mother, My comfort and my joy?" "I will leave her the keys of all treasure, Mother, dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and Wouldn’t I long to lie down." What will you leave your wife now, What would you leave your wife now, My comfort and joy?" I’ll leave her the long rope for to hang her Mother, will you dress my bed soon I have a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "What will you leave your children, Me own darling boy? What will you leave your children, My comfort my joy?" "I’ll let them follow their mother, Will you dress my bed soon, I’ve a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "Then where will you now be buried now, My own darling boy? Where will you now be buried, My comfort and joy?" "I’ll be buried in Kilkenny Where I’ll take a long night’s sleep, With a stone to my head And a scraith* to my feet." [* scraith = scraw, sod of turf - Irish] Although popular in England, Scotland and America, the ballad of Lord Randal is not often found in Ireland except in fragmentary form or in the children’s version, Henry My Son. According to the collector, Tom Munnelly, it is more common among traditional singers in Irish than in English and is one of the few Child ballads to be found in the Irish language. The handful of versions found in Ireland include an 11 verse set taken down by ballad scholar, Francis James Child, from the reciting of Ellen Healy ‘as repeated to her by a young girl in ‘Lackabairn, Co Kerry, who had heard it from a young girl around 1868. A version from Conchubhar Ó Cochláin, a labourer of Ballyvourney, Co Cork, in 1914, like Paddy’s, places the action of the ballad in Kilkenny: "Where will you be buried, my own purtee boy, Where will you be buried, my true loving joy?" "In the church of Kilkenny and make my hole deep, A stone at my head and a flag to my feet, And lave me down easy and I’ll take a long sleep." We also got it from fiddle player, storyteller and singer, Martin ‘Junior’ Crehan, a farmer from Co Clare in 1992. Mary Delaney sang it to us the first time we met her, saying "You probably won’t like this one, it’s too old." Ref: The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, B H Bronson, Princeton Univ Press, 1959. Other CDs: Mary Delaney - Topic TSCD 667; John MacDonald - Topic TSCD 653; Ray Driscoll - EFDSS CD 002; Frank Proffitt - Folk-Legacy CD1; George Spicer - MTCD 311-2; Jeannie Robertson, Thomas Moran, Elizabeth Cronin - Rounder CD 1775; Gordon Hall - Country Branch CBCD 095. (b) Irish Language version Amhran Na Heascainne ~ The Song Of Toe Eel (Lord Randal) Roud 10. Child 12. From interview with Joe conducted by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger (circa 1965) Ewan Maccoll: "You have a version of Lord Randal Joe, I've just remembered, don't you?" Joe Heaney: "I have - a Gaelic version. I'll sing that. 1 mean, you know the story of that better than I do." "Ce raibh túi ó mhaidin, a dhearthairfn ó? Ce raibh tu ó mhaidin, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Bhi me ag iascach 's ag foghlaeireacht, Cóirigh mo leaba dhom Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus ligidh dhom luí." "Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a dhearthairfn ó? Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó eascainn a raibh lub uirtbi, Nimh fuinte briiite uirthi Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidf, a dhearthairín ó? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidí, a phlur na bhfear ó?" Ó eochair mo stabia aige, Sin 's mo lair aige Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus head go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a dhearthairfn ó? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó eochair mo thrunc aige, Sin 's mile punt aige, Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tú ag do mbaithrín, a dhearthairfn d? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do mhaithrm, a phlur na bhfear d?" "Da bhfagfainn saol brach aici, D'fhagfainn croí craite aici, Ta me tinn fó mo chrof, agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a dhearthairfn d? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "O fuacht fada agus seachran, 'S oiche ar gach bothan, Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo. "Ceard fhagas tu ag do bhean phosta, a dhearthairm ó? Ceard fhagfas tú ag do bhean phdsta, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó Ifreann mar dhuiche aici; Na Flaithis a bheith dunta uirthi Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo." Translation "Where were you since morning dear brother? " Where were you since morning, flower of all men?" "I was fishing and fowling ~ Prepare my bed I am sick in my heart and let me lie down." "What did you eat for your dinner, dear brother? What did you eat for your dinner, flower of all men?" "A coiled eel With kneaded and mashed poison on it ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your daddy, dear brother? What will you leave to your daddy, flower of all men?" "The key of my stable to him. That and my mare to him ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your brother, dear brother? What will you leave to your brother, flower of all men?" "The key of my trunk to him, That and a thousand pounds to him ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your dear mother, dear brother? What will you leave to your mother, flower of all men?" I would leave to her eternal life I would leave to her a tormented heart ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your in-law, dear brother? What will you leave to your in-law, flower of all men?" "A long cold and wandering And every night in a different house ~ I am sick in my heart and 1 will be forever." "What will you leave to your wife, dear brother? What will you leave to your wife, flower of alt men?" "Hell to be her home And Heaven to be closed on her – I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." Lord Randal is a ballad found in English as well as many other European languages - the oldest dated version comes from Verona in 1629. Although the English language has been spoken in Ireland for almost 800 years, it is a remarkable fact that the tradition of singing narrative ballads, so prominent among English-speaking people, is hardly represented in the Irish-Language tradition at all. Lord Randal is however, a well-known exception and Irish -Language versions have been collected in many parts of Ireland. The story told concerning the song in Joe's locality is that the song was composed by the brother of a wealthy man, whose wife died and who married again a younger woman. The younger woman was not content with an older man and decided to murder him by giving him a poisoned eel to eat. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:16 PM TY Jim, happy birthday!
Here's another Welsh version "Mab Annwyl Dy Fam" (Your mother's dear son) from Smithsonian Folkways Folkways Records FW 6835, [1954] by Meredydd Evans (source of Mary Humphreys' version?). My translation may need some improvement. Since one of the gifts is "a sewing machine" this seems like a modern adaptation (1900s). If anyone knows any other Welsh versions please post: |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:58 AM Two more small comments on the Welsh versions. One of the bits of wording in the CD booklet that didn't look right to me was "In jian I wnio". The other transcriptions of the Welsh versions tell us that it should be "injian i wnio". The word "injian" is presumably a Welsh adoption of English "engine". Besides the obvious point about dating, I wonder whether this insertion of the modern sewing machine and five pounds into a timeless story was intended as a joke, with that whole version being something of a spoof. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM Hi, Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s. Looking for Elizabeth Cronin's text or recording (online) of Lord Rendal recorded by Seamus Ennis and other Irish or Welsh versions, TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM The Elizabeth Cronin book lists just the one verse: What did you have for your breakfast, my own darling boy? What did you have for your breakfast, my comfort and joy? A cup of cold poison, mother dress my bed soon, For there's a pain through my heart and I'd want to lie down. Source: BBC 21996 (29 Aug 54)Kennedy & Lomax According to the notes this verse is the same as v2 from Healy in Child. The notes reference a another Irish version: 2v in English + 1 in Irish from Michael Cronin (brother in law) recorded by Jean Richie and George Picklow. There are also references to articles on the song in Irish. I'll scan the page for you if you'd like. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:37 PM Hi, This version from Publications - Volume 117 - Page 181 Folklore Society (Great Britain)- 1952, reportedly was from Wales. It's dated c. 1924 and is the standard modern UK version of "Henry my Son." The following info was supplied: The version I heard was collected from a Birmingham washerwoman exactly as she sang it, grammatical mistakes and all. She used to sing it whilst possing the clothes, and brought down the posser with a violent thump at the final curse.She told Miss Silver, who collected it from her, that she had first heard it from a man who came from Wales. I should perhaps add that this version was collected very shortly before I heard it. I enclose a copy of the verse in case you would like to see it and compare it with Mr. Pafford's version. Yours faithfully, Christina Hole [Henry My Son] 1. Where have you been all day, Henery my son? Where have you been all day, my pretty one? In the fields, dear mother, In the fields, dear mother. Make up my bed — I've a pain in my head, And I want to lie down, And I want to lie down. 2. What have you been eating, Henery my son?, etc. Eels, dear mother, etc. 3. What colour were them eels, Henery my son?, etc. Green and yaller, etc. 4. Who gave to you them eels, Henery my son?, etc. My sister, dear mother, etc. 5.What will you leave your father, Henery my son?, etc. My coach and horses, etc. 6. What will you leave your mother, Henery my son?, etc. The Keys of Heaven, etc. 7. What will leave your sister, Henery my son?, etc. My curse for ever, etc. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:39 PM Richie, here's a sound recording of Elizabeth Cronin singing Lord Randall: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/elizabeth-cronin-lord-randal It's only a fragment, it seems that this was all she knew of the ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:33 PM Wow TY Kevin and Mick, You can email to Richiematt7@gmail.com if you want. Now if you or someone can explain Broadwood's two versions of "King Henry my Son" dated 1907 JFSS and 1908 English Traditional Songs and Carols, I will be grateful. They have the same melody and both are from Miss Lattimer, and are both from Cumberland however the texts are different and the ballad info is different. Two different versions? Here's the one sung by Mr. Lattimer of Carlisle learnt, very long since when he was in Cumberland, as a boy. The JFSS says "Noted by Miss Lattimer, communicated by Sydney Nicholson" but Nicholson was "organist at Carlisle Cathedral in 1905 and he turned in one or two songs from various sources" so he obviously didn't need for her to write the melody down. From: Songs from Cumberland & Northumberland by Frank Kidson, Lucy E. Broadwood, A. G. Gilchrist, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Cecil J. Sharp Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 10 (1907), pp. 39-46 King Henry my Son "Oh, where have you been wandering, King Henery, my son, [Oh,] where have you been wandering, my pretty one?" "I've been to my sweetheart's,mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and would fain lay me down." "And what did your sweetheart give you, King Henery, my son, What did your sweetheart give you, my pretty one?" "She fried me some paddocks,* mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down." "And what will you leave your sweetheart, King Henery, my son? What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one? "My garter to hang her, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down! *toads * * * * A bit baffled, which is why it takes so long to go through all the variants Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:55 PM Hi, Here are the text and notes from English Traditional Songs and Carols edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood, 1908 KING HENRY, MY SON (p. 96). Miss M. B. Lattimer, living in Carlisle, noted this fine air, which she learned in childhood, some time before 1868, from Margaret Scott (now Mrs. Thorburn), a young servant in her home. The singer came from Wigton, in Cumberland, and had learnt the ballad from her father, who died when she was nine years old. Miss Lattimer recollected only a part of the words, and completed the ballad from another version, giving the three verses used in the harmonised arrangement. Recently, however, Miss Lattimer has come into communication with the singer, and received from her the following interesting set of words:— KING HENRY, MY SON. "Where have you been wandering, King Henry, my son? Where have you been wandering, my pretty one?" "I've been away hunting, mother, make my bed soon. For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What had you to your dinner, King Henry, my son? What had you to your dinner, my pretty one t" "A dish of small fishes, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down." "What colour was the fishes, King Henry, my son? What colour was the fishes, my pretty one?" "They were black bellies and speckled bellies, mother, make my bed soon, "For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "I'm afraid you are poisoned, King Henry, my son, I'm afraid you are poisoned, my pretty one!" "Yes, mother, I'm poisoned, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your mother, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your mother, my pretty one?" "I will leave her my all— and make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your brother, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your brother, my pretty one?" "There's the best pair of horses, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your sweetheart, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one?" "I will leave her my braces to hang her upon a tree; For the poisoning of my greyhounds, and the poisoning of me." * * * * I've only included the notes about this ballad and Miss Lattimer. The text is a composite but the information given is confusing since the melodies are the same-- I suppose it's just some mix-up, or the melodies are sung the same by two different singer (since they are from the same area and same general time they could be from the same source). Broadwood makes no mention of Miss Latimer's relationship with Mr [Robert] Lattimer-- and the fact that the same melody was given twice was not pointed out. It seems that Sydney Nicholson, the organist, learned the ballad from Robert Lattimer and communicated to Miss Lattimer who wrote it down. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 08:00 PM Hi, This is Kathleen Behan's "My Bonny Brown Boy" Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition - Issue 43 - Page 16, 1991. I'm not sure why this isn't at School of Scottish Studies unless it's cause it is Irish. This is as much as I could get from Google Books. Is there more? A recording? Apparently Kathleen was born on September 18 1889, in 49 Capel Street, Dublin and was the mother of Brendan Francis Behan, 1923 - 1964. "My Bonny Brown Boy." Recorded by Hamish Henderson from Mrs. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin, dated 1956. A variation of the last stanza was sung during the interview with Henderson (see footnote). "Where have you been to, my bonny brown boy? Where have you been to, my heart's love and joy?" "To the fair o Ballytober, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your dinner, my bonny brown boy? What's for your dinner, my heart's love and joy? "Cabbage and thump, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your father, my bonny brown boy? What's for your father, my heart's love and joy? A coach and six horses, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your children, my bonny brown boy? What's for your children, my heart's love and joy? Good school and education, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "Now, where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy[1]? Where will we bury you, my heart's love and joy Put a stone at me head, and a stone at me feet, And place me in Glasnevin for to take a sleep. _____________
1. "And where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:40 PM Hi, Mr Lattimer, Broadwood's informant in 1907 was Robert Lattimer, a well-known amateur singer. From Folk Music Journal - Volume 4, Issue 4 - Page 345, 1983: Other versions of [Robert] Anderson's songs he [Sidney Nicholson] had picked up from the singing of Robert Lattimer, the best known amateur singer in Carlisle during the middle of the late nineteenth century. Lattimer was the son of a builder and contractor and ended his days, like Brown, as director of a firm. He was old enough to have seen Anderson wandering the streets of Carlisle when he was a young boy. Of the five songs in the Broadwood collection communicated by this group, three came from Nicholson alone, one came via Nicholson from the singing of Brown, and one was sent in by the Lattimer family. This is was added in the JFSS 1907: Sydney [Sidney] Nicholson has noted a number of tunes, is a great authority on Cumbrian dialect. He learnt most of his songs in boyhood from Mr. Robert Lattimer, of Carlisle, now dead. His songs here given are regularly sung by old Cumbrians. They used especially to be heard at the "Kern-suppers" which are now dying out. These took place after the last load of corn had been carried, lasted from 7 p.m. till 5 a.m., and were accompanied by much singing and dancing. The old words to the old tunes fell into disuse after Robert Anderson, the favourite Cumbrian poet, supplied the airs with verses of his own. Anderson wrote for Vauxhall Gardens, supplying James Hook, the composer, with words, in 1794 and later. Some of his songs were sung by Master Phelps in the Gardens. He issued a small volume of "Cumberland Ballads" in 1801, and a second edition a few years later. * * * * Since Robert Anderson (1770–1833), Cumbrian author, died in 1833, Lattimer must have been born around 1825. Apparently Miss M.B. Lattimer was Robert's sister [ref. Wakefield's Folk Song Competition]. Broadwood (see: https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN10%20%20&is=1#) suggests it's "from her father's singing, he learnt it as a boy in Cumbria." It's also possible Robert's Father is also Robert-- a Robert Lattimer died in Cumbria in 1844 (who could be his father). The date of the ballad if Lattimer learned it at age 15 would be 1840. According to "folk song in cumbria" by S Allan, ?2017, Lattimer was born in 1825 the exact date I had guessed: "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:24 AM Richie, here's a sound recording of Kathleen Behan's version, as recorded by Hamish Henderson: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/kathleen-behan-my-bonny-brown-boy Here are the booklet notes, but they tell us nothing about the singer, unfortunately. From "Hamish Henderson Collects Vol. 1" (2005): 15. MY BONNY BROWN BOY SF1956/1(A1). Roud 10. Child 12 Greig/Duncan 209. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin. 1956. Professor Child called this Lord Randal and gives over a dozen examples. Attempts have been made in the past to try to tie this ballad to an actual event, usually to the family of Ranulf, sixth Earl of Chester (d. 1232), but as it is known in one form or other all over Europe (Italian sets are known from c. 1630) this has never been successful. Hamish Henderson believed that this ballad, 'like many Child ballads found in Ireland', was originally from Scotland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:07 AM Sorry for posting twice, but there's another sound recording of a Gaelic Lord Randal, "Martin 'Junior' Crehan - Cá raibh tú ar Maidin" accessible here: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/music/live/annagh_CM-WC5.htm It starts at 07:50 in the recording. I'm also fairly certain that the New York singer Sara Cleveland's version has been brought over from Ireland. Her version is titled "My Bonny Bon Boy". Bon = Brown? I'm not sure. Anyways, it's a wonderful version from a great singer. There's also a couple of irish versions that were recorded from Travellers by the Song Collector's Collective: https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randal-kathleen-ward-kilconnell Kathleen Ward's version is hoplessly confused with "Son Come Tell Unto Me", Child 13, not surprising given the similar structure of the two songs. https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-kathleen-ward https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/what-had-you-for-your-dinner https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/maggie-mongins-2016-05-04 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/kathleen-explaining-the-lord https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/edward-mcdonagh-2016-05-04-1 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/willie-heaney-2016-07-18-3 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-edward-mcdonagh https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/bury-me-in-kilkenny-mother https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/unknown-singer-mammy-make-my Oh, and Frank Quinn, the singer who gave Hamish Henderson that fine version of "The False Knight Upon The Road", also had a great version of Lord Randal: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C The song starts at 06:00 in the recording. It is the only Irish text I've heard so far where the dying man is actually named Randal. All the other Irish versions leave him unnamed. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:11 AM One more I forgot, "Buried in Kilkenny", sung by Mary Delaney can be heard here: https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/buried-in-kilkenny-delaney |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM Hi Kevin, Thanks for the posts-- I fixed the Katherine Behan version. There was one stanza missing and a variant on the last line. Cleveland's "My Bonny Bon Boy" sounds like "bonny, bonny boy" although it's hard to hear the second "bonny." "Martin 'Junior' Crehan's version has no text but it's a nice fiddle rendition with a spoken description of the song. I'll ck out all the other versions today. I just went through Roud's list of 926 versions (some of them are mistakes, multiples or reprints). Roud has done a great job with his index!!! I was surprised at the number of versions collected by Sharp (over 25) in the UK. The variants are hard to sort out, but like anything you do them one at a time :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:34 PM Hi, Here's a quick unfinished transcript of the composite: Lord Randal - Kathleen Ward Kilconnell of County Galway, Ireland May 2016 Collected by Sam Lee: songcollectors.org/tradition-beare…/kathleen-ward/1 Only the second stanza is completely Lord Randal, the other are mixed with the Edward form but still use lines from Lord Randal (i.e. "fishin' and fowlin). "O Son, Dear Son"sung by Kathleen Ward of Kilconnell, known for 60 years (c.1956). 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this long summer's evening?" "I went fishin' an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy, O mamaw, O pardon me." 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die) What had you for breakfast, my darling fine one O fresh eels and slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, Fresh eels and slow poison, and I meant to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will you do with yer two little children? I'll give them to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O, to keep them company, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it there to the birds in the air, And [tell them] there to mourn for me, So mamaw pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will you do with yer dear beloved wife? I'll give her the bag and the bottle, O, to hunt the counterie, O, to hunt the counterie Then mamaw pardon me. 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps all off of their neck, And for me they'll race no more 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two race horses? I will take their bridal off their head And for me they'll race no more, Then mamaw pardon me. * * * * Thanks Mick for the corrections. I only listened to it a couple times. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM Richie - I haven't time to check this further, as I'm just on my way out, but here's my first reading of it. Mick 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this lang summer's evening?" "I went fishin an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy, O MAMAW O PARDON ME" 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die) O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O What will you do with yer two little children? I will give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR And [tell them] there to mourn for me, SO MAMAW? pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME What will you do with yer DEAR DEVIL WIFE I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE THEN MAMAW PARDON ME 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps ALL off their neck, AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you did do with your two RACE horses? I will take THE bridal off their HEAD And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE O MAMAW O PARDON ME |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:47 PM > Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s. I meant that perhaps it was meant as a joke when that version was first put together, whenever that was, some time after the invention of sewing machines. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:02 PM Hi, TY Mick-- I've made the corrections to my version (above). If anyone else would like to add suggestions for further corrections, please do. Richard, no worries. I found it rather odd and amusing that an archaic Welsh version would have a sewing machine as a gift. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:24 PM Hi, This excellent version by Frank Quinn, best known for his rendition of False Knight on the Road, uses the modern form found in Ireland and the UK in the 1900s usually with the title, "Henry My Son." Lord Randal- sung by Frank Quinn of Coalisland, Tyrone in 1958. Dub by Kennedy from Sean O'Boyle's tapes. To listen: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C 1 "Where have you been all day, Lord Randal, my son? Where have you been all day, my fair one?" "To see my love mother, to see my love mother So smooth my bed, I am sick at heart, That I might lie down." 2. "You look tired and pale, Lord Randal, my son? You look tired and pale, O my fair one?" "I'm poisoned mother, I'm dying mother So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 3. "Who give you to eat, Lord Randal, my son? Who give you to eat, O my fair one?" "A false hearted lover, a black hearted lover So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 4. "What shall I send your love when you are gone? What shall I send your love, my fair one?" "A rope from hell, mother, a rope to hang her, So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 5 "What do you leave me, Lord Randal, my son? What do you leave me, O my fair one?" "My horses and carriage, my wealth and land, mother So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:11 AM Hi, This Irish traveller version uses the standard "poisoned" stanza followed by the "will" then one burial stanza (see: Behan's version above). Online profile: Thomas McCarthy was born in the town of Birr, County Offaly, in the Irish midlands into a well respected Irish Traveller family. His grandfather was known as a “seanachie” which is an Irish term for someone with a profound orally derived knowledge of the history and families of Ireland. Thomas learnt his crafts of singing and storytelling from his mother, aunts and uncles. His extended family has a long history of musicianship and includes the well-recognised and respected Doran Brothers and their grandfather “Big John Cash”, who all played the Irish uillean (elbow) pipes. Quotes: "When I was a child my grandfather Johnny McCarthy would take us off in the wagon in the summertime to County Clare and Galway. We would go visit people who played music and sang the old songs. This tradition is called cur darekin and my grandfather was always welcome and loved anywhere he went, for people who knew him as a kind, decent and caring man." "I learnt most of my songs through my mother Mary McCarthy who was a fine singer." What Had You For Your Dinner?- sung by Thomas McCarthy 1. "What had you for your dinner now my darling boy? What had you for your dinner my comfort and my joy?" I had eels and cold poison mother fix my bed soon I have a pain in my heart, and I am tae lie down. 2. "What will you leave your father now my darling boy? What will you leave your father, my comfort and my joy?" "I leave a coach and four horses, mother fix my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down." 3. What will you leave your father now my darling boy? What will you leave your father my comfort and my joy? I leave the keys of gold treasure, mother fix my bed soon I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down. 4. What will you leave your young wife, my darling boy? What will you leave your young wife, my comfort and my joy? I leave a long rope, for to hang her, mother fix my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart, and I'd like to lie down. 5. Where will be you be buried my own darling boy Where will be you be buried my comfort and my joy In the graveyard of Kilkenny I will take a long sleep, With a stone to my head and the scratch on my feet. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:58 AM I've had a chance to listen to Mary Ward Kilconnell's version a bit more and I've got a few more changes, shown in <..> below. Also some possible alternatives, shown in {..} below. (Perhaps my worst? mishearing was devil wife for beloved wife!) Mick LORD RANDAL 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this lang summer's evening?" "I went fishin an' fowlin'; <THIS LONG SUMMER'S EVENING> O MAMAW O PARDON ME" {O MAMAW=O MAM O?} 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my <JOY> O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O What will you do with yer two little children? <I'LL> give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell <IT> unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR {IN=ON?} And there to mourn for me, SO MAMAW? pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME What will you do with yer DEAR <BELOVED> WIFE I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE {HUNT=HAUNT?} THEN MAMAW PARDON ME 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps ALL off their neck, AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you <DO> do with your two RACE horses? I will take THE bridal off their HEAD And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE <THEN> MAMAW O PARDON ME Source: Kathleen Ward Kilconnell |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM Hi, TY Mick. Here are two more transcripts from the links Kevin posted above. The first fragment is missing the first part of the 3rd line second stanza and the second transcript is complete: My Own Pretty Boy- sung by Irish traveller Maggie Mongins from County Galway, c. 2016. Learned from her mother. "Oh, where were you all day, ah, my own honey boy? And where were you all day, ah, my pride and joy? I was fishing, I was hunting, mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What had for dinner, ah, my own honey boy? What had you for dinner,ah, my pride and joy? I'd a-me poison chicken, mother, dress my bed soon, I am sick to my heart, and I want to lie down." * * * * My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh of Tuam in 2016. Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy? Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy? I was a-fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. O what had you for dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for dinner, you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What will you do to your race horses, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to your race horses, you are my comfort and joy, I'll give one them to my dada and another to my mam, I've a pain in my heart and Iwant to lie down What will you do to your two children, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to your two children, you are my comfort and joy I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy? I'll give her a lang rope for to hang mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down, I have a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. * * * * Corrections by Mick Pierce added 8-1-18. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:32 AM Maggie Mongins corrections: I'm not sure about a mere pie, but that's what it sounds like. Perhaps someone has some idea what it might be. (meat pie?) Mick "Oh, where were you all day, <AH> my own <HONEY> boy? <AH> where were you all day, <AH> my pride and joy? I was fishing, I was <HUNTIN'>, mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "<OH> What <HAD> for dinner, my own <WEE> boy? What <HAD> you for dinner, <OH> my pride and joy? <I'D A MERE PIE, SOME CHICKEN>, mother, dress my bed soon, <I AM SICK TO> my heart, and I want to lie down." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM Having just listened to the Edward McDonagh version, I think in Maggie Mongan's the phrase might be I'd a-me pie, some chicken.... Also in v2 that Wee should be Honey as in the first verse. In Edward McDonagh's there are only a few minor corrections, shown below. Mick My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy? Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy? I was a- fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. O what had you for <> dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for <> dinner, you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you are my comfort and joy, I'll give one <> them to my dada and another to my mam I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down What will you do to <YOUR> two children, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to <YOUR> children, you are my comfort and joy I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. <> what had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy? I'll give her a lang rope for to hang <HER, OH> mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down I <HAVE> a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM 'PIE SOME' could be 'POISON'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM Sorry that's what I meant to say Steve (after listening to the Edward McDonagh version): I'd a-me poison chicken (or even I'd (m) eat poison chicken) I think listening to these has inspired me to do a version tonight (at Kiveton); haven't time to learn one of these but I did used to sing Jeannie Robertson's Lord Donald My Son and I think I can remember that!. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:45 AM Hi, TY Mick and Steve, "pie some" is probably "poison" and I'll make the corrections to my version above, I have this to report on the two Broadwood versions from Cumbria titled "King Henry My Son." According to "Folk song in Cumbria" by S. Allan, 2017, "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century." This is the exact birth date I had guessed and knew he had died before his version was published in 1907. Miss M. B. Lattimer, the transcriber of the 1907 JFSS version is Robert's younger sister (no date on her birth yet). Robert's version was learned by organist Sydney Nicholson and communicated to Miss Lattimer. I've dated this version c. 1840 since it was learned by Robert when he was a boy. The 1908 version is also given by Miss Lattimer but was taken from another source before 1868. Later, Miss Lattimer received addition text from the informant, Margaret Scott. However, the melody is the same for both. Since they are local versions, both informants could have sung the same melody but it's more likely that Lattimer's melody was used twice. Broadwood did not provide this source information. Motherwell gives a Scottish version about 1827 titled "King Henry My Son." which is Child C, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 18 - 01:59 PM Hi, There are four versions of the Welsh Lord Randal, "O Fy Mab Anwyl," in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first is the version in Celtic Review (posted in this thread above) but the other versions I can't get and have only been able to get the notes to one version: "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth." Here's a link to the article: https://books.google.com/books?id=IFsvAQAAIAAJ&q=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&dq=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkybeWtszc Since it's "snippet view" you can find parts of the article and texts if you know what to search for. You can pull entire versions-- as I've pulled the entire first version from there but it's a version we already have in this thread. Can anyone find a "read" version, either on Google or internet archive? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 01 Aug 18 - 02:58 PM Richie - I can't find a version online, but google says their copies come from U.Indiana and U.California, maybe you can get a copy from one of them. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 01 Aug 18 - 03:07 PM Btw, have you seen this article Ballad implosions and Welsh folk stanzas (2001) by Prof. E. Wyn James. The book by Constantine Ballads In Wales (1999) isn't available on amazon or abebooks in uk, but there is a copy for $11 on amazonus: Ballads in Wales Mick |
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