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Criticism at singarounds

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GUEST,Craigie Hill 04 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Nov 13 - 11:07 AM
Uncle Tone 04 Nov 13 - 11:53 AM
GUEST, Poxicat 04 Nov 13 - 12:16 PM
Phil Edwards 04 Nov 13 - 12:17 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 13 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 02:47 PM
Uncle Tone 04 Nov 13 - 02:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 13 - 03:45 AM
johncharles 05 Nov 13 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 13 - 04:37 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM
johncharles 05 Nov 13 - 06:51 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 07:32 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM
The Sandman 05 Nov 13 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 13 - 09:42 AM
Uncle Tone 05 Nov 13 - 06:17 PM
Jack Campin 05 Nov 13 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 13 - 03:07 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Nov 13 - 04:05 AM
Uncle Tone 06 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM
johncharles 06 Nov 13 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 13 - 08:07 AM
Phil Edwards 06 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM
Uncle Tone 06 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 06 Nov 13 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 13 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 06 Nov 13 - 09:19 AM
Uncle Tone 06 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM
Jeri 06 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 06 Nov 13 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM
johncharles 06 Nov 13 - 02:08 PM
The Sandman 06 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 13 - 07:10 AM
The Sandman 07 Nov 13 - 10:50 AM
johncharles 07 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM
Taconicus 07 Nov 13 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Nov 13 - 12:22 PM
johncharles 07 Nov 13 - 01:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM

I think my work here is done. Thanks to all who posted supportive comments, and Dave.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:07 AM

Fare thee well, sweet Craigie Hill!


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:53 AM

@GSS

"i have been earning my living as a singer am still doing it and have got the t shirt"

Of course we only have your word for that.

Care to identify yourself so we can check bookings lists?

Tone


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:16 PM

There is some irony (probably not intended by the posters) in places above, specifically the posts by FloraG and GSS.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:17 PM

Tone - this thread spills the beans.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 01:23 PM

ok, canal wheeler is tony haynes who I have never met.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:47 PM

Sorry - that last should be "singing workshop at a festival he is involved in".
Too much of a hurry not to miss University Challenge
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:49 PM

Me? Cowardly? Unpleasant?

As you ask, and only because you ask:

I am an organiser. In case you are not sure what that means I will explain.

I was a Folk DJ on Chiltern Radio and Horizon Radio in the North London Home Counties. I got the job through the recommendation of a previous DJ, Pete Castle.

I

I ran revived and several successful folk clubs in the St Albans area, notably the Steamerfolk Club, the Beehive and the Duke of Malborough.

I ( with Colin Bargery) formed Cottonmill Clog Morris and Ramrugge Morris.

I risked my personal investment in booking artistes such as yourself, but I never booked you because have no time for arrogance.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM

Why don't you fellas drop the pissing contest and then I won't have to go in and take out any more personal attacks. Thanks.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM

This is entering the realms of fantasy,I ask for evidence about teaching diction "often interfering with accent"
and along come people accusing me of telling others how they should sing.
it is quite true I said that I did not think very much of performers who mumbled behind crib sheets, Vic Smith agreed with me,
but that has got subtly changed by rev bayes and tony haynes to "I am telling people how to sing"
    the fact of the matter is that I have been earning my living as a performer for many years, so clearly a lot of other people including many clubs that have booked me consistently over the years
Stockton, darlington [brit], faversham, swindon, four fools, lewes [sat club] billingham[wilsons club] maidenhead,aberdeen, deal,potteries folk club,cork singers club,kiveton park, saltburn bodmin, they must have all got it wrong, they clearly   have a different opinion to Tony Haynes and the anonymous guest rev bayes. by the way tony haynes runs this,
its only seven months away but no dates are available yet.   
May (Dates for 2014 not yet available)
Yorkshire Air Ambulance Folk Weekend
Sutton upon Derwent Village Hall YO41 4BN
Starring Steve Tilston plus an anthem writing competition for YAA Saturday evening. Local artists and musicians welcome Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday afternoon. Local camping and parking free. Bar by Great Heck Brewery
Contact: Tony Haynes
Telephone: 01903 762 864
Mobile: 07708 970083
Email: canaldrifter@gmx.com
Website: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0WlAUdUVmHCRlNTblBXWkZBRGM/edit


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM

WWhy don't you fellas drop the pissing contest and then "
Happily - but it's a little difficult when serious suggestions are met with personal abuse - read through the suggestions and responses.
Singing workshops have been one of my main interests since was invited to join MacColl's Critics Group in 1969.
I have amassed an archive of information on relaxation and voice exercises, song analysis that has been researched and carried out by the Group which I have always been happy to pass on when asked.
It is by no means the only work on singing carried out on singing, but it represents seven years of fairly intensive work carried out by a single group of fairly well-established singers over such a period - some of those singers, MacColl, Seeger, Frankie Armstrong.... being leading figures both in singing and in workshop training.
I don't expect expected people to fall on their faces and accept the conclusions of this work, but, as a member of a democratic forum I do expect a fair hearing, uninterrupted by personal abuse from a single individual.
The work is there for debate - such debate has been made virtually impossible by Dick's behaviour here.
Sorry folks - I have no interest in people using threads to promote themselves whenever the opportunity arises - I'm far too old for all this and it's not why I signed up for this man's army!!!      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM

so here is what has taken place.
I ask jim, for some back up evidence that someone helping another singer with their diction often interferes with accent,Jim replies with a personal attack saying that I am not fit to teach singing only fit to to encourage, then he claims he doesnt want to discuss the merits of my singing.
make up your mind jim , you have just criticised my merits, then you say you dont want to.
   then we have some anonymous troll the rev bayes, who come in with this(B) Dick, you're in no position to tell anyone to learn how to sing. I've heard you sing, and while you're not the worst there's no way you should be earning a living as a professional.
another personal attack,please note I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANYONE HOW THEY SHOULD SING, I said that good diction can be taught without losing accent., i explained how I thought this could be done, I will reiterate,
a singer meets with someone whose opinion they respect.the other person listens and points out any words that are not clear.
it is not necessary in my opinion to be a professional singing coach, all that is needed is familarity with the music and careful listening, how is poor diction rectified, it is rectified by listening until there is clarity.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:11 AM

jim,
debate has not been possible because as usual[similiar to your correspondence with keith a of hertford] you resort to personal attacks[ my merits as a workshop leader and/ or teacher and singer, instead of providing facts when you were asked to, whats new Jim, you do this all the time on this forum.
you accuse me of self promotion,you attack my ability to teach or run workshops, then you come back in saying you dont want to discuss the merits of my singing after saying that i am only good enough to encourage.
the statement of fact [which you call self promotion], has been in response to your rubbishing of me, plus tony haynes rev bayes[ cowardly anonymous troll.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:18 AM

I have seen GSS perform at Waltham Abbey FC.
He was excellent and everyone there agreed.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:45 AM

This is not about diction Dick - it is about helping singers to work on singing by positive criticism.
Who started what is immaterial - it has escalated into a slanging match, - let's stop it now and discuss the subject in hand.
This argument has all but destroyed an otherwise interesting discussion on an important subject.
PLEASE STOP IT NOW
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:17 AM

Criticising anyones singing is always problematic. Some things such as the ability to sing in tune can be judged with a degree of objectivity, other aspects of performance will be much more subjective. A singer may receive very different feedback dependent upon he type of club/setting they appear at.
This thread does illustrate one point, which is that in most circumstances people tend to be very reluctant to say anything negative about a singers performance. Whether this is a good thing is certainly a matter worthy of discussion.
Many people on this forum post videos on youtube, including some involved in this thread. Having watched a number of these I am sometimes amazed by the gushing praise for some performances which I have to say I have found pretty poor. Of course I never upset the applecart by going against the flow and being critical. It is the old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I play with a couple of friends and we do it because we enjoy it. We practice regularly and we give each other both support and criticism. We strive to be better, but as amateurs we make the occassional cock-up e.g. me changing the key without telling the others, but we are not getting paid and we do learn from our mistakes which seems to me to be a key point.
I know that to some the music/song is a matter for arcane discussion, but for me if either the listening or the playing is not enjoyable it becomes rather pointless.
john


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:37 AM

One off-on the spot, especially uncalled for criticism is not particularly helpful in my experience as it immediately puts up a defence mechanism - a singer is unlikely to take it into consideration in these circumstances.
On the other hand, if a singer asks for help, I think he or she should be prepared for comments - adverse or otherwise, on what he or she is doing, and more often than not is prepared to accept such comments in the spirit they are offered.
I cringed dozens of times when I heard singers approach MacColl at clubs, having just sung, and asking him for comments, when what they really wanted was for him to say that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
He invariably gave advice, sometimes detailed and I've overheard extremely resentful comments later - it became part of the myth that MacColl "told people how to sing".
I think it was ill-judged on his part, whatever his reasons for doing so - quick-fixes like that seldom work.
All criticisms should be balanced in a way that a singer can build on their strengths and reconsider their weaknesses - stick and carrot (presuming the singer agrees with the criticism, of course - in the end, it is they who are singing the song and it is their choice what they do with it)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM

jim.
diction is part of singing, singing is about communicating, audiences have to be able[amongst other things] to understand words
so diction comes under the category of helping singers by giving positve criticism .
i have stated a couple of times that criticism should be given in private and when asked for, it should also in my opinion, be given in a diplomatic manner, so find something good about the persons perfomance, mention it first, then come up with constructive criticism.
   i fail to see how the above comments can be construed as arrogant.
comments denigrating my charcter [ by reputation not a nice character], from people I have never met tell people more about the character of the people who make the comments.
incidentally I met MacColl on a number of occasions, on the first occasion i found him to be extremely arrogant and rude, I think he was a fine songwriter, and a good singer, although there are a number of revival singers who I would prefer to listen to, and a number of tradtional singers larner cox, bob lewis, who in my opinion are better


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM

Ultimately I think it's not how you say it but why you say it. You can dress up a put-down in sympathetic language, but it'll still be a put-down. The supportive alternative to

"Nice song, but you went flat in the chorus"

isn't

"I did enjoy that song - such a shame you went flat in the chorus"

which is just the same thing dressed up a bit. The supportive version would be more like

"Do you sing that song a lot? Is that where you usually pitch it? I was just wondering if you might want to try it a touch lower down. It can be hard to nail those high notes every time."

The real question is whether you want to help the person - in which case you'll do what it takes - or you just want to let them know they're not as good as they may think they are. The latter is probably better left unsaid.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:51 AM

perhaps Jim and GSS could exchange e.mail addresses and continue their capitalised confrontation by that means.
john


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:32 AM

"Do you sing that song a lot? Is that where you usually pitch it? I was just wondering if you might want to try it a touch lower down. It can be hard to nail those high notes every time".
spot on, that is exactly how constructive criticism should be given.      
correcting diction or even ACCENT OR IF YOU WANT DIALECT, is part of constructive criticism of singing, again the way to approach this would be for example. I really enjoyed your version of nicotine girl, but did you sing "down the wymondham way"
i might be wrong ,i am no expert but i think it is generally pronounced windham.
again this sort of thing is best done on a one to one basis, not in front of a whole club.
incidentally an example of MacColls arrogance or rudeness, the lisa turner incident, telling her or maybe even interrupting her when she was on stage, to inform her that the club had a policy that performers had to of sing songs from their own country, that sort of thing should be done afterwards and in private.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM

MacColls arrogance did not put me off booking him, because they were good performers, which in my opinion should always be the criteria, they gave an excellent night and went and stayed in a hotel


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM

"perhaps Jim and GSS could exchange e.mail addresses and continue their capitalised confrontation by that means."
Please don't associate me with this harangue any longer - I have said what I have to say on the matter and have no intention to continuing this argument with Dick, which is why I addressed my last remarks to something somebody else raised here.
Old news, if people will allow it to be - forget it.
Nor do I have any particular wish to rake over old ground in the MacColl Mythology saga - it has no place here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:57 AM

yes it does, it all relates to any criticism being made in private, whether it is criticism of choice of material, criticism of diction, or any other criticism.
the op said a matter of protocol or politeness,
something that 3 posters here have ignored, one of them being jim carroll, with his remark about the merits of me helping someone with their singing being enough to make someone go away and take up macrame.
jim, you as usual have failed to adress the point made about teaching or correcting diction, you have as is your want, then taken it upon yourself[presumably as a smokescreen] to denigrate my abilities.
when will you provide any evidence that correcting a persons diction often interferes with accent and dialect.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:42 AM

: 01 Nov 13 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:17 PM

Just returned form a village pub singaround.

Its a great pub. The beer is good and not overpriced. The performers are also well accomplished and vert friendly.

The problem is the landlord has a very strident voice and talks over almost everything, unless it his daughter who is performing. (She is a very good pianist on the pub piano.)

Because the landlord talks loudly over the singers, then so do his regulars who seem not to be interested in song performance at all.

So.... how do we criticise this situation?

I would just not go any more, but I love the pub and the other singers.

I'm very sure in days of yore (Hey, that could be a rhyming lyric!) that when somebody sang in a pub everyone else shut up and listened.

Times change I suppose.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:54 PM

Are there enough interested listeners to form a physical barrier between the singers and the noisemakers? Would they be willing to just stand there and keep the racket away?


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:07 AM

"I'm very sure in days of yore"
Used to be part of a children's rhyme in Liverpool
It went on....
Before paper was invented,
They wiped their holes on telegraph poles
And rode away contented.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:05 AM

Tone - I've experienced four different setups when it comes to the relationship between audience and folk performers:

1. Audience Listens, You Play (old-style FCs, particularly if unamplified)
2a. Audience Talks, You Play (pubs & bars who put performers on as background music, particularly if amplified)
2b. Audience Talks, You Win Them Over (like the previous, but people have come expecting to be entertained; you can get them on your side with The Wild Rover, but you'll lose them halfway through Plains of Waterloo)
3. Audience, What Audience? (if you're in the room you'll be asked if you've got a song, probably more than once)

1 and 3 are fine in my experience, but both the 2s are pretty awful. You're currently stuck in 2a. You could go for 2b, although I wouldn't recommend it - I was in a pub session once which was organised on the basis of (a) sing or play what you want but (b) entertain the rest of the room, and it wasn't ideal. Or you might have a chance of going for 3, if there's a room you can commandeer - how big is the pub? I don't think you can get to 1, though - once people get used to talking over music they don't want to give it up.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM

I did consider politely asking the landlord and his little corner of regulars to keep the noise down a bit, but I reckon that would just put their backs up. And it isn't my singaround or my local any road up.

It is a small pub, and a natural barrier does happen between most of the bar and the singers, but I reckon that makes it worse. The chatterers tend to forget we're there, then.

The best singers club I ran was the old Steamer in St Albans. It was in a large side-room, and you left it to get to the bar, so we had few interruptions and no unintended audience.

The club I'm starting in York this Sunday is a similar layout, though the room is open to the rest of the pub, but I already have the manager's promise that she will keep the bar noise down for us. Sunday's are quiet anyway.

If some of the uni students turn up, I might have to explain the acoustic etiquette to them, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:07 AM

As someone who plays in noisy pubs fairly frequently, one of the things that often surprises me is how often people who appeared to spend the whole time talking will often come up and say how much they enjoyed the music and some charitable souls will even buy us beer.
Folk clubs where silence is required and appreciation shown for the poorest of performances are the preserve of the enthusiast.
More pertinent to the thread is the fact that you probably have to do a better job in the pub to get praise than you will ever have to do in a folk club.
john


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:07 AM

Over here musicians can be among the worst culprits, though not all of them - some of them are the best listeners I know.
You do get the odd music session where they feel like a break, ask a singer up, then go to the bar and talk loudly with their mates
I'm never sure how to cope with singing sessions in public bars - many regulars are happy just to come in for a pint and the landlord is more interested in keeping them as customers than he is catering for an occasional singing session.
There is a magnificent recording made by a collector friend of ours in a public bar.
The old man had an extremely rare ballad which he was reluctant to sing at home, so he and my friend adjourned to the local, near-empty pub, with a couple of other locals and asked permission of the landlord to make a recording.
Half way through the ballad, another couple of locals came in, stood at the far end of the bar and began to talk loudly.
One of our friend's company asked them to keep the noise down, but was ignored, so the irate local strode down to the end of the bar and decked one of the culprits.
Our friend got it all down on tape and often played it at talks he gave on song collecting - he referred to it once as "balladus interruptus"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM

What pub-goers like is a bit of a lottery, though. Years ago I was at a singaround with Les (of Chorlton) in a corner of a very noisy pub, and Les did his take on The Wild Rover ("No nay never... shall I sing The Wild Rover...") As we were winding down, an hour or so later, the landlady stood us all drinks and asked if we could sing that song again, because it was one of her favourites. So we all ended up singing TWR that very night, ironically enough. I think that was the same night somebody made a request for "Ar-dee-doo-wah"; fortunately one of us knew it.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM

"balladus interruptus"

Just a similar anecdote. Our trio, "Press Gang" back in the early 70s was playing Borehamwood Folk Club at the Red Lion. The room was separate, but you could see across the bar into the public bar-room. We were singing Cyril's 'Grey Funnel Line'.

About half way through the second verse, a glass tankard was thrown in the other room, hitting and breaking the optics. The barman leapt over the bar and decked the guy who thew the glass.

A bar fight broke out by verse three.

Somebody phoned the police, who must have been close as a car turned up outside on blues and twos in verse four.

Arrests were made, and the culprits were marched out of the pub in custody during verse five, and all was quite by the end of the last chorus.

We got a standing ovation for not missing a beat! That was recorded too. Its on a cassette somewhere. I played it to Cyril. He loved it.

Tone


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:37 AM

'Over here musicians can be among the worst culprits, though not all of them - some of them are the best listeners I know.
You do get the odd music session where they feel like a break, ask a singer up, then go to the bar and talk loudly with their mates'


In all fairness Jim, same musicians have probably played through hundreds of nights while the singers sat at the bar making a racket only to demand total silence as soon as one them thought of uttering a few lines of song. Not to mention the dirty looks thrown when a musician happens to pluck a string, to check tuning or the key of a singer, or audibly puts down a pint glass on the bar.

These things have to go both ways to work well.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:59 AM

"These things have to go both ways to work well."
They do of course Peter, I'm not singling musicians out - it goes with the territory of singing in public bars - but on the few occasions where I've seen what I've described happen I've always thought it a little mercenary to use singers in that way.
Clare fiddle Joe Ryan player made an interesting comment on singing on the obituary programme for Junior Crehan, the veteran Clare musician.
As you probably know, Junior was a singer and an avid enthusiast of singing though he was better known as a musician.
Joe was asked by the interviewer what part singing played in the old sessions which took place almost exclusively in people's homes - house dances.
Joe replied that many musicians dreaded the singing, not because they disliked it, but because it always took place at the end of the evening - he said that in his and many other's other's memories, it marked the end of a good night's dancing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:19 AM

' it goes with the territory of singing in public bars - but on the few occasions where I've seen what I've described happen I've always thought it a little mercenary to use singers in that way '

I can assure you musicians bestowed with the task of providing a few tunes at a singers' night aren't generally treated any different. Which is probably fair enough, singers who have concentrated on singing and listening to other singers need to relax, have a drink and a chat and what better time than when the musicianers provide an interlude. And ditto when the shoe is on the other foot.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM

Isn't it better to keep the singarounds and the musicians' sessions separate, either different nights at the same venue or different venues on the same night?

York, and the surrounding area has several sessions and several singarounds, but I don't know of any sessions that welcome singers. I do know of singarounds where somebody offering a well-played tune in turn goes down OK, but most of the sessions frown on singers and see them as an interruption. At least one established session in York actually bans singing!

Tone


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM

I have no doubt what you are saying is true Peter, but in my experience I have met far mor singers who appreciate music than I have musiians who appreciate singing - though I wouldn't want to generalise on that.
Two stories on the hazards of public performance:
Blind Henry Blake of Kilbaha, South Clare, was the last of the big Irish Language storytellers here.
Henry lived on the Shannon Estuary and related an evocative account of the time the sailing ships travelled up and down the Shannon, when he heard the shanties drifting across the water on summer nights.
Our friend from the previous story sought him out to record - he agreed, and they adjourned to the local bar, which was empty of customers.
Halfway through one of Henry's big tales, a man came in, turned the television on and sat down to watch a football match.
Henry stood up and walked out - he never told another story.

Back in the seventies we recorded a storyteller from North Clare, Pat MacNamara of Kilshanny - Pat had a large repertoire of tales ranging from about five minutes up to over an hour in length - he also had about eighty songs.
The landlady of the local pub was kindness itself, she was around eighty, like Pat, and they had been lifelong frends.
She took the bell off the door (it was a combined shop and pub) and allowed us to record all Pats songs over a few afternoons, but when it came to his stories, she refused flatly.
She explained that in earlier years locals would gather to hear Pat tell stories, but she put a stop to it when he began to start his longest stories a short time before closing time - after this had happened half-a-dozen times she vowed she would never allow another story to be told in the bar.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM

Over here, we consider singers musicians. They just aren't always instrumentalists. And we DO have some mixed sessions.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:39 AM

I don't doubt singers appreciate music Jim. They just don't stop talking when music is being played. Musicians generally like a few songs too, they always get shushed if they dare to blink an eye. That's the whole difference. But it comes with the territory of playing or singing in pubs. Something we'll have to accept if we take part in that activity.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

Agreed Peter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:08 PM

other threads have bemoaned the decline of clubs. However, what is becoming clear is that there are many settings where Traditional
/acoustic music is welcomed: pubs, singarounds, sessions, folk clubs, open mics,etc. Everyone should be able to find somewhere to suit their own particular tastes. A cause for celebration one would think.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

In Ireland most of the singers clubs that I have been booked at are held in seperate club rooms, all the people that attend go there specifically to listen to songs, in my opinion this is the best setting for singing.
most instrumental sessions in pubs are treated by audience as places to go and chat and half listen,this is not so soul destroying for the performers[most instrumental sessions are groups of six or more] as it is for the booked song bands playing with amplification in pubs, where it is treated as background music.
I have no great desire to play in pubs in england or ireland, as a song performer where the folk club is not in a seperate room,NEW YEARS EVE IS IN MY EXPERIENCE A DEFINITE NO NON, there are of course a few exceptions.
in my opinion the best place for singers clubs is in a seperate room.
The best one i know where i have been booked regularly,is in The Spailpin Fanach in Cork City.
I live in Ireland, I have no wish to play in badly run events held in pubs where people are making a lot of noise, if that makes me arrogant, so be it, that is my choice i choose to play where i like and with people whom i like, that is why i enjoy doing it.
if i had to play in crap venues with crap people, I wouldnt bother, doing that is imo the way   to lose a love of the music, the music means more to me than that, its good music that should be treated with love ,not ignored or ridiculed or used as a background for a drunken brawl.
In the not too distant future I will be playing at one of my favourite folk clubs run by The Wilson Family in Billingham, I would rather play there with excellent singers and people with a good knowledge of the music.
I choose where I want to sing, I dont need to sing in any old badly run joint.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 07:10 AM

Found this response I gave to somebody way back - more or less sums up the "Criticism" side of the Critics Group.
Jim Carroll

Thanks for your response; the method I described seems to be the general one at present. The classes I attended (out of curiosity more than anything else) were given by ******   ****** ****** ****** I have to say I got nothing from any of them and in ****** class (which was probably the best of them) we had the added obstacle of singing in a language most of us did not understand (Irish).
As singing classes seem to be growing in popularity, I thought it worth raising the question of how they are conducted.
How did MacColl teach? - in a word, he didn't. When he was approached to take classes in the early sixties he gave it some thought - and turned down the idea. Instead, he adopted a technique which had been used in Theatre Workshop and other theatre companies; that of group participation.
A singer would be asked to choose a number of songs (anything from say three to half-a-dozen) and present them as if they were performing in front of an audience (including introductions, if appropriate). Often the type of audience was specified (regular club attenders, aficionados, totally unfamiliar with traditional song etc). The only criterion was that the songs should be contrasting (in tone speed, pitch, dynamic - whatever).
At the end of the performance there would be a discussion, the starting point being whether the audience was moved or convinced by the singing.
A general discussion would then take place, usually opening with the technical aspects, then touching on the singer's analysis of the song. It was expected that any discussion of the performance was positive, and that the good points of the singing were given as much attention as the weaknesses.
More often than not some sort of a consensus was reached and suggestions would be made as to how the singing could be improved. The aim was that these suggestions were limited to the main problems and did not give a singer too much to be handled in one sitting. Some practical work would be tried on some of the suggestions made
MacColl would usually take no part in this discussion, except to make sure that any points and questions raised in the discussion were clear to everybody. At the end of the evening he would summarise, not necessarily on the specific nights work, but often on the general aspects of singing and songs that may have been relevant to what had been discussed.
MacColl wrote very little on his ideas on singing, so the recordings of these 'soliloquy's' are the only records of his approach (many/most were recorded and are housed at Birmingham Central Library). To say that they were 'inspiring' would be to grossly understate; you often left these sessions walking a few feet above pavement level. They were superb and I still get a buzz from listening to them (we have a full set of 200 odd tapes of them here).
MacColl's main contribution to the work of the Critics group was in the exercises he devised aimed at technical aspects of singing; voice exercises aimed at extending range and producing tones for different types of song; relaxation routines based around breath control etc. Particularly important were his ideas on 'efforts' in singing, based largely around work he had adapted from Laban's theories of movement as applied to dance (his ex wife, Jean Newlove, was a Laban movement teacher).
He also did some work to assist singers to relate to and get into the songs, based on Stanislavski's theatre 'method'.
The method of work adopted was demanding; on the one hand a singer had to be prepared to sit through an analysis (albeit friendly) of their performance, but once you accepted this, it became easy and one of the problems was that a group of more than a dozen plus could not meet the demand of the people who wished to be worked on. These 'group criticism' sessions were only part of the Group's work and certainly did not happen more than once a month, if that.
There was no obligation whatever on the part of the singer, to take up the suggestions made during these sessions, but it was expected that singers should go away and work on their singing and maybe bring one or two of the songs back some time later to see how/if any progress was being made.
The plus side of working like this was that once you sang at one these sessions, you could sing anywhere – they were great for getting rid of inhibitions. One great advantage was that, because the whole group was involved, not just the singer, everybody took something away from the session and the abilities of the group members developed as a whole.
The work done was long term and ongoing; The Critics Group met weekly for nearly ten years and while there were people who joined and left after a time (Gordon McCulloch, Luke Kelly and others for instance) there was a permanent core of singers who were in at the beginning and stayed to the end.
There were problems with the methods of work adopted, but by and large, the pluses far outweigh the minuses, and it worked - sometimes spectacularly.
The whole approach was based on the idea that anybody who got up to sing publicly was bound to generate opinions and criticisms of their singing, so anybody wishing to improve might as well turn those opinions and criticisms to their advantage by listening to them and seeing if they were of valid and of any help.
It more or less guaranteed that nobody involved was able to impose their style/idiosyncrasies, mannerisms on others. This said, MacColl's charisma, as a singer and as an individual could dominate the proceedings, but as long as you went in with your own agenda, you took away what you needed and rejected the dross. As far as I can see this dominance of the individual is one of the greatest dangers to singing at the present time – I sometimes cringe when I hear who has set themselves up as a 'singing teacher'.
It has always struck me as odd that the singing of traditional songs is the only creative pursuit where the exponents consider themselves above criticism.
Sorry this has been so long-winded; but you did ask, and I am trying to sum up ten years of work.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:50 AM

"As far as I can see this dominance of the individual is one of the greatest dangers to singing at the present time – I sometimes cringe when I hear who has set themselves up as a 'singing teacher'."
perhaps you could explain what this remark means, and the necessity of making it.
One criticsm I have heard of MacColls singing, made to me by a highly respected and well known singer who wished to remain anonymous, was this.
These were THAT SINGERS words," I went to see Ewan at a club and he sang a ballad that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, however 2 weeks later, I had the opportunity to see him again, howver this time i was disappointed because his interpretation was EXACTLY THE SAME"
His point was that MacColl interpeted the ballad in EXACTLY the same way, it was well rehearsed but lacked any spontaneity.
That singers point was that the song should be sung differently every time, and the fact that MacColl repeated it in exactly the same way was a criticism, and in my opinion a valid criticism.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps he had worked very hard on his interpretation, and having got it where he wanted, why would he change.
If a critic is not prepared to put his/her name to criticism they would be better staying silent.
John


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Taconicus
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:11 PM

Personally, the idea I find most unwelcome in criticism of folk music is that there is a particular way a song "should be sung." When it comes to folk music (and analogously, most art), there is only "I like it that way" and "I don't prefer it that way" – it's all subjective. Similarly, there are those who like a song sung differently each time, and others who quite prefer it be sung exactly the way they're used to it. It's a matter of preference, nothing more.

Going back to the original question, I agree with those who said that criticism should be given only when asked, and then only in private, and in a constructive way. And if, in private, you want to make a suggestion to a singer about how to make his singing or playing better, it's always possible to talk about techniques without implying that there was anything wrong with his performance.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:22 PM

"His point was that MacColl interpeted the ballad in EXACTLY the same way, it was well rehearsed but lacked any spontaneity"
Simply not the case.
I listened to MacColl From 1962 - he constantly re-worked his songs - not from week-to-week (as your example appears to imply necessary), but until the songs began to get stale - as all repeated songs eventually do.
It was part of the work we did, breathing new life into older items of our repertoire.
When the songs ceased to work entirely he replaced them with other versions.
He actually wrote an article on the subject in one of the early folk magazines using The Bonnie Earl O' Moray as his example - have it archived somewhere.
One of the great flaws in this particular 'Myth' is that one of the requests made of all Singers Club residents (I know this to have been re-iterated regularly as I was a member of the audience committee who helped to run the club) was that residents were requested not to repeat songs over a period of three months so the audiences were constantly being presented with new material - Ewan and Peggy were sticklers at adhering to this in their own performances.
The only exceptions to this practice were the newly composed political pieces on current subjects (miners, Viet Nam, CND etc...)
I don't know where your anonymous quote comes from but it seems to have about the same veracity as the one about the singer stopped mid-song for singing in an American accent.
I really wasn't going to bother doing this but - as you have spent so much time telling us how good and experienced a singer you are, and as you are joining the mob who are still corpse-kicking someone who is unable to defend himself and his ideas because he snuffed it over twenty years ago....
I have just made a point of re-listening to some of your own material on U-tube
I find you to be a proficient singer, no major problems musically, either in handling song tunes or accompaniment - certainly not offensive in any way, but, to my ear, rather uninteresting; the reason being that you treat all the songs I listened to so similarly that it was difficult to distinguish between them - same dynamic, same weight, same tonal delivery... all rather samey, which is what you (via your anonymous informant) seems to be what you are accusing my dead frend and benefactor of.
As you have been as generous as you have been in putting me in my place, I am sure you will take my advice in the spirit is offered - as a desire to help.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 01:21 PM

" john charles, why would he change? if you dont know the answer to that   here is the answer,it should be different every perfomance should be different. "
By only quoting part of what I have said you distort its meaning.
Spending time to hone the performance and then deciding that you must sing it differently each time seems a rather odd way of going about the process, why bother practicing.
You seem happy to put everyone else, right but cry foul when anyone contradicts you or refers to your singing. As a professional surely you might expect your performances to be reviewed more critically than many of us who pursue our art for love not money.
john


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