50th and last Sidmouth festival?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:31 AM

I assume that when attending fringe events Shambles puts a reasonable contribution in the collecting tins that go round. (I'm not being sarcastic here, I am sure he does.) Many people do, quite a lot don't, especially when it comes to the outdoor stuff, like the prom and the dance displays

Many of those in Sidmouth during that week, are not attracted by the folk music at all but by the fact that their are lots of people gathered. People like the buskers and street traders, whilst adding to the overall colour, have not been generally encouraged by either the organsers, the council or the local businesses. For obvious reasons.

This has lead to a general official view that has distanced the featival proper from the town and to the feeling that the town is full of free-loaders who make no contribution to the festival.

Rightly or wrongly this has lead to a situation where largely the town-based finge musical activities do occur almost separate from the official festival. I am sure that many would continue whatever future form the festival may take. I am not sure if this fairly recent move out of town has been intentional on the part of the current organisers but because of this - it is difficult to see how (or indeed why) those in the town should be expected to pay for and support official events that they do not attend out of the town.

But it has created a great mix and the seafront and lots of pubs where folk are largely free to make their own music. The pubs in particular are now largely free of official events, This I would suggest is a good thing. Many other festivals (over) organise offical event in the few pubs that are available for informal get-togethers, to the general detriment of the whole event. So that folk cannot find anywhere to play together infomally.

This is not the case at Sidmouth, Many of those that make music and attend these events are also attending and contributing to the offical festival events and none of them are to be blamed for the problems currently facing the current festval organisers. We could all contibute more. I wonder why those who gain most benefit from the official events would expect those that do not, to subsidise them? Rather than contributing more (in the form of increased ticket prices) themselves.

This is what I refer to when I talk of the divisive nature of the PR. It has everyone blaming everyone else.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:25 AM

Just as an aside - I did offer to get any suggestions back to the organisers at Mrs Casey - I also asked for any camp site comments to be sent to me as a pm - I have the means - I am not employed by Mrs Casey BTW.

Comparison to other Festivals is spurious - as we have just heard about Cambridge and the need for sponsorship there - 'the arts' in general have always needded sponsorship, and still do, at the risk of starting another 'row' look how much Covent Garden and ENO take each year!

Obvious comments relating to local chamber of commerce obviously have been tried I know - you can't run anything on this scale and not tap in to all available resource. That is the point that is made in the original script 'East Devon District Council have indicated their financial support will soon come to an end'

Talking of tents above the last time I was at Broadstairs as a booked artist they were very pleased to get their first big concert venue - what was it? - a big marquee - The camp site is not secure it is easy to slip in - there is a footpath though it! - Look at the pilfering that still goes on at Sidmouth which is as secure as possible - I am not criticising Broadstairs I enjoyed it - all festivals have their own series of problems and chacter - I also left after our work was complete - sorry - other commitments.

If this thread stands any chance of being useful other than to vent the spleen and bad mouth the festival organisation at Sidmouth it needs to keep focussed on ideas and discussions that could contribute to finding a solution.

I am please to see it has now been realised that the fringe would loose its edge too if the main festival were not there. Often the sign of a good festival is the fringe elements around it - and not just folk either.

Ticket prices - look what you get chargfed for a weekend or day at WOMAD!

Hugs to all though it is good to see a high level of interest!

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: s&r
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:05 AM

I wonder what the cost of wet weather insurance would be, and whether East Devon would pay for that cover? Or other interested parties

Stu

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:22 AM

Maybe it would not be such a problem getting wet weather insurance if the Arena area was not so affected by the weather. As I said before, it seems really obvious to me that there should be cover there.

If I was an insurance company being asked to underwrite the event, I would expect that they would not be seen to be tempting fate so much and making themselves so vulnerable to the weather.

Is it possible that the insurance would be cheaper if the risk was not so great? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me like something worth considering.

Jenny

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:41 AM

A marquee for a reception for 150 people costs around £1500 to hire (you could have 200+ audience + stage). A marquee to cover the Arena would cost - how much? £20,000? I doubt it.

I agree with JennyO: What efforts have been made to minimise weather dependency? That would reduce insurance.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:26 AM

That is the point that is made in the original script 'East Devon District Council have indicated their financial support will soon come to an end'

And East Devon Council say.

Any suggestion that the council has indicated that its financial support will soon come to an end is highly inaccurate and is strongly refuted.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:45 AM

Begining with 'wot no Sidmouth' and moving to

So now we delve in to the depths of politics, who is being more economic with the truth then whom?

I've been at meetings with 'high ranking' public officials where the pre meeting discussions were followed by a meeting that did not match those discussions and then a report later that varied from both!

It's not only a Westminster perogative to be economic in this way. Perhaps both (or all) sides are playing brinkmanship (not unusual) and perhaps one side is now begining to get movement. I don't know. I don't operate at that level but as it has got national and heavy local coverage anything could be happening behind the scenes whilst we get all airiated up front!

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:02 AM

Comparison to other Festivals is spurious - as we have just heard about Cambridge and the need for sponsorship there - 'the arts' in general have always needded sponsorship, and still do, at the risk of starting another 'row' look how much Covent Garden and ENO take each year!

Sponsership is one thing, but it is a different word from what is being suggested here. Opera, Ballet and Classical Music would not exist in their current form if it were not for the huge Government grants and subsidies. Rightly or wrongly, many people feel upset they do subsidise, through their taxes, many grand events and institutions that they do not attend and get no personal benefit from.

I think that view is highly understandable and yet it is being suggested that folk who attend Sidmouth during that week and receive little or no direct benefit from the official ticketed events, should be targeted in order to subsidise those who do? I can understand where and why this idea is held but it is not realistic or very helpful. It is frustrating that this successful and popular event does still struggle for money when so many people are attracted to the town by it, but short of charging admission to the town, the answer must be looked for elsewhere.

I am please to see it has now been realised that the fringe would loose its edge too if the main festival were not there. Often the sign of a good festival is the fringe elements around it - and not just folk either.

I am not too sure that this has been realised. I am not sure if folk realise that the Sidmouth fringe is very different. Most informal sessions etc, at are least referred to in the official programmes of other festivals. Unless things have very recently changed - the Sidmouth programme does not list the pub sessions etc and the two events tend to exist side by side, but as if in a different universe. I am not sure if the official event finished tomorrow, that it would make very much difference or if some folk in the town would even notice.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:10 AM

So now we delve in to the depths of politics, who is being more economic with the truth then whom?

I only put these two quotes in to let others decide for themselves.

From my own bitter and personal experience with local authorities, I have absolutly no doubt that the council are telling 'whopping great porkies'.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:29 AM

As has been written on other messageboards, the usual principal behind a promoters job is to risk their money in order to try to make a profit. Seeing as Sidmouth is non-profit making I can fully understand Mrs Casey not wanting to risk their own money to prop the festival up while it makes a loss. Perhaps something needs to change in the structure of the festival that makes it able to survive, rather than handing over the bill to the town.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:59 PM

so what is the first thing you would change?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:03 PM

"and receive little or no direct benefit from the official ticketed events,"

But, I suggest, they receive very significant indirect benefit. That's the reason why collecting for the Festival, and putting money in the collection, is a normal part of fringe events, and of those free events which aren't fringe, such as the processions. (What events fall into which category, fringe or free, is a moot point sometimes. In a sense "fringe" should just mean the events that aren't in the working programme, and there aren't that many of those)

I agree very much that it's a shame we have lost a number of venues in the centre - some of these have been because of town redevelopment (the Beach Store and the SWEB) or tightened safety rules (the Drill Hall), or increased costs of using them (Carinas and the Cinema). If there were a way to reverse this tendency, it'd be great. But there are still a fair number of official events happening down in the town centre.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: English Jon
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:31 PM

Interesting points raised.

If the big financial difficulty is securing the insurance, it would make sense to lower the risk as far as underwriting is concerned.

The arena is the largest of the sidmouth stages, but the only one that isn't covered over (and therefore weatherproof).

Logic would dictate that the other venues do not have the same weather dependant risk attached - Maybe downsize the whole festival a notch or two? Putting the biggest acts on in smaller venues means that they would get less potential punters (maximum capacity being a lot smaller), but a higher percentage in the event of foul weather.

Otherwise - what about staging more things at the Ham and Bowd marquees? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they are used much in the day are they?

Jon Loomes

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:32 PM

I think both the Ham and the Bowd marquees are pretty heavily used most of tne day. (And the Bowd is far too far out to be a good concert venue - the only people who'd get there would be campers.)

Bringing back the wet-weather marquee at the Arena might make a lot of sense. And they need to sort out the arrangements for stopping the walking areas turn into muddy morasses when it rains, because that is teh problem. With a brolly and a waterproof to sit in watching a performance in the rain isn't such a big deal, and the stage area is roofed in these days. But the mud is, and it's not that hard to prevent it becoming a major problem.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:25 PM

Ah yes, I remember that mud - and the experience of wading ankle-deep to get to some of the stalls. Some good drainage would fix that. And a very large marquee for the concerts. At some of our big festivals in Oz, the marquees are huge, and the sides are open anyway, so that when it is not raining, people can spill out the edges. Good one McGrath.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:55 PM

But, I suggest, they receive very significant indirect benefit.

That is probably why it is correct that the indirect method of monetary contributions via collections is undertaken from them. I hope you would agree that these folk should be able to choose to contribute or not, towards the enjoyment of those who pay to attend and directly benefit from the official events? But this method was thought not to be effective.

Some way of channeling money from the non-ticket buyers to the festival is needed. Collecting boxes doesn't really do the job.

I am not sure that this is needed or that any further increase in this approach is helpful to an all-round good festival atmosphere. The non-ticket buyers certainly contibute to the local economy and there is already a feeling in the town that the official festival organisers would wish to be able charge everyone for everything. Charging vistors for admission to the arena, is an example of what is thought by some to be a step too far. What is gained in revenue from this, is thought worth more than the further distancing of the official festival from the town and casual visitors.

It was suggested that there was a symbotic relationship between the fringe events and the official festival, and I would go along with this. I certainly don't argee with the idea expressed from some quarters that the fringe has more like a parasitic realtionship. Indeed, rightly or wrongly many feel that is the official festival that is already trying to suck their blood.

I am really not too sure either how much indirect benefit from the official festival events (other than possibly the fine company) is received by a participant in a seafront or pub session. The best things in life are free and long may they remain so. There may not be such a thing as a free lunch but many folk are not looking for one. But shouldn't you be able to sing and then eat your own sandwiches on the seafront, without someone expecting payment.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:17 AM

Back now, off line at home due to home being out of the water!

All seems reasonable today, If anyone suggested the fringe was a parasite I would ****** them. The strong fringe in my estimation shows a damm good festival behind it! I know folk who buy a sesaon ticket, camp on the festival site attned fringe events and LNE and that is it - fair enough their choice.

I think it is easy to misconstrue the Arena thing a bit

In bad weather there are no (or few) casual visitors to the town so none or not many who would pay their 5 squids to park - all day!!! - pay their site entry fee to the arena showground - some then go even further and pay to go to or stay for an evening in the arena, these are important to the festival! The Arena itself I would imagine is a part of the problem. In the wet audiences have sat on the stage itself for some performances but you can't get 3000 on there. When my children were small the Arena provided a good night out and the kids loved sitting on the grass - rolling down it as they didn't like Melanie and the woodstock memories - but they loved Rolf Harris - both times - then they were older.

A wet weather alternative may be a good idea and may help but the lack of the walk up passing trade must be a major part of the rest, even with such additions in place - the season tickets are still bought and those folk still there - although they may not come back the next year. A marketing problem which from Lynnes Thread seems not to be there this year, but one that I seems to have been thoroughly addressed after the year of the rain.

So we have - Big Arena Tent - Trust fund - More events in the town in smaller venues.

If we do some of this - where do we put the traders - and replace the income to the festival from them and maintain the income to them that makes it worth their while to be there. AND before anyone says they don't need the traders - How many of us have bought something from there - clothes music food, even if we didn't want it and always treasure it as 'bought at Sidmouth that year'!

BTW for reasons that we do not know the Bowd has not been there for 2 years now and is a great benefit to Road and camper safety as far as I am concerned, thik waht that used to be like in Rain too!

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:05 AM

I don't see any threats to us festival goers other than seriously increased prices or no festival.

When you look at the size of the Budget, the physical size of the festival and the number of Artists who perform and even sing its praises - even when working abroad! - one can only assume that all normal business and profesional channels have been followed and this is a last resort.

From where I stand there appears to be a Council / Sidmouth / Festival Organisation problem which needs to be solved and this is no doubt part of this process.

All tussles of all description include a large degree of posturing before and after I suspeect we are at the end of the first posturing pahse and ready for the battle, we will get some result eventually which will also be presented differently by all sides of the dispute.

Or am I just simple and Niaive?

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:58 AM

I think this boils down to - something in the organisation of the festival needs to change in order to sustain the current artistic programme with the current ammount of money generated. If the festival is making a loss and will bankrupt Mrs Casey in the event of a wet year, then Mrs Casey are not up to continuing to run the festival. There are other companies more than qualified to run Sidmouth, its just that they exist more in the mainstream world than in the cosy folk-clique that we all know and "love".

This is big business and it needs somebody of equal stature to run it. It does not mean the festival must "sell out" or change in ethos or outlook, it just means that the money generated has to go a bit further than it already does. I can well imagine a mainstream promotion company employing a suitable artistic director to run Sidmouth for them while underwriting its future. I personally would rather see this happen than the businesses of Sidmouth all to contribute to a 'rainy day' fund, because once that money is wiped out it all has to happen all over again. At least a bigger company is in the business of taking risks with its money.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:00 AM

Fiddler,
I agree with you but your not simple or niaive!!!.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:12 AM

Dan,


Of course you are right given the climate in which music promotion operates in Britain today. What I find wrong in this, however, is the continuing lack of government funding, in comparison to other European countries, for cultural events and especially traditional arts.

From personal experience, I know this not to be the case in Germany and France and I've heard similar reports from Spain where festivals are massive and usually charge little or nothing to punters.

Is this not just another reflection of how we in Britain (and most particularly in England) have far too little regard for our cultural heritage?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:01 AM

"where do we put the traders - and replace the income to the festival from them and maintain the income to them that makes it worth their while to be there."

I think there's a misunderstanding here - what I mean in this context, and I think what others have meant, by . "the traders" isn't the craft tent and all that, it's the local shops and pubs and restaurants and guest houses and so forth.

The stalls selling crafts and all kinds of stuff like that are a very important part of the festival, and they pay a healthy chunk of money already. I don't think they should be expecxted to ay more, and if that were to happen we'd probably lose a lot of valued people - who often turn up in other parts of the festival singing and playing and dancing. That's aside from the pleasure we all get from having a chance to buyt the stuff they are selling.

As I indicated above, I don''t really see the free events as "fringe" - mostly they are very much part of the festival, and just happene to be open to people who haven't paid in advance. That's why tmost of them are included in the working programme. When the collection box comes round, I pass it on, because I feel that my season ticket means I have paid already. If I hadn't got a season I'd automatically be putting a couple of quid in. I wouldn't see that as subsidising season ticket holders, it would just be me paying my share towards the unseen organisational costs that allow the free event to take place, and ensure that the other people taking part are there at all.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Dan Abnoramal
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:11 PM

Countess - But if I'm paying £201 pounds for a ticket and camping then I expect the ticket money to cover the cost of the event. I agree that more should be given in subsidies in an ideal world, but if you were overhauling the structure of the festival from the ground up you would make sure the revenue covered the cost of the event.

I don't think this is an impossible idea, but I do think it takes someone to be ruthless while still recognising what the "spirit of Sidmouth" is. I want someone to carefully sift the remnants of baby from the torrent of bathwater(if thats not too gory a mental picture). I think the festival should be able to stand on its own two feet if possible.

This is possible. It is I promise.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:40 PM

"in an ideal world" - in a way I feel we actually live in world that is pretty close to ideal, but with a few problems that haven't been worked out that means we often mess it up.

But that's drift on my part.
............................

Mind, we've all drifted this thread away from "what can be done to save Sidmouth?" to "how it could be better organised?" - and though that is obviously relevant, the kinds of improved organisation we've mostly been talking about aren't the things that in themselves could save Sidmouth.

The two crucial things about the crisis, as I read the situation, are:

1) The gap between costs and income (including insurance) needs to be closed, either by getting more income, or finding ways of saving money that will not reduce income and will not destroy the qualities that make Sidmouth worth saving.

2) The indications are that the present private organisers are reluctant to continue to soldier on; and it seems likely that some new organisational structure, involving a wider base and some kind of Trust, could be more viable for the future.

I'm sure that some kind of Sidmouth will continue to happen. I think it's got a momentum that will pull us through.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Phot
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:15 PM

I may be being rather simplistic, but has Sidders got to big for its own good? Big bands, big names, but where is the variety, I hate to harp back to my previous comment, it seems that the festival is focused on bands/acts that will bring in the pounds. Yes the festival must be a viable buiness, but it has lost the reason for its exestance? International! Not just a Bangra Troupe from Brum, or a Harmony Group from South Africa.

Lets get the Whole thing back together, a little less of the big names, and a lot more of what makes the folk world tick.

A team from Poland, Iceland ,Danmark(Sorry,Denmark), Spain, Bermuda, Chillie, how many small teams of traditional dancers and musicans are we missing out on? Yes, their team may not be as pro as the bigger groups, but could their version be closer to the original?

Just a thought....

Wassail! Chris

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 16 May 04 - 07:01 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:42 AM

Part of the problem is that the antis got the professional performance part of the festival (apart from the Ham marquee) moved out to the Knowle Arena and Bowd...

Phot - I'm afraid I'm old enought to remember when the Punjabi dancers came from Wolverhampton, the Polish dancers from Southampton, the Ukrainian dancers from Manchester - and the Irish dancers from Yetminster!

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:25 PM

Part of the problem is that the antis got the professional performance part of the festival (apart from the Ham marquee) moved out to the Knowle Arena and Bowd...

If the 'antis' were responsible for this - why? And what were the 'pros' doing whilst this was happening?

Has the Ham marquee also gone now?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:52 PM

I'm all for including non-local ethnic music from communities within England, alongside foreign teams. It's a recognition that we are a multi-ethnic country - but in a context where the native ethnic English traditions are all around, and valued.

I much prefer when the foreign teams (incuidngthe local "foreign" teams) are dedicated amateurs, for whom it's a holiday, in which they stay the whole week and rough it like most of the festival goers, rather than professionals dropping in for another gig on a frantic tour. Cheaper too, I'd have thought, but that's not the main reason to prefer doing it that way.

And I'd like to see the festival as it changes move away from the show-biz emphasis that has started to creep in over the years, for understandible reasons.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Phot
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:35 AM

Kitty, didn't the Polish Team all have red boots that they only wore while performing? Or am I just going daft in my old age?

Wassail! Chris

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:32 AM

Phot - I think you're right about the boots!

I think the move out of town was a combination of needing more space, and locals complaining about the noise (the LNE used to be in the Drill Hall).

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:33 AM

Imagine LNE in the Drill Hall now!

Thinking about it last night and looking at some of the replies on this thread: -

EFDSS got in to tropuble with a small festival - probably too big an overhead per ticket sale.

Mrs Caseys have driven that down by increasing the size of the festival etc. etc. etc. - like it or lump it that is a very likely scenario - It is good business.

ergo (latin)

Sidmouth should not be there at all!

Or (Not latin)

A wet weather provision (financial fund) needs to be established to ensure the survival of it!

BTW having been involved in small one day festivals - even financially supporting events before too the organisation of a week bears little or no comparison wiht the shorter events!

Finally

Think about - if your dirty and wet and probably cold for two days - what the h*ll! But if it lasts 7 Days or more what a *****!

We've got to get away form the - who is managing and wqhat are they doing and appreciate the nature of the problem more.

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:18 AM

We've got to get away form the - who is managing and wqhat are they doing and appreciate the nature of the problem more.

This is difficult as Mrs Casey tell us that East Devon Council want to reduce their contribution and East Devon Council say this is not the case.

This is the problem........

Now whoever we may choose to believe and trust more - the important thing is that these two parties do not believe or trust each other. Because of this (now public) position and brinkmanship, I am not sure that I can see much of a future for the current event.

Whatever we may appreciate, we just appear to be like a football that one party thinks the other party wishes to kick in to touch.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:22 PM

You use very selective editing and quoting on this thread Shambles, also on your u.m.f postings. You clearly have some sort of down on the festival orgainisers so to clarify your statement:

This is difficult as Mrs Casey tell us that East Devon Council want to reduce their contribution and East Devon Council say this is not the case

I would add that Mrs Casey, to my reading, have stated that the EDDC funding will come to an end, not reduce

(quote)

East Devon District Council have indicated their financial support will soon come to an end

The EDDC statement "suggests" this is not the case but my reading of the EDDC satement is that they are only providing financial support to 2005, which ties in with Mrs Caseys statement that it is shortly coming to an end. Beyond that I read that they are making no financial provision but they are looking at ways to help the festival continue beyond 2005 with "other" funding

(quote)

"The council recently commissioned an organisational development review of the festival's future, conducted by an independent consultant, which looked at how the festival might be structured and financed beyond 2004.

"The two main council decisions arising from the review, of which the festival organisers are well aware, were that: 1. The Council would enter into a limited agreement with Mrs Casey's Music for them to manage a festival in 2005 with ITS financial support comparable to that of previous years.

2. A working party should be set up to investigate the situation with regard to 2006 onwards, this to include representatives of all the major interested parties.

"So far as the council is concerned, all of its actions to date have been supportive of the festival's continuation beyond 2004. Any suggestion that the council has indicated that its financial support will soon come to an end is highly inaccurate and is strongly refuted.

"It may indeed be the case that the festival is seeking additional funding to secure its future, but this is a matter for the festival organisers and their potential patrons. In times of financial stringency, when local authorities are continually balancing provision of facilities and services with limited rises in council tax, it is the district council's duty to ensure that residents of East Devon receive best value.

"The District Council believes that the strategy it has adopted for supporting the festival and assisting the organisers to find a way forward beyond 2005 is fair to all concerned".

Personally I read that as direct EDDC financial support ending in 2005 as stated by MrsC and the EDDC will "help" the organisers find a way forward beyond that (but not financial).

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: SarahNash
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:33 PM

Practical stuff then:

1. Budgeting to assume that you will get a certain number of spontaneous bookings just doesn't make sense. I'm sure this was factored in to keep the ticket price down, but it seems to have come back to bite the organisers where it hurts. This should be kept out of the main festival budget and kept as profit. That way, you don't make a huge loss if people don't turn up on the day because of the rain.

2. So the contingency fund was wiped out in 1997 and no-one did anything about it? This seems somewhat odd to me, but I guess we're stuck with it...

A lot of people go to Sidmouth though. If everyone gave £10 to a fund, the money would be easily raised. I did post thoughts to this effect on the BBC board, but it got removed...must be radical then.

Cheers
BFB

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,DevonBoy
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:16 PM

As a former local, who's been going back to work voluntarily at the festival for the last 10 years or so, I've seen a lot of people's points of view on this festival. I know Sidmouth pretty well, and most locals with a brain know how vital the festival is to the town - it's a complete myth that they hate it. Yes, Sidmouth has a big retired community, and a few of them hate everything, but there are also a lot of normal fun-loving people in that area, and of course a number of people who are healthily indifferent to it all, and are perhaps no more than amused at all those strangers who surely wouldn't wear pewter tankards round their necks in their own high streets.

East Devon District Council are a typical rural conservative council, though, and are never going to have anything like the supportive attitude of the likes of Cambridge City Council (I believe that cambridge folk festival even gets free PAs from the council's own music venues, and has a lot of council employee's time put into it, at the council tax payers' expense).

All of the Sidmouth festival organisers work their flipping ars*s off for that week, because they love it more than anyone. To suggest that any of them are making money out of it is quite amusing - they happen to be those strange sort of people who are prepared to risk a lot in the hope of making something happen that's fun for a lot of people.

Yes, the ticket prices are high - too high for a lot of people, which is a big shame - but they have to be that high because no one will sponsor the festival. At least you can pay to go to single events if you can't afford a season ticket, which is what I always used to do.

Unfortunately, it's the distributed nature of the festival that makes it cost so much, but that's the only sort of festival you can have in a town like Sidmouth. Anyway, it's a lot more fun than Cambridge Folk Festival, which is okay for about a couple of hours, but then you get bored because it's so small, and the bands all play multiple times, and it's the Levellers yet again (I used to live next to the Cambridge festival site, so I was lucky enough to be able to go home and watch TV instead where it got really dull, and look forward to going to Sidmouth!)

Hiring lots of big marquees in separate venues, kitting them out with full PA, etc, and paying big name acts to play in them is never going to be cheap. And the health and safety stuff that now cripples all festivals is even worse for Sidmouth. Lots of people moaned when the Bowd marquee closed, but that's the festival trying to stay viable by making itself a bit smaller ..

And because the town is so accessible to Sidmouth festival ticket holders, the festival catering stalls don't have a captive market, so people aren't buying much food from them (the pubs, bakeries and Somerfields/Trumps, get all that potential income) - even half the drink consumed in the late night extra is bought from Lidl's. And of course you can't expect all those crowds of people soaking up the festival atmosphere in the town to pay, even if the organised side of the festival indirectly generated a lot of that atmosphere ..

So if it takes a shocking statement to wake up the rather selfish businesses of Sidmouth, and the council, then that's a good idea - I'm sure they are serious though, and Steve + co have put so much work into that event, so really perhaps it's only fair for them to quit when the going's good.

It will let people down with a big bump if that's it - the lovely old small festival that people like to remember, with just with a few people singing in the pubs, and with no variety in the dance events, and no capacity for late-night events, well, it might suit people who one day would like to retire there, but personally I prefer to have a bit more fun ..

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:58 PM

Let me do some between the lines interpretation!
A quote form Kevins reply

"The two main council decisions arising from the review, of which the festival organisers are well aware, were that: 1. The Council would enter into a limited agreement with Mrs Casey's Music for them to manage a festival in 2005 with ITS financial support comparable to that of previous years."

Do we take this to mean the Concil want to emply Mrs Casey (and all their Stewards and Staff to run the festival?

I can fully understand Mrs Casey's standpoint if this is the case,
EFDSS took the festival to Sidmouth!
Mrs Casey (Like them or hate them) made it work again
Now the golden egg is being stalked by someone - I for one would not be interested in Working for Sidmouth Council - I don't think -

Health and Safety and PELs are bad enough without throwing Council politics and egos in to the ring too!

Someobody please interpret this differently = tell me I am wrong and it doesn't say that at all!

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:04 PM

Having the BBC as asponser thay are only asking for the sponsership and the advertising.Why do you think they are doing what they are doing for nothing,must be joking its for the money.They have tried for several years to sponser Sidmouth but Steve has prevented this happening,one up on steve i say.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Compton
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:20 PM

How about having The Coors Brewery (got to have something BIG) Sidmouth Folk Festival/ The Esso Sidmouth Folk Festival..or anybodys's Sidmouth Folk Festival who will throw in £200,000!?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:42 AM

And just to be clear again as to what is being requested, as I read it. They are not asking for someone to throw in 200,000, regardless, but to underwrite "potential" losses of that amount, since the contingency fund and more was wiped out in the year of mud.

I'm sure that as funds allow, the festival would be building up a contingency again, reducing the underwriting requirement. It's simply that without outside help with the underwriting it's a massive risk for the current organisers.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:07 AM

I always assumed that insuring against excessive rain was an automatic part of running outdoor events in this country. It might not be cheap, but it's necessary. I've even heard of cases where the organisers actually hope for rain because they reckon they'll make more on the insurance than they would from the attendance.

Anybody in the insurance/underwriting business who understands these things better?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:04 AM

2nd guessing here, and being a sidmouth Regular, I would say the risk is probably too great (really spelled expensive) to be managed!

Thanks for that insight Kevin

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:36 AM

This is an important and informative debate – my thanks to all who've contributed so far. Having attended the festival a mere three times, I've been happy to let the Sidmouth regulars make the running until now. But I believe there's one point that needs to be given a bit more emphasis, so here goes.

SIDMOUTH IS UNIQUE!

In my experience (and in that of many others I've spoken to) there's nothing else like it on offer at present.

Lots of other festivals around the UK are very good, and quite a few are excellent. But they are all good in much the same ways. If any one of them went under, it would be a misfortune, but not a tragedy. The gap could be filled. If Sidmouth goes, then all of us - the regulars, the occasional attenders, and those who say "I must go sometime, but not this year" - will lose an opportunity that would be almost impossible to replace.

Of course Sidmouth is not perfect. Anyone who's been there tends to have at least one complaint – about the content and structure of the programme, about the facilities on the campsite, about the rather inconvenient topography of the town itself … and so on.   But I've never met anyone who didn't feel that their grievances were outweighed by the benefits of the unique Sidmouth experience. Surely this is something worth making an effort to preserve?

If a genuinely independent trust fund were set up, I'm sure that many people would be willing to chip in a few quid per year in exchange for some token benefits ( A badge? A tee-shirt? A newsletter?) The Royal Shakespeare Company has been running a scheme like this for a long time, and many other arts institutions do the same.   

Of course a bigger subsidy from local or national government, more support from the BBC, and substantial private sponsorship would all be nice. But if they can't be got, then we may have to do it ourselves. Those of us who go to Sidmouth only once a decade should be willing to put our hands in our pockets, to ensure that the festival will still be there next time we fancy attending it.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:19 PM

I agree that Sidmouth is very special.

It is far from perfect and main reason it is not, is the constant uncertainty of its future. The town, organisers and all of us deserve better than this uncertainty and division. It seems like a constant feature almost every year

If it matters, I have nothing against Mrs Casey, other than than this uncertainty. This is clear if you take the time to read the whole of this thread. I tend to view festival organisers like a football referee, if I am not aware of them, they must be doing a good job. But this job is to enable. We do not come to admire the referee and if any referee expects anything other than abuse, they are in the wrong job.

Festival organisers should not expect abuse, they do not generally deserve this. However, we do not attend festivals because of them and they should not really expect our approval. Especially as in this case, the professional organisers have placed the festival's future in doubt. Their job is to enable it and if they cannot or are not willing to manage this - they should expect a little flak. I suspect that they do expect this, even if some of their loyal supporters appear to think they can do no wrong. None of us are perfect.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:31 PM

Mike of Northumbria - Well, there is an organisation called the Friends of Sidmouth. Who were supposed to have provided someone to collect money, in an official collecting tin, at the events in the garden of the Volunteer, including the one I ran on the Monday evening last year that you attended and sang at. An interesting question is, what are the Friends of Sidmouth doing to ensure the continuing viability of the festival and how could they be helped to do more.

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,onyirtodd
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:50 PM

couple of points

1) the difficulty in running an organistion is = to the square of the distance in miles between the event and the organisers. Running Sidmouth from Matlock is (and always will be) a harder task than it need be.

2) If you are selling out your season tickets and still carrying an operating loss you have failed to grasp 1st year undergraduate supply/ demand economics.

4) If it is truly the case that the festival contributes £5M to the local businesses and you've let them keep it all, I'd be reluctant to underwrite you for the cost of a pint.

5) If you MUST write begging press releases, employ someone who knows how to do it.

There's more to running a festival than being nice guys who REALLY care about the music. Glasgow and Edinburgh (both, I submit) a bit bigger in all respects than Sidmouth haven't run a proper folk festival for many years; mainly because they didn't know how to do it.

Onny

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:18 PM

I've just re read some earlier bits of this thread = glad it is now moving away from where it was and focussing on some real issues!

Shambles you often 'get me going' you are putting out some good stuff!

Would everyone please note (now I'm gogin to be a condescending patronisong little sod)
What is really said in the press release and the info that Kevin S gave us and spot the politics and brinksmanship!

I think Mrs Casey are doing a good job - are calling the bluff of many folk - and if we (they) were the English National Opera some one would have thrown a few million at them by now let alone 200K!

I'm off to bed just been through half a bottle of wine and a good potion of port to finsh off need bed and sleep to prepare for Yorkshire - Selby at the weekend.

hugs all round again

A
XX

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:39 AM

I believe Tony Day is looking into the Friends of Sidmouth line.I believe some of the fringe parts will go on with or with out Sidmouth especially MBS in The Anchor.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: s&r
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:50 AM

It isn't necessarily hard to organise a festival at a distance - most bookings of artists and venues would be post/phone/email etc. During the festival, the organisers or their representatives need to be on site, as I believe they are. Out of interest, how and where was it organised in the days of EFDSS management?

The contribution of a festival to the local economy is a complex calculation, but a report outlining the benefits was produced for the AFO and can be seen here and is well worth studying.

The Fringe events IMO would die a death rapidly without the umbrella of the Festival proper.

Stu (who prefers Cambridge, but supports the need for Sidmouth to continue)

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:22 PM

Thanks, s&r.

A