EFDSS has a YouTube channel

Subject: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM

As far as I can tell, this hasn't gotten a mention yet here.

The English Folk Dance & Song Society has a YouTube channel where they have posted videos of various events at Cecil Sharp House, the latest being performances from the "Folk Rising" concert showcase series, featuring "new and emerging folk musicians".

FYI.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM

Been there - are 4 items, 3 big choir and one girl being fey while playing the banjo with some sidekicks - is this a fair summary?

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:36 PM

dear oh dear.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Little Robyn
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:42 PM

I guess all things have to start somewhere but I hope they can dig up some older examples. I don't like the samples so far. Where is the footage of people like Fred Jordan, Ray Fisher, or even Coppers or Kippers. Surely the archives have some treasures they could add?
Robyn

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:41 PM

If you want to suggest something to EFDSS then you need to tell them not us.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: terrier
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:13 PM

On the site, click on uploads, I counted a lot more than four items. At least they're making an attempt to publicise themselves globaly, in time it could become a very useful resource. Good luck to them.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:55 PM

Looks like certain people didn't check it out properly.

28 Items, actually. Mostly youngsters and the Community choir

Nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:20 PM

So no further visitors will be disappointed (!!) --

Actually, I was mistaken, these are not all events at Cecil Sharp House, but apparently various projects that EFDSS has been involved with, including

- Folk Rising concerts at C# House, 4 from October 2011, 3 from July 2011, 7 from July 2010

- 5 videos of the Cecil Sharp House Community Choir at A Feast of Songs and Wassails, 15 December 2010, Cecil Sharp House

- Spring Force morris/contemporary youth dance project developed with, and performed by, So We Boys Dance, the all-male youth dance group for South West England. Performance at Pavilion Dance Gala, 7 November 2010, Pavilion Theatre Bournemouth

- a Spring Force rehearsal held at Beaford Arts, North Devon, 21 August 2010

- a Spring Force performance prior to the Bournemouth gala

- a video arising from EFDSS Education's week-long youth folk music project in half term, February 2011

- 7 videos from the V&A Summer Camp, 30 & 31 July 2010, V&A South Kensington

I'm restraining myself from further editorial comments on some of the comments above.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: terrier
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:09 PM

So it's an EFDSS channel, not a Cecil Sharp House channel.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:29 PM

Thanks for the link ~ I have subscribed :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:00 PM

The channel has been there for a year, slowly building. There's some great clips of the youngsters in action and the channel demonstrates that some of the things that some Mudcatters have said ought to happen ARE actually happening.

ie. Giving youngsters an opportunity to develop their skills.
ie. Making Cecil Sharp House a bit less of a mausoleum.
ie. Providing a platform for new music and new interpretations.
ie. Using modern communications to reach out for a modern audience.
ie. a shed load of other things.

They are putting my annual subscription towards something solid and creative and hurrah for that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:10 AM

Accepted - I didn't see that the four showing were part of a larger list. I'll have another look in a bit.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

my afirst comment was a joke,Yes, its good that EFDSS has a you tube channel.
Using modern communications to reach out to audience is good, the audience doesnt have to be modern, but hopefully would have an understanding of traditional song and how traditional singers sang the songs, this is not apparant to me when i listen to the community choir, They sing in tune, they are well trained, and from a classical point of view, they sing well but they still in my opinion Sound like singers who are coming at the music from a classical perspective.
I will try and be positive, the treatment of the songs by the community choir is certainly better than Peter Pears WALY WALY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc.
In my opinion the songs chosen by the community choir do not really work, sung in this way it sounds aliitle contrived a little wooden,I am of the opinion they are suited to a more free approach,possibly unaccompanied solo singing.
I would agree with little robyn , surely there are traditional unaccompanied solo singers,[ or bob and ron coppers version of good ale] these renditions would[imo] be stylistically more appropriate
   It is good that young people have an opportunity to develop their skills.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 10:19 AM

Surely Dick, the point of the choir is not the output but the participation. I dislike the music that community folk choirs produce but that's not the point. They enjoy what they do and there are people who DO enjoy hearing what they do. They are an activity, not a documentation of the state of a tradition.

re: Robyn's point:

Where is the footage of people like Fred Jordan, Ray Fisher, or even Coppers or Kippers. Surely the archives have some treasures they could add?

It makes the assumption that there exists a systematic operation to document folk music and archive it. There is no EFDSS archive hit squad going round filming and recording people. There ARE a lot of members such as myself who variously record, film, document or support such activities. If they decide to deposit their artifacts in the VWML then it's possible that the EFDSS could disseminate them IF the relevant copyright clearances have been put in place. Should they decide to do so, it's unlikely that YouTube would be a suitable resource to use, given the copyright/ownership issues that would arise.

I've no longer any management role in the society, but it would seem to me that he EFDSS YouTube channel just allows a peek at what the society is up to rather than providing a resource. It's just an informational tool.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:27 AM

"Surely Dick, the point of the choir is not the output but the participation. I dislike the music that community folk choirs produce but that's not the point. They enjoy what they do and there are people who DO enjoy hearing what they do. They are an activity, not a documentation of the state of a tradition"
no, it is one side of the coin, the other side of the coin is the interpretation of the tradition, both your view about the participation and my statement about the interpretation are valid, likewise there are people[ME] who do not enjoy it.
but Isnt EFDSS a flagship for ENGLISH TRADiTIONAL MUSIC, so SURELY authenticity should be a criteria?.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:42 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBouEwP1WHM this is how i would do it, probaly not to everyones taste either

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:15 PM

How authentic is that guitar Dick?

(Can of worms here?)


... a flagship for ENGLISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC doesn't make much sense to me as a descriptor of the EFDSS.

The EFDSS, as I have stressed on Mudcat over the last decade +, is a membership organisation and reflects the wishes of its members. It really has no other function, despite what the rest of the world might want to wish on it.

As it happens, the members' wishes often reflect the wishes of the folk community at large and when resources permit, these wishes are rendered reality. The ones I listed above are an example.

It is not the role of the EFDSS management to tell people how or how not to play folk music, traditional or otherwise. The membership of the society will all have different ideas of how folk should be played, sung, danced, acted, presented or whatever. The Society can use its resources to enable these diverse ideas.

Hence, some people will want to sing songs in choirs and others will want to resample them and mix and remix them dance style. Whatever.

Enabling the ideas of the young would be a high priority. Enabling the participation of a larger number of people like a choir would be a cost effective (and popular) action.

Judging people on their 'authenticity' would be completely counterproductive and also possibly counter to the wishes of the membership. However, accepting recorded performances into the archive and keeping them so that future academics can tie themselves into complicated knots trying to judge their authenticity might well be within the Society's remit.

(Note: These are my own opinions and not those of the organisation.)

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM

I did not say that my version was authentic, I demonstrated how i would do it, that is completely different.
"It is not the role of the EFDSS management to tell people how or how not to play folk music, traditional or otherwise. The membership of the society will all have different ideas of how folk should be played, sung, danced, acted, presented or whatever. The Society can use its resources to enable these diverse ideas."
It is the role of the EFDSS MANAGEMENT to demonstrate how traditional singers sang songs, if it isnt what was the point of Sharp collecting all the songs,and other collectors such as Kennedy recording them,
If the effdss management do not believe it is their role to present and make available to the public [whether they be young or old and]show how these songs were sung by traditional singers, they are in the wrong bloody job.
at no point did i say that the EFDSS management should be telling people how to play folk music, I am saying it is their job to demonstrate and make available and promote traditional songs sung by traditional singers.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:58 PM

GSS wrote:

It is the role of the EFDSS MANAGEMENT to demonstrate how traditional singers sang songs, if it isnt what was the point of Sharp collecting all the songs,and other collectors such as Kennedy recording them,

No it isn't Dick. Few of the EFDSS management even sing. It's their job to manage resources.

The point of Sharp et al collecting songs was to provide a reference for people. The job of the EFDSS is to make those references available. In those terms they are already demonstrating how traditional singers sang songs. All people have to do is access the archive. I agree with those who say that better availability of archive contents would be desirable. As a member I've made those wishes known to the Society. All in good time.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM

No it isn't Dick. Few of the EFDSS management even sing. It's their job to manage resources.

The point of Sharp et al collecting songs was to provide a reference for people. The job of the EFDSS is to make those references available. In those terms they are already demonstrating how traditional singers sang songs. All people have to do is access the archive. I agree with those who say that better availability of archive contents would be desirable.
incorrect,what has the EFDSS management ability to sing got to do what with anything.
efdss should not be taking a passive role in promoting the refernces available, they should be actively promoting archive material,via the you tube channel with source singers, it is no good expecting people to just access the archives, better availabilty of archive contetns is about promoting it properly, instead of promoting community choirs.
I have no problem with letting people use c#house to do what they think fit with tradtional songs, it is not in my opinion what EFDSS should be projecting as an image via YOU TUBE

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:59 PM

Dick,

Presumably your exhaustive research has already discovered the active steps that EFDSS has taken to raise funding for digitisation and web publishing. If not, it's all apparent on the web site.

I've already indicated that the YouTube channel is probably not an appropriate place to put copyright archive material.

To the best of my knowledge, the dissemination of the archive material is in the hands of professionals who know what they are doing and are advised by people at the top of their game - ie. folks from the British Library and and the National Sound Archive. Whatever advice you are likely to proffer from your amateur standpoint as an archivist is unlikely to interest them as professionals.

The EFDSS YouTube channel is doing a job that is appropriate - end of story.

The comment about the management not being able to sing was tongue in cheek , as it seemed that you were making them personally responsible for demonstrating traditional singing and I quote....

It is the role of the EFDSS MANAGEMENT to demonstrate how traditional singers sang songs,

If that's not what you meant, why not phrase your posts with a little more care?

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:25 PM

The EFDSS YouTube channel is doing a job that is appropriate - end of story.
That is your opinion not mine.The Community choir [imo] is not stylistically appropriate, neither is Peter Pears.
It IS the role of the EFDSS management and the employees who are responsible for the you tube channel to put up stylistically appropriate material, end of story.
The EFDSS is missing an opportunity to promote traditional singers.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:35 PM

Dick, you're a stubborn old bugger aren't you.

Shall we contact the community choir and tell them that what they're doing is not appropriate and they don't belong within the EFDSS family shall we? We'll tell them that they shouldn't be represented on the channel showcasing EFDSS activity! (Dick Miles says so).

Will you be happy then?

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: KHNic
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:01 PM

Play nicely, children. There are an awful lot of people who come to sessions/ singarounds/ open mic nights &c. who have yet to hear of EFDSS. Some of them even sing traditional songs, not because they were collected and archived and arranged, but because they learned them from their parents or grandparents. Or someone in the pub. What we need to be doing is to foster environments where the singing of traditional song is not an academic pursuit but an organic process. That's why those of us who run the small clubs around the country keep putting in the effort. It sure as hell ain't for the money, prestige or thanks.

Rant over.

Nic

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:06 PM

"Folk" is not about how. It's about what and where it came from.

I reckon choirs might work pretty well (er, isn't the Copper Family sort of a choir) but for my taste (there goes another issue) the delivery might be freer and that is down to the conductor if you have to have one.

Whether they will lead into modern consumability may well be another question.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:24 PM

good points, nic,
may I point out that for many years I have been playing those small clubs singing traditional songs for little money but for the love of singing traditional songs, very often I felt I was ploughing a lone furrow.
John, I am entitled to an opinion, and I believe I have presented a logical argument,I am entitled to make a minor criticism of the EFDSS YOU TUBE CHANNEL, without AN IMPRESSION BEING GIVEN that I am some kind of folk dictator, I certainly would not be happy with your suggestion, it is up to the EFDSS to come to their senses, EVEN A TOKEN VIDEO of a traditional singer   would be more more appropriate.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:24 PM

Sorry Uncle Nic. I just can't resist rattling Dick's cage once in a while.
:-)

As far as I'm concerned, the EFDSS is not the centre of the folk universe. It's just a service organisation that is starting to get its act together (at last).

I'm just working on my radio show for next Sunday and as I do the diary it's absolutely crammed to the gills with folk events in and around West Yorkshire. They owe nothing directly to the EFDSS but possibly owe quite a lot indirectly and historically. The participants have mostly never heard of the EFDSS but why should they have?

I'm a believer in the natural transmission of our wide and diverse culture and as in the last couple of centuries, it has happened and still happens via oral, aural, published and commercial routes. The EFDSS has a small part to play in this large picture. If it crashed and burned tomorrow it would be sad but my own Ryburn 3 Step organisation, for example, would be unaffected, certainly in the short term.

Dick seems to think the Society has a large part of the responsibility within the large picture and I disagree very strongly. It has as great a part as its members want it to have and as its finance allows. Everything else is up to the likes of you and me (and we're doing quite a good job as far as I can see).

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:36 PM

Confused of Suffolk here, the youtube channel 'about' section says:
'The English Folk Dance and Song Society has, for over a hundred years, worked to record, develop and promote the folk music, dance, song and traditions of our country'

Now that's a fair assesment of my understanding of the purpose of the efdss, having watched the videos of the 'Folk Rising' A young lad (albeit very good) playing blues, a young black girl singing soul/gospel type song, and 'this is the kit' I'm afraid I don't get at all, I'm by no means a purist, I front a folk/rock band, but my question is,how do they fit with the statement above?


John

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:56 PM

I guess our culture moves forward, adding in and absorbing whatever there is to absorb.

I went to a Lau concert last night and there were all sorts of influences at work in their music including sound effects and looping. This sort of thing must happen at street level as well. Polkas, schottisches and varsoviennes were once the 'rude boys' of the culture and they're accepted as part of the tradition now, as is a lot of music hall. If the folk music, dance, song and traditions of our country are on the move all the time (which they are) then I don't see that the inclusion of black, soul, gospel, blues or any other influence in the scheme of things is a problem. Anything which is inappropriate will ultimately sink into oblivion.

It seems to me that the EFDSS is, as usual, on a hiding to nothing. If they promote the 'traddie' thing, they get insulted by the likes of Lizzie Cornish and if they don't promote the 'traddie' thing they get lambasted by the likes of Dick Miles.

If folkie stuff is happening around the country and it happens to be a bit new and innovative (maybe even healthy?) and the EFDSS support it and draw attention to it on a YouTube channel, what's the problem?

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:25 PM

Very good answer johnadams, thank you,

as I said earlier, I'm by no means a purist, but I suppose what I was getting at was that I understood the remit of the Efdss to be to preserve the english tradition for posterity, and work to promote that tradition so it does not become a museum piece, but still a living thing. My concern is that we english don't seem to have the same pride in our heritage that other cultures and ethnic origins quite rightly have and over a period of time it could be forgotton.

You are quite right that the tradition is on the move the whole time, and rightly so as we absorb other influnces from our multicultural society, but we must not lose the starting point, and my understanding was that this was the purpose for which the efdss was created.

John

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:40 PM

The EFDSS was created decades ago and as time passes I think it's objectives must be reassessed in the light of modern conditions and also modern perceptions of what 'the tradition' is or might be in the future. If Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles etc had had any notion of the multicultural internet driven world to come, their concept of the Society might have been a bit different.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:19 AM

the above is bollocks, we cannot make those assumptions.
, the facts are that the roots of english tradtional music are english traditional singers such as harry cox, sam larner,bob lewis jeff wesley,ETC they therefore should be represented on EFDSS YOU TUBE CHANNEL, , there is no reason why other things cannot be represented too, but the roots of the music should be represented.
what the traditions might be in the future [hilarious], that is jusdt a guessing game, and quite frankly Ihave no confidence in anyone to get that right, we may as well have have a seance are you there Cecil, or possibly look at the tealeaves

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: johnadams
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:07 AM



Dick, that's patently not what the EFDSS ouTube channel is for.


As to the other stuff, it's just not worth trying to discuss these things with you as you seem to be stuck in one groove, replaying the same dictatorial idea ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:32 AM

I have to admit I was totally underwhelmed by it. It doesn't appeear that anyone has really given much thought to what should be there - after almost two years in existence all there is are a few pretty crappy videos with poor sound quality. The word that springs to mind is "boring".

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:42 AM

that is your opinion it is not mine, i have nothing against modern influences or international folk music being exhibited on the you tube channel, but the roots of the music, [and that is english traditional singers] should be shown as well.
   as for classical interpretations of folk music, John Adams, let me ask you this question, would you go to a classical opera and expect to see Bob Lewis, singing in his traditional style? the answer is no, it is inappropriate stylistically, the EFDSS community choir are imo stylistically inappropriate singing traditional songs, however i could tolerate them if there were alongside thier videos, videos or audios of english traditional singers singing the very same songs.
you have attempted to shift the blame upon lizzie cornish[who has not contributed to this discussion] and me, now, because you have no case, you are accusing me of repeating the same line, your posts hint of desperation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:43 AM

sorry, leveller, my post was a reply to John Adams.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: GUEST,Baz Parkes
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:46 AM

Isn't it about time somebody mentioned what happens in Ireland?

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:00 AM

no.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:42 AM

I was looking at the site with my professional marketing hat on. I believe I'm right in assuming that the EFDSS employs a full-time marketing/advertising/coms manager. If so, that person should understand the huge power of social/viral marketing and its importance in the marketing media mix today – especially as it can be utilised relatively inexpensively. Obviously, they do not.

The first thing to consider when creating a YouTube, or any other social media site, is what you want to achieve. The second is to ensure that you have the material to do this properly. The third is how you are going to use it to maximum effect and how it fits with the other marketing that you are doing. In creating this site it appears that none of those has been considered and the result is something that, in my opinion, certainly does the Society no favours and may even be detrimental to its perception and status as a serious (but fun) professional organisation at the forefront of promoting traditional dance and song in this country.

If you're going to do it, do it well or don't do it at all, would be my professional advice (no charge).

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:28 AM

The EFDSS web site advertises a job vacancy for a marketing administrator and explains that -

"EFDSS is currently developing its strategy for the next four years...
Focus will be on:
...
• developing advocacy, lobbying and communication and information strategies;..."

and the job description contains responsibilty including-

"Social Media
• oversee EFDSS' use of social media channels
• seek out, lead on, and motivate others to use all EFDSS social media channels..."

The recently-published EDS magazine includes a flyer called "Board Matters" which outlines the new board members who joined only two weeks ago including one with experience in International Corporate Marketing and one with experience in Strategic IT Management.

John Adams was instrumental in moving the society in the right direction when he was a board member and he continues to be a great advocate. The activities of the EFDSS have grown considerably in the last few years and on-going funding from the Arts Council along with renewed board direction look set to continue this.

MtB

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: GUEST,TH Alan
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:19 PM

YouTube videos of traditional singers giving a natural performance are still uncommon. Although there are plenty of perfect recordings lifted from CDs and live stage performances of well-rehearsed songs, it's hard to find examples of older traditional "performances". I think there is a bigger barrier for YouTube than with conventional recording of "reference" material. Individuals seem relaxed about audio recording, perhaps because it is done discretely, but video cameras make people nervous and the prospect of a performance posted onto YouTube elicits a fearful, negative response among older singers. I would love to see "traditional" performances on the EFDSS site but I think it is harder to capture such reference examples than to get the "bloke in his kitchen" videos, or the stage performances. Oh that YouTube were an open-access archive of real "performances" but I fear all the best material will be kept private and restricted access –because of a visceral distrust of YouTube and not because of any copyright issue.

Subject: RE: EFDSS has a YouTube channel
From: Elmore
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:23 AM

Try Concert Window